Are you thirsting for a deeper understanding on complex theological issues? Theology in Pieces tries to give you the tools to see the best arguments on any given theological issue. Whether it be deeper commitments like baptism - who should it be for? Or lighter things like terrible theological takes from the Texas Railroad Commissioner and Baal Worship. Today's episode hits on a variety of issues.
Should baptism be for Believers only? Or For you and your children? Acts 2:39 "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
But we also try to balance all that heavy lifting with a good bit of absurdity. We detour into the vibrant era of the '90s, solve the mystery of who stole Slim's water bottle and talk about snake handling.
There are also some truly terrible/heinous tweets.
And yet God is good... All the time. We hope you enjoy.
Like, subscribe, rate please!! Then share with a friend!
For more information, you can follow us at
https://www.theologyinpieces.com/
Theology in Pieces on Instagram - @theologyinpieces
Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
check us out at www.mosaicwaco.org or on instagram.
Are you thirsting for a deeper understanding on complex theological issues? Theology in Pieces tries to give you the tools to see the best arguments on any given theological issue. Whether it be deeper commitments like baptism - who should it be for? Or lighter things like terrible theological takes from the Texas Railroad Commissioner and Baal Worship. Today's episode hits on a variety of issues.
Should baptism be for Believers only? Or For you and your children? Acts 2:39 "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
But we also try to balance all that heavy lifting with a good bit of absurdity. We detour into the vibrant era of the '90s, solve the mystery of who stole Slim's water bottle and talk about snake handling.
There are also some truly terrible/heinous tweets.
And yet God is good... All the time. We hope you enjoy.
Like, subscribe, rate please!! Then share with a friend!
For more information, you can follow us at
https://www.theologyinpieces.com/
Theology in Pieces on Instagram - @theologyinpieces
Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
check us out at www.mosaicwaco.org or on instagram.
Every time the live studio audience it's pretty great. We'll have to be joining us. It's pretty great. These people out here cannot get enough. What is up?
Speaker 3:Hey y'all, sorry, we were away for a little while.
Speaker 1:Our theology and pieces. Dear listeners, is there a way to describe our listeners like a? You know, like the theology pieces, fan boys and like trend? They're not all boys. And fan gals. Let's try to think of a cool way to describe it in a moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's something you got to think about before you say it.
Speaker 1:Sorry, all right, let's cut this and restart the podcast.
Speaker 3:We're taking, we're taking, we're taking a request in the, in our, in our emails what, what, what, what? You all want to be referred to as.
Speaker 1:So there's Swifties, we need 50. So it's going to get slow once again. We'll workshop it.
Speaker 3:Workshop it.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, great. Well, welcome to the theology pieces podcast, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world or somebody has shattered pieces and we are your host, slim and.
Speaker 3:Malcolm.
Speaker 1:And today we kind of have a hodgepodge of different topics because we are in the the throws, in the thick of a wonderful conversation, interviewing different, different folks surrounding the topic of LGBTQ plus and relationship to Bible and our and the church and friendships and relationships and all of that, and we just been having some scheduling things going on and so hopefully next week we will be able to meet with our next guest, but tell them we just want to check in, check in and we there's other things for us to ponder on life.
Speaker 3:There's plenty going on in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like globally, is that?
Speaker 3:oh, I'll just say it's just the world in general. Let's see, you know life and add in the world.
Speaker 1:All right, we're ready for Slim and Malcolm's hot takes on Israel and Palestine Hot takes. No, my, my hot take is I don't know enough to say anything, so I keep my mouth shut, cause I feel like there's just there, there's a, there's a complicated thing here. However, I think all war is evil and I think I think this is uh, interesting, that's a bold.
Speaker 3:That's a bold claim, bold claims.
Speaker 1:I think all violence uh, even bolder, we're having different podcasts. I thought I went with the same bet, but we could have a different one on that, but I do think, uh, the the things that we hear are just, uh, you know something to lament and to to mourn, and so that is that is. Uh, that is my bold stance there. Um, do you have anything you want to add there?
Speaker 3:Uh, you, you, you know, I have, you know, I have bold stances, but they can't be made public.
Speaker 1:For fear of reprisal. I just think I'm like I I don't even know. I need to do more of my own research on this. This is not something that I grew up understanding, um.
Speaker 3:I mean I, I mean I, I mean I know, I mean like from, from the, from the initial, from the initial founding of the, particularly the, the nation state, the nation state of Israel, because when we talk about this history, we're talking about a particular political history. Yeah, when the UN partitioned it back in, I think it was 1948. I mean there, there were already people there but they said these are going to be these, these are your new boundaries and stuff. That's how that's, that's how these, that's how these, that's how these conflicts initially get, initially get started. Sure.
Speaker 1:And that was the ushering in of the the pre millennium Is that correct?
Speaker 3:Um, some people might want to say that, okay, um, I I'm not one of those people, but political Israel today is the same as the Israel from the Bible that we're talking about, that's exactly what some people. I don't know why they say that. I mean, I know why they say it, but that that's not. It's not true.
Speaker 1:Cause doesn't Paul say something about not all Israel or Israel?
