30 - Unpacking Biblical Sexuality: Is It Pro-Gay?

Speaker 1: 0:04

Oh hello, hey hi, hi, isn't this just the greatest? Oh hello, oh hello, oh hello, oh hello, oh hello. Hey hi, hi. Isn't this just the greatest song ever? It's got upbeat happiness, joy, optimism, hope, joy.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Did I say that already? Are you trying to prepare us for something? Slow Sounds to me like you're trying to butter us up for something.

Speaker 1: 0:46

No, I hear that and I get excited, I think one because it is very upbeat song, but two, I'm glad to be back with you, malcolm. It is a joy for us to do this podcast. Welcome to the Theology and Pieces podcast, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world or somebody is shattered to pieces and we are your host, slim and Malcolm. And today we're going to ask a question that everyone in the world seems to be asking and we are filing in around to it Is the Bible pro-gay?

Speaker 2: 1:16

We're going to talk about sexuality.

Speaker 1: 1:18

Oh yeah, we're going there.

Speaker 2: 1:21

But before we get there, it's going to be a good time for everybody.

Speaker 1: 1:23

Malcolm, are you going to sing for us?

Speaker 2: 1:25

Are you going to sing the sexuality song? If you want to, it'll just happen organically over the course of my conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:36

That's what we'll do Wow, okay, here we go. So you know it's going to be a good podcast. Before we go there, let's catch up. It's been a couple of weeks. What's new in your world, malcolm? Anything new.

Speaker 2: 1:49

I'm just. I got four months to write this book, man, I need to get on it. So I'm sending the introduction to some trusted friends, Getting some feedback Before I launch into well, I mean, I've written more of it than just the introduction, but trying to finish that up in the next few months and then you all will be able to see that in stores spring 2025. Let the revolution begin. Oh yeah, that's exciting.

Speaker 1: 2:23

So a lot of writing as of late for you. I'm trying to know what's been new in my world. I don't know. It's been catching up on all the fun administrative things. As a pastor, you go to seminary and they teach you all of these other things and then most of your time is not spent doing those things.

Speaker 2: 2:45

It's the administrative stuff.

Speaker 1: 2:48

So that feels like that's been a lot of what I've been up to, as well as just getting over some sickness. So I got a little different tinge to my voice this afternoon. But we're going to plug on. We're going to plug on and so just wanted to, but to give us an icebreaker question so we can continue to get to know one another, because people are so desperate to know this mysterious, hooded figure that is Malcolm Foley.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Uh-oh, I'm not hooded. I'm not wearing a hood right now.

Speaker 1: 3:17

That was Batman reference.

Speaker 2: 3:18

Oh.

Speaker 1: 3:19

I mean I got it. Malcolm, if you could have a drink with any historical figure, who would you meet up with and what would you drink?

Speaker 2: 3:33

I'd like to meet up with Malcolm X. Really it would be post-hodge Malcolm X, so I would probably. Our beverage choices would probably be somewhat limited. I don't know if you would drink sweet tea, but we could try. I love it. Just hang out with a brother, learn from a little bit. That seems to be a great choice, given your name. You'd be like, hey man, I was named after you, let's hang out, let's hang out.

Speaker 1: 4:09

Before recording this, I was trying to think of my answer to this question and I was just brainstorming historical figures and I'm like, yeah, I don't know, but I was going that direction as well. I was more of I don't. I don't, I'm not my. My name is Ryan, If you didn't know the real name, and my middle name is James, and I think that was named after James Buster Douglas, a famous boxer.

Speaker 2: 4:36

So I don't necessarily want to meet with him.

Speaker 1: 4:38

Interesting, but anyways, but I do want to. I was thinking it would be interesting for me to now know what I know about American history and just meet with my grandfather and ask him what was life like during these really ugly periods in history, and where were you at oh sorry, on the police force, Not in an accusatory way at all, so hey.

Speaker 2: 5:07

So where were you though? So all this other stuff was going on in your neighborhood, when were you though?

Speaker 1: 5:15

It's kind of where I'm like I just want to know my own family's history. It's like you know what happened there. And I don't think it's going to be bright, so I'm trying to think what drink goes well with that. So I'm guessing more of like an interrogation. I'll give a little black coffee and we'll just go for it.

Speaker 2: 5:31

That is one direction to go.

Speaker 1: 5:32

I took this in a very different direction than I thought that question might go.

Speaker 2: 5:35

I mean, that's what apparently we both. One of us has to go in a direction that we don't expect with these questions.

