When life hands you a revelation at 11, it's hard to know where to go from there. That was the turning point for our guest, Dr. Nate Collins, president and founder of Revoice and author of All But Invisible, when he realized his sexuality and embarked on a journey of self-acceptance in a Christian home. With his background in New Testament studies and his experiences at Moody Bible Institute, Dr. Collins shares his profound insights about the intersection of faith and sexuality.
The church, while a place of sanctuary for many, can sometimes be a place of struggle for the LGBTQ community. As we navigate through this episode, we delve into the challenges faced by the LGBT Christian community, including those in mixed-orientation marriages and the single struggle within the church. Dr. Collins and the guys unpack how the church's idolization of marriage impacts those who identify as LGBTQ and how the definition of 'gay Christianity' can shift the conversation.
As we approach the end of our discussion, we begin to explore the complexities of group formation, identity markers, and how the gospel can provide a better good. We consider how the cultural narratives we're all exposed to shape our perceptions and the role of community and identity within the church. Ultimately, we discuss how our joy is found in our union with Christ and connection with others. Join us for an open conversation about faith, identity, and the church as we learn from Dr. Collins' experiences and insights.
Like, subscribe, rate please!! Then share with a friend!
For more information, you can follow us at
https://www.theologyinpieces.com/
Theology in Pieces on Instagram - @theologyinpieces
Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
check us out at www.mosaicwaco.org or on instagram.
When life hands you a revelation at 11, it's hard to know where to go from there. That was the turning point for our guest, Dr. Nate Collins, president and founder of Revoice and author of All But Invisible, when he realized his sexuality and embarked on a journey of self-acceptance in a Christian home. With his background in New Testament studies and his experiences at Moody Bible Institute, Dr. Collins shares his profound insights about the intersection of faith and sexuality.
The church, while a place of sanctuary for many, can sometimes be a place of struggle for the LGBTQ community. As we navigate through this episode, we delve into the challenges faced by the LGBT Christian community, including those in mixed-orientation marriages and the single struggle within the church. Dr. Collins and the guys unpack how the church's idolization of marriage impacts those who identify as LGBTQ and how the definition of 'gay Christianity' can shift the conversation.
As we approach the end of our discussion, we begin to explore the complexities of group formation, identity markers, and how the gospel can provide a better good. We consider how the cultural narratives we're all exposed to shape our perceptions and the role of community and identity within the church. Ultimately, we discuss how our joy is found in our union with Christ and connection with others. Join us for an open conversation about faith, identity, and the church as we learn from Dr. Collins' experiences and insights.
Like, subscribe, rate please!! Then share with a friend!
For more information, you can follow us at
https://www.theologyinpieces.com/
Theology in Pieces on Instagram - @theologyinpieces
Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
check us out at www.mosaicwaco.org or on instagram.
Oh, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Man, is that time you back all the way for we back. We know you've been patiently Refreshing your podcast feeds. We back saying where are you? But yes, we are recording a day late, but not a dollar short, on this beautiful Friday, the 22nd the year of our Lord, 2023.
Speaker 2:Welcome to theology and pieces podcast, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world or somebody, has shattered Pieces, and we are your host, slim and Malcolm and today we're gonna be talking with Nate Collins, the founder, the, the president of Revoice and author of all but invisible, a leader in the realm of Laying a vision for the gay Christian who still holds a historic biblical sexual ethic. But before we get there, we want to catch up with one another, because me and Malcolm have had to record a podcast to make sure we stay friends.
Speaker 1:I Open our business out on the street like that.
Speaker 2:Gracious, this is how we catch up. Oh man, hey, buddy, we're real friends, let's forget. Let's forget that we're recording a podcast and let's just like catch up but we are recording a podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm good. I'm good, bro, I'm just your marriage, all of my. We're recording a podcast, family's great, I'm just. This is where I just give like book updates, book. I sent a I as I, as I texted you because we're real friends and I give you updates.
Speaker 1:You know, I sent a, sent the, the prologue, after my editor, she and, and she, and she gave her comments and she, but she was also like this this book is gonna be great. That was. That was a very encouraging, very encouraging message. So I'm just, I'm just building the hype train for everybody who listens to this podcast. When it goes up for pre-order, we'll let y'all know. So the revolution, this revolution, will probably be televised.
Speaker 2:Yes, you hear people that are already clamoring for it. We want it, we want it.
Speaker 1:Love it.
Speaker 2:Love it. Well, sweet, looking forward to that, but nothing. Nothing new in the life of the, the Foley household. Well, I'm about to lay a bomb for the, for our dear podcast listeners but this is just you and me talking. So I don't if you know, but I'm getting pretty old. That that is happening and so in two weeks, so by the time we probably record this next podcast, I'm gonna be 40 good gracious, good gracious. It's it's the saddest.
Speaker 1:You're an old, old man, it's the saddest thing in the world Now.
Speaker 2:When I was, when I was 13 years old, I made a lot of smart decisions in life.
Speaker 1:I.
Speaker 2:May have Dabbled in some things that I shouldn't have dabbled in, that Alter your mind, and things like this.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 2:So so I've made some, some maybe not so great decisions, but one of those decisions that I made was hey, when I turn 40, I'm gonna go skydiving, and so I feel like it's my duty to honor my 13 year old self.
Speaker 1:I guess man.
Speaker 2:And so, a week from today, I am jumping out of an airplane All right, going 125 miles per hour towards the ground and Strap to another per human being, just spooting the whole way down.
Speaker 1:Because I can't do this podcast by myself or this church by myself.
Speaker 2:This is what I'm trying to say y'all. This couldn't be our last podcast ever, so like, let's make it worth it. Let's make it worth it. Let's just live it up like this is a life. What's that movie? You know, McGregor, not life is beautiful, but it it's a beautiful. No, but it's a big fish like you see that movie where no. I didn't? The guy saw how he was gonna die, so he just lived his life like fully.
Speaker 2:So I'm just gonna live this week. So we got one week left and there we go. But so that's something that's fun, that's personal. You prayed for that and I'm gonna shift gears 100% and go. Okay, so that was, that was that is. I mean, it's real, I'm looking forward to it, but I'm gonna shift gears 100% and go.
Speaker 2:But there is something I would invite y'all to be praying for is pray, pray for our family, with our son, our middle son, mateo. I've shared some fun things and hilarious things on the podcast with him, but we are struggling with, with with him and with how to love him. And you know he's I think I've shared he's been diagnosed with ADHD, but also Uncertain of what the other diagnosis is. He's, at one point, oppositional defiance disorder and so, anyways, we just daily have Meltdowns that are landmines that we don't know. We stepped on until that happened. So, oh, life is hard. So just pray for us. So I'll give you some personal update, but thank you all for we still. I'm still surprised that anyone still listens to this podcast Malcolm's like, of course.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I'm always surprised that anyone still listens and so just thank you. Thank you so much for doing that and for all of you who've given it a rating Then the last week, thank you. That really does help us out and so it doesn't take long to give it a five star rating or to give it a review that those that really does help others See and find the podcast. So I really appreciate that. But we are in the midst of a series now that I'm sure some of y'all have some questions about, and so would you email those questions at hello at theologyandpiecescom, um, and we would love to kind of take, at the end of the the series, a whole podcast Q&A Off of some of those, those questions that y'all, y'all come up with. So please send those in hello at theologyandpiecescom before we Um jump into our material. As always, we would really love to just have one of our favorite segments the terrible threads. We move into threads.