Speaker 3:True, but that's also not talking about the modern nation state of Israel, Cause this all, all of this is so you're saying it's more nuanced. It's, there's always. There's always more nuance.
Speaker 1:But um well, anything new in your life here, malcolm, get personal. You went global, let's go personal.
Speaker 3:Oh man, you know, you know, I don't, you know, I don't go personal.
Speaker 1:Oh you, you're going to share the most personal thing. Uh, right now, about what? What is keeping you up till midnight?
Speaker 3:Oh, uh, spider-man two, ps five. Uh, it's great, I just beat the main, just beat the main story this morning, uh, so I had to make sure I beat the story within a week of it coming out. So, uh, next stop will be, uh, platinuming that, that game. So getting all the achievements and stuff, which probably by next week.
Speaker 1:Do you, do you need?
Speaker 3:do you need that, do you?
Speaker 1:need affirmation, it's okay.
Speaker 3:I don't even need, I don't even need affirmation. This is how I, this is how I relax. I had a long, I had a long two weeks of of travel and work. Uh-huh, this is how I, Spider-Man is how I decompress.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Spider-Man is how I decompress.
Speaker 1:Well, uh, I, uh, I'm, I'm rocking my, my nineties shirt. So I see today that looks like uh Zach from uh Saved by the Bell war.
Speaker 3:That is uh-huh, that's, that's the look, the Zach attack.
Speaker 1:Uh, and I'm a child of the nineties and I'm uh, I'm happy about it. Uh, there, things were just. Things were just better than nineties.
Speaker 3:Things were simpler than that. Those were simpler Back in the back in the day, Back in the day I mean.
Speaker 1:I mean I was born in the eighties, but I like I think of the nineties as like the years I remember and like things are just better Right.
Speaker 3:Cartoons were better.
Speaker 1:Cartoons were better video games. So Christa and I are um after uh I turned 40, we had a little nineties uh themed gathering and sang some uh old nineties songs, which I'm I'm still lamenting my choice of songs. I don't I. I should have went in with a game plan.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's what you got to do, man. I came in, I came in with my plan, I was ready.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you had, you had regulators, I was ready.
Speaker 3:You had seal, little Nate dog of orangey Seal. It was great. It was great.
Speaker 1:I was just like, ah, is this? What's next? Oh gosh, I'm singing that Hi.
Speaker 3:Pitch oh, here we go Peaches. I mean, I didn't, I didn't plan peaches, but peaches, peaches.
Speaker 1:Did I sing that?
Speaker 3:No, it was. It was me and two of the guys. That's not the point. It's fine, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Anyways, we got. We were trying to get 90s things out. We found our super Nintendo and Nintendo 64 and we didn't really do it at the party. But since then Chris and I have the Nintendo 64 upstairs at our bedroom and you're very proud you finished a Spider-Man. I am very proud that two nights ago Chris and I just finished GoldenEye on the.
Speaker 1:N64, which I've ever played. The multiplayer you know forever and ever and ever, and I don't think I think my brother beat the game. I don't like I ever beat the game and so we were like very proud of ourselves to beat GoldenEye.
Speaker 3:Apparently in the history of GoldenEye, apparently, apparently they snuck in, so apparently the the like multiplayer was was never a part of the plan for the game.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:They snuck it in. They snuck it in at the end and it's the most popular part of it.
Speaker 1:Yes, it was kind of like they were like oh, there's a timeline, we'll ask for forgiveness not permission.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it became the most productive part. That's what everybody loves.
Speaker 1:Yes, so there is your recommendation in life to ask for forgiveness, not permission. No, no, no, no. So, yeah, we talked about video games, talked about 90 shirts. One thing I wanted to share with you is that I just thought it was a funny story that happened yesterday and found its way today. See this beautiful water bottle I have right here. I do. I really like this water bottle. I'm trying to drink more water because I think we as a you know, a nation, don't drink enough water. Sure.
Speaker 3:If you're into that.
Speaker 1:It's, I'm trying to remember to myself to drink more water. So I just got this water bottle and then, like within a week I lost it. Nice, and I'm like dang it and I cannot find. I've looked everywhere, I've looked in my truck and the room and the office or whatever. I found myself at the gym yesterday and I'm working out next to a guy and he's got my water bottle on the ground and I'm like dude, that's my water bottle. And I'm just like what am I going to do? But I'm like, is it my water bottle?
Speaker 1:Is this a common one? I think it's mine, and so, like I wrote my name on the bottom of the water bottle and so I was like how do I like just subtly go?
Speaker 3:check. I felt like George Costanza, if you're a, Seinfeld person, just like.
Speaker 1:oh my gosh, this is going to be so embarrassing, if it's not?
Speaker 2:But also if it is then what do I do?
Speaker 3:Like, hey, man you stole my water bottle.
Speaker 1:I must have left it here and you picked up, took it in your own Start to start to fight the middle of the gym. And he could definitely take me. He was definitely more of a more of a gym guy than I was, so but he's doing these workouts where he like goes down the way like 40 yards and comes back and I was like with his back to me. Oh yeah, there you go, I'm going to check. Perfect timing.
Speaker 3:I'm going to check.
