Do you prefer Blue or Pink? Action Movies or love novels? Sports or nah?
Today we unpack societal perceptions of gender roles, gender stereotypes, and gender-specific commands in the scripture. We rethink the one-size-fits-all definition of biblical manhood and womanhood as we survey some of today's leading thinkers views on what it means to be a man and woman. We can't wait for you to listen and respond!
Non Toxic Masculinity - By Zachary Wagner
Read some of the articles mentioned here:
4 P's of Masculinity
A Celebration of Biblical Masculinity
Desiring God Article - "Grooming the Next Generation"
The Terrible Tweet of the Day: No Quarter November
Like, subscribe, rate please!! Then share with a friend!
For more information, you can follow us at
https://www.theologyinpieces.com/
Theology in Pieces on Instagram - @theologyinpieces
Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
check us out at www.mosaicwaco.org or on instagram.
Do you prefer Blue or Pink? Action Movies or love novels? Sports or nah?
Today we unpack societal perceptions of gender roles, gender stereotypes, and gender-specific commands in the scripture. We rethink the one-size-fits-all definition of biblical manhood and womanhood as we survey some of today's leading thinkers views on what it means to be a man and woman. We can't wait for you to listen and respond!
Non Toxic Masculinity - By Zachary Wagner
Read some of the articles mentioned here:
4 P's of Masculinity
A Celebration of Biblical Masculinity
Desiring God Article - "Grooming the Next Generation"
The Terrible Tweet of the Day: No Quarter November
Like, subscribe, rate please!! Then share with a friend!
For more information, you can follow us at
https://www.theologyinpieces.com/
Theology in Pieces on Instagram - @theologyinpieces
Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
check us out at www.mosaicwaco.org or on instagram.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIII, oooouuuuubilir, oooooooo, müums.
Speaker 2:OOOOOOO, wooo, whoo, whoo, woo. Oh yeah, yeah, yellow, we wHH go, we are feeling it. Universe, we are back, we have sound effects, we have things that make you feel good, I don't know what. Is it too much, is it over the top?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Oh boy.
Speaker 2:Are we still doing a one take here? We're just gonna keep rolling with it.
Speaker 3:This is what it is man. This is how it goes.
Speaker 2:Nothing professional here, that's just nope.
Speaker 3:Not even a little bit.
Speaker 2:Hey there, dear listener, welcome to Theology Pieces where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your host, slim and Malcolm. And today we are going to talk about Bidlikum Askelidinity and Femininity, so that was too intense, this seemed aggressive, I think. I'm just so excited to be back. Clearly, how long has it been?
Speaker 3:It's been too long. Our listeners are going to start not liking us because of us missing episodes. It's okay, don't worry, we'll be more consistent in the future.
Speaker 2:Good news we decided to go back to weekly. Did we, did we do that? Did that ever seem to be the case?
Speaker 3:We were making executive decisions without your host. That's alright.
Speaker 2:Just play, since it has been a minute since we last spoke, malcolm. People are still just like I don't know who this mysterious figure is.
Speaker 3:I'm really not that mysterious, it's just like this closed book.
Speaker 2:And I gotta know.
Speaker 3:Look, man, I'm only thinking about three things. I got my family's gotta be alive, my book has to finish being written and I gotta do my jobs. That's all I gotta do. And that's what I'm doing with my time. Besides, family's still alive, as far as I know. Wow, it's probably been a few minutes since I've texted, desiree. Do you text that often? I mean? I mean I can check my phone right now. But yeah, I'm sure they're fine. Malcolm, what was your dream? I was a little bit of a fan of the book.
Speaker 2:They're fine. Malcolm, what was your dream job as a kid? Ooh.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, I think I actually I think I've won. Let me think. Let me go back. So, like I was really into, I was a math. I was a math kid up through like all high school, a lot of my Okay, I mean a lot of my friends were like either ended up going into engineering or pre-med. But I didn't. I don't think I ever really wanted that. I'll have to ask my parents. I'll have to ask my parents if there was anything. But before, by the time I wanted to go to college. I think I wanted to be a pastor at that point, okay, and I knew I was like I wanted to do a degree in religion MDF, phd when I was going into undergrad.
Speaker 2:That's impressive and it happened, ta-da, but you Before you were a math.