Speaker 1: 5:43

Well, hey, thank you all for, as you listen to this podcast, for giving it a rating and a review. That truly does help us, and so if, as you're listening, would you go ahead and do that? If you've yet to do that yet, that really does help other people find it well. And if you're listening and you have questions, you can write in at hello at theologyandpiecescom, and we would love to respond to your questions. We want this to be, as much as possible, a two-way form of communication and so, if you will write in, we'd love to answer any questions, things that you are. There are some burning. We do feel that what we're going to get into is going to spur some questions, but before we go there, we do think it's really important time for us to discuss some Terrible tweets oh boy, oh boy, that's right.

Speaker 2: 6:36

Oh boy, we're just going to use this voice the whole time, let's not.

Speaker 1: 6:47

This is our relationship Just two pastors.

Speaker 2: 6:53

Just hanging out, hanging out, these are sound effects.

Speaker 1: 6:59

All right, this is from a pastor friend of mine, zach Lambert, and he writes about 14 inmates die every year in Texas due to excessive heat caused by a lack of air conditioning, and 41 have died already this summer. Incarcerated folks are so hot that they're literally using toilet water to try and cool off. A friend of mine who is currently locked up in described it to me in a recent phone call as hell on earth. Earlier this year, a group of lawmakers attempted to get funding for air conditioning in prisons, but the state senate voted it down, despite Texas having a historic 32.7 billion surplus.

Speaker 2: 7:43

Welcome. What is?

Speaker 1: 7:47

going on.

Speaker 2: 7:50

Matt Martins has about to come out with a book on criminal justice reform and criminal justice. I'm ready yet Probably great. But one of the points that he makes in the book, from what I've seen from the excerpts, is that our commitment to love our neighbors extends to all of our neighbors, which ought to include the imprisoned, especially since we're told to visit people in prison, like that's one of the things that, like Jesus says, the word says supposed to be indicative of the people of God. And yet I think the way that we treat the criminal justice system is fundamentally as a way to remove people from society rather than to rehabilitate them. So we place them particularly in jails and prisons, so that we don't have to think about them.

Speaker 2: 8:42

That's the role that it plays and so, then, which subjects them to just inhuman conditions. It's one aspect of it. Also, it's legally slavery, because it's the exception in the 13th amendment you can have slaves if they've been duly convicted of crime. So, essentially, chattel slavery still exists. It just exists in our prisons, and so like there are a number of. Basically, this is one of the things that precipitates the prison abolition movement, where people are not making the argument. No one should ever be punished for their crimes. But in looking at our current criminal justice system, it is largely punitive rather than restorative, because I don't know how you expect somebody to come out healthier after 20 years of that, or 10 years, or five, or a year of that.

Speaker 1: 9:56

Yeah, you would expect someone to come out angrier. This is how you've been treated, and he writes here-.

Speaker 2: 10:02

That's why recidivism rates are high and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 10:05

Yeah, and he writes here by Texas, so by Texas law you don't have to have AC in these prisons.

Speaker 2: 10:11

Which is absolutely wild.

Speaker 1: 10:13

But by Texas law animal shelters are required to provide supplemental air. Which is absolutely wild To temperatures that rise above 85 degrees, but it's almost 50 degrees hotter for our incarcerated human beings and they get nothing.

Speaker 2: 10:30

You do not forfeit your humanity by committing a crime.

Speaker 1: 10:33

Unreal Like this is not against animal shelters having AC. Praise the Lord, everybody should have AC and that seems like a natural thing. We're like, yes, they should, but prisons.

Speaker 2: 10:46

It's a material need in Texas, especially for these last few months. It's been 105 degrees constantly.

Speaker 1: 10:53

It's been so bad. It's been so bad, and that leads me to the next terrible tweet.

Speaker 2: 10:59

Oh great.

Speaker 1: 11:00

And this is from the Texan grid operator and finds out that the Texas grid operator has paid a crypto miner $31.7 million for reduced energy credits during peak times. Because our Texas grid, right now today, recording in August, I'm sorry, in September 7th here is near total collapse. We are at level two emergency, oh God, Like we. I don't know if everyone knows how bad it is. It could go off just like it did in the snowpocalypse, oh God. And so they're asking everyone to reduce their energy during peak hours from six to nine PM. On top of that just the irony on core another energy company is now the top property taxpayer in McClennon County, our county here in Waco, and they're they top this year's delinquent taxpayer list for penalties applied after a 5.2 million check arrived late. It just like.

Speaker 1: 12:08

Nice, it just feel like you were seen just chaos at every level regarding to the heat and energy right here in Texas and we don't do anything about it. We're not going to pay for prisons that have AC.

Speaker 2: 12:27

That would kill the grid.

Speaker 1: 12:29

Yeah, but we could pump the. We could pump the AC at our, our, our indoor, you know Astros and ranger stadiums and things like that. And then we're going to the people who should be. They're probably raking in millions and millions of dollars, are not even paying their taxes, like what?