Speaker 1:yet yeah, I uh, I actually just did my first thread, I think, yesterday, what I know? Well, here's the thing I think I'm gonna, especially if, if twitter starts moving to making me pay, that I'm gonna have to. That's gonna be the nail in the Cop. I'm gonna have to do my. I'm gonna have to start a sub stack.
Speaker 2:It's always about money. With you, malcolm, it is. It's always about money.
Speaker 1:It's always always about money. I'm joking, I'm joking.
Speaker 2:But yeah, but these are still terrible tweets. Um, this is something that I think took the the world by storm last week. Um, this was the Uh Gernar group founder, Tim Gernar tells the financial review property summit workers. We have become arrogant since covet and we've got to kill that attitude. Yeah, and then he goes on to say what?
Speaker 1:does workers need to be reminded that they work for that? They work for their employer, not the other way around? He says there needs to be pain in the system.
Speaker 2:Yes, he says unemployment needs to rise.
Speaker 1:It's like 40 or 50 percent. Yes. Uh, tell us how you really feel. Uber capitalist how did?
Speaker 2:you how did?
Speaker 1:you. How'd that make you feel about? Oh I mean, I mean, this is the way that this is, this is the way that some bosses, bosses think Um it.
Speaker 2:It's just like Because he, he's the victim here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah right, it's the, it, every, it, the, the, the kind of um, the mantra nobody wants to work anymore is something that people have said for centuries Um, it, it, it may not be, no, like it might not be that people don't want to work. It's people don't want to work for you. So maybe, maybe you figure out what it's like to build, to build a, to build a, a workplace in space where, where, where people are are justly compensated, where people have the opportunities to balance work with you know their actual life, because nobody wants their Relationship with their employer to be their entire lives, like, like, there it's. It's not that people don't want to work. I mean, we as human beings were created. We're created to work. We're not gonna stop. We're also not gonna stop working in the new heavens and new earth. It'll be, it'll be joyful and there won't be any thorns and thistles and but, but, yeah, but, but also. I mean you know we're not, we're not looking to be, uh, slaves to an exploitative system. Nobody wants to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean what he's, what are you detailing is just like things have to get so bad that people are so thankful for us.
Speaker 2:For being willing to let them work for us. Um, and what an honor it is and, yes, work is uh, it's, it's, it's an honor to do. Like this is something that we get to do, but like it doesn't have to be for you, like, because people will choose itself, select and they're becoming wise to some of the the greedy capitalism that it's going on here. But that was, that was rough. I mean, I think everyone's just kind of coming out saying, Okay, so you're finally saying out loud what we know Uh, some of these big venture capitalists are uh actually thinking, uh, you just, you just put it out there you want unemployment to go so high so people come so desperate that they'll take your rough, mean, meaningless job.
Speaker 2:So, not great, not great, uh, not the best. The next terrible tweet is really not a terrible tweet at all. Uh, but did you see the the ai created image from the phrase jesus flipping over the? Table Sure did, sure did, oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:This is a artificial, intelligent, created image of jesus flipping over the tables of the temple. And you might expect him, with rage, flipping tables left and right. You know You're driving out the money changers and yet you have jesus doing a amazing back flip over a table and it's just like, like straight out of like two days, we did your turtle type back flip. This was. This was great. It's pretty hilarious. Yeah, I, I love that. That was Send us more of those twitter and what will stay. Oh, maybe I'll think about it, yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't think about it.
Speaker 2:Um, well, before we, before we, we, we get to our guest, um, we, you know, we're talking today as, as pastors, uh, and, and followers of christ. And I think one thing I wanted to make sure I I didn't say last episode, but I wanted to make sure we said this episode is we, we're. I want to distinguish this thought from us, you know, spiritually and and and, and the way we think about this as pastors, as christians, from us, as you know, civilians, like, how should we think about this as citizens in a pluralistic democracy? You know, we're, we're. We're talking about this as pastors, and this is a podcast, is a theology in pieces, and so we're assuming those who are listening are are Listening because they feel like their, their theology has been shattered and there's an assumption that you are a follower christ, but we're also citizens in this country and the state, in the city and civilly. There's a big difference on how I would respond Uh, in those two ways, and so, for example, I was on the board of a local nonprofit which advocates for for kids in foster care, and our goal is to advocate and care for the health and well-being of kids as our first priority, and, as a board member, I championed the direction that we went in and celebrating pride month through our social media and other forms of communication, because there was a disproportionate amount of kids in our care that identified as lgbtq plus, and we know that there is a high rate of self-harm and suicide among those in this area, and so one way to care for their emago day is to have others who identify in this realm Advocate for them, and so we were looking to bring on more gay and lesbian advocates to our to love our children well, and I think for me, that was like just the obvious, the right thing to do, um and so that we as a church should fight tooth and nail for the emago day of all of our lgbtq plus brothers and sisters and for the rights to be protected.
Speaker 2:But that became a.
Speaker 2:It became a debate, a difficult thing for people to do, because I think, on one hand, we could say, well, this is just plain and simple. You know one on one hand of saying plain and simple, fight for the emago day. But we also say, but we also know that how difficult is to also have like a nuanced position in this, in this tension, because we live in a pluralistic democracy and I love that. And so I want us to ask the question of how should I vote? Should we vote? Vote for the protections of rights of our gay brothers and sisters? Yes, but our neighbors don't have to believe the way that I do, and I could still love them unconditionally. And so the only reason we're beginning this conversation is that we are convinced that clarity is kindness, and we're so. We're trying to be clear, we're also trying to be loving, all the while with the awareness and humility that we don't know everything. We still have a lot to learn, and and we as a church need to lead with kindness and lead with love.
Speaker 2:And again I want to say this is we are beginning the conversation a back-and-forth way, and so one way for us to begin that conversation is to invite some friends on here, and we have a friend Waiting for us in the zoom room. And so let's, let's, let's, invite dr Nate Collins on here. Yay, all right, well, welcome, welcome y'all that we, as we said earlier, we are, we are, are joined today, honored today by our guest, dr Nate Collins, who's got his PhD. New testament and president and founder of Revoice, author of all but invisible and I, we pride ourselves and take ourselves very, very serious here at theology and pieces. And so just I'm curious I'm sure no one's asked you this question before, but what, what would be your favorite video game and or cartoon growing up, dr Nate Collins?