Speaker 3:I mean I, my academic journey From like first grade Through the entirety of high school Was Basically an advanced, an advanced math track. I loved math. Yeah, math is yeah, man, okay. So here I'll tell the story. So, and I tell a piece of this In this piece that I just wrote for the anxious bench but so back in kindergarten, so there was a, there was no elementary school. That was right Literally at the end of the block From our house.
Speaker 3:So, that's where we were going to go, and so my parents went in with me, but they went to talk to the principal, and the principal apparently indicated that by third grade they they essentially lost their black boys.
Speaker 3:This is a but this is a black female principal and my parents and my parents, upon hearing that, first of all they were just, they were mad Because they were like why would you say this? Like we're not, we're not going to let this happen about them. And so at that point they were like You're going to a different school. So I went to Another public school that was just a little bit, a little bit further away and in first grade there was a teacher who noticed that I and another one of my classmates had Just an aptitude for math. So she pulled the two of us aside and tutored us. And then in second grade I was in a. I remember in first grade doing, I was doing like Long division and stuff in first grade.
Speaker 3:In second grade I was in a. I was in a math class with fourth graders and then in third grade I was in a math class with sixth graders and I essentially I essentially exhausted the math of that school and so then had to. So then went to Went to another school for a gifted and talented program when I kind of continued that. I continued that trajectory and then math, science and computer science, magnet programs Through middle school and high school. So I was, I was 15. You was calculus at 15?.
Speaker 2:Around there, yeah, wiping the floor with these kids.
Speaker 3:And then multivariable calculus by the end of high school.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that was, and then I ditched all of that for like religion.
Speaker 2:Well, this is why it's like it's weird in Erie how we we connect on some other deep levels. I likewise loved math. I don't know why most people are like that doesn't make sense. But here's something where it made sense to me. I was kind of Early Christian days, you know. You go. Sometimes people talk about like if you come with a Calvinist you're like the.
Speaker 1:Mad Calvin's disease or whatever.
Speaker 2:You're just like noxious because you're like oh, this is the facts and similar things. Early Christian days it was like, okay, let's have a Apologetics everywhere, let's argue things, because there's absolute truth, yeah, and if you're wrong, you're wrong. And so one of my pet peeves in life, which I've since repented of, was the phrase let's agree to disagree.
Speaker 1:Oh, I hated that phrase because I was like no, no, no.
Speaker 3:Either I'm wrong, someone's wrong here. We need to figure out who's wrong.
Speaker 2:Let's figure this out, and as I've got older life, I'm like you know. There's just so many things that can take up your time, and let's not spend all the time arguing.
Speaker 3:So this is because I'm like, yes, go. Once math started moving away from numbers, I liked it less. I mean so like I should have. So geometry was my least favorite, same Specifically because it started getting into. It started getting into proofs. And now I mean I like logic now and kind of precision in that kind of thing, in that kind of yeah, but to do proofs when I was most used to working with numbers.
Speaker 1:I was just like, I can't.
Speaker 3:I don't want to do all this, but yeah, man, and like, I had my apologetics phase, which was basically from like 15 to 19.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it was like it became my personality.
Speaker 2:Let me argue into the kingdom kicking and screaming, not cool. Humiliate you in front of your friends.
Speaker 3:I mean, I wasn't like.
Speaker 1:I didn't go that high. I got my case for Christ book.
Speaker 2:I got to tell you what to do, please struggle. Oh yeah, man. All about it bro? Oh my gosh, Same. I loved math because it was like it's like 2 plus 2 is always 4.
Speaker 2:And you say otherwise, we're living in crazy land, and so I just love having that. But also, likewise, I always knew I would be doing ministry since like eighth grade Cool. And so it was nice, because if anyone's ever been in ministry, things are not just like Put a quarter in the machine, you get this to pop out, and I remember just kind of like it's mostly as Jesus has the imagery of planting and putting seeds in the ground or watering, and other people do other parts of that. So you don't really ever, you don't usually, see all of the fruit in like this one lifespan or whatever, and so it's nice in some aspects, which is why I enjoy some outdoor work and things that you could accomplish with your own hands, and math was one of those beautiful things. Wow. We probably just like ostracized 70% of our audience. We do not like math. Shut up about the math, shut up about the math. Okay.
Speaker 3:There's a get to know you segment for you Slim. I love it.
Speaker 2:Malcolm, you open up.