Speaker 2: 12:45

Yeah man oh as wild.

Speaker 1: 12:49

So this is a the world's dark message.

Speaker 2: 12:52

Great. Now it's time to talk about sexuality. Oh my God. No, yeah, we should. We should have, just we should have, just we should have, just we should have just.

Speaker 1: 13:04

We should have just. We should have just and did the podcast already. It wasn't ready. It's not, it wasn't ready.

Speaker 2: 13:12

Oh gosh, I told you it was going to happen organically. It was just.

Speaker 1: 13:18

Okay, let's, let's do a transition that works better. Yes, I hope you guys are appreciating how we are going to tackle the the worst of humanity and splice that with random little slivers of humor to make things a little more bearable, a little more enjoyable. That's really what we want to give you all on this podcast. But, yes, today we are going to ask the question is the Bible pro gay? We're going to begin a conversation that everyone seems to be having, and I think our silence on the issue that others are having isn't helpful. Now, primer, before we jump in, this is going to be a little bit different podcast than normal, because usually this is a back and forth, me mostly asking questions to Malcolm unprepared and going back and forth this way. This one I've put a little more thought into and so I hope it doesn't come off as more of a monologue. But, malcolm, you are going to.

Speaker 2: 14:29

I'll interrupt. I'll interrupt.

Speaker 1: 14:32

Shout, throw things as needed, and so that's just. That's kind of the way we're going to be doing things here today.

Speaker 2: 14:42

So the first point of already. I know. So the first thing we'll talk about Amazing. So just in the title we'll discuss both sexual practice and sexual orientation and distinguish the two from one another, and also the hope is, over the course of the next few months, to be really clear about what the scriptures can do and don't speak to.

Speaker 1: 15:17

But that's all I want to say there. Go ahead and maybe you're wondering you know who are you. This is the question I usually ask people like don't you know who I am? To try to like, really pick a fight. But first off, who needs our opinion on this? Do we need another two dudes spouting off on this? And you're right, you may not, but there are amazing resources out there and we will try to point you to them on other experts.

Speaker 1: 15:48

But again, I do think what we are doing here is I believe there's a phrase clarity is kindness, and I totally get that, and it's for that reason alone that I think it's out of a deep, deep love to be kind that we want to at least begin a conversation and to start this topic. I want us to begin with. Jesus offends everybody, everybody, you, me, on many issues. Jesus will challenge you and no one can say Jesus supports me, holy and everything I do and stand for on every topic Like none of us can. Anne Lamont has this great quote and she says you can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do Gosh Like. Isn't that true that you're like no, god hates all the same people. All the same people. I do, of course. Yes, I may God into my own image, and so what I want us to bring as we come to this conversation is just some humility and meaning. Let's all whoever is listening agree to say I could be wrong. Listener, can you say that with me right now? One, two, three, I could be wrong. In fact, that's just such a great phrase.

Speaker 1: 17:07

I try to teach that to my kids all the time, because sometimes, when they're arguing and bickering back and forth about things that they think they know, it happens so much, malcolm, it drives me crazy. It drives me crazy. And they're like no, no, no, I know this, I know this about things that they really don't know anything about. I have to stop them Like you know things, like are these socks yours or his? And they actually don't know. They look like the same sock, right, like I'm like, are you sure those are your socks? Yes, and they're freaking out, but I'm like but they could be your brothers. What if you grabbed the wrong ones? And I get my kids to just say can you just say I could be wrong? And when we do that, it helps us turn down the volume of the conversation considerably.

Speaker 1: 17:59

And now we're actually able to have a conversation and I believe that every single one of us needs to be able to say that, regarding this issue, I could be wrong so that we actually can have a conversation Like am I willing to have Jesus challenge me? Because when I agreed to follow Jesus, I said I will follow you as my Lord and Savior, as my King, my master, unless you ask me to lay this part of my life down. Is that what I said? No? Or I will follow you anywhere, but not there. Like, if I say that, am I really following Jesus as Lord of my life? Absolutely not.

Speaker 2: 18:40

You got something? Yeah, just that reminds me of a Twitter thread from a friend of mine, peter Volk, who makes the claim that a lot of our discussions about sexual ethics are not really about sexual ethics. They're about these are downstream conversations of upstream theological questions, and the three that he names are first, is there a God? Second, does that God know what's best for me better than I do? And third, do we discover that God's best for us by reading the Bible with the historic church? And if one answers yes to each of those three questions, there is a road that that puts us on. But those often, but those are in many ways, at least for me, even as I think about preaching and things like that. Those are some of the base assumptions that take me up to the pulpit in the first place that.