Speaker 4:Wow, favorite video game and in or cartoon yeah, or cartoon yeah oh man, I mean I'm a child of the original super sorry, the original Nintendo entertainment system. Yes, and I I Really got into this game called Rai gar. Rai gar Okay. I'm sure it's like I don't know that one. Yeah, really obscure. Yeah, I really got into it. It's a lot of fun Okay. Okay, and then I was going way back. Gummy bears was my gummy bears favorite cartoon yes. They got that guy.
Speaker 2:They just started bouncing around.
Speaker 4:That's right. My self, I know that's amazing.
Speaker 2:That's great, that's great.
Speaker 1:Hey, apparently they did a Rai gar remake. Remake in 2002.
Speaker 4:So yeah it's called.
Speaker 1:so let's see right, it's Rai gar, the legendary adventure, and it was for ps2 nice.
Speaker 2:Yes. I bet. I actually I bet I have the game. So a friend of mine you know did the thing where you can get all every Nintendo game all on like a little 512 megabyte flash drive and you put it in and I was like in that wild that we spent all this money. These like your giant boxes, that it all could fit on the small little.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, a bit of a geek, though, I made a little emulator thing you can just plug into our TV, oh nice, and I think I might have even found the Rai gar, but it was glitchy and wouldn't work.
Speaker 2:Well, we should. We should do a separate podcast all about old-school video video games yeah but I bet you're probably.
Speaker 1:We second half of the podcast.
Speaker 2:We'll go deep in that, but could you start by and introduce yourself, telling our listeners a little about yourself, your background, especially in relation to your work in the LGBTQ plus and faith communities?
Speaker 4:Sure, sure. So Wow, yeah, we're sorry. I Grew up in a Christian home. I've been the son of people.
Speaker 4:My parents have been Christian ministry my entire life my entire life pretty much and there's never a time when I didn't Didn't know that God loved me hmm, and I remember that became real to me when I was 13 for the first time, and Ever since then I've always had this deep-seated sense of God's love for me, but I, I Don't remember loving myself. The reason was because when I was around 11 is when I realized that I was Gay. Obviously was not the word I would have used in 1991. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 4:But I definitely realized I was different. I'd always felt different from other kids, but I was able to put a finger on it at that point and terrified me at the same time also. Oh yeah, it terrified me and I was going back and forth between God, please make me different, let me wake up in the next morning and not be this way, or just trying, I would just ignore it, just put on the back burner and I like it didn't exist.
Speaker 4:Hmm and so, yeah, those were interesting high school years. I also spent my parents were missionaries from when I was 8 to 18. So all of the that, that that experience, but virtually all of it was spent in a third world country.
Speaker 4:Hmm where there were no resources for Christian just about anything and so I was pretty much on my own In figuring it out and I didn't really figure much of any of it out at the time. I came out to my dad when I was 19 and it was a really good conversation. He he didn't say anything. He regretted in terms of the way he responded. There's plenty of things he could have done differently and you know we're pretty close right now and talk through all that. We're good.
Speaker 4:But it wasn't really until I went to college in 2000 I went to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago that I began to be just more open about what that was like for me, those having those desires and you know Moody was a bit of a greenhouse for me in terms of my spiritual growth. A Lot of really good community developed. I was able to be a part of a lot of really good community, had a really solid group of friends that knew me and loved me and didn't treat me any differently. Moody is also where I met Sarah. Were married We've been married for almost 20 years and she was another one of those really important people that knew early on, after we started dating, I came out to her the summer after we started dating and For us it was very much a Conscious decision of obedience to God that you know we both enjoy being around each other, but this obviously is a potential complicating factor, and so let's just continue to walk beside each other as we walk towards God and yeah.
Speaker 4:And see if he continues to draw us closer together or make it clear that we're not supposed to be together, and it turned out to be the former. So that's been another a major part of just how my own understanding of my sexuality has unfolded over the last 20 years or so. Went to seminary at Southern Seminary in Louisville, kentucky, in 2003, finished my MD in 2009, started PhD work in 2010. I came out publicly, so to speak, somewhere around 2006 or 7 I can't ever really remember, because I just got tired of coming out to people, and that was back when I realized that you're never done coming out to people you all like.
Speaker 4:You're always gonna be meeting new people and there's always gonna be people who Um particularly, I'm fairly straight passing, at least when I want to be, and so, yeah, I came out back. Then I figured at some point that this part of my story would be part of just some form of ministry that God would call me to. When I started my PhD work, I thought probably gonna go into academic. I could the academic world, but I'm, through a number of circumstances, just realized that that was not what God had for me or my family, and In 2017, the idea for Revoice Came to mind. Through a number of circumstances that were going on in the evangelical landscape, just became clear to me that that LGBT Christians who were traditionalist in their sexual ethic, I needed a place to belong. Yeah, needed a place where they could gather and encourage each other and be encouraged. Yeah, what was one of?
Speaker 2:those things that prompted that, that.
Speaker 4:Going on in that time. Well, so in 2013, exodus International shut down and the Exis International was Was a community of sort. Well, yeah, it was a community for those of us who were sexual minorities. They just didn't encourage the use of sexual minority language. I didn't didn't encourage the use of Identifiers like gay or lesbian or bi that lots of us find helpful. Yeah. And so it shut down and there's a number of you know, reasons that went into that that I could talk about for another hour. Very interesting.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah but there was nothing that took its place. Yeah, and so in that void there was a, a lot of momentum towards more affirming Perspectives, and so the, the affirming conference in town, qcf back then it was gay Christian network. It in theory made space for traditionalist gay Christians, but in practice maybe only about five percent of the people who would attend would, would, would identify as traditionalist in that sense, and the vast majority of the programming is all was all you know, affirming. Hmm, I'm a bit of a bent. And so that happened on one end and on the other end, sort of the, the, the void that was filled and more traditionalist evangelical spaces Quickly became dominated by Just really unhelpful perspectives.
Speaker 4:And in my opinion, and actually in a lot of people's opinion, yeah, yeah, yeah helpful, unhelpful perspectives on how to make sense of sexuality in terms of Christian doctrine and theology. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a Nashville statement coming out, right then.
Speaker 4:Well, eventually the national statement came out, and that was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. We saw all of these, all of these unhelpful perspectives being codified. Yeah into this. You know, 21st century creed that was being Sort of foisted upon the North American evangelical world and it had some really problematic Parts of it and if you ask the people who wrote it, they intended to exclude folks like us.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I think that.
Speaker 4:And so, hmm, at that point it became very clear that we needed, we needed something, yeah, and so I spent about a month, yeah, just praying, asking friends who had connected with over the years, who were leaders in this space, whether they saw the need and whether I should be the one to sort of Kickstart it.