Speaker 3:You got some personal childhood stories and stuff in there. Look at us.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. Hey everyone, thank you for listening in. We are always honored that you do listen in and so while you're listening today, would you give a rating and review? Or if something spurs in your head like, oh, I want to ask them about this or follow up to this, you may email in at hello at theologyandpiecescom. Hello at theologyandpiecescom, and some of you all have emailed in, even after our last couple.
Speaker 2:We did this series, kind of talking about all things and different in this realm, talking about LGBTQ and things like this, and we had a couple of questions coming in saying, yes, you guys talked on this for a couple episodes, but you did not yet speak into trans identities. That's right, and that is not because we were trying to avoid. It is actually we were shooting to get a guest speaker and an expert, just like we did with these other ones, to come on and we kept coming up short. So we are still aiming to bring on an expert to ask questions and have that conversation, and so the answer is yes, we are still intending to do that, but we're going to come back to it because we really want to give it the time it deserves, because there's lots of complexities and layers.
Speaker 3:But we might dip our toes in it today, when we talk about masculinity and femininity.
Speaker 2:We just might, but before we get there, you know what I think we need to do, malcolm. What do we need to do, slim? I think we need to spend a little bit of time looking at some terrible tweets. Oh boy, oh yeah, you just got to press that button and people think bad things are happening. But I swear to you they're not. But here's something bad. Oh, it's music.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Douglas Wilson. No, no, I'm going to explain to you what is meant by this. No quarter November, no, no conjunction with our good friends. That can't impress. What I wanted to do is depart from my usual pattern of being balanced and reasonable. We thought it would be a good idea to try to go through November with a series of blog posts touching on subjects of controversy. The intention is to simply state the truth without qualification and see how the general public likes them. Apples.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh.
Speaker 1:I think this is a necessary approach. I think we need to do this.
Speaker 2:Let me just pause. We're halfway through this little promo video.
Speaker 3:Something is on fire.
Speaker 2:What's on fire? Slim Doug Wilson.
Speaker 3:In the video.
Speaker 2:what's on fire? We'll call it a reformed-ish theologian. He's sitting in a field on a couch that is on fire. He's sitting on the couch. The other side of the couch is on fire. He's sitting there with his jeans and kind of looks like I don't know. Anyways, he's with big burly beer and he's smoking a cigar and he's talking to us, so just make sure you have that image in your brain while you're listening to this.
Speaker 1:no quarter November preview this because there's one of our local football coaches here and the police loose puts it. We need to find and unleash our inner pirate, and that's the problem with reformed evangelicals.
Speaker 1:These days, it's not the job of the preacher to be a firefighter out in the world. We're not supposed to be running around putting out other people's fires. We're supposed to be arsonists in the world. What so? Throughout the course of November 2018, check in to bloginmayblogdugwillscom and if you see a post that has no quarter November in the tag or it has a piratical flag of some sort, if you see one of those Piratical, it indicates that there will be some sort of unvarnished, unqualified piratical behavior. Stop.
Speaker 3:Alright, okay, you can stop this.
Speaker 2:Stop, stop, stop that is from At Canon Press.
Speaker 3:Why do you do this to me? What? What's wrong, malcolm? Remember you guys? Slim does not tell me these things before he's gonna do them. So Unvarnished, unqualified piratical behavior.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. So just so we're clear, this is for a A shtick. A theme that Doug Wilson and his crew are doing called no Quarter November. And if you look up what does no Quarter mean in the dictionary or Wikipedia, it's during a military conflict. It implies that combatants would not be taken prisoner but killed. So the theme for this Christian movement is that we are gonna have no Quarter. We are not gonna let anyone be taken prisoner. We are going to murder our enemies, our combatants, like pirates in our piranical flag and, by the way, you can purchase that flag on their website and there's other videos of Doug. This is just one, just one with him complaining of soft men and he can actually barely sit down on that flowery sofa. It's kind of hard to see him sit, to get down in that thing without grunted.
Speaker 3:They're manly grunts. Manly grunts, that's right.
Speaker 2:But also on their website. You too. Even to today they might be sold out, but you too could purchase a flamethrower from no Quarter, november and Doug Wilson and what is more manly Than a flamethrower? And it's only three under three thousand dollars. Twenty two thousand nine hundred nine nine dollars. Did you know you could just own a flamethrower, malcolm? There's no legal. Maybe there's some states. Some states might put some stuff here, but you know, texas doesn't have a problem with that. People just walking around for free with that stuff. Well, what do you think about that, malcolm? There's other videos of him pouring gas on the Open flames while smoking a cigar. How do you feel about this?