Speaker 2: 19:45

I believe that God exists, that I believe that he knows what's better for me, that he knows what's best for me better than I do, and that I find that out through reading the scriptures with the historic church. And that means that God constantly calls me to do things that I don't want it, that I don't want to do and things that are hard for me to do. And my prayer is because I know what you've done for me, because of who Christ is, because of the work that the Holy Spirit has promised to do with me. Lord, let's work this out. But yeah, I just wanted to throw that in.

Speaker 1: 20:31

Yeah, yeah, matthew 16,. Jesus tells his disciples if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. And so when you follow someone, you are not leading, you are literally just taking steps behind them. Like my kids, when we go on hiking trails, they always want to lead and sometimes I just let them go and I'm like do you actually know the way? And they'll start going down the wrong way, like nope, it's this way, like, and so when you follow a leader, you're just trusting that they will take you to your destination. And when we sign up for this Jesus thing, we are saying I lay down my plans and my preconceived thoughts and I'm going to follow you. And it may not make sense and I think there's a better way, but I'm choosing to follow you. And so let me.

Speaker 1: 21:23

I just want to say what if we begin this conversation with the actual possibility that the Bible says something opposite from the position that I personally take? Is the Bible pro-gay or not? And can you visualize going down the opposite path of something you've held so firm to? And and? And?

Speaker 1: 21:41

One of the best practices I think to help you get there is looking back at where you've been wrong. Is there something you've been wrong about in in years past? And if you can say yes to that question, which I assume is true, then Like, oh, I guess, if you, if you say I, I've not been wrong on anything, then I'm wondering if you fashion got into your own image. But because no one ever comes out of the womb just fully formed, like there are no spiritual Babies coming into this Christian realm fully formed, understanding all of the intricacies of what it means to follow Jesus. No, like we all stumble, we all learn, we all grow, and so I think, for me, most recently is, you know, notably, we changed our view on women in leadership.

Speaker 1: 22:22

And whereas before, when I, when I heard someone say the idea of women in pastoral leadership, elder or whatnot, I could have quoted you first Timothy 2 and I could have said you know, how could you ever go against the very clear commands of scripture? Right, I could have, and I could have made the same argument that some of you guys might be making If you hold to a complementary view. And yet it's actually because of scripture that I changed my view on that. And so for anyone who is, who's not cut up on on the debate of egalitarian commentary, that that it's not a light issue to change your views on, and so, for some, the way you answer that question of who can pastor, preach and teach in your church determines Whether you're faithful to scripture at all, and it tells us more about your commitment to scripture than your personal understanding of the passage.

Speaker 1: 23:13

And that's where I was, that's how I understood the whole thing. I was like, oh, you guys just throw in the Bible out like you know, how could you believe so differently? But if you've ever changed your view on something which we did it I think it allows you the humility to say I was wrong. Therefore, I could be wrong, because I was wrong. Malcolm, you love to change your views on things, right?

Speaker 1: 23:38

Is there been anything that you've changed your views on in the last couple years.

Speaker 2: 23:41

I think it's a Baptism, was one becoming a, becoming a pedo Baptist. I think one of the things that has always guided my change of mind is and also I mean when I read Antonio Gonzalez's God's reign in the end of empires and became. I became convinced that the, in that all of the scriptures are a basically profound anti, anti empire document not not just anti particular empires, but anti the logic of empire.

Speaker 2: 24:08

Yeah, um, yeah, but but I only, I Try to only change my mind when they make more sense of the scriptures. Yeah, so if there is something that I don't understand and there is and someone offers an insight that opens up that, that opens up the text to me in ways that I, in ways that I hadn't experienced before, yeah that's, that's where, that's, that's that, that's the mode by which the Holy Spirit yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Kind of shapes, shapes particularly my, my, my mind. I mean there are a number of ways in which we need to change.

Speaker 1: 24:48

You know, the mind is just one of them. It's it's.

Speaker 2: 24:50

Most often we just continue to do things that the Lord tells us not to do. But it's. But it can be especially difficult to yeah for our, for our minds to change. But that's the that's, that's how the Lord does it, in me anyway.

Speaker 1: 25:04

Yeah, yeah, and so I mean it's like you change your mind. I think at that point you're, you're at least able to go. Okay, I could be wrong, and and so over the last year or so, I was like, you know, I could be wrong on on this, this question, and so I reached out to some of my more affirming pastors and friends for their best arguments and resources, because I really wanted to know, like, in in humility, I could be wrong and maybe I'm missing something, and and and they, these, these folks, gave me some of their best stuff, which I can, we can list in some of the show notes, these people, who I do greatly respect, and and their views on on other things and After reviewing it, like, like to be fair, there are some affirming scholars who will argue the Bible does teach sex is only to be a in a heterosexual marriage, but it's wrong and we should move on from that. You know, if that, if that is your argument, then that it's hard for for us to really engage with you, because I think we see Scripture very differently.