Speaker 4:My wife got on board fairly immediately, which was a shock because, you know, we were both, both missionary kids and very familiar with the idea of support raising, and she did not want Me to start a nonprofit. That had to be, you know, we had to straight raise support, hmm, but the idea of just doing a conference, so what there's, there was no like at that point. There was no idea that this would be a full-time job or that this would lead to another, like we hoped, but, you know, had no idea, and so she was very on board with, you know, planning a conference, and so she actually went back to work. She'd she's a married and family therapist and had taken a mental health break I don't when we had our third kid and at that point was Very much wanting something like the conference that we were thinking about to happen, and so it would not have happened if she had not been willing to go back to work, and so I could work part-time and plan this thing, and and the July of 2018 came, and it was amazing.
Speaker 4:We had people from 43 states and four countries. The venue was sold out five weeks before the conference and it was just a spirit filled, joyous. I mean, yeah, every single re-voice. The thing I walk away thinking is I mean multiple things, but I just get overwhelmed with the amount of joy I see in the room. Yeah, people just thrilled and happy and relieved to know that there's a place where they can belong and don't have to explain themselves, where both their identity as sexual minorities and their decision to follow the scripture and adhere to attritional sexual I think both of these are values.
Speaker 5:So that's the long answer. That's awesome. Something like what she just asked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. Now how did you and Malcolm meet?
Speaker 4:I'm formally known as Twitter. Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:I was looking back through our DMs because that's how we first started communicating with each other. And then Malcolm actually came to.
Speaker 4:I think it was the first re-voice we had in Dallas was in 2021.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, and we always have.
Speaker 4:It's a majority LGBTQ space and you'll know that as soon as you walk in. But there's always very, very welcoming place for pastors and people in ministry and just want to learn and we have programming for those folks as well. Cool, we frame it as this is an LGBTQ space where others are welcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's always fun to just to be in touch and just to be encouraged by the folks that share, and I had a blast and I talk about I mean I talk about that time, talked about it in sermons and elsewhere, but I mean it was a really it was a really encouraging spot for me. I mean I learned a lot also, was able to make some, able to, I think, make some good connections there, but for me, for me at least it opened my eyes to the fact that, like there are a number of folks particularly in our midst who are facing basically you're catching hell from both sides and to see, I mean for me to see that, to be in those worship spaces, to see folks just deeply I mean deeply committed to Christ and to the scriptures, and just and working out together like what does it mean for us to be obedient to Christ, given the way that the Lord has made us? And so I think before that conference and this was kind of the nature of me and Nate talking on Twitter too I mean I had, I think I had a commitment. I think I had a commitment beforehand, but it was being in that space that at least reminded me, you know, like what?
Speaker 1:You know, why is it the fact that our LGBT brothers and sisters, when they hear themselves referred to in sermons, it's only their only interaction is in a is in a condemnatory way and I'm like, why is that what that I wouldn't want to be in that kind, I wouldn't want to be in that kind of space. Why would we think that anyone would? And so and so and so. Even for me, as I've been thinking through pastoral care and preaching and stuff like that, one of the things that's been important to me is to also think about okay, when I'm thinking through application, I'm thinking about, you know, I'm thinking about okay, how's this gonna hit married folks, single folks, sexual minorities, children like all of those? All of those things are very much at the forefront of my mind now, I think, in a way that they weren't kind of years ago, and part of it was definitely, I think, from being at that conference, learning, figuring out what it means to kind of humbly walk alongside my brothers and sisters.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so thank you, so all that is also just to thank you, Nate, for that conference, but also for your friendship.
Speaker 4:Well, thank you same here.
Speaker 2:But you're also an author of All but Invisible, and that book addresses experiences of LGBTQ plus individuals, kind of, within conservative Christian communities. So what would inspire you to write this book and what do you kind of hope readers will take from it?
Speaker 4:Oh well, I mean gosh. I think it was 2014, I think so. It was after Exodus shut down and as some of these unhelpful perspectives were beginning to percolate through the world, the whole world, I was a PhD student and I thought well, phd's write books and I was at an conference with lots of publishers and I thought, well, I should just walk up and introduce myself and give a pitch and see what happens.
Speaker 4:And I did that with three publishers and Zondervan ended up three months later being the one that extended an offer. And basically I hear that that's just how it doesn't happen, like that very often. So I ended up writing that book in the middle of my dissertation. So I took four months off from writing the dissertation, wow, and wrote the book and there was no overlap. I mean, a lot of times people were able to massage their dissertation and I had one chapter that was able to massage a little bit. Yeah, nice.
Speaker 4:But yeah, the point of the book was to it was not an entry-level book, it was written with people who have already written it, people who have already read a couple books on the topic already, and it was just to try and push the conversation forward in two areas. So first I tried to address just the lack of vision that our current expression of the church in North America has for what life looks like for LGBT people to flourish. So, yeah, there's just, and we can get into that later. And then the second part was looking at what does identity look like for people who have the same sex orientation? And so, yeah, and I have some thoughts about and the way we are created as desiring beings, and what does desire look like and how can we ideologically about desire? Yeah, I mean, it was fun.
Speaker 2:I was struck by that lack of vision section, because I think this is just so helpful because, as Malcolm said, we only think of it when we talk about it. It's in such a negative way, and so this more being like a vision that's lacking, for a compelling call to live a different way, without giving too much of the way from the book because we want people to go buy it. But what would you say, is something that the church is missing here.
Speaker 4:Well, just yeah, the church is not aware about how, not equipped to portray the single life as meaningful and desiring, yes.
Speaker 4:In general and, on top of that, for those of us like myself who are in mixed orientation marriages where one spouse is gay, the other spouse is straight or bi or whatever marriage is about more than sex, and marriage is about more than yeah, than sexual pleasure, and so the fact that the church has not made a compelling case for how single life can be meaningful is something that is really harmful for LGBT people. Like the way I describe it is, straight folks by and large anticipate getting married at some point. I mean, it's not guaranteed, obviously, but there's at least the rational hope that you go up with as a kid in high school, college, that you'll find that someone and then so you're rewind. But I make believe you're 11, and you realize, oh, I, actually I'm not straight. I've got these feelings for the same sex instead of for the opposite sex.
Speaker 4:Some like I mean people are different. I happen to think, oh, it doesn't matter, I can just find the right person and that'll happen. And it does happen for some like that, but for many there's just no desire to even pursue that and that's fine. Like, for some, the idea of even if it's like with an unknown person at that time they just don't know who it would be. The idea of sexual intimacy with the opposite sex is repulsive.
Speaker 4:It's that way that it would be repulsive for a heterosexual to think about same sex. It's just not how we think, and so what that leaves then is that leaves a young gay teenager with the thought that they are going to be alone for the rest of their lives and that that's just how their life will be, and if you look at the way that we, as a society, structure so many parts of daily living, it's all built around a nuclear family. Yeah, mm-hmm, that's the house, yeah. And even more so in the church. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Or perhaps equally so in the church. Yeah. That's not to say that. That's not to say that Go ahead.
