Join us as we attempt to unscramble the unique challenges facing the church's same-sex attracted believers. We respond to listener questions on the feasibility of celibacy, eternal destiny's, and practically how these things play out in the church, all the while highlighting the importance of humility when navigating these conversations, reminding ourselves to focus on "the log in our eyes" before pointing out "the speck in someone else's."
And let's not forget the important things like: background music and holiday debates. When is the ideal time to put up Christmas decorations? Real or fake Christmas trees? Is Turkey the most overrated tradition ever?
Whether you're interested in theological discourse or looking for some holiday decor inspiration, this episode offers a rich blend of thought-provoking discussions and lighthearted banter.
Join the conversation and listen in!
Like, subscribe, rate please!! Then share with a friend!
For more information, you can follow us at
https://www.theologyinpieces.com/
Theology in Pieces on Instagram - @theologyinpieces
Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
check us out at www.mosaicwaco.org or on instagram.
Join us as we attempt to unscramble the unique challenges facing the church's same-sex attracted believers. We respond to listener questions on the feasibility of celibacy, eternal destiny's, and practically how these things play out in the church, all the while highlighting the importance of humility when navigating these conversations, reminding ourselves to focus on "the log in our eyes" before pointing out "the speck in someone else's."
And let's not forget the important things like: background music and holiday debates. When is the ideal time to put up Christmas decorations? Real or fake Christmas trees? Is Turkey the most overrated tradition ever?
Whether you're interested in theological discourse or looking for some holiday decor inspiration, this episode offers a rich blend of thought-provoking discussions and lighthearted banter.
Join the conversation and listen in!
Like, subscribe, rate please!! Then share with a friend!
For more information, you can follow us at
https://www.theologyinpieces.com/
Theology in Pieces on Instagram - @theologyinpieces
Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
check us out at www.mosaicwaco.org or on instagram.
so what is up? Yeah, universe, yeah, wherever you may be listening to us on your devices, scrub in the toilet, run on the treadmill post quiet time. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. What other options are out there?
Speaker 2:I don't know when do you listen to podcasts?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm at the point where it's. When do I not listen to podcasts?
Speaker 2:Wow, that's, that is, that is.
Speaker 1:I should probably spend more time with the Lord.
Speaker 2:That's a life trajectory right there.
Speaker 1:That's what that is, uh well, good day. Podcast theology pieces. Listeners, we're your hosts, slim and Malcolm.
Speaker 1:That's my name, sorry, welcome to theology pieces where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world or somebody has shattered of pieces Um, and today we are going to uh not end um, but conclude for a minute of our, our little mini series, uh that we've been trying to have uh surrounding uh topics, uh touching on LGBTQ, uh, gay Christianity, uh, our understanding of uh, same sex marriage, things like this Um, and the Bible's a view of that Um, and today is our Q and A response, and so some of y'all have been sending in your questions and uh, we'd be happy to touch on those Um, and we are looking forward to that. We know this is important and we want to take it all seriously, um, but before we do that, as always, we want to continue to get to know one another. Um, so, malcolm, yes.
Speaker 1:Your favorite part of our podcast is opening up like like a book. Uh-huh. What's going on in your life? What's new what? What are you doing?
Speaker 2:Just traveling, how's?
Speaker 1:your heart.
Speaker 2:I have to. You know what I'm gearing up for. I'm gearing up.
Speaker 1:How's the real Malcolm do?
Speaker 2:I'm traveling this week. I have some academic conferences, Uh, so I have to write those. I have a lot of. I have a lot of writing to do in between jobs.
Speaker 1:When you write, do you? Do you listen to music Sometimes? And is it music without words. I feel like that that's hard for me to write while there's words in my yeah, yeah, it's, it's generally like electronic music without words.
Speaker 2:Sometimes some, uh, some, like anime theme songs. Anime, okay, should all like Japanese pop. Yeah, thanks, um, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's. It's mostly like future funk and and uh, that kind, that kind of stuff Nice yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whenever a Spotify has their like uh end of the year, uh album, like what you've listened to the most it's, it's always uh thwarted on my end because it's just like interstellar man all the time.
Speaker 2:That's it. That's what it is. It's such a good album.
Speaker 1:It's such a good soundtrack. Uh, I can't stop listening to it. Um, um. Another fun I want to, as we're we're entering next week. Uh is uh Thanksgiving. If you're listening to this podcast, uh, we're in November of 2023. Um, and I'm curious do you think it is too early to be putting out your Christmas decorations now? Hmm. When is it morally right to be able to put your Christmas decorations out, oh people in their.
Speaker 2:Christmas decorations.
Speaker 1:Help some, help some couples out there. There are people listening right now that need to tell their spouse the answer.
Speaker 2:That's unfortunate, because I just I care so little about decorations, deseret, just in general. Oh yeah, of course. I mean yes, of course. It's even in general just interior design and all the kind of stuff. It's just, it's just so so, so low on my favorite.
Speaker 1:I'm completely so you really just don't care if someone puts up decorations.
Speaker 2:You can put up decorations if you want. Okay. If that's what makes you happy, yeah, great. Do that whenever you want. If you want to do it like immediately after Halloween, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, after Halloween, that's when they start being sold in the stores. Yes, and I'm like we haven't even gotten to celebrate Thanksgiving yet that's what you know whatever whatever the market, whatever the whatever the market tells you is right.
Speaker 2:So whatever it comes up you heard it from Malcolm, Not the right.
Speaker 1:There you go, that's my that's my thought. That's my thought on on on holiday decorations whatever the market tells you, whatever the market tells you. So I don't know, I'm, I'm torn, like I, I was kind of apathetic and then people were like it's just like the day after Halloween, I'm like really already, and yet there are, there are some who are like you do not put out a holiday decoration there. There are some who are like you do not put out Christmas decorations until Christmas.
Speaker 1:Because that's the time to celebrate, cause the rest of the season is Advent and we have we, that's we as a church, are going to celebrate Advent, and it's the season of longing and waiting for the Lord. I just feel like we're missing out on a whole month of anticipation and, and the market has told me, no no.