Speaker 3:Look I. There's no, there are already Like horrific things that he's said about women and also about race that I was, and he basically leads a. It's in many ways just kind of a cult of personality in in Moscow, idaho, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did you know there was a Moscow, Idaho.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I. I prefer to think as little about.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I can help out.
Speaker 3:What's good, thank you, thank you, slim.
Speaker 2:Thank you, slim for that but the quote that stood out to me from that Video was that it's not the job of the preacher to go around putting out other people's. Preachers are supposed to be arsonists in the world, so setting fires an interesting what? How would you interpret that? Malcolm, do you think like? Is there a generous way of doing that? I know he got roasted by Kevin DeYoung, who's also a person we're not throwing. Yeah, but yeah there.
Speaker 3:I mean, like Some people, I think some people are just kind of just controversialists and they and he very much and that's, and that's what this.
Speaker 3:That's what this is like. It's just and and then and then when people are like and and then when people get mad, you see that as kind of a, as a badge of, as a badge of honor for you. Yeah, it also ends up it leads to you getting more attention. So, like I mean, there, I guess they're just there there are some folks that just kind of thrive on that, on that particular type of atmosphere. Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't, I don't see anything. I don't see anything particularly Christlike about Seeking to go out and set fires, and he does that, though I feel like that's so.
Speaker 2:He's like saying that, but that's what he does and it's like he goes out and stirs up trouble as much as possible, which is what no quarter November is supposed to be. I mean, that's basically just what we are not going to play nice, we are going to speak. Unvarnished, unqualified someone in the the comments behind the video is like you know we're, you know we're, we're called to deliver haymakers All right.
Speaker 3:Punch the people in the face right.
Speaker 2:All right, and so this is what I think, what you get when you get like you're into that, let's you know it's the call. This is this is that I think the argument would be? This is love just speaking truth and In the form of haymakers. But you know you're, you know you're following in good stuff.
Speaker 3:I gotta read, I gotta read between the lines to see that seems to be that what you're putting out the front, oh the haymakers, not, not, not, love right.
Speaker 2:But you know you're on the right side when, Under this tweet here, you have a little person you might have heard from before. Oh no, Pastor Mark Driscoll. Oh with a. Markie mark him of someone running down a field with a flamethrower saying I ain't playing. So he driscoll's in support of Wilson. Big surprise.
Speaker 3:Okay right. Okay.
Speaker 2:Next terrible tweet. That was. That was the end of our tear.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:All right, because we have. We have some things to talk about. What we are gonna be talking about today, down a business. We are talking about biblical Masculinity and femininity. Femininity, that's a hard word For men and anything stop.
Speaker 1:Why are we talking about this, malcolm?
Speaker 2:Well, here's why, because? Because there is a war out there on manhood, there's a war on men. Man, like our culture, is trying to eliminate manhood. It's true, do you agree?
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, I'm all about yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like when you think of the word manly. What do you think of? Oh, yeah, um, you think of axe throwing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do you think of, like, people who love sports shopping, shopping, wood shopping, wood working out, working out, you know. Yeah, flame throwing flame throwers yeah, man, that's yeah. Uh-huh Beards yeah for sure. And if you don't have those, yeah I.
Speaker 2:There's some articles out there that suggests whether you are a man. You know.
Speaker 3:It's, it's up for grabs.
Speaker 2:Who do you, who would you think, is the leader Speaking into this world to young men?
Speaker 3:Oh, I don't know who do guys these days? I'll tell you who they listen to who they listen to slow.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'll tell you who. Who. Who does Speak into these, and I don't. I'm not saying I'm I it's good or bad. In fact, I don't think it's great. I Jordan Peterson okay, I was gonna mention Jordan Peterson, but he has a lot to say about masculinity, uh-huh, and so does Joe Rogan. He seems to have a sizable podcast but, also Boys. Men flock to hear them.
Speaker 2:Yeah because they have at least kind of two different Expressions of what I think they would say manhood is. But I think Joe Rogan feels like a lot of people in, at least in Texas, have like that form of what it, what it means to be manly and it's just kind of MMA.