Speaker 2:What's that I was gonna say? Would you say the church has a marriage problem in the sense that we've made it into an idol Like this is kind of coming out of the Reformation and where marriage is everything.
Speaker 4:Yeah, very much. So I think I mean it's hard because marriage is wonderful, obviously, right, you know, like it's a mystery, and it points to Christ in the church and it has deep spiritual meaning that God ordained to be part of, you know, to be a picture for what is relationship, what looks like the Christ in the church, and so these are beautiful things but, like all good things, they can be turned into an idol and they can be imbued with significance that was not intended and they can be, yeah, idolized exactly. And so I think you know, without wanting to, without wanting to dishonor the bride of Christ as the beautiful thing that she will end up being, I think we have to be realistic and name the very real aspects of the concrete church here in North America and all of its flaws, and so I think that that would be one of them.
Speaker 1:What do you think are some? So, as you've been doing the work with Revoices especially, what do you think are some common challenges that are faced by LGBT folks, particularly in conservative Christian communities? What are some of those challenges? How can and what might it? Yeah, I mean, and we'll start there, We'll start with the challenges, then we can.
Speaker 4:I mean, I think, just the general sense of not knowing where we belong, where we can belong. Most LGBT Christians are going to be single, like I said, and so there's a sense in which you want to belong to a place, a space that's all your home, but you want other people to belong there too, so that you belong together with somebody. And there's just very little imaginative thought being exercised in that area, and so I think there's lots of ways that we can be creative and provide access to those spaces and create spaces like that, or LGBT Christians, whether it's inviting one, I mean, to be like just to have regular meals with a family on Sunday. And so we have a friend, a dear friend, who comes every Sunday after church for lunch and we say she stays afterwards and prays with my wife, and they talk and like it's a, it's just a very, it's a rhythm that is important to us.
Speaker 4:People. You can have people move in with you or you can, like I have. There's a one of our staff members. His roommate is his committed roommate and they are going to do life together and they're the end of the roommate straight. And the roommate knows that whenever he dates somebody and actually want to go into their personal life, that art, his best friend who roves with him, who's gay, comes with the package and there's not a, there's not a expendability to that closeness.
Speaker 4:In my book I talked about domestic intimacy the sense that there's an intimacy to the doing life day in and day out, in just the mundane domesticity of life, and those things are not really intimate if they're alone. At least it's not shared intimacy and sense. And so there's just a sense of life that is reassuring that it's not accessible in many, many ways, because for a number of reasons I mean yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's also fascinating because the creativity point is something that is especially.
Speaker 1:It especially strikes me because, especially if I'm thinking about whether it's race or nonviolence or any of these kinds of things I mean, one of the failures of at least one of the, I think, historical failures of a number of our churches is basically a failure to kind of see the kingdom of God and for that, basically to see our future and to be inspired by the creativity that that requires of us now, Because Christ has come, like the new order has come.
Speaker 1:It'll be everywhere when Jesus comes back, but there are tastes of that that we can get now, All that's to say. One of the things that was also encouraging for me at Revoice was also to see hey look, there are all these things that I have placed in the marriage bucket that are actually just in the human intimacy bucket, Things that I have said, oh, that is only for married folks, and I'm like, wait a minute, where did I get that idea? That may have been something that I was socialized into, but there's no biblical warrant for me to believe that Socialize into thinking that romance is the highest order of intimacy.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and that's the only way to put your romance with a single life partner that we're married to. Yeah. I interrupted you, but that's my thing.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, that's right, and for me it was also recognizing. Wait, I've never felt like I had to think beyond that. And so to see, particularly my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters who are like, no, like we've, obviously we've had to think of these ways because we're like, okay, there is kind of one element of this when we're talking about sexual activity that we're not going to engage with, but there's so much more to the human experience and also to human intimacy than that, and so I think of the fact that and this goes into the imagination thing that actually it's reduced the creativity of married couples too, even in thinking about their own intimacy, where sex takes this pedestal and when there are so many other, when there are, when there are also a number of other levels of intimacy that ought to be invested in, perhaps even more so.
Speaker 4:And it takes creativity and imagination to think through these things. And one of the like, one of the reasons it's really rewarding to see straight folks come to the conference is they begin to realize, oh wow, my gay, my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters are doing this hard work themselves. I need to start doing this hard work. I need to learn what it looks like for me to carry that burden, not just of providing those access to those sorts of structures, but to think through for myself what I can do in that way as a form of helping carry a burden.
Speaker 1:And this is the fundamental. I mean, I really do think that the fundamental Christian call is a call to solidarity. It's the image, I mean the image of the body. Paul uses that image for a particular reason. There is mutual dependence and interdependence in a body where, if a you know, if a hand, if my hand is hurting, I am hurting.
Speaker 2:He says this I don't know what page here because I have only the Kindle version here, but he's got. He says this in your book. You're referring to the first Corinthians 12 passage where I cannot say to the hand, I don't need you. And you end that passage saying it's impossible to read this text with gay people in mind and not glimpse a tragedy unfolding right in front of our eyes. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah yeah, so good.
Speaker 2:No, I think I agree with you, malcolm. I mean, I was just the solidarity aspect that seems to be being driven home, and in every sphere of life, whether whatever we're talking about, but this is, in particular, a glaring kind of red light that the church needs to look at. Yeah, and because I think that's go ahead.
Speaker 4:There are many margins.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yes, people on them.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think it's for us to think through how can singleness not just be a viable or not just a viable option, but a desirable one for people? I think that's where we have, as a church, move into and create those spaces, as you talked about having people over for dinner or living in your home and things like this, and I know you give some more examples on the book. That's good. There's been some terms that we've used here and I know I love I love talking with folks kind of defining some of these things. Sure, can you explain the concept of side B Christianity and how it relates to the experiences of the LGBTQ plus Christians?
Speaker 4:Sure, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Is it? Is there one definition for? It. Absolutely not.
Speaker 4:And though is that I've never well, at least I originally. Maybe this might be the first time, but I've I've only ever heard the phrase side B Christianity or gay Christianity, side B gay Christianity used by people who take issue with any language. Mm, hmm. Polemical term. Did you say that? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, well, yeah, it's. In my experience it's been wielded as a polemical term to sort of stack the way the scales against, against us from the beginning, because we're not out to like create our own subset of Christianity. There might be another way of interpreting that phrase, but they're like gay Christianity side B. Gay Christianity is no different from just Orthodox Christianity the way we think about it. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But I think what, what's being, what's what they're trying to get at is just our use of the term gay or lesbian or all these other sexual identity language markers, and that's one of the things that I try and address in the third part of my book on identity and look at a lot of work that's been done in the field of social, social identity theory and social psychology, the way that groups function, the way that categories become salient in a particular context and groups around those categories formulate, and then eventually identity markers become meaningful, the sort of yeah indicate that that person is a member of that particular group.