Speaker 1:And so, like he goes away and I start walking closer to it and then, like this other person comes, stands next to it, like to work out. I was like, oh, look over here, look over here. So then I do another workout, so they move away and I come back. I did this and then, like it happened, over the course of like 20 minutes I wasted so much time. Finally I just like I worked myself up to where I was, like I can't, I can't look at this.
Speaker 1:I can't do this, and so I laughed and I was like whatever. And then this morning, before I left the house, I was cleaned up and next to my drum set I found my water bottle.
Speaker 3:Good, you didn't embarrass yourself too much.
Speaker 1:Really glad it's not you man, so glad I got my water bottle there we go there, you go. So note to self All right, don't harass people at the gym. Yep Moral of all the stories.
Speaker 3:Nice.
Speaker 1:Well, hey, we've just talked nonsense for 11 minutes so far but here we go.
Speaker 1:Oh wow All right, good night, oh my God. I wanted to say thank you for all you who are writing a review and leaving a rating. If you have yet to do that, do so. That is really helpful. That helps people find us, helps the podcast grow, and so if you find any of this helpful, that is a good way to continue to do that.
Speaker 1:One of the things that we wanted to talk about is some of the things that are happening in our church that I think we want to go deeper on, and so some things that we have is we do like a cutting floor, things that we would have talked about in the sermon but didn't make it, and I remember, immediately after this past Sunday sermon that I preached, malcolm was like, oh, we could double tap on this, this topic. So this past past week preached on heaven and some of the different things that we wanted to emphasize with the conversation on heaven. We were finishing the book of Isaiah and we were reading Isaiah 65. And there is this beautiful passage in there in Isaiah 65, 17 that says God says see, I will create new heavens and new earth, and I emphasized how it's the plural word and whenever you see that for heaven, it's not heaven, it's heavens. I think it's a good translation. It's Shamaim, and that's the same word that is used in Genesis one, when God says and God said, or when God created the heavens and the earth, and so now he's recreating the heavens and the earth, and so, anyways, we talked about this. But there's this verse at the very end of this passage on heaven, and again, I think we mess this up to be in some distant, far off place versus the realm of heaven.
Speaker 1:But the poet this is a song, this poet says at the very end, in verse 25, the wolf and lamb will feed together. The lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroyer. On all my holy mountain, says Lord. And I brought up the objection that people usually want to have is like, okay, you know, it's got to go and change the digestive system of these wolves and lions so that maybe God could do what he wants here. I don't know. I think it's also poetry, emphasizing there are some thoughts that if human beings have been referred to as sheep, the lamb, and you have wolves in their midst and you could think of harmful people as being wolves or those were deceptive or whatnot, but you could do that, but it emphasizing.
Speaker 3:Take that theological interpretation.
Speaker 1:The most diametrically opposed people would come together, which I do think is the bigger argument, is that there was going to be no violence in heaven, there's going to be no pain, and so, anyways, then the lion will eat straw like that. So he may, god may, change the digestive system and there will be none of that. Or it could just be emphasizing that. I don't know how it's going to work, but then it goes to the one. That doesn't seem to make sense, and dust will be serpent's food. Malcolm, what did you have to say about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that because also, so the NRSV like translates there's a, there's a, there's the dis, there's the disjunctive, but in 25. So the wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw, like the ox, but the serpent, its food shall be dust, and so like. So when I read that, first of all I think back to the curse in Genesis 3, where the serpent is cursed to eat dust for the rest of his life. And what I hear, what I hear in that verse is hey, there's going to be a whole like basically, the new heavens and new earth are going to be, in a sense, really different from our current new heavens and new earth because of the level of corruption, because of, because of what sin, because of what sin has done. But if there's one thing that's going to stay the same, is that the serpent still, the serpent still loses, which is to say which, which, and and and, and, if you, and if you draw that connection between, between, between the serpent here, the serpent in Genesis, and then and then and then in Revelation, when we're told that the great, the great dragon, the old serpent, the devil, what, what's being one of the things that I think.
Speaker 3:That I think is also kind of being hinted at here is, you know the depth, this, this may be a new heavens and new earth, but it's one, but it's one in which the devil remains defeated. That's, that's something that, yeah, I think that's, that's, that's, that's, that's. That's got to be at least a piece of what's going on here, because it's, it's just, it's essentially a direct quote of the, of the, of the curse, and it's saying that, like, this is an out, the these, these are elements of these. The, the curse on the curse on us is going to go away. The curse on the, the curse on the serpent doesn't, because, because Christ comes from the well of Christ, ultimately comes for the redemption of us and the world, but not the serpent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. So why is it? Why is it eating dust? See even in Genesis and the curse what does that? What does that mean? That you, you know, dust will be your food.
Speaker 3:That's the part that I'm I've well, and there's a and there's a range of Is it like cause?
Speaker 1:another one bites the dust. It's going to be death.
Speaker 3:Well, cause, you know, cause I, I think, I, I, I forget which there's an, there's, there's an interpretive tradition that that that says that, like that, the, that the serpent in Genesis is like a dragon, that's got like, that's got like arms and legs and stuff, and so, and so this is so. This could be described as an, as an, as an etiology. That is, that is a, and you can, you can see this throughout Genesis, where you have these explanations, where you, where you have these stories that tell us why things are the way they are. And so, in answering the question of why a serpent slithers, it's, it's as a result of it's, as a result of the curse you, it's, it's basically the serpent that it's arms and legs removed and has to slither. So it's because it's on the ground. It's on the ground all the time. It's eating dust, but uh, yeah, it's, it's. That's a topic for discussion. It's a topic for discussion.