Speaker 2:I just. The market is smarter than all of us.
Speaker 1:No, it's not the market, it feels it feels hard. It feels less joyful to celebrate after Christmas.
Speaker 2:Like it's like, well it came like Like during the actual Christmas season yeah, Like the actual Christmas Am. I wrong. Probably.
Speaker 1:Do I? Do I have to change my whole family traditions?
Speaker 2:Probably oh gosh, okay, well, I mean, you know, it's, it's for you know I, you know I'm not going to. I don't want you to go against your conscience when it comes to Christmas decorations.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:However you feel.
Speaker 1:All right. So you're saying there's there's wiggle room.
Speaker 2:I I I will not be dogmatic about it, all right.
Speaker 1:If you are a listener and you believe one way or the other strongly, if you're like Malcolm and your apathetic, you will not write in because you're apathetic. But if you do believe one way or the other strongly, we write in, make your case so that we have some direction. We feel like a ship without a rudder on this issue right now. Hello at theology and piecescom. When is it the right time to put out Christmas decorations?
Speaker 1:Another, I'm curious as as some people are starting to think, christmas decorations. You probably are still in the apathetic category here. Are you a real Christmas tree guy or a fake one?
Speaker 2:Judging from what I just said about being apathetic about decorations, which of those do you think I would prefer?
Speaker 1:The easiest option, there we go which?
Speaker 2:one's the easiest option, so you're a fake.
Speaker 1:Not as a human being. You're not a fake, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Think of all the just the mess to clean up, just the mess to clean up. I'm just not. It's not Like.
Speaker 1:And also I'm going to help make your case more ecologically. Like shouldn't there be more trees in the universe to help you fight against climate change and things like that.
Speaker 2:You know also, I just don't like cleaning up unnecessary messes Like why would I Like what I mean? There is like if it's about like the joy of the children, the children will have the same joy from a fake tree Somebody plays like the children. I mean I'm just, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's. I think it's just an aesthetic thing and for me I just it's not. Yeah, it's easier.
Speaker 1:It's better for the environment. Now the arguments for it are the smells.
Speaker 2:However you can get some great candle. That's where.
Speaker 1:I'm at and we had, we had a real tree like one year and candle technology is great.
Speaker 2:I think it was like even more dangerous, like I think, like play open flames?
Speaker 1:I don't know. So yeah you heard it from us. We're giving you all the important, you know information as you're entering this holiday season. One more, one more bit of information that you need to learn, if you haven't yet. Turkey is not the end. All be all for.
Speaker 2:Thanksgiving. Oh my gosh, turkey is a trash protein.
Speaker 1:So right now it's next week you still have a chance to change your family's traditions. Do it, plant the seed, and I we're having it with my parents down in Houston, probably for our last time, because they're going to sell their home and hopefully move up to Waco which everyone in the world should move to Waco they.
Speaker 1:But we are not doing a turkey and they didn't do it. Last year I didn't get to participate, but this year I'm participating and we're not doing turkey. All right, we're doing it Texas style. Uh-oh, we're doing brisket. Let's go.
Speaker 2:That's the way it should be right. Let's go See that's, and it's brisket is much less of a trash protein than turkey is.
Speaker 1:That's the way to go, man, If you've had smoked turkey from, like you know, good barbecue joint, that's, that's. That's pretty good, I mean.
Speaker 2:I guess, and yes and yes. I would prefer brisket. It's no brisket, though. There we go. That's what it.
Speaker 1:That's, that's what it should be. What's the best? What's the best main dish you've had. Uh, I mean like um, are you all going to do turkey? Probably? Could you change it.
Speaker 2:No, because I don't. I don't cook for Thanksgiving, so you could I feel like everyone.
Speaker 1:I feel like this is something everyone's on the same page on, but we feel obligated to do it, I know and I don't know why all of these, all of these conventions, all of these conventions that aren't actually delicious.
Speaker 2:Right, I want to eat on Thanksgiving. I want to eat the things that I like.
Speaker 1:Which would be mac and cheese.
Speaker 2:Yes, mac, which I will eat, and that will be wonderful Stuffing or dressing I.
Speaker 1:I guess I mean like I'm not big other side dishes, but that's why I'm like. I mean I guess I need.
Speaker 2:I need canned jelly cranberry sauce, cause that's the way to, that's, that's the only way to do it, but but just by itself or on your turkey. By itself. Man, it's like dessert you just eat it, it's delicious. Okay, it's delicious, okay, anyway.
Speaker 1:I'm just welcome sitting in a quarter of an inch jelly.
Speaker 2:I'm like buy a set, like I mean it's all in the plate but it's not.
Speaker 1:Hey, welcome everyone's over at the dinner table. You know what?
Speaker 2:You know what? That is not the image. But anyway you know collard greens, like that's, but then you know, but like turkey, and like turkey and ham, I'm not a.
Speaker 1:I yeah Ham Christmas and stuff. They're there but I'm not. Those are lunch meats, prime rib and brisket, that's what I want. Prime rib. Yeah, we, for a while we did, we did steak and fries.
Speaker 2:That's a that's Easter thing, but anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for a while we did steak and fries as a family, so we've primed the the pump to where it's now. It's just like we're doing brisket right. There you go, what am I supposed to be? Yeah, so make your, make your holiday shopping much more enjoyable and make better decisions. All right, you know what it's time for, malcolm? Uh-oh, it is a time for a little bit of a terrible tweets oh snap.
Speaker 1:Last week and the previous weeks we've gotten real dark on these terrible tweets, so I wanted to give you another terrible tweet that's not as dark, great, a little lighter, but still terrible. Uh-oh, this is from at cam VTV. Don't know who it is. They're pulling dayquil, mucinex, pseudofed theraflu and many others off the shelves. Cvs has already started. Uh-oh. Have you heard about this? No, why? The FDA has now said things like mucinex oh no, doesn't help yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying it doesn't work. What, what, yeah, how is that something?
Speaker 1:that you've made a decision on right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Something nefarious is a foot. This has been around for how long? Look, I think Kristen does mucinex. That's helpful for her.