Speaker 4:And so a lot of these things are just sociological in nature, and so what I try and do is is recover a sociological use of the term gay, and in that sense, sociologically gay does not mean anything having to do with sex, per say, or in terms of like whether or not I morally approving of gay sex, and so I realize I'm going all over the place here, trying to figure out where to get gay. Christianity just means that there are gay people who can be Christian Christians. I would say it's the same thing would take for a straight Christianity, like oh yeah, we can talk about what Christianity looks like for straight people.
Speaker 4:Yeah yeah, yeah. That's the default that we typically typically see, and so, for that reason, even more important that we talk about what Christianity looks like for gay people. Because, because we exist and we have a unique set of experiences that help us, that make us view life through different lens, and yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this, I mean this is one of those subjects that I know you know a lot about. Because of the heightened tension around just those terms, we came we've come out of a denomination, the PCA, that does not like that term. As you, as you very well, very well know.
Speaker 4:What would you say? Like people like you know, specifically side B, like my friend Greg, he likes to say that there is so much variety among those who would call themselves side B. Really, the only thing that holds us all together is we're all trying not to have gay sex. That's the only thing that, as you can say, is true of all side B people. What they mean by side B, why they're side B, what scripture they hold, what they think about sanctification these are all things that are. You know, there's vast differences across the quote side B world. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Oh, I don't like the side language. I don't like the way it pits side people against each other, even side A. I think they're wrong and I think side A theology is spiritually damaging and dangerous. But I don't want to pit them as the enemy Ultimately. I want to woo them with a better, a better good. What I believe with their deciding is not a good, and I want to woo them with a better good. That's actually biblical and beautiful because of that, and so a better good.
Speaker 2:That's so good.
Speaker 1:Which is like.
Speaker 2:I love that phrase a better good. I love that.
Speaker 1:And that's, and that's very much. I mean, I think that's that's just how the gospel, that's how the gospel functions. Jesus presents himself as, as as life, even even then, I mean, you know, I, so I, I, I have, I, I have a heresy hunter background. So so I back in back in back in my freshman year of undergrad this is when my, when my wife and I met, but she didn't, she didn't like me when we first met, because I was, I was almost entirely like, I was almost entirely graceless and so, and so I was, I mean like, it was like. I think it was the kind of thing where, like my fellow students, they, they knew, they knew, they knew that I was Christian and like and it wasn't necessarily like a good thing that's.
Speaker 1:It was basically that kind of like I had that kind of that, that kind of personality and it was. But but I think part of it was, you know, in my mind I I had spent all like a lot of my, a lot of my faith in high school was kind of forged in in conflict, and so I got really I got really into the like, apologetic mode, specifically in the mode of like I'm going to, like I'm going to argue better, than I'm going to argue better than you wear down your you know kind of where, where you where, where you down into my, into my position. One of the one of the things that has especially been impressed on me over the last few years is no like, actually like. The picture of the kingdom of God is actually just a flooringly beautiful picture. You know what, what Christ has done and is doing is just amazing and and and and. We have opportunities to build communities that bear witness to that amazingness that then people see and are invited into. We're just like repent and believe and you can get in on this Like.
Speaker 1:That's, that's the posture I think. I think that's the that's. That's the posture that we need to cultivate, rather than going out to be when we're like, hey, what you're doing is terrible, you're terrible, what you're doing is terrible. Do the right thing. That's not right Exactly. Or we'd be like, hey, I want to. I want to show you, I want to show you something and what we and what and what and what and what we show them is what is, what is what life, flourishing by the power of the Holy Spirit, can look like, which is something that looks. I mean, it looks socially different, politically different, economically different. All these like, like all these, all these things Just now, like that's just, that's just my picture of the gospel now, which is a way that I think it's. It's changed over the course of the past, you know, 10, 12 years or whatever, but part of that is also, you know, a posture, a posture change.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so yeah, that's I mean. It's been. I would say that's been my journey over the last five years since starting Revoices. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Focusing on giving as much energy as possible to what it, to what it takes to present the good and the good being the community that we, that we that we foster the kinds of life giving conversations that can take place and connections that can take place, and anybody who goes to the conference will see that and that and can behold that. And then you know, as we've grown over the years and have local chapters and things like that, those are beautiful things as well, and so putting all of our energy energy into that instead of into arguing and fighting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, we'll fight if the fight comes to us, but we gotta do. We're still able to avoid it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, not, not the. Do you ever question not? Do you ever? Are you ever tempted? But are? Do you ever question the traditional sexual ethic? As you've gone through these, I'm just, you know, like any any type of reformation or any type of discipleship, as you grow and you go, let me rethink this. So for us, we had rethink, rethink. You know, women in ministry and things like this Sure, is there anything like that that's ever happened for you, then or now, or why, why not?
Speaker 4:Um, yeah, I feel kind of sheepish. I have not ever gone through a serious phase or period of like you know. I really need to be more sure about this. There was a period when I was just curious about what people said. The Bible said and so.
Speaker 4:I was. You know pretty, I read pretty widely about about the you know in the literature about difficult sexual ethics and you know the various interpretations of texts and things like that. Yeah, but it wasn't from a perspective of, of a growing doubt or a significant seedbed of doubt. And so I'm. Someone might say, well then you were not really objective and I'm like, well, I guilty, I guess. I just have not.
Speaker 4:You know, and I've I've walked with people who have gone through that journey of just you know, trying to to know for sure what they believe, and I think, increasingly, it's a very common part of very common part of of a lot of Christians experience today, and you know, I think that, yeah, it's just, it's a very sobering process to go through, and so I want to give a lot of space, provide a lot of grace and be as accessible as possible. A lot of times, what I've seen is people just don't know that they can flourish and they're just wanting to find some way that they actually flourish. And.
Speaker 4:I mean, that's just. It's so sad to me that that's the case, because it's, it's just. Yeah, if the church culture were different, if church culture hadn't been been taken along by the cultural lies that we see in in our culture at large the culture, the lie that that, to be fulfilled, you have to be able to express yourself sexually. That's a cultural ideal that the church has, has repeated and embodied, and that and the ideal that the individual autonomy is is king. We, to the extent that we have. Well, the church has a discipleship problem, accurate.
Speaker 1:So we haven't.
Speaker 4:We haven't, we haven't instilled the ideal that we are not our own that we belong to God, and so that means that the God gets to say what's best for us. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's excellent. That gives us so. So then. So then, two, two questions that are back to back, because we've you've just named a few of them. What are these?
Speaker 1:You know what, as you, as you think about, kind of what we've been talking about, what are those? What are those cultural narratives that we've become, that we've become captive to, if there, if there are any in, in, in, in addition to those ones that you, that's, you've just that, you've just named? And then how can we I mean, this is, this is one of, I think, the fundamental questions, especially of our, for our podcast over the course of the next month. What does it look like for us to be, to use the language of, of allies and advocates in this, in this, in this space? So, like, what would it mean for you know, for me and Slim to come alongside, to come alongside you, but also just, but also in in, in thinking about this, this, this church culture, that I, that, that you're, that you're right, if we don't, if we don't intentionally resist these things, these are the kinds of things that we're going to continue to perpetuate.