Speaker 1:Which I find compelling, that it was a dragon that took the legs away. But then I'm like but then what's the continuation of, like Komodo, dragons and other forms like this? Well, you know.
Speaker 3:Komodo dragons, that's just a name. Have you ever seen one of those? Yeah, those things are.
Speaker 1:I mean they just I saw one game get fed a deer and I was like oh my gosh Good gracious Jeez Louise.
Speaker 3:That's a lot yeah.
Speaker 1:We're just pondering the most important conversations here. But you know what, when I was at high school, I must have had this verse in the back of my head I don't know why that the snake would eat dust. And we went. I went to a restaurant with my older brother I think it was. If you're going to laugh, I think it was CC's pizza.
Speaker 3:That's right. That's right. I love CC's pizza.
Speaker 1:Well, I just, but it gets weirder.
Speaker 3:So like we're at CC's pizza, oh boy, oh boy.
Speaker 1:And my older brother sees, like the cashier or the person put it out pizzas or whatever I forget who it was and he's like dude, she's attractive. And I was just like, like like this is why I'm like where are you going to go pick up people at CC's pizza? No offense if you work at CC's pizza and my response was oh man, I don't know, it looks like she eats dust for breakfast. And he was like what? I was like like a bowl of dirt, I think that's what.
Speaker 3:How are you slim?
Speaker 1:She looks a little dirty, I don't know I should have said that.
Speaker 3:You're the worst, we're going to move on.
Speaker 1:That's hilarious, all right. The other thing I wanted to talk about related to what we've been doing in our church is this past Sunday, we had a couple of baptisms, which was delightful. I just love baptism Sunday. Everyone's joyful.
Speaker 1:There is a joy in the air and, in a time when there's a lot to lament and mourn in the world is nice to be able to celebrate some of these good things, and I think that's an act of faith to actually have joy in the midst of this stuff, and so, anyways, it's nice to have these moments like that. But, anyways, I thought this would be a good time for us to talk about baptism as well, because we, as a church, practice two different types and I think some go. Hmm, I feel like you should pick a lane.
Speaker 3:Well, historically, most of the church does two different, does two, does two types. Most of the church does both, both infant and believers, and believers baptism. It's only baptists to them.
Speaker 1:And Malcolm as a former Baptist. True, do you want to? Let's debate this. Oh no, let's debate this, do?
Speaker 3:you want to pick a side? See y'all and remember I don't prep for this, so this is. I was not, so I had to come in cold.
Speaker 1:Huh, I'm kind of coming to cold too. What do you want to discuss? What do you want to discuss, lou? All right, so, you grew up Baptist. I did All right, so, and so did I, and so.
Speaker 3:I am building, and I'm building deep anti-baptist sympathies as the days go by.
Speaker 1:See, and we have quite a bit in our midst, in our church, that hold that view. What is the best? Now, let me? Let me let you make your argument. What's the best argument for infant baptism that you, because you most recently, changed your view on, so why don't you make that argument?
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, I think the most, at least what's most compelling I guess, hold on.
Speaker 1:So I guess what are the two arguments or what are the two forms that we're talking about?
Speaker 3:I mean, the primary question is whether you baptize, whether you baptize infants or not, or believers only, yeah, or believers only. So everybody, everybody who's a Christian, baptizes believers. The question is whether you baptize infants and young children who are children of believers, whether you baptize them as well. And part of this is because you, whichever, whichever way you go, if you, if you choose to limit baptism to only believers, or if you, or if you also baptize infants, you're you're, you're you're making. It's not something that we are told explicitly in the scripture either, either way. So so you have to, so you have to take a broader understanding of, of the history, of God's covenants with his people and things and things like that. All of that, all that feeds into which side, which? Which of these sides you, you, you take? Yeah, for me, what's been most convincing is, you know, the, the children, the children of the, the children of believers, have all, have always been, have always been members of the, always been members of the covenant, of the covenant community. So, so, so, from from, from Abraham's, from Abraham's circumcision for the people of Israel, the, the, the I mean the children are considered, are considered part of that, part of that part of that covenant community as well. And the question then, in the new covenant is okay, with the coming of Christ, are the kids kicked out, or are they still, or are they still part of the community?