Speaker 3:I'm more of a dayquil person. Oh no, I was like oh yeah that's right, mucinex doesn't work.
Speaker 1:Then I saw they were like pulled dayquil. I'm like no, mucinex doesn't work.
Speaker 2:Like what? What no? Is it no Are these?
Speaker 1:placebo.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, well, phenylpherin, yeah, they're saying it has no more effect.
Speaker 1:We need to phone in a doctor, a nurse, a medical employee to give us some input. In fact, actually my neighbor is a pharmacist. I need to talk to him and be like come on.
Speaker 2:Dang. Apparently, the drug metabolizes in the body before it even reaches the nasal passages. It does work.
Speaker 1:Folks just been lying. Folks just been lying after years.
Speaker 2:No, it's been your body the whole time.
Speaker 1:Something works.
Speaker 2:Your body's been healing itself the whole time You're telling me the pain stuff works. Are you trying to tell me that a?
Speaker 1:pharmaceutical company knew they had something that didn't work and yet has sold it for years to make probably billions, probably billions. That doesn't sound like a world we live in.
Speaker 2:That doesn't sound like big pharmaceutical companies. That doesn't sound like pharma at all.
Speaker 1:Part of me believes it.
Speaker 2:Part of me believes it.
Speaker 1:Part of me is like I've taken dickwil. Do you think it's the body? You don't think it's the pill.
Speaker 2:At first. See, it's funny. At first, when you mentioned this, I was like wait a minute, you can't make meth out of all of those things. Is that why they're taking all this stuff? No, you reminded me, it's because they don't work, apparently, according to the FDA. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I feel like there's something else going on there. Uh-oh, we're going to get to the bottom of it. If you also know.
Speaker 2:Is this going to become a conspiracy theory podcast? If?
Speaker 1:it isn't, it will be. Now we have a lot of conspiracies about the turkey industry trying to push their product on us.
Speaker 2:There, it is Big turkey.
Speaker 1:Big Christmas trees. Let's take them all down. We have wasted your time for a little too long now Wasted.
Speaker 2:People turn, people tune into this podcast to hang out with us. This is what our hangouts look like.
Speaker 1:This is actually what our hangouts look like. It's pretty great. We talked about a lot of really important issues On a side note, and then more important issues.
Speaker 2:On a side note based from our we just had our last conversation and I immediately got an email from Amazon when the email says Amazon pharmacy. Oh boy, your new pharmacy is here. So clearly my phone is listening to me and immediately sending emails.
Speaker 1:Big am, big am.
Speaker 2:It's messed up, man.
Speaker 1:Anyway, all right, we're going to have more conspiracy theories. We got to talk through. Oh dear.
Speaker 1:Well, oh dear. So we have had, we've begun this podcast or this series on this mini series, on this podcast We've talked four different people or four different times, around this, this, this topic here, and our first episode. We were kind of, I think, wanting to set the tone and the approach that we wanted to have of emphasizing the spec in the log, that we as the church need to look at the log in our own eyes before we point out the spec in anyone else's eyes, and I think that that humility that we need to have entering a conversation such as this is critical if we want anyone to even have a even to talk. And so I think that was kind of the the tone setter. And then we invited Nate Collins on and the emphasis there was Tom. I mean, we've talked about a lot of different things, but one of the lines that stood out to me was that he emphasized was the better good, actually trying to paint a better picture for us to actually aspire for, and so just very grateful for that.
Speaker 1:Then we had Grant Hartley on and we actually ran through a lot of the different Bible passages and that was, I think, really helpful just to talk through with him and to. For me personally, I needed to wrestle with all of these passages and some of them we felt didn't help the non-affirming argument and some of them I think may have helped the affirming argument and vice versa. But I think overall we, you know, we landed where we landed. We're like I don't see a compelling case from scripture that would argue the affirming point of view, and so if you've missed that episode, go back and listen to that. I think that's. We personally believe the Bible is our main authority on these things and we really want to honor that, and so that was helpful. And then we spoke with Eve touching it, and so good she's brilliant.
Speaker 1:I was really enjoyed our conversation with her, but just talking about actual life, giving deep friendships, and how rare those are, sadly, in our lives, in our communities, in our churches, but how needed they actually are, and especially around this conversation. And so we've been trying to look at this from every perspective and every angle and admit you know me and Malcolm, admit we are not experts, which is why we tried to bring folks on here who have stayed this more and who have lived and made the hard choices as a result, and so I hope you haven't heard that we're saying marriage is the best and everyone should be married and be heterosexual. That's why God gave you those parts which some people. That could have been one of our terrible tweets. Some people are currently making those arguments.
Speaker 1:We want to say heterosexual isn't the standard. As many of y'all know, there are many heterosexual affairs, there's heterosexual rape, there's heterosexual incest, and so that cannot be saying that that's all good. Heterosexual can't be the bar of righteousness. In fact, heterosexual is not going to be practiced in heaven, something we've said many, many times. They won't be given in heaven, and so, with that as a backdrop, I think that opens up a lot of things. That opens our conversations up more and that's kind of the approach that we want to have is the humility something that we absolutely need as a church to have these conversations and just talking with people? So are you in conversations and relationships with people that do believe differently than you? If not, I think that's a problem. I think we need to put ourselves in these areas to not just look who to shoot down but actually to learn from, and so that's what we are trying to do here and so on this podcast, we also don't want this to just be a one-way thing.
Speaker 1:We know it's kind of hard in general with the medium, but we've invited y'all to write in and things like that, and so we have a few questions here today that we're going to touch on and we'll see how we formalize this. I don't want to read all of these, so I'll try to read portions of the emails. So this one is one we got early on from a friend, john Cheety, who's written a few times here and don't apologize for writing, john, we love it, thank you. And he describes himself as a woke, egalitarian, evolutionally creationist in the OPC. I love it. And he says with all the news of sexual abuse among the Catholic priesthood, not to mention married heterosexual Protestants. How can we call same-sex attracted believers merely to a life of celibacy without forcing them, if you will back into the closet?