Speaker 2:Yeah and it's kind of intense, it's, it's it's a lot of this no quarter November type kind of alpha male. In fact, there are Christians who would say, like that's what Christian you know, like that's what, that's what masculinity is is to be an alpha male, not a beta male, and and so that I think I do think there are many in our churches concerned that we are losing Our, our boys, to the, to this cultural current and and not becoming men. This is, this is what Driscoll Preached on a lot. I mean he was like boys, you need to get out of your, your parents basement, stop playing video games, get a job, marry a woman and contribute to society. A bunch of kids.
Speaker 3:That's another part of his yes, and he gets into gross detail of the process of yeah, I don't need to right.
Speaker 2:And so there's this, this view, and some that's like, yeah, I think that's good to not, you know, always live in your parents basement, I think.
Speaker 3:I think Vocation are good things, it's true, although there are also there are also elements of the economy that make it much more affordable for you to live with your yeah, you to live with your parents longer because of the housing market, but that's the side point, yeah, so point and All of this would be just like like I don't ever think of, like I personally don't listen to.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I've ever listened to Jordan Peterson and I may have listened like one Joe Rogan podcast because the interview Billy Corgan and I love the smash, but in terms of otherwise I it's not something that I personally am interested, and so it's not as if I'm like wanting to go out on a limb and go. These people have the wrong view of masculinity. I think the reason and also the reason we're talking about it on our podcast, theology in pieces, is because you have probably been told that there is a biblical Masculinity and a biblical femininity, and I think that's where we get into some trouble. And so, just out of curiosity, I was trying to find who are the experts on biblical masculinity to tell us about what it is. And and there is actually a group called the Council on biblical manhood and womanhood. You might have heard of it. This group Argues a lot about what it is to be a man, what it is to be a woman, and there is a there's a certain professor here at Baylor who's written some, some good stuff of recovering from biblical manhood and womanhood With that doctor, beth Dowson bar. But there's an article we can share it, in the notes From the CBMW that talks about biblical masculinity and this part, this, this person says the Masculinity are these four things, it's the four Ps of masculinity and I just I want to hear your thoughts if you would consider this to be true, malcolm.
Speaker 2:The four Ps of masculinity are to provide, to protect, to pastor and to please, and so it's the. What is it? What does it mean to be masculine? It it's to provide, protect, pastor and please. And they go into. You know the expressions of this and I go yeah, yeah, you, you respond, you know Probably questions. I'm guessing part, well, part of it is.
Speaker 3:And we have to. This is just part of the broader conversation, because I have an issue with with the project, the project in the in the in the first place, and Normally I guess I normally wait to wait to put all my cards on the table. But I'll pull this you asked for my response. I gotta put all the all the cards on the table. Now there's just, there's very little, if any.
Speaker 2:Huh don't, don't put the cards on the table yet. Just respond to that just respond to that. Okay, fine, oh is this man, is this male? Only no characteristics? Obviously not.
Speaker 3:Um females shouldn't provide protect pastor or please, no, those are, those are all things. That. Those are all things that women, that that women can and should do too and okay, so that's okay.
Speaker 2:That's good human things to do. That's one article, another article from the website, a celebration of biblical masculinity, and this is written by a woman her name is Gloria Furman and her argument for what biblical masculinity is. Masculinity is Unashamed. The masculinity I appreciate as a wife is a far greater value than the wealth earning power. It's a masculinity that is unashamed of the gospel, which is the power of God.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm unashamed masculinity has less to do with how many horses a man owns or how fast he can run. Unashamed masculinity is about what a man does with the gospel.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, Okay, I mean, yeah, Christian men should be on a shame of the gospel. Christian women should be on a shame of the gospel too.
Speaker 2:It's just so yeah because is Romans, was only written to men.
Speaker 3:Also like also also.