Speaker 3:For, for, for me, I find it, I find it convincing, say that, no, like the children, the, the children, the children, are still included. That does not say, that does not mean that if you're a believer and you have a child, that your child is necessarily going to come to faith and he, that's, that's no more. That's no more true than than circumcision is a, is a, is a is a sign of, is a sign of faith, not but, but but also. You know, I also, I also see for, especially for the, for the, for the Baptist, where you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you. I'll get to that later, I'll get to that later, but for me it is also and I told this to the church on Sunday it's also this visceral reminder of how deep God's grace is to see an infant enjoy those, enjoy those means, to basically see the fact that, even as an infant, that you enjoy this means of grace, and that God normally works through families. This is a great sign of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's say the Baptist argument. And growing up Baptist myself, this was really hard for me to shift off of, and even when I ultimately did so card on the table I still think this is a really delicate and difficult debate and I think the Baptist argument, the best arguments I think, would be looking, let me mean, from scripture, and so you have, they might point to passages like Acts 8. And you have, you know you're talking about Simon the Sorcerer and you know he gets kind of debunked right. And then 812, it tells us but when they believed Philip, as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Speaker 1:And so you believe and you get baptized, and so it's this connection as a kind of a symbol of faith, a visible sign of an inward reality. And then you go to Acts 2, you know we're looking at Peter's sermon and at the end he says repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus. And in a sense I'm going to go amen, hallelujah, on both sides. And this is where I think what Malcolm was referring to is that all believers believe that that is a part of it. So when you do become a Christian, whether you believe in infant baptism or not, if you become a Christian, you get baptized. Like it is a sign.
Speaker 3:It's an initiation into the Conan community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so that's the part that then goes. People go. Okay, then what do we do with children? And that's where I think a Baptist would say well, you wait until they profess faith, because it's you're waiting, just like you waited until you saw. And what Malcolm's referring to is, you know, people coming into the covenant community, and in Old Testament and they were brought in, the sign of that was circumcision and whether that sign continues in New Testament. And the argument is because of the coming of Jesus, the signs of blood is no longer needed, but there is a symbolic sign of water regeneration that people do. And so, again, we're not just making this up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it's a continuity. I mean it's a continuity versus discontinuity point. So it's asking the question of okay, with the coming of Jesus, does this mean that we're starting every like everything starts, everything starts over, or are there obvious kind of clear through lines between the covenants that God has made with his people and one of the things that I think you get from both the Old and New Testament? Even just in thinking about the way that you treat, I guess we can think about it. The way that Christians treat their children is like if you're believing parents, you essentially encourage to treat your kids as part of that community until they prove themselves to be otherwise, or unless they prove themselves to be otherwise.
Speaker 1:And the flip side would be to see them as not yet believing and you're trying to do everything in your power to evangelize to them or to bring them up.
Speaker 1:I mean, even they may not yet fully believe but you're kind of trying to work towards that and I think both seem to have that little merit.
Speaker 1:But I think the scriptural arguments here that, let's say, the infant Baptist would argue is, if you look at Acts 16, there's the time when Paul is in jail and he actually is telling the gospel.
Speaker 1:Paul and Silas are telling the jailer about Jesus and the jailer says in 16, verse 30, he brought them out and asked Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Which is such a great question? And they replied believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household. Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him into all the others in his house At the hour of that night the jailer took them and washed their wounds. Then, immediately, he and all his household were baptized. Now an infant Baptist would argue in this moment, right here, that there it is he and all his household were baptized because he was brought to faith, he repented, he was baptized, but then you brought your whole family because they are now a part of the covenantal community that Malcolm was referring to, that Old Testament is consistently referring to, and so this is, I think, one of the best arguments for infant baptism.
Speaker 3:However, I mean, you could see it in the. This is the thing about when it comes to particular scriptures, especially in Acts, and this conversation is that you is that as a, let's say, as a hypothetical Baptist. I can look at that. And also Lydia in yeah, in 16, 14, 15, where she and her household are baptized. I could just make the argument well, no, like that's just saying that everybody in the household also also believed, so they were baptized, right.
Speaker 1:It was a household revival. It was a revival, which it could have been either this is where.
Speaker 1:I'm like, I think we could be splitting some hairs on that Like because we just don't know, especially, I mean, in this particular scenario. And so, in terms of like, what would be like our silver bullet to like, be like this is the most important the universe to argue. I think it's a really important one, but also I think both sides can use that in their arguments. And so I'm not saying this is an unimportant debate to have. Oh, it's an important one to have. People have fought wars over this.
Speaker 1:This is, I think, it's important, but I also think there is a theological humility that we need to bring to this, to go, let's say, there could be some more out there that we need to learn, and so, anyways, I think it is a complex conversation. I'm not trying to end it, but I am trying to say I do think there are many good arguments of either way, but we lean towards Malcolm and I lean towards having infant baptism. That's why our church does that, but we also have believers baptism, and we don't force people to believe to take one side or the other in our church, and so we actually honor both.
Speaker 3:And I think it's also important to remember for most, for the vast majority of Christians around the world do both the question is really about. The question comes down to is about whether or not you do infants. Everybody baptize believers. Because we see throughout the scriptures that's what we see, those are the baptisms that we see. But that's also because the generation that we're looking at when we're looking at the scriptures is that first generation of believers, people coming out of paganism or whatever. We get fewer.
Speaker 3:And this is one of the things that I think that Paul is dealing with in letters like 1 Corinthians, where he's like, okay, jesus is gone, but we've got to work through. There are some kind of particulars of the Christian life that we've got to work through that he didn't specifically talk about. So, for example, when he'll talk about if a couple is married and one member becomes Christian, does that mean that they leave that marriage? That's a question that Jesus didn't answer. So he does it there by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. But there are other questions like that that, at least for me, I try to get back as early as I can to see what those first trends of interpretation of the scriptures, where that went.