Speaker 4:They're already. They're already embedded, Right yeah.
Speaker 1:And so so, as you, as you think about kind of top two, top three, what are the like? What are the like, what are the narratives that we need to be, that we that we need to really make sure that we're dispelling on a regular, on a regular basis?
Speaker 4:Yeah, the lies take different forms. I think I've already spelled some out, but I'll, I'll, I'll put a different spin on it. Yeah, the lie that marriage, yeah, the delight of marriage is better than friendship, or more meaningful or more. Yeah, you can live without sex. You can't live without intimacy, and so having intimate friendships in addition to a spouse is necessary, because one person can't provide all of your emotional needs for intimacy. But the way that we regard marriage, I think, implicitly cuts us off from experiencing intimacy with friends in friendship, or at least in prioritizing friendship as high as it should. The idea that it would be OK in itself to, for example, to double your income by moving to a better job halfway across the country and leave a thriving support network of friends just because the job pays more. I don't know how often that scenario happens.
Speaker 2:No, one blinks an eye. Oh, it happens often.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's there, no one would blink an eye. In reality, those relationships are priceless. Yeah, or I get, and I'm sure you too can relate the older we get, the more we realize how rare life-giving, safe, intimate friendships are but how necessary they are.
Speaker 4:And so just this lie that romance and that romantic intimacy is the highest form and that intimacy and friendship can't. I mean you could even say that romance gets the credit for all the intimacy. There are aspects of romantic, the way we think of romantic love, that aren't necessarily purely for a couple the feeling of knowing that you're special to somebody. That gets associated with romance. But I want to reclaim that for friendship. Why is it bad to want to feel special to somebody and to more than one person who decides you're special?
Speaker 4:to somebody else. So yeah, that's one thing. What would it look like to have a sermon series on friendship? Instead of a sermon series on marriage yes, or to structure an entire season of programming for your church around friendship instead of around something that centers the nuclear family. Yeah, I could go on. I mean practically that's really good.
Speaker 1:Well, and also as a practical thing. So I'll think about, I'll make a pastoral care confession. One of the things that I will regularly ask married couples obviously is how's your marriage? But one of the things that ought to actually suffuse all of my pastoral care conversations are how are your friendships? Because that's I mean in thinking of how much they shape. I mean I think of how much my friendships have shaped me. I mean like I wouldn't leave Waco for any less than $15 million, but like I mean you know, but there is a price and he's put it out there.
Speaker 2:For anyone listening Doesn't mean he's wondering.
Speaker 4:Well, if you get $15 million if you can move your friends with you. Exactly, right, see, exactly.
Speaker 1:That's how I priced it out, by the way. That's just those are travel expenses for my friends. But yeah, but in thinking of you know, even in thinking about you know, just in thinking about how we walk this, how we walk the road of sanctification it's not a it is an individual road, but it's also a communal road that we actually need one another to walk down that road.
Speaker 4:And gay people in our churches have a uniquely acute experience of this need. But the solution to this need is essential for straight people as well. So we're not talking about some special thing that gay people need. We're talking about the some special need that gay people feel more acutely but is essential to everybody being able to thrive in the faith.
Speaker 2:And as you've recounted, others have recounted. They have that acute need for it, and in a time you know, years passed when exes international was everything, the direction was.
Speaker 4:It was bad and the ugly Right.
Speaker 2:It was just like let's fix this versus we just not even treating the actual root of it.
Speaker 1:As an eldership we're reading through. Still time to care. So it's and that's been, that's been. That's been really good. It's been really good for us as a leadership too.
Speaker 3:So there's one, there's one, I know there's another one, that's good.
Speaker 1:There's another one besides marriage is better than marriage, the lie that marriage is better than friendship. You want to give us one. Want to give us one more that we can.
Speaker 4:I mean, a lot of them just seem to be related to that. I mean the well, yeah, so the lie that you can't express your, I said I think I already said it before but the idea that the pinnacle of self expression is sexual, that there's something missing to the question of who am I if I'm not able to express myself sexually. And that's more implicit in the church and it's just in the sense of, you know, the focus that gets put on marriage as the sign image of maturity. You know, who am I? Well, if I'm not married, well, I'm. I'm number of things. Well, one of the things is I'm an immature Christian. So there's a, there's a question mark next to my Christian maturity. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And you know, I think that who we are can be answered irrespective of our marital status, irrespective of our sexual activity, and, ultimately, who we are and who God created us to be and where we find our deepest sense of joy. Deepest sense of joy is in our union with Christ, our union with the body and our connection with other other members of the family of God. I don't know if this might be related, but just the set, the reality that spiritual family is thicker than physical family, that who I am, that I can answer the question who I am in a very deeply meaningful sense, and the most meaningful sense, by saying I am a member of the family of God, my child of God has been united to Christ and in that I have a family that is more yeah, that is more real to me than my, my physical family. Those are deep, rich truths that again have nothing to do with whether I'm sexually active. Yeah, so. Much more meaningful than than than that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's, that's great.
Speaker 4:There's your second that's good.
Speaker 2:I mean I think it intertwined in a lot of those answers was was also kind of a sec like I've you asked like four questions though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes for one of those questions was how we can be better, become better allies and advocates. And I think, kind of, if we're hearing these lies, you know, speak truth to it, and before you even talked about having a sermon series on friendship first, just marriage and so. But if there's anything else that you would if you were to speak to the American church on how to, to put forth the what did you say, the better good.
Speaker 4:Better, good yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what would you say?
Speaker 4:Um, yeah, completely yeah, I think that's great, and do you see it for yourself this year yesterday? I mean there's, I really think a lot of it boils down to friendship. Yeah, and just you know, jesus calls us his friends and we are to be each other's friends and there just needs to be a lot more creative thinking and energy, I think, and to holding that out as a good that is vastly underutilized in the life of the average Christian. I think, yeah, and I think it would make pastors lives easier, because if the body's caring for itself, they're not expecting the paid guy to do it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:See, this is why I love this Self-serving Make my job easier. Come on yeah.
Speaker 3:But we also know how unhealthy that is if we're like heading on one other person.
Speaker 4:There's tension there too, because you know as, yeah, as pastors, yes, you're in spiritual authority over the flock and you're, you're attached with caring for it, but you need friends. Right, you're new. Right, and you need friends from your flock, from within your flock, when you're Jewish, and so I didn't say the things were easy or not not without nuance or or a complication. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll give you a chance to brag if you have a couple more minutes. Is there anything you? You know Revoice aims to foster conversations and support networks. Any success stories or positive outcomes or experiences you've seen that have come out of Revoice community oh, all the time.