Speaker 3:This is a bigger issue that we're going to have to. It's a bigger issue that we're going to have to talk about broadly and it's the use of the descriptor biblical, biblical, yep and so like, and look y'all everybody listening. You all know how committed I am specifically to the authority of scripture, so that's not the issue here. The issue here is when people want to put the term biblical before what are ultimately cultural expressions, and they want to do so in such a way that doesn't look at the Bible canonically. It looks at the Bible as like a bunch of individual kind of things. Because the fact of the matter is that the way that quote unquote manhood or quote unquote womanhood is depicted in the scriptures, it's depicted in all of its complexity. You've got men who do a bunch of different things and you see women who do a bunch of different things, and there is this is the card I have to there is nothing definite. There's nothing definitional in the scriptures about what it means to be a quote unquote man or woman in the sense that goes beyond the biological. There are no, there is no character separation between men and women such that, well, women are supposed to be gentle and men are, or things like that, and we'll probably talk later about the fact that even if you're looking for gender-specific commands, you find very few of them. But if we talk about them, I'll talk about the context for those when they do show up. But there's this, even the beginning of the asking of that question what it means, what biblical manhood and biblical womanhood are it starts from, I guess, this assumption, this assumption that the Bible is going to tell us what those things are. In asking the question, it's not an option to say, well, the Bible is not going to give me an answer to this, so whatever I see there, I have to basically cram it into this thing. Or you could just say, well, no, the Bible doesn't actually tell me that. Just in some circles there is an allergy to just saying it doesn't seem to be the case that the Bible is concerned with this. I can be concerned with it and I can seek to live To answer a particular question christianly. But it's like the way that I was thinking about this Just had this academic conference.
Speaker 3:We were talking about this big 550-page book, biblical Critical Theory, and this big book is about how the Bible actually offers an intellectual alternative to critical theory and stuff like that. But one of the things that I was just kind of thinking through as we were discussing it because it was like a three-hour panel that I was on but part of my issue is putting that descriptor biblical before that response, because the fact of the matter is that we want to think about these things as Christians, which means we're thinking about them in the context of the scriptures as well as in the context of the people of God who have gathered around those scriptures and the people of God who have had to work in contexts that are beyond the very specific contexts of scripture but who are still seeking to, by the Holy Spirit, live in the way that Christ has called us to live. And so just kind of biblical as a descriptor is going to be insufficient for us to think through what it actually means to live in the world that we live in.
Speaker 2:So anyway, Let me give you one more article, so this one.
Speaker 2:Oh, this one's fun. So those first two were from the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womathood, cbmworg. This is from our good friends at Desire and God and this is from a couple years ago and it was an article responding to an advertisement from Gillette. If you remember this ad and the video is of all of these people saying, well, boys will be boys, boys will be boys. And it was critiquing Gillette, was critiquing how we've raised kids to just say like no, it's okay, they can be bullies, they can be chauvinistic, they can be oppressive and just say boys will be boys. Anyways, it was a powerful ad and I think anyone seen it goes yeah, we should do better as a society, as men. But Reformed Christians from this particular camp, from Desire and God, saw this as a shot at masculinity, oh dear. And they were responding to it, the kind of intro here. And then they thought you know what? Let me pit this against the dockers the pants, the dockers manifesto campaign, and they had a man-ifesto campaign.
Speaker 2:And here's what the dockers manifesto campaign said, and it says once upon a time, men wore pants and wore them. Well, back in the day, women rarely had to open doors and little old ladies never crossed the street alone. Men took charge because that's what they did, but somewhere along the way the world decided it no longer needed men. Disco by disco, latte by foamy nonfat latte, men were stripped of their khakis and left stranded on the road between boyhood and androgyny.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:It continues, but today there are questions our genderless society has no answers for. The world sits idly by and cities crumble.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Children misbehave and those little old ladies remain on one side of the street.
Speaker 3:Oh dear.
Speaker 2:For the first time since bad guys, we need heroes, we need grownups, we need men to put down the plastic fork, step away from the salad bar oh shit and to tie the world from the tracks of complacency. Wow, it's time to get your hands dirty. It's time to answer the call of manhood. It's time to wear the pants. Desiring God quotes this we go sell some jeans, that's what I hear from doctors.
Speaker 3:We go sell some pants and some khakis.
Speaker 2:Desiring God hears that it goes, the pants company rightly observes it's khaki time that cities crumble without men living as men, all right, and so my question is what does it mean for men to live as men, to not drink foamy lattes and to use plastic forks, and to wear pants, and to wear pants clearly?
Speaker 3:Which I am doing.
Speaker 2:Currently doing because it's cold outside. But they go on and they say they're lamenting our society. This is from Desiring God. Instead, our society celebrates what Paul calls literally soft men, a group that will not enter the kingdom of God, and they're quoting 1 Corinthians 6, 9. Okay, you're translating that and you're now referring it to. What does that mean for you? A discomfort at this will not inherit. The kingdom version of manliness is exactly a symptom of what the APA finds malignant in traditional manhood. But as much as the APA protested as hate speech, the effamint shall not enter the kingdom of God and it's unloving to say so. What, what? They go on. While men who brutalize and manipulate represent one form of perversion, the kind companies now put their dollars into supporting men who sit passive, complacent and spiritually, emotionally frail represent another, and so also do men who are bell against their sex by acting like women. Like what?