Speaker 1:So that's another thing that I want to guide the way that I think Having both baptisms, yeah, yeah, and I think the thing that I've said this before in our church and so if you've heard me say this a million times, I'm sorry, but I think the thing that helped me understand the difference kind of from opinions here is a Baptist will look at a baptism and say this is my sign to the world of what God's doing in my heart. It's a sign of faith, and that's how I saw it growing up. That's how I kind of thought of my own baptism. A person who believes not only in believers' baptism but also in infant or child baptism, sees it not as my sign to the world of the faith that I have, but God's sign on the person that when they do believe, god promises to wash them clean. And so the question is is it my sign or God's sign? And I think that's when I go oh, I actually believe it's God's sign. All of the signs in scripture are not really our signs, if they say anything that's ours.
Speaker 1:It's a bad thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it's not fundamentally about you.
Speaker 3:It's a declaration of God's grace, because the fact of the matter is that when we baptize somebody, we don't know whether they're regenerate or not. Right, really, people can long con us Not at Mose but every time we do that, we're reminding ourselves and the congregation, similar to what we do in the Lord's Supper. We're reminding them of who Christ is, what he's done and what he's promised and what he's promised to us, and that's what's most important about that. So, even when we call one another to remember our own baptism, that's not a oh, remember that decision I made, or remember this particular moment or whatever, because, as somebody who doesn't have a like, I don't have a conversion narrative. My testimony is one of God's kind of just, constant, preserving grace. When I remember my own baptism, what I'm remembering is this is not only who God says he is, but this is what he's promised to me if I believe in Christ. And so that's where that comfort is, because our feelings on a day-to-day basis shift, but the Lord's commitment to us does not.
Speaker 1:Amen. Well, good word. If you have more questions on baptism, send them in. We'll be happy to talk about those. I think now it's something that we've put off for too long. Are you ready to get angry? I feel like Malcolm means to get angry.
Speaker 3:Let's do it All, right, I'm ready.
Speaker 1:I'm emotionally prepared.
Speaker 3:A time for terrible tweets. Oh boy, it's going to be, bad. Oh no, oh no.
Speaker 1:We've been, uh, been off terrible tweets for a little while.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, all right, let me stretch.
Speaker 1:Stretch a little bit, let's see, do we have sound A little?
Speaker 2:bit, you know like a final resistance. And then there's like a last bastion you know like a final resistance in this little town Moscow, idaho and they talk about you know how simultaneously this is going on, you know, with Russell Moore, and then and then over here, you know, in Nashville, there's a fight, laugh feast conference, you know, and this is going down and Doug Wilson's there and these guys and fight laugh feast conference.
Speaker 3:Oh, fight, laugh, feast Okay.
Speaker 1:This is just uh. This is Joel Webin. It's uh Webon. This is from examining Moscow tweet, and so just to set the stage Uh, this was a fight laugh.
Speaker 3:you said fight laugh feast yeah.
Speaker 1:The, the. This is a podcast talking about some of these things, but get get ready for some the worst.
Speaker 3:It's the, it's the it's the Uber reformed, uh uh. Counterpart to Ypres love Yep.
Speaker 1:So you know it's going to be good Live, laugh, love. It's going to be good. Here we go.
Speaker 2:And they just say what the Bible says and they don't apologize and they're not embarrassed. They're not I. I have spent to my shame. To my shame, I thought I was cool. I was not cool. It's embarrassing. It is embarrassing that I, for years, was embarrassed by the Bible Not all the, but there were certain parts that, yeah, I'd be embarrassed about, like slavery or something like that. You know, like yeah or something like that.
Speaker 2:Now, you know, I had somebody recently on my show, you know, and they brought up slavery, you know, and, and and they're a Christian, and but but you could tell it's a little bit like kind of embarrassed, you know, and and they were saying, you know, but like you know, kidnapping, and so the African slave trade, america, you know, like man steelers, that that was a crime, you know, biblically, and punishable and and atrocious in the sight of God, and and so America has bad roots. And I and I paused the first thing, I was well, just for the record, real quick. Um, the founders weren't going to Africa and stealing people, they were buying them. They were buying them. So who stole them?
Speaker 1:Africans Whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't, you can't go there, man. You don't have to talk about such things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's the beauty. That's the beauty is I'm not, I don't have to be ashamed, I don't have to be ashamed, but rightly dividing the word of truth. Black or white doesn't matter, and that's, and you, but you're right, like I know you're joking, but but I, you know, it's just like I was, like man, I'm embarrassed about the Bible, or or I'm a white dude, I can't talk about it, and there's just such freedom and I'll be honest. So it's so much, so much for you. Yeah, so much of it. Came by seeing another guy. Because that's the thing is, like that you get, you're scared and you stay in your little corner, you stay on your little leash because you're like I don't know what will happen, I don't know what. But when you see some other guy do it and you're like that's the worst, that's the worst thing that can happen, vice writes an article about you. Russell Moore won't invite you to your birth, his birthday party anymore. Like that's, that's it.
Speaker 3:Poor, poor, poor man.