Speaker 4:I mean I mean, oh, it's just, it's the most rewarding work I could ever imagine doing. Seeing people for the first time step in a church and not not wonder whether they're going to have an anxiety attack, being able to, to see, seeing people find hope and know that, that they're not alone and, for the first time, know that they're not alone. So many people think I'm the only one or there might be a few other people, but to show up in a room and see hundreds of people and like it's just just a really breathtaking experience for a lot of people. I mean, yeah, without. Yeah, we have testimonials on our website, but like, without going into detail, and then like, yeah, it's just, you know, people seeing people, seeing people not have suicidal thoughts anymore, and multiple, like not just one, but like just that's a pattern. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:It's an amazing, amazing thing. And then you know, as you know, over the past couple of years we've grown from not just a conference to having local chapters around the country. So we partner with churches because we don't want to be we're not a church replacement and we don't position ourselves to be that way. We only exist because we want the church to be better and so, until the church is better, there are people that need places like Revoice. But we always, in our local chapters, we try and partner with local churches and at least with pastors in the area so that we can have places to steer people towards. But it's just been exciting to see, to see the vision for the kind of Christian life that we're trying to imagine Now, just for gay people. Look for the church in large. We just wrapped up, we just did a one day intensive. So we have a church cohort program where we will walk alongside the leadership of a group of pastors for a year, once a month over a webinar. And we just got done doing an intensive with 20 leaders of a major denomination to begin looking at what it would look like for their denomination to put these things into practice. And it's just inspiring and amazing to see so many people actually experience Christianity as life giving and not just know that they have to believe it is, but to see it and experience it. That's amazing. Just a source of life For gay people, uniquely. It's been.
Speaker 4:All we've heard is no, no, you can't do this. No, you can't do that. No, this is not for you, this is for these people, and it's only so. You can only hear that for so long before you just begin to believe that there's something bad about you that is just irreparable. But to actually see people realize no, that's not true. I'm beautiful on the side of God and I have dignity and God wants me to flourish in community, and I do not solely the community. By being there, I enhance it. So it's just beautiful to see that happen. So good, that's so good.
Speaker 2:Wow, I mean I love that. Thank you so much for your work, your leadership, your courage. What are you working on now? What's coming up for you personally for Revoise? Any books or projects we should be on lookout for?
Speaker 4:Oh man, yeah, but we haven't announced the conference yet for next summer, but it's going to be soon, so, depending on when this gets released, we might have already announced it. But we're excited about the things that are being planned for next year's conference. We're actually also in the middle of an executive director search. We've had some very generous donors and partners who are just wanting to see our team grow and develop and are investing in that. It's great, and so we're able to shift some things around and put people in roles where they'll thrive more. But that doesn't mean we're looking for an executive director, and that's exciting because it's a nationwide search and I have no idea who the person could be.
Speaker 1:I have an idea.
Speaker 4:That's great, and so that's exciting because there really is the potential for some really really strong and exciting growth, just with the added capacity of more staff. And there is another book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh snap.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I've been contracted by Zonervan. They have a series called Biblical Theology for Life. Okay. It's basically a Biblical Theology on Sexuality is what I'll be writing, Solid, what I am writing. I should say I have been writing it. That's great. I will be completing in the next year.
Speaker 1:Okay, when's your, when's your due date?
Speaker 4:September 1st next year Okay. Yeah, solid, but it's a. It's a. It's a Biblical Theology of Sexuality in general. It's not specifically aimed at LGBT issues or questions or experiences. There'll be a chapter on that at the end. Yeah, in the section on you know, relevance for today, but it's basically. Yeah, it's basically addressing the problem that when we tend to think of, when we think of, sexuality, we tend to think straight about ethics.
Speaker 4:What should I do? And we don't think about ontology or what does the Bible say about sexuality? What does it mean? So that's what I'll be trying to answer Solid so.
Speaker 2:Definitely more theological. I love that, that's good.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm a New Testament guy, but at heart. I'm a Systematics person. Nice, I feel like you know what I really should force myself to to be more grounded in the text. That's great.
Speaker 2:That's great Well for our people who want to learn more. Follow you. Sounds like you're on Twitter.
Speaker 1:For now.
Speaker 4:Not often.
Speaker 2:Where, where, where could they find you?
Speaker 4:I say offline.
Speaker 2:So they can find me at nadeveryvoiceorg. Okay, okay there you go? Yeah, I'm happy to connect with anybody.
Speaker 4:I don't point people to other resources, but I tend to stay away from social media. I mean I don't always successful, but that's a healthier lifestyle, for sure.
Speaker 1:That's not bad.
Speaker 2:Well, they, I we're truly thankful for your time. We know you're doing a lot and very busy so thank you for what you can do. You know, just having this conversation, what we try to do at our, our podcasts here and trying to rebuild some people's theology as you talk about the better good, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Thanks Nate.
Speaker 4:You bet, I'll see you with you guys, I mean see you Wow.
Speaker 2:That was so good Nate's great.
Speaker 1:Nate is great Nate's great, I mean all of our guests are going to be all of our guests are going to be great. It's great.
Speaker 2:I still don't know how we got him on our podcast.
Speaker 1:Bro, I got this.
Speaker 2:No, it's great.
Speaker 1:My friends I have my friends out here.
Speaker 4:I love it.
Speaker 2:I love it. I just he, he does, as we just heard there so much for the community, for our I mean the church at large, and I just I'm honored that he got to come on here. But y'all we do, as Malcolm just said, all of our guests next week, or I guess in two weeks when we record again, we get to bring on another guest to help us continue to have these conversations, and the next week's going to be a little bit different though. So this one we talked a little bit more about kind of what it looks like to to actually have a beautiful vision for the church and what is it? You know, the the, the better, good and all that. Next time we're going to bring on Grant Hartley and we are going to, we're going to really dissect these, these six clobber passages, and really ask the question what does the Bible actually say? And try to really dissect like the best arguments from both the affirming and non-affirming side.
Speaker 2:And so I personally needed to do a deep dive in that, and I'm sure there are many of y'all that that need that as well, and so really hope that's going to be helpful for you. But if you know, as always, what we try to say here is you know, send in those questions. We're, you know, at the end we're going to have a nice little Q&A podcast. So as any of these guests come on and they say things that you know, you're like, oh, what about that? Or I want to learn more about that, Please send those questions at hillothiologypiecescom. And, as always, the best way to support this work is to give a rating and a review. So if you found any of it helpful, would you be willing to give it five stars, Give it a review.
Speaker 1:Five stars, five stars.
Speaker 2:And then share it with somebody, especially this topic that everyone's talking about. Would you send this over to someone and maybe they can find some hope and healing and some of the beautiful stuff that you know Nate is doing there, and then maybe check out Revoice and then we'll talk about it before the when that conference is coming. So, malcolm, a delight Always. Yeah, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next in two weeks. See you next time.