Speaker 1: 26:06

Scripture is our ultimate authority. We would still hold, you know, sola scripture in the sense that it. You know, that's the ultimate authority, and you can go back to episode 16 if you want a deep dive on what we believe about scripture. But there are others who argue from scripture, they're affirming position, and that's what we're gonna wrestle with in a few weeks, and still others are arguing from more of the ethic of of neighbor love, which you know should trump all other Commands that we should be affirming and and we can get into those arguments. But but I think we are just very woefully Discipled in this Conversation what do we?

Speaker 2: 26:44

what do? What do we believe that the Bible says about sexuality slim?

Speaker 1: 26:49

I'm playing my cards there.

Speaker 2: 26:52

You mean? What do we believe?

Speaker 1: 26:54

I Want to, I want to build up to that.

Speaker 1: 26:57

Oh, okay so I did, I did review all of this, but I also I do want to still, in humility, go like I want to learn. I don't see it that way. So I, yeah, put the cards down the table like I don't see it from the affirming position right now, but I, I want to be able to say show me your, your best arguments and and that's what we're gonna look at in in a few weeks but the slim what do you mean before we go there, malcolm?

Speaker 2: 27:25

What do you mean? What do you say when you say I don't see it from the affirmation?

Speaker 1: 27:30

Before we go there. This is I don't want to close the door. Before closing the door, man, we're gonna get clear, all right. I think it's critical for us, as leaders of a church and representatives of the church To people, to just begin with sorrow and Lamento, like I do think, like I deeply grieve the ways the church has contributed to the alienation and hostility and estrangement of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

Speaker 2: 27:59

And also in some ways actively harmed. I mean, this is one of the things that that Greg Johnson will talk about in his wonderful books. Still time to care that that often Church is a place that reduces rates of depression and suicidal ideation for for a lot of people. But there is one population for which more church involvement on average increases Rates of depression and suicidal ideation and that's and that's church, that's church context. Yeah, that is that. That is that is some dark. That is that is some dark statistics.

Speaker 1: 28:39

Yeah, I mean like we just have. I I would say it this way, malcolm may not say it this way I've absolutely blown our witness as a church in this way, like, time and time again, if that, with that stat being there, like the church has not led out with love, with curiosity and comfort, but many times with judgment and dehumanization and hypocrisy. And and the only time we speak in these areas it is that our LGBTQ plus brothers and sisters hear condemnation and like, in an era when not just the Catholic Church but the Baptist, the non-denom, the Presbyterian, every denomination, is having some big reveal of abuse, of sexual abuse, of cover-ups, and the divorce rate in the church Is no different than that outside the church like, like, why in the world would we act like we're the morally superior ones?

Speaker 2: 29:29

so I I Grew with that. To a certain extent, I think it's also the fact that I mean, for example, a lot of churches in America have failed the To to live up to the witness of Christ when it comes to their consideration of wealth.

Speaker 2: 29:43

I think I think there's, you know, I think there are, I think there is what Churches do and then the way that the bride of Christ is is supposed to operate, and so, especially as a, especially as a pastor of a church, you know, I want us to encourage the people of God to live in the way that God has called us to live, and so, so it means being being clear-eyed about the ways that we failed, but also a continued call to faith, like a continued call to faithfulness, yeah, and so and so, so, you know, so, so, so, lamenting particularly the harm, the harm that's been caused, but also, you know, figuring out what it means for us to be must be communities of, of healing.

Speaker 1: 30:32

Yeah, yeah, and, and I just think we have to lead with the humility, because there are leaders who have claimed hurricanes are due to homosexual lust, like, like and so like. We need to have the integrity to pause and say that there are some in our, in our camps, that Are just woefully misrepresenting Christ, and so then why would we start lobbing grenades at others? Like, we have to look at the own log before we start looking at the specs elsewhere. And this is why I think I have rarely, if ever, spoken on this issue, because we as the church have failed to live up to our own standard and ethic that God has called us to. And here's where we are, and this is what I want to say.

Speaker 1: 31:22

I need to repent, because I wasn't even dealing with the log in our own eyes. I just stayed silent and I didn't want to add to this discussion or, in my mind, saying, add to the hurt, and so I just stayed silent, and that is never the answer. I think of this in my relationships with, with, with my wife. Stayed silent in conflict doesn't help the issue like it. So I lament that I haven't even stepped into the conversation around sections and sexual identity, for that and and and that's a failure, and that's where I'm sorry, like these are conversations that are happening in our day all the time. I mean when, when conversations around around George Floyd happen, we said to our, our Presbytery it would be wrong for us to say nothing, and Are on this area where people are always talking about it like it's wrong for us to say nothing, and so I think silence screams something to the watching world and our gay brothers and sisters, and so that's not the way either, and so, again, this is why we are doing this little mini series this fall that we are about to embark upon.