Speaker 1:So what do you think about Joel's account that people weren't actually stolen? Yeah, they were bought.
Speaker 3:Yeah, to the to that in excess, 21, 21, 16 were told whoever steals a man and sells him and anyone found in possession of him shall be put to death, which is to say you. You buying stolen people does not absolve you from that act of man-sealing, according to this Bible that you say that you are so faithful to. Oh, I mean, that's just that's and that's just a. That's just a direct, that's just a direct rebuttal. Besides the broader context of disaster, that was so bad.
Speaker 1:That's just, but it's one of the things that you don't have to be ashamed.
Speaker 3:Slim Slim, you don't have to be ashamed of what, of being, of being, of, of, of of being, of being complicit in racial capitalism, because all of as long as I just see somebody, as long as I see somebody else just being bold and wrong, yeah, I don't think there's boldness to be wrong too, yeah. All it takes is that All I need is just somebody else. If I can just get with, if I can just have the camaraderie with somebody else, who'd be wrong with me?
Speaker 1:Which I think. I don't think he's wrong in that. That you're right Seeing someone else, be bold and and and not get kicked back is going to embolden you.
Speaker 3:I am not ashamed of the gospel so Slim.
Speaker 1:Gosh, don't, don't, don't merge these things.
Speaker 3:I'm not ashamed. Don't merge these things Not ashamed.
Speaker 1:So it's. It was so bad. There's a lot there. It was so bad that I just was like A lot there?
Speaker 1:Do you even debunk it? Do you even talk about it to give it more play? But I do think it's something that we have to continue to disentangle and go no, no, no. We can't let anyone kind of continue with this, because if we just ignore it then that will probably kind of perpetuate, more people following suit with them. And as you read from Exodus, I mean, the eighth commandment is you shall not steal. And the Westminster larger catechism, question 142, what particular sins does the eighth commandment forbid, in addition to failing to do what is required? The eighth commandment forbids theft, okay, great robbery, kidnapping, which he says it wasn't kidnapping, it was kidnapping, but even if it's not and receiving stolen goods and we're not putting people in the category of goods, but receiving anything stolen.
Speaker 3:But according to the law, according to United States law, that's exactly what it was. That's true.
Speaker 1:That's true, and it goes on, but it's like there is so much more you could be said about this that the fact that you're going yeah, I shouldn't be ashamed.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, man, what? That's what the Bible says. I don't need to be.
Speaker 1:Is it?
Speaker 3:just about Proclaim it boldly.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it is trying to just alleviate consciences because we are so worried about this burden.
Speaker 3:It's okay for you to well and like, and there's a and also, and here's the other thing. There's just this there seems to be, at least in some circles, just this desire to maintain the innocence of particularly this, of this nation particularly. And I just don't, as a Christian, I'm not supposed to, I'm not defending the innocence of any nation, of any nation state or any nation period, because any kingdom apart from the kingdom of God is going to operate by the, is going to operate by the rules of the kingdom of the world. That's what I'm going to expect. If Christ does not, if Christ does not rule, then the one who's ruling is the prince of the power of the air, and I'm going to expect those things to come out of those spaces, which is to say, every single nation state in the history of this world, besides, you know, besides, not the nation state of Israel, but the people of Israel, biblical Israel. Besides that, they all operate. They all operate by that logic.
Speaker 3:I have no moral obligation to defend the innocence of anybody in that, of anybody in those spheres. I have a responsibility to apply the lens, to apply the lens of, to apply the lens of Scripture to them. But yeah, man, I just people put in all this energy of just wanting to be I've said this before you just want to be the good guy in your own, the good guy or good girl in your own story, and it's just like that's not. I'm just not interested in that project, just not interested in that project. And there are so many people who are so interested in that project.
Speaker 3:I'm just like stop stop doing all the the, the somersaults and just just say that it's even. Just look at evil, call it evil and seek to not do those things it seeks to construct. Seek to try to construct structures that keep you from doing those things.
Speaker 1:But Malcolm, those are not just other people.
Speaker 3:Racism is exhausting Slim.
Speaker 1:Those are not just other people who are calling evil, those are our, our ancestors.
Speaker 3:Okay, your ancestors did evil things. It happens all the time. It's all terrible ancestors.
Speaker 1:Okay, you have terrible ancestors, but but but, malcolm, if you were to say and I don't know if your parents listened to this podcast, but if you were to say your parents are terrible.
Speaker 3:Okay, Maybe they are not mine I mean, but they've done terrible. But I know my parents have done terrible. I mean, I know my parents have done, have done bad things, yeah, and like it's just-.
Speaker 1:That's where I I completely hate what he's saying and what the justification and the, the, the gravity that everyone is kind of pulling towards of defending our nation, defending our heritage and our ancestors.
Speaker 1:But I understand why they're doing it is, is out of try to love and, you know, restore that.