Speaker 2:I said any given acting like women any given time, any given time or period.
Speaker 3:What? What it means, to quote unquote act like a woman.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, so belittling I. What is? That's a lot? You think that's biblical?
Speaker 3:That's a lot man.
Speaker 2:That's a lot. It goes on. David Mathis rightly tells us that the strongest men are gentle, but do not hear him saying they are soft, fragile, weak or effamint. They do not effeminate, thank you. They do not faint in the day of adversity. They dress for war every day against forces of evil. They are sacrificial initiators, not limp deferers. Men who charge against the enemy gates, leading from the front and refusing to take cover behind their wives and children. They lead, they protect, they initiate, they love, they sacrifice, they work, they worship. They are men. Godly men are neither severe nor effeminate. They have a sword, but use it against the dragon, not the princess in the castle.
Speaker 1:Hmm.
Speaker 3:Ahhhh, this is. I mean there's nothing, I mean there's not really anything distinctly, really distinctly Christian about that. Oh gosh, in the sense that these kind of these pictures of masculinity are, I mean, all of our, all of our definitions in this realm end up end up boiling down to particular cultural preferences, because we can also find other cultures around the world that frame, that frame masculinity and femininity differently, because that's the kind of category masculinity and femininity are.
Speaker 2:So you're saying? You're saying masculinity and femininity are socialized.
Speaker 3:Yes, which?
Speaker 2:could be radical Could be, I guess. I told.
Speaker 3:I was joking with Slim. This is actually going to be our most controversial episode yet.
Speaker 2:But I want to say just imagine today what we think manhood is today versus what I grew up in seeing what manhood was. So when I grew up in the 80s yes, a child of the 80s manhood was Arnold Schwarzenegger in Predator and him and some other bodybuilders going into the jungle and just shooting tons of people just willy nilly.
Speaker 2:No, no, care for whether these are human beings or not. Like it was. Just like. Everyone's blown up, everyone's died, you're like, and his muscles are, you're like. There's no acting, it's just him standing there, flexing and shooting.
Speaker 3:You're like, yes, that's good acting right there.
Speaker 2:As a kid I loved it. I was like that is it. And then, as a kid also, one of my heroes was Hulk Hogan. Malcolm sent me a gift today and he didn't realize that was my guy. I went and saw him in person. Oh man, we got backstage passes, which is kind of weird when you're a kid and you go to see backstage past Hulk Hogan right after he wrestles, and they lather them up with all this oil, but he's also just a man in a yellow speedo.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's pretty and so like kind of aggressive.
Speaker 2:The height of a kid to where a grown man is standing, like the sight line is yeah, that's not a yeah.
Speaker 3:that's not a yeah, anyways.
Speaker 2:I got to meet him in person, but he's the guy who's just like you guys. Do you remember the song? It's like I am a real American Fight for the rights of every man.
Speaker 3:That's all you Slim. That's all you bro. But that was masculinity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that is not today. People wouldn't today go like that's cheesy, that's, that's stupid.
Speaker 3:Look, I think about what, what like, what funk artists were wearing back in like the sixties and seventies, and if.
Speaker 3:I was. If I was, if I was wearing some of that stuff, people wouldn't see that as masculine now. But that was the height of masculine. You got folks who are at the height of quote unquote masculinity at that at that point. But I mean, well, also, I mean these, these trends, these trends, these trends shift, I mean even, I mean you know, so, like as one example there's there. There was a shift back in I think it was in the early 20th century, when, when blue became a color of masculinity as opposed to, as opposed to pink, when, when, when, you know, before then it was pink, but you, but you, but you can, but you can trace that. You can trace that back to moves in the fashion industry, which means political economy. Get the sound effect.
Speaker 2:There you go. I had it turned out Sorry.
Speaker 3:I signaled him and everything.
Speaker 3:I was like all like it's coming, but which is, which is, which is to say, these are, these are not. You know, these are, these are, these are not, these are not assumptions that are that are, that are, that are entirely benign. So this is to go. So, so I was gonna, I was gonna bring this in. So my favorite, basically one of my favorite thinkers on race, his name is Adolf Reed