Speaker 1: 32:27

What? What I got growing up Around this training I got was true. Love waits, did you?

Speaker 2: 32:36

did you ever Know? I know of it, but it was never okay one. A big thing for me.

Speaker 1: 32:41

Yes. So there's like this little conference that you go to true love waits to wait till your you know, your wedding day to have sex, and what you did was at the end of the conference you got this purity ring and that that purity ring would remind you to not go all the way. And as kids we all just wondered then okay, so I can go all the way far Can I go?

Speaker 1: 33:00

so you could go all the way up until that one point. And then I do remember there was this one dude from the church it was also on our football team and he went to the true love waits conference and and I saw him like a month later after youth group and he pulls up to Sonic and he's got this. This is the days when, like people are trying to show off their cars and he's got the souped up SUV and he had to fit it out with all these like four LCD screens and On the screens as he's pulled up, the sonic is just porn.

Speaker 1: 33:31

Oh gosh, like while driving gosh Aggressive, I was like, dude, this is weird and wrong and all of that. And I was like, and he's at the moment, you, he's still wearing his his true love, waits ring. And I was like, dude, what are you doing? And he's like I just watch this stuff to give me some ideas on With my, with my girlfriend.

Speaker 2: 33:56

Oh, wait, wait wait your ring.

Speaker 1: 34:00

I thought you were doing that. He's like, oh, I just, I just take it off when, when we have sex. And I was like, oh, as if the the ring was some type of kryptonite to teenage hormones. I was actually surprised that it didn't work, but then later in life I learned the opposite end of the spectrum wasn't great either, because the goal for the church in that era was to keep you pure. Didn't work for this guy, it was to keep you. The goal of this was to keep you a virgin for your wedding day and, as Sheila Grigori has found in her research, the purity cultures goals actually worked because many people who did true love waits were virgins for marriage.

Speaker 2: 34:44

Yay, there was also and this is so Sheila Grigori's book, the great sex rescue best, best, but I, I highly recommend, I've mentioned it, I think I've mentioned it before on this, because whenever I do premarital counseling with a couple, that's the, that's the, that's one of the, that's one of the books that I, that I, that I give them. But the other thing is that that all that that also has so that also happened in the absence of broader sex education and so then, so, so you have higher rates of, of Painful sex in, in these, in these marriages and other like and other things like that, like there, like there are all of these when, when, when, the only when, the only message that people are getting about sexuality up until their marriage is just don't do it until you're married and then everything, everything will work. It's like that's not no, no, no, that's not gonna work.

Speaker 1: 35:32

Be the end goal. Yes, that cannot be the end goal anyway, because it for many virgins in marriage. Sex is difficult, it's hard, it's complicated.

Speaker 2: 35:41

If you didn't know, that people, people in in marriage, sex is difficult yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:47

And for those who don't wait, we teach them silly that and not so silly that that they are now trash Because they had sex before marriage and there's some to be thrown away, and there's all these terrible analogies that she'll, she'll use and talk about, that people have from real life experience that they were a chewed up piece of gum, or there's, like this rose petal analogy that you may have heard about that I don't want to use that to get in people's heads, but just that it you've ruined it all. Um, and I say I'll have to say that the church has wanted to be the spokesman Speaking against the sexual sins of our day, all the while committing all of those same sins and not even developing our people to enjoy the gift of sex. And so I would just say, please, let's take the log out of our own eye. Church Like and if I could just stop there, I would. If we could just get all the churches to stop signing all the Nashville statements, to just stop and pause and and look at ourselves first before policing others, then that might be a win. But even that isn't enough because, as I said earlier, if we just say nothing, it leaves us with an undiscipled view of God's call for our lives, and I don't think that's helpful either. And so, if you hear me and Malcolm say anything, what we're trying to say is church, let's get our house in order, um, and with all the verses calling out our greed, yes, let's, let's start there before talking about the six maybe six verses dealing with homosexual acts, um, but no, instead, we baptize greed in church and we and we marry it to the bible of the american dream. And if you make more, you can build more and can give more. I have the books arguing those things. But the researchers, the research shows the wealthiest people in the world are the stenduous people in the world. And so can we just confess our sins with equal and more passion than calling out the sins of the world there, like, can we just start there.

Speaker 1: 37:41

Matthew seven, this is, this is Jesus. It's the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank or the log in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, let me take the speck out of your own eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye. And so Can we just apply scripture and calling us to do this? Like the reason you look at a plank is because of how dangerous it is to us. You, you should, you should address a giant log in your eye, like we are in spiritual danger if we can't see how desperate our condition is. Like. Do we believe that? Do we actually believe that there is a plank in our own eyes and it's of more vital danger Than the sawdust in our, in our brothers and sisters eyes? If we can get there, then I think we're on the right path. And, and one more reason you listen to this advice is the measure you use. It will be measured unto you.