Speaker 1:But I think there's freedom in what you're saying, there's freedom in going yes, like this is like the freedom of you know, like you can, you can argue and try to justify your sin forever and ever and ever, to, to, to, because you think that's what's going to make you feel better, to be like no, no, I didn't, I only did that because they did this. I only, I only cut that person off because they cut me off. I only stole this because you know, the this was, this was taken from me, whatever it might be, I, I understand the, the, the, the line of thinking that is trying to justify your actions, but there is so much freedom and not trying to justify yourself and not trying to justify your country, and not trying to justify these decisions, and just owning it and going, yeah, this is our heritage and it's something for us to lament, just repent and seek to live a life of justice Like that's just that, that's all you need to, that's all you need to do Just repent, just repent.
Speaker 3:This is why repentance is so is like. Repentance is just so hard for people. Confession in general, it's hard to look at something that you may have a part of and say that it's evil, and say that you don't want to do that because, because, because, because it quit, because for some, your identity formation is so, is so locked up in this other, in this other thing that isn't Jesus that you, you know, feel the need to, feel the need to defend it. And, like I said, that's just not a project that I'm interested in.
Speaker 1:Well, I think one of the reasons that I think people are so locked into these things is there is a warship that is going on right now, and so the next terrible tweet that I want us to look at real quick is from the right wing watch and the Texas Railroad. Commissioner, wayne Christian mocks concerns about rising global temperatures and climate change, declaring that environmentalism is a bail warship.
Speaker 3:Interesting.
Speaker 1:On Monday the Christian Nationalist Organization engaged in a broadcast panel and Wayne Christian was invited to speak. He's our Texas Railroad Commissioner. He does not actually oversee the state's railroad, but we'll you know, we'll jurisdiction the state's oil and natural gas and all that stuff. And in it he says let's see. Well, the most important thing is it is it's God's gift to man. God told us real quick that man was one that was supposed to take care of this, this world, and it was our responsibility to do it. Okay, the biggest scam in history I found in the six years I've been as your railroad commissioner is the Green New Deal. All this is the biggest scam on the public worldwide. Let's see.
Speaker 1:Where does he say you know he's defending oil and how it's kept warm and all that. Where does he say something bad about mother earth and Al Gore? So anything we do is bad. If we make water cleaner, stronger, better available, that's wrong because that's disturbing mother nature. Now that's the same thing I read in the Bible as worshiping bale. We worship mother earth. So do you see the line of thinking here? Do you agree with Wayne?
Speaker 3:I always say about water is a that making it, that people are arguing that making water cleaner and stuff is is is bad, is bad to do. I just think that's I. Yeah, it seems to be, seems to be straw manning. Seems to be straw manning to me. So like, yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's interesting to call that. Call that bale worship rather than just basic creation care which I want.
Speaker 1:We're going to have a podcast on interviewing the bale of professor.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a pretty bold. It's a pretty bold statement to say that we have, that our relationship with the earth has been anything besides exploitative, especially given our, given our particular political economy. Which where am I?
Speaker 1:I'm a late yeah come on.
Speaker 3:Where's the sound effect? I don't know.
Speaker 1:There we go, there we go.
Speaker 3:Anyway, so which sees, which sees land fundamentally as commodity rather than something that people need to live. Basically, it is a constant commodification of of of everything, a commodification of us and a commodification of nature. So like that's just, that's, that's, that's been our, that's been our status quo. So to argue that that's yeah, to argue that resistance to that is bale worship, I, I, I mean obviously, I mean obviously I disagree. I actually think it is. It is more it is more faithfully Christian to see those things as yeah, as yeah.
Speaker 1:And if you want more on that you should listen to last Sunday's sermon from our church on on heaven and how it's actually going to be restoration of this earth, and so we should actually take care of this earth and so carried for our water and for our air and for the trees and plants and animals. God seems to care a lot about the animals. He would even make a covenant with the animals wild like it. God loves the earth and so let's not call that bale worship and to end on positive stuff, because of that is so terrible and some people around here are just so terrible. I'm going to talk about Jesus. Jesus is great.
Speaker 3:Jesus is really really great.
Speaker 1:He really is and Jesus is really doing wonderful things saving people, and there are some beautiful stories. We should, we should bring in some more beautiful stories to counteract our terrible tweets.
Speaker 3:Beautiful stories.
Speaker 1:And so if you have some that you want to share, some good, beautiful things of God working in this world, I love for you to send those in. At theology, hello. At theologyandpiecescom, we would love to share some of the good news stories of where God is at work, because we want to share the beauty, we want to see what God is up to and not just lament what the devil and all of his minions and people are up to. And so, please, please, please.
Speaker 2:We want to have some more joy in this world.
Speaker 1:I think that is a good spot for us to pause here. We got so many fun sound effects.
Speaker 3:There we go.
Speaker 1:So if you got some good stuff, you got some good stories of God doing beautiful things. Maybe it's just your own story, what God's doing in your life. I'd love to hear from it, so write those in. Hello at the lgbiscom. You can find us on Instagram, facebook, twitter. This way to support the work is give it a rating review. If you found any of this helpful, give it five stars, share it with a friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, love y'all.
Speaker 3:Love y'all. It's good to be with you again. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:Malcolm is going to freestyle on our way out with this beat Sure Not going to do it.
Speaker 3:Nope, not going to happen.
Speaker 1:One Nope.
Speaker 3:Two Nope, three Nope Not going to happen, just a beer. I just don't want to hear people talking right now. Let's get started. Yeah, okay, thanks you.