Speaker 2:He goes on to say yeah, well, and let's focus specifically on the questions, got some of these. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But he says it basically just says, you know it feels like we're setting people up for failure, and so I think his main question is is asking our gay brothers and sisters to be celibate instead of following their greatest desires Is it, is it asking them too much? And is it, as he said, setting them up for failure? And I think first I just want to say I we don't ever want to take this lightly. Obviously, you know, we're not speaking from experience here, and so we admit that, realize that, and I actually do agree with him.
Speaker 1:If we continue to do church the way the Western Church has embraced church, like one hour on Sunday morning, boom, we're done, see you next week and we go on living our individualistic lives, if that's the case, that is a huge burden to place on someone, and so I kind of agree with you that it's setting people up for failure in that sense. And so I do lament that this is the culture the Western eyes Version of church has embodied in many number of ways. But one of the reasons we wanted to bring some people on as guests is to talk, to just show that what we might think impossible, others find not only doable but have flourished in it because they have spaces where real friendship and real community exists, and so no one is forced back into a closet and I just that, the imagery of that is just I.
Speaker 1:You know, it's, it's frightening, right like to the image of just being trapped, and so we hate that as terrible and so we don't ever want that, and I think what the people we brought on have revealed is they're. They don't feel that like they. They have a community that has rallied around them and loved them deeply, and so we don't just talk in the abstract. There are real people who are living this out, but I think it's like the question is Going to come up constantly as we read the sermon on the mount and Malcolm and I will probably touch on that a few times here it's all.
Speaker 2:I ever want to talk.
Speaker 1:Are you excited about the server the next year? It is.
Speaker 2:It is the sir. I have never been more excited to preach a sermon series that I am right now as much as we do that sound Effect for money with Malcolm.
Speaker 1:I think we're gonna talk about how excited Malcolm is for the server of the mouth, my god.
Speaker 1:But one of the questions that's gonna come up a lot is yeah, it seems Great Jesus's picture of like the way the world should be, but, like I don't know, is that that really doable? That seems like a pretty high bar. And there's a. There's a person named I'm see if I can pronounce the name right pinches lapide, an Orthodox Jew who wrote a short commentary on the server of the mouth, described the history in these terms.
Speaker 1:In fact, the history of the impact of the sermon on the mount can largely be described in terms of an attempt to domesticate everything that is Shocking, demanding and uncompromising and render it harmless. So kind of what he's trying to say is it feels like we've we've reduced the sermon on the mount to be something more attainable, because the sermon is impossible by ourselves, apart from the spirit. But I believe, after having talked with these folks that we've talked with, they might say the same thing, apart from the spirit and by themselves yeah, it would be impossible and cruel to ask of them. But by the spirit in community there is greater intimacy there. Malcolm, how would you answer that? Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:I, I think that I think that I think that Christ calls us to do, christ calls us all to do very Difficult things. And when I preach this, this intro, this coming Sunday, the three, the three points I want to make, particularly about the sermon on the mount, but it's true about even the things that I mean, all the things that Jesus tells us to do are all the things that any of the Apostles Tell us to do, is that they actually intend us to live in that way that it is only possible by the spirit and and it's only possible within spirit-filled community.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm and and and like, and so I, I, I have been, I think, like for a lot of my life. I've been Catechized in, at, in atmospheres where I hear these hard things of scripture and have been told in some cases, hey, like this is just a, you know, it's framed in this way for you to realize how inadequate you are and just to lean on Jesus. And then it just stops there and and and all that's true. But you're leaning on Jesus in order to be, in order to actually do those things, and not just hard things that, like the Lord just kind of throws out as hard things. No, like these are, like this is actually the way that he actually intends us to live.
Speaker 2:And so when he says in the sermon on the mount that that adultery is not just, is not just, is not just having sex with somebody who's not your spouse, but it's, but it's lusting after somebody who's not who's not, who's not your spouse, we're lusting after anyone, period, like that, what what Christ does is he, he intensifies, he basically intensifies the demands of scripture, right, and so, and so those of us who might like to run and there are, I think there are things that all of us want to run from. And Jesus like uh-huh, don't run. I've, I've given you, I've given you, I've given you my spirit so that you can actually live in this way and so and so I want, I want, I want the Christian who encounters the word and sees that they're commanded to do something that they feel like is too hard, I want them to remember that the Holy Spirit dwells within them.
Speaker 2:Yeah thus, anything that the, anything that Christ tells you to do? There, there is not. There it? What if you say that it is impossible? What you're saying is that there's something that the spirit can't equip you to do. Yeah, and I don't think there's anything. I don't think anything fits into that, fits into that category, but, but. But. But.
Speaker 2:You also need to be. You also need to be around a people. We're not going to constantly look at you or treat you in judgment. Right, you need to be around. You need to be around people who are actually gonna walk alongside you, people who can actually pick you up when you fall, people who, people who you can, people who you can call Late at night, who you know are gonna listen to you, who are going to comfort you, but comfort you when you need to be Comforted, but also challenge you when you need to be challenged. Like that's, these are, these are, these are the. The For the for the Christian community is necessary. It is not, it is not an add-on, is not this thing that it would be nice to have? No, if you actually Want to be able to live this way and want to be able to do so consistently, you need to. You need to do it with other people, so, so, so yeah being self-sufficient is anti-christ basically and a certain extent yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's what we've, we've lived into in our culture of Elevating, you know, hard work ethic, which is a good thing right and and providing for Yourself, but we've not Elevated the community aspect.
Speaker 1:And I think everyone, wherever you're at people, are like oh yeah, I want community, I long for community, and then all we do is is isolate ourselves yeah, from community, because community can be hard and community can be vulnerable. And I think you, I would say that if you're a church that doesn't elevate community in this way, then maybe we don't even speak on these issues, because you are calling people to be by themselves, to isolate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if people don't like, if you're not simultaneously building an actual space where people can actually thrive, you just kind of spouting off the commands of Scripture is actually gonna, in some ways, I mean, kill them. I mean this is what? Because Greg Johnson reflects on this in his book Still Time to Care, where he asked the question, like, is the biblical sexual ethic harmful to people? And he's like, well, if it's just articulated as a set of rules, then like, yeah, I mean like it can very easily just be seen as just this list of restrictions. But if it's, but if it's narrated in the context of an act, of a community, a community of people who are going to, like I said, walk alongside you, comfort you when you need to be comforted, challenge you when you need to be challenged, then it can, then people can actually see it as a life-giving thing.
Speaker 2:I think our most significant witness as Christians is not, is not the things that we say, but the people, but the people that we are. The best sermons. The best sermons are not the sermons that come out of the mouth of a preacher, but the lives, but the lives of the people who have actually been changed by the work of the Holy Spirit and so, and so what, what? What we need to? One of the one of the reasons that John asks, asks this question specifically about celibacy is because we, it's because we have not lifted up we particularly it's especially post-reformation we have not lifted we, we, we, we have not lifted up examples of our gay celibate brothers and sisters who have come to deeper knowledge, who have come to a deeper knowledge of Christ, a deeper love of their brothers and sisters, as a result of them living lives of obedience to Christ, and and and and.
Speaker 2:People need, people need just like, just like. People need to be reminded that solidarity with the poor is actually, is actually a way of joy. People need to be reminded that these things that Christ has actually told us to do are not just, they're not just restrictions that just lead us to living lives of misery and stuff like that, but that it, but that it is actually a life of deeper joy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's good. And John asks another question in his email. We can touch on briefly here. Just saying I think the general question is I'll try to here's what I hear you asking. He writes the quality of historical context to deny the gay affirming position, when I'm seeing that very same approach used to defend the galatarianism. Or he says how am I to distinguish? So I think the question he's asking is the same arguments that are used to defend the galatarianism that we we have have talked through saying you have to look at the historical context and how the use of these words are meant. He's saying is now used to argue a gay affirming position.
Speaker 1:How am I to discern that? And I think that's a. It's a great question and I think I don't think there's an easy answer in the sense of I just think we have to do the hard work of chewing on the material ourselves and trying to discern what makes the most sense of all the passages. And that's what we tried to do with Grant on that, on that episode, and I think we will. I think even I think we put in the show notes arguments that are affirming, arguments that were not as well, and so that you can try to do your best to discern at all. I just don't think, because one way is saying let's look at local context. I think that's actually just good. You know exegesis of trying to say like, what is what is being said in this time, in this place, in this culture, and how is it being translated to us? So I think that's.
Speaker 1:I think that's the right path, and what your conclusions end with is is up to, I guess, our discernment of that, which is why we don't say we have an infallible, infallible, infallible Interpretation of scripture or anything like that. We think we will make those errors ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and particularly when it comes to and we talked about this when we went through the scriptures on particularly same sex, same sex sexual activity, I mean the scripture, this is, this is actually an issue on which the scriptures are are univocal that that that every mention, every mention of same sex, sexual activity in the scriptures is a word of saying this is against, this is against the will of God, and so, as opposed to some of the conversations that we can have about so, whether it's women in leadership or other things like that, where there are, there are multiple texts to hold, to kind of hold intention, this is this. This is not presented as one of those issues, for example, and you know so, like it's like as another example of like how things can get, can get complicated, and this is, this is short. You know there are constant scriptural condemnations of, of the rich, and and so then, and so then the question. So then the question is like, okay, like who's who's the rich? Like what is rich? Like what is rich? What does rich? What does rich mean?
Speaker 2:And especially, for example, in a, in our current economy, I don't, I, you know, I don't think, I don't think that's being addressed to people who like, like, I don't think, I don't think saving for retirement is like a practice of the rich, Even though, comparatively, when we, when we look at kind of especially the way that we live in this country and the way that and and and some of the situations we see around the world, we can see, yeah, there's a like, there is a comparative, there is kind of a. There is a, there is a. There is a huge comparative gap. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But we're also I mean, we're also in a place where it's very expensive, like it's just, it's very expensive to live Housing. Housing is expensive, but it's also a need. Food is expensive, but it's also a need, so, like, so there's so, so, so you know, christ's intention, even in his condemnations of the rich, is not to, you know, it's not to condemn you for, like you needing to meet your basic needs, right, but what he is talking about is, like, the people who are, like, not working, but where money is just coming, money is just coming in, based on, based on exploitation, based on, I would say, if, like, if, if all of your, if, all of your money is just coming from, basically, capital investments and things like that. Well, like, look, there, there are, there are, there are, there are ways in which that needs to be redistributed to the, to the, to the needy.
Speaker 2:But, but, like, but those are, but those are. But those are conversations when we have, when we when, when we have this, when, when, when we talk about this. You know, historical context doesn't, doesn't dilute the fact that whenever we encounter same sexual activity in the scriptures, it is, it is always. This is against the will of the will of God.
Speaker 1:And that was. I think I said that in the that episode. That was the thing that was really challenging for me, because I was going into going all right, let's look at this kind of same way. You're you're asking this question here, john yeah Of, well, what is that? And I do think that first passage that we looked at in Genesis it was like well, this doesn't even, it's not even talking about this, it's talking about hospitality and things like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So there's, there's parts that you go like, yeah, you're right, this doesn't actually apply to here, but when we look at the other ones and all together in you know the what's the word? The Gestalt of scripture of. In the same thing, when we look at, you know, the Gestalt of scripture around women and leadership, the overarching narrative is is decidedly one way, and so then you have to ask okay, then what do I do? I, you know, bend my will to God's, or I try to bend God's will to what I won't I believe it to be, and not trying to say that's what everyone's doing. I think everyone's trying to do their own interpretation of these, these passages. I do think there's some compelling arguments that that we talked through, that I just don't find fully convincing, and so I think that's where you know I think that's, that's our, our task before us.
Speaker 1:All right, well, let's get to the next question. This is from another listener. Says hi, slim and Malcolm.
Speaker 1:I wanted to get some clarifications about a recent sermon so also someone listening to one of our sermons regarding an Isaiah 56 passage and also the many podcast series you all are doing on the topic of LGBTQ plus Christians. I'm wanting to clarify if you believe that gay, lgbtq plus Christians who are in the same sex marriages would enter the kingdom of God. And what a great question. I like I was actually waiting for someone to ask this question. So thank you, dear listener, because I think this said that we want to be very clear on, and I want to say, like I never want to be in a position of assuming anyone's eternal destiny, like we just can't do it, we do not know, and so, just as I do not think, by virtue of being heterosexual, you are locked into the kingdom of heaven, I can't say that if you are homosexual, you are excluded from it. Some might say, ok, fine, we'll answer the question this way Will there be homosexuals in heaven? And I'll say no, there won't, but neither will there be heterosexuals in heaven.
Speaker 1:So that's where that's my point is. This is not something that's that's ultimately defining of us, and so we cannot assume eternal destinies, and I know that this person wasn't trying to assume eternal destinies. Their question is describing an approach to how we see people that I do want us to avoid of pegging and us in them, because I would. I just really want us. I think I want the church to have to be a place, because nowhere else in our society do we have spots where we have people who are just so diametrically opposed on different issues coming together. Like can we be a church in a community that has both the left and the right, has both Democrats and Republicans coming together, that has both rich and poor coming together, that has both affirming and non affirming? Can that happen in a in a local community? I want that to be yes, I think that's possible, and yet I also know where Malcolm's going to go and we've stated our views of these things.
Speaker 1:And so like there's truth of where we stand and yet like we are not going to. We don't check people's beliefs when they come to the door and we don't say where's your stance on this and where's your stance on this, yes or no? I think that's. That's anti gospel. Like the Lord just, we say in our church that Jesus loves you the way that you are, but loves you enough to not leave you the way you are, and so, like as you come, there is no exclusion, and yet there is a come, follow me, come, follow me, and so I think it's a call, which is, which is, which is a call to particular action.
Speaker 2:Like it's call, it's Jesus saying come with me and and especially, kind of do the things that I say Right.
Speaker 1:So how would you? How would you respond, malcolm?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't have, I don't have a heaven or hell to put people in, but but I, but also as a, so, as a pastor of a church, my, my primary, my primary, my primary role is to is to call the congregation to Christ, like this and so and so, and so I, so, if, if, if it is somebody who is having sex with, with their boyfriend or girlfriend, I'm, I, I as your pastor, I'm going to encourage you to not to not do that because that, because that would be against, that would be, that would be against God's desires for you, if you're, if you're, if, if, if you're gay or lesbian having sex with your partner, I would encourage you not to do that because, because that, because it's against, because it would be against God's, god's will for your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that, that's and and that is not means that's and and and. Implicit, implicit in that is you know, continuing along, continuing along this, along the path of unrepentant sin, leads to judgment. This is something that we see clearly throughout the scriptures Continuing along paths of unrepentant sin leads to judgment. That's true, for true for all of us. It's true of greed, it's true of lust, true of murder.
Speaker 1:All those, all those kinds of things, yeah like Galatians that talks about the works of the flesh, and Galatians 5 says in 519 the acts of the flesh are obvious sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies. And, like, I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yeah, and so I think what we have to see here is does anyone here struggle with, with envy? Does anyone here struggle with, with hatred, with idolatry, with any form of sexual morality? And this is where I think the whole spec in the log has to come back into the conversation of like, I think we, we want to elevate this particular action or this particular orientation above other everything else, and I just I like I don't want to.
Speaker 2:I don't want to be put into that binary. Yeah, I want, well, I want us to be, I want us to be equally intense about all those things. It can be it can it can also be.
Speaker 2:We can use the language of. We don't want to elevate this thing above the others as a way that it kind of tamps everything, tamps everything down, and I actually want it to ramp in some ways to ramp everything up. Going back to what, going back to the way that Jesus frames the Sermon on the Mount, whenever he's like this is what you've heard. What I'm saying is actually even more intense than that, yeah, which is to say that, what, that, that, that that Christ, by his spirit, is calling us all to lives of holiness where he'll send he'll say this in the Sermon on the Mount unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you won't enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. So like so, so I, so, so I want, I want us to, I want us to be reminded that that the Christian life is actually much so. That I was just. I was just thinking about this today. I was just thinking about this today because I think about. I was thinking about like people growing up, like people growing up in the church. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and as especially the last few years have gone by, I, I am being like, I'm being reminded of just how intense the Christian life like really is to a certain extent, like, like, like. Like the Christ is calling us to some like wild, some seemingly wild things, and I'm just like I, I don't feel like everybody's, I don't feel like everybody's encounter with the faith.
Speaker 1:Is that like such, that like people think that like kind of anesthetized yeah, like it's like well, and this is and, and, and, and I kind of you know it.
Speaker 2:Some people blame this with back with Constantine. When, when Christianity gets in bed with the Empire, it starts to like it's it's fires start to kind of dwindle a little bit.
Speaker 2:But like my thing is just like this is, this is like this really is an all consuming, like this really is an all consuming thing, like Christ really does want all of us and like, and even when you look at like people who encounter him throughout the Gospels, like he starts and like these crowds kind of gather and then he had preached us things like the Sermon on the Mount and like and people are constantly like coming in and then and then and then being like nah, it's a little much.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna roll out and like and that's a like, that's a rhythm that I think we are less comfortable with now.
Speaker 2:I think we're. I think our framing of the Gospel and of Christ's command is often such that, well, let me frame this in such a way that kind of keeps people with me. As opposed to like, no like, let me just say what, the way that Jesus wants us to live, and then like, and we're gonna be a people who, by the spirit, are gonna seek to live that way, like, that's the kind of, that's, in some ways, the kind of posture that I really wanna communicate. It is like look, this is not me making things more intense than they are, this is just just look at, just read what.
Speaker 2:Jesus says and then and we're gonna be a community that's going to see Jesus as our Lord it's gonna be like okay, look, this is what Jesus said. He gave us the resources to do it. Let's walk together as we do that. As we do that together yeah.
Speaker 1:But to answer the question, yeah, I think, reaffirming the as Malcolm said.
Speaker 1:I don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone in, we do not know, and so, but the follow up question not this person's, but a question that we do get often that, I think, is one that I want us to hit here is okay, fine, fine, fine, fine, all right, that's heaven or hell, we can't know. Let's talk about here and now. Can a gay person become a member in your church? Can they serve in leadership in your church? Oh, my goodness, yes. So very clearly, and I think first we just wanna again point out, I think I want to point out, the hypocrisy of the church. Like, when we come to the church, do we check if someone has had a biblically justified divorce or not? Like we, should.
Speaker 1:We should, churches should, but they don't. Like we lament what has happened and we ask some follow up questions. So we should ask them that, like what's your story? Things like this. But most churches don't even do that. Like we don't say like is it a biblical justification of a divorce? It was an adultery? Was it abandonment? Was it abuse? You know these are justifications that scripture talks about, but we know people get divorced for all types of reasons. I was just saying, yeah, just one working out.
Speaker 2:Although the most common reasons are adultery, abandonment and abuse. True, true.
Speaker 1:But I just wanna say like churches have not barred people from membership or in leadership based on those reasons. In fact, I think I heard of a pastor who, openly, was having a divorce with his wife and said it was actually for the good of the kingdom. Oh gosh that they would do this and they're both like gonna benefit from this. It was like we're missing it, like so no, the church should never look at a particular sin and say this disbars you from fellowship. That pastor should not be a pastor. But that outside of.
Speaker 1:like there's some things that they say like we have to discern. Like is it okay for them to be in leadership if they have a history of abuse or child abuse? So like there's some things like that that we think are you know, paul even talks about like put them out of your midst. But can a person serve in leadership? And I think our answer has to be, oh, he's like. Well, it depends.
Speaker 1:Like I think there's a greater conversation that has to have be had whether someone identifies as gay or not. Like am I talking to a brother or sister who says I'm a Christian but I don't wanna give up living with my boyfriend? Like that's different than from someone who says I believe and I struggle in this area, but I want to change. Like I want to follow Jesus wherever he may lead me. And so my question then is is what is their approach? Are they like, hey, I wanna follow Jesus wherever he may lead me? Then I'd say absolutely, let's have conversations. We have a ton of brave people following Jesus to the ends of the earth, like that in our midst, and so that's who we want to be in fellowship with. But if the person says I don't really care what scripture says, I'm gonna do my own thing. Like who is that singer? I'm gonna do my thing. What was that? A Miley Cyrus, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:We gotta put that reference in there. Well then, I think that puts people in a bind. Like we as a community are committed to rallying around God in His word and we may get it wrong, amen, why, I could be wrong on things, but this is our best understanding of it, this is how we understand it. And so I think, like we all have to bring our desires before the Lord, and if I let my desires control me, I will be 300 pounds, like I have no, no checks on, like stopping myself with chips and salsa or whatever it might be of any dessert, like, and I will have no family, I will be a hell to live with. But if I bring my desires before the Lord and say, oh, this needs to be crucified and that needs to be crucified, like we all should be doing that, and some of y'all might say, okay, well, it depends. But where the rubber meets the road, are you putting a barrier to someone who is in a same sex relationship?
Speaker 1:And I would just say I think this comes down to our conversation that we had on being center set in episode 22. Like, whenever you try to start something, anytime you try to gather a group of people, you're gathering them to something. And Jesus doesn't just save you from something, he saves you to something, to a fuller life. And so, no matter who you are, when you come to a church and our church, like we at least want to be known more for what we are for than what we are against. And so if you came to our church and said, hey, I'm not really sure that the Bible is actually God's word, and if it is, I don't even buy that it was. You know, it's really relevant for us today I would say like hey, I respect your belief. That's cool. I disagree with you. I'd love to talk to you more about it, why I believe what I believe. But at the end of the day, we do believe the Bible is the word of God and we're gonna rally around that.
Speaker 1:And if you wanna be in leadership here, I wouldn't say we're barring you from leadership because you don't believe exactly as we do. I would just say, like, why do you want to be in leadership here if we interpret these things so differently? And so I just wanna ask, like do you see the difference, how this is? Like we're playing basketball here. Would you like to play basketball here? It's kind of the way we talked about that with the center set there.
Speaker 1:And so, for all the reasons we walked through in our episodes with Grant Hartley, is why we believe marriage is between one man and one woman. That's our understanding. And yet, as I tried to do my best to display, there are many good affirming arguments. So I understand why folks hold differently, but I disagree. I understand that and I think it's good for us, as we've tried to say before, to be around differing views, so we're not gonna require you to believe exactly what we believe to be a member. That's ludicrous, that's impossible. No one can all be on the same page on every single thing, but here's where we are as church. And so, to answer the question, can I remember? Yes, as Malcolm said emphatically, can I be in leadership?
Speaker 2:Yes, and let me add more flesh and teeth to this.
Speaker 1:Flesh.
Speaker 2:Both flesh and teeth One of the other questions that's in here. Well, so the way that I would clarify this is like sexual orientation is not a neither a qualification or disqualification, any position in the church or whatever. Right Now, if you are in a same-sex sexual relationship, yes, that does bar you from both leadership and membership for us, for our church anyway. Because if I'm interviewing a, if I'm interviewing a prospective member and I find, over the course of that interview, this basically unrepentant sin that someone is like I'm not gonna give that up, whatever it is. If somebody operates I've made this reference before somebody operates a payday loan place where the primary function of their business is the exploitation of the poor, that's not something that matches up with the ethic of the kingdom of God and so and so, and we all have, I said, we all struggle with sin, but it's important, for the mark of a disciple is repentance.
Speaker 2:First thing Jesus tells us to do is to repent. The kingdom of God has come near, and so I think that's a clarification to add that Sexual orientation doesn't. It's neither a qualification nor disqualification, and I want us to be able to be a space where we can be clear about the ways in which we're oriented. The fact of the matter is that sexual orientation most often like 99% of the time does not change. It's who you are and how you interact with the world. We want to be really clear that this can be a place where you can be honest about that, and we also want to be a place where we're like okay, given that, let's walk together in being obedient to the Lord.
Speaker 1:And I think our approach would be. So I think Malcolm's giving kind of the fact that the truth there, but I think our approach, just like anything else, if we did have a, let's say like we talked earlier about a guy living with his girlfriend or something I would not lead with, hey, let's talk about this. This is like there's a way to go about these things, to invite people to something greater and better. As a part of that, and I think that's where I want to say there's a truth that we're seeing in scripture, and then there's a way of applying that truth in an approach that I think we have to embody with grace as Christians, of coming alongside people. Otherwise, we're saying upfront here's who's allowed and here's who's not, and if we did that, no one would be allowed in our churches, and so I think that's the part I think we have to make sure we clarify, because I think I absolutely want folks who are struggling with this of whether they believe in the affirming or non affirming position, to find themselves in a place that we were like hey, it's okay to struggle and ask these questions here, like we want to talk. That's why we're trying to have the.
Speaker 1:We said before that clarity is kindness. We're trying to be kind in talking through this, to be able to talk through this with you and try to invite even opposing views on this, and so we'd love for that to happen, because I think if we just said upfront you're gone, then no one even is feeling welcome in our midst and things like that. And yeah, as I said, this is our view of these things. We're playing basketball, this is what we're inviting you to, this is that's our way of seeing the scripture. So did you have teeth? Were that flesh and teeth?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's just that, like I want people to understand what you are entering into when you become a member of a church community. What you're saying is hey, like I want to be, I want to be accountable to my brothers and sisters and to Christ, and I want it. And that means there are going to be areas of my life that are going to be open to people that I would much rather keep to myself, and in many ways, I think we see our sexual lives as private.
Speaker 1:I think we do, and our bank accounts.
Speaker 2:And our bank accounts. They're all these things that I think we ultimately see as private, and when they're presented in the scriptures, they're presented as social things.
Speaker 2:And so really, I mean to say this, to say this I guess I'll say it with teeth If you wanna keep that stuff private, stay away from the church.
Speaker 2:The church is not gonna be a place where you're gonna be able to keep that stuff private, because the church is gonna be a place where the spirit, both through the word but also through the people that you're in community with it's gonna get into all of you, because Christ demands all of you, and I want our church communities to be, especially as churches get bigger, it gets easier and easier to hide, and it does us, it does each of us no good.
Speaker 2:The more that we're allowed, the more that we are able to hide. And so, if you, but also what this means is that our communities need to be communities where we're cultivating deep trust, because nobody wants to, because a lot of what people hear about abuse and all these things that happen especially in church contexts we're operating from a default where people don't trust these communities, and so it's like I think about Baylor's always thinking about recruitment and retention, and you can't focus all of your attention on recruitment when you have not built an internal culture that's actually going to keep and nurture people, and so both of those things have to, both of those things have to be happening at the same time. You have to be nurturing a community where actual, where there's real trust and solidarity, and so that when you invite people into that, you're not inviting them into something that'll kill them, you're inviting them into something that's actually going to heal them.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, and that's what I deeply believe, that the body of crisis is to be. It's to be a community of healing.
Speaker 1:I think that goes back to what we've said with these other interviews of having deeper friendships, of having the better good of what. We're inviting people into a fuller community and, as Malcolm said, kind of as he said, with teeth of like there's no place to hide. And on one level you're like oh, that sounds frightening I don't want to be a part of, I don't want to. But the other level is how lonely it is to be on the outside and too high Like we all think that's what we want. It's one of our most significant complaints.
Speaker 2:It's one of our most significant complaints is that people are lonely all the time. Well, one of the reasons we're lonely all the time is because there's so much of our lives that we just want to keep to ourselves, and it's something I tell, I'm telling the congregation. But as long as we continue to want to build lives of self-sufficiency and all this kind of stuff where I don't need anybody else, okay, then nobody actually has an opportunity to comfort you, to actually speak into your life and to actually challenge you. Okay, like that's the sacrifice that you make when you decide well, I just want to be in a position where I don't need anybody else, and that's not what the body of Christ is. That image of a body is an image of body parts that actually do need each other. A disembodied hand is grotesque, and that's what we're seeking to be if we're just kind of trying to go it alone.
Speaker 1:And I think this is me speaking to myself, so I think we have to lead out here first and say yes, let's have this type of community, and so it's so easy for us to say, well, I do with my friends, with people like me, with people, and that's just like. That's just the natural tendencies of our hearts is to find the people that naturally are like you and click with you. And how do you find people who are different, who may not look like you but also who may have a different orientation than you? And so are they in our midst. Have I been inviting them? Have I been proactive, inviting them into my home and at the kitchen table, and not trying to change, not trying to do a missionary date in that sense, but just to love and to care for and to know folks that are longing for a deeper community. And so I think that's something I need to preach to myself. But also I think we as a body, locally, but as a church, corporately, to be encouraged us to go out and to do, to say like, if we think this is what we're calling people to, then let's be creating avenues for success to happen. So, all right, well, I think that's the end of the questions we had here today.
Speaker 1:This may have spurred more, so we know this is not the end of all questions related to this topic. So, please, if you have some more, shoot them to hello at thealgpscom. Or if you have another topic you're like, hey, y'all great mini series, but I also need to talk about end times or something like that. Whatever it might be, shoot those in. You can find us on Instagram or on Twitter and, as we've said all the time, the best way to support this work is to give it a rating and a review. So, if y'all have done that, thank you. If you've already done that, would you share it with someone? But also, if you have yet to do that, it takes a couple seconds to give it a rating. If you've yet to give it a review, go ahead and do that. That is a way to help others find this, to grow the conversations, if you find that helpful.
Speaker 1:So, malcolm, thank you. Always a joy. I hope you enjoy your turkey next week. Ugh, turkey. I'll be thinking about you all in my brisket While you're eating your brisket. Yeah, huh, all right. Also, make sure to tell us when is the right time to decorate for Christmas. We'll talk to you guys after the holidays. Talk to you soon, דיologicalcom.