Speaker 1: 38:45

And so do we really want to go to the Lord on judgment day and say, lord, I want to be judged by my sexual ethic? Uh, the church does not want to do that. No, like we want to say I was 100 pure, I lived in such a way that Jesus would say well done, good and faithful servant. Like, is that how we want to be judged? Absolutely not. And so, for the church, we should repent and lament our failings and then repent for how we've treated the, the affirming crowd. But for the affirming crowd I want to ask can we also come to the conversation with the open mind that I could be wrong? Can we say that? Am I willing to let Jesus challenge me? And and let me be clear, I I'm not assuming you haven't asked that or haven't wrestled with this.

Speaker 1: 39:30

In the scriptures I I realized I was wrong to assume all who had women pastors through the bible out. No, what I found when I actually looked some were amazing scholars Unpacking the bible in a deeper and more beautiful way. As Malcolm said, it made the scriptures come to life for me. It made me see God's love and care for both male and female in a more broader way, and so it made more sense of the scriptures. And so when I said maybe I could be wrong in this issue, as I said before, I asked some of my more affirming friends and pastors to give us the best material, and I think that's why is for us to look into and that we're going to talk about some the the scriptures here in in a few weeks.

Speaker 1: 40:08

Um, but in our day, the only line that anyone universally holds Is is it consensual? And that's. That's an important line to hold. But I want to ask is that the only line that scripture gives us? Yes, there are polyamorous relationships in the bible, but they appear to always be as an example of how unhealthy it is to have more than one spouse. Like we don't baptize Solomon's hundreds of wives as licensed to just go for it. Like and so is there a line, and that's what I want us to to, to ask and look at like sometimes we think of lines as as restrictive, but they also give us guidance in direction, and that's the thing what Malcolm was talking about, like something more beautiful way to live. And I think, in our desire to just let people love whom they love we, I think we place a huge burden On them to have to discern for themselves everything, because if it feels right, then it's right. Is that always true? Like what if I'm married and I feel like I married the wrong person?

Speaker 2: 41:04

Part of it is also part of. It is also an obscuring of the word love when we when we're talking about when we're talking about, when we talk about love, if the if, the if.

Speaker 2: 41:14

What we're talking about is Is is sexuality, which is what this conversation is about. Yeah, there is. There is nowhere in the scriptures where we are told that we can have sex with whoever we want to have sex with. Um, yeah, and and, and there's a as, as I was thinking about this is even though, even when we think about sex, but let's, let's say we're thinking about sexual orientation, um, it is a uh For many, or for some, it's not something that can even be nailed down, but a At least.

Speaker 2: 41:49

It strikes me that a holy sexual orientation would be an orientation such that you are only attracted to your spouse. I don't know if anybody actually experiences that, which is to say, all of our sexualities are broken, and not only that, but in the eschaton in the last days, will no longer marry nor be given in marriage. Sex won't have, and I think of sexual activity it won't have, it will no longer have any purpose because it's supposed to be a shadow, and will have the fullness, and so celibacy is the end goal for all of us, which is an interesting message in a world that tells us if you are not sexually fulfilled, you're essentially less than fully human, which is an interesting thing to tell to Jesus, who is the most human of all of us and never married. And so there are a few things. To go back to the love thing, I mean, I don't want us to use the language of love to obscure what it is that we're really talking about. Yes, love everybody.

Speaker 2: 43:22

We're called to love our neighbor as ourselves, but the Lord does also give us specific ways that we're just doing our sexual behavior and it's difficult for all of us, harder for some than others, but we have a responsibility to walk alongside one another in that journey as we do any other journey.

Speaker 1: 43:46

And I feel like if, amen, and I think, if you are coming at this from the more affirming side, you probably right now are actually thinking of real people who do truly love one another and you are saying but how can that be wrong?

Speaker 2: 44:03

I'm thinking of those people right now.

Speaker 1: 44:05

Right, and I struggle with that as well, right. That, to me, is why this conversation is just so hard, because we're not dealing in hypotheticals and theoreticals. We're talking about real people's lived experience and real, beautiful people, and we want to ask, like, how could it be wrong? And I have friends and family members in this camp, and so I just want us to start this conversation. One big question for both the affirming and the non-affirming side is is the ultimate expression of our freedom fulfilling our sexual desires? Is that, like, the ultimate goal it's just fulfilling our sexual desires? And if that's it, then we're all going to be deeply disappointed, because what if you have a specific sexual desire that your spouse can't provide? What if something happens while married that prevents you from having sex? From now on, like, are you now given a license to divorce? Does God have anything to say? And so our goal over the next couple of weeks is simply to ask you, dear listener, to seek the truth wherever it may be frowned. I mean to go along this journey with us and be willing to be challenged one way or the other.

Speaker 1: 45:24

And Malcolm and I realized that we are no experts in this field, and so, like many other topics on this podcast. We want to bring in some folks who have studied this a bit more and, more importantly, who have lived this, and so here's what you can expect in some upcoming episodes we're going to bring on Nate Collins, who's the founder of Revoice, to come on here in two weeks and we're going to talk about relationships and community and the idol of marriage that our culture just has lifted up in singleness. We're going to talk with Grant Hartley and we're going to investigate those six clobber passages and try to look at that. We're going to speak with Eve how do you say her last name, touchnet Touchnet and talk about, like, what is friendship, and equipping the church for a communal living. We might be able to get to some conversations on gender identity if we can get someone here on this. And then we kind of want to end this with a question and answer, because we know this is going to spur questions.

Speaker 1: 46:28

And so what does all of this mean? Like, how do you, how should we think about this as Christians, but also just as citizens in a pluralistic democracy where people disagree? How do we live as more citizens? Also, how does this play out in the church? And so that's the plan, and I know some of you are like great, finally, you're talking about things I've been wanting you to talk about and others of you are like are you crazy? You just picked up radioactive material and you're juggling it publicly. We don't see it that way. We do think clarity is kindness and for others who are trying to faithfully follow our great God and ask what does it mean to follow God in all of the areas of a life, in our life, we want to invite you on this journey with us, and that's where we're going for now, malcolm. Anything else?

Speaker 2: 47:22

Just that. So I was really thankful to be able to go to Revoice. This was a few years ago. As I was first, I mean, unlike Slim in personality, this is not something I've ever afraid to talk about.

Speaker 1: 47:43

Wait, was that a subtle?

Speaker 2: 47:44

dig. You said it, you confessed, so I'm just affirming your confession. Cool, one of the things that you can. Some have broken down this conversation into four sides Side A affirming folks, side B, side X and side Y. X and Y are for another conversation. So most of the folks, I think, at Revoice would identify as side B, which is fundamentally an understanding that I share that all Christians are called either to celibacy or marriage to a member of the opposite sex. But this is a. It was a conference where I was reminded of how much, basically, how much, how much, how much, how much hell folks in that camp catch from both sides.

Speaker 2: 49:00

You get flack from other members of the LGBTQ community who will tell them look, you're just. You know you're actively suppressing how you were made. You just need to. You know these are the desires that you have you need. The only way for you to be really fulfilled is for you to act on them, and their response is no, like the Lord has called us to steward our sexuality in this way and in obedience to the Lord, we're going to act in this way. And then, on the other side, you get.

Speaker 2: 49:28

You get folks from a number of a number of conservative churches who will attempt to police their language and say, hey, you know, you shouldn't even call yourself, don't even call yourself gay.

Speaker 2: 49:40

To add that as an adjective in front of Christian is to modify it, and you don't want to modify the name of Christian with sin and all this kind of stuff. And instead of their brothers and sisters in Christ walking alongside them, they essentially I mean folks are facing attack from multiple sides. So I'm glad that we'll be able to talk to Nate, to Nate, grant and Eve, but in thinking through, hey, as we walk alongside our brothers and sisters who are seeking to be obedient to Christ in everything that they do, just like me, I mean, this is something that I want to do and as I care for our conversation, for our congregation, that's what I'm calling them to I want us to be able to affirm what the scriptures say in the context of a caring Christian community where people will grow in their love of God and in their love of their neighbors. So I'm looking forward to what we'll learn and discuss over the course of these next few weeks. I hope you will all learn and enjoy along with us.

Speaker 1: 50:53

Oh yes, well, we are looking forward to this. As you heard, I think, a takeaway for today Church, let's get the log out of our own eyes. Let's leave with humility, but let's also let's learn, let's go to the scriptures. That's what we're going to try to invite you on this journey in the next couple of weeks, but then also try to meet with some folks who've been on this journey for a lot longer than us and to learn from them of what it looks like to live this out. So we hope you have questions. Please write those in.

Speaker 1: 51:27

We'll try to answer those as time comes, or we can save them for the end, but send those in at helloatthealgebesiscom. Again, you can help us out by writing a review or giving us a rating. You can find us on Instagram or Twitter, and so just thank you. Thank you, thank you for listening. Continue to encourage us. We hope this has been a helpful podcast, but also this series. We hope this series will be helpful for you as a church. All right, y'all, thanks for jumping in. We'll talk to you in two weeks, see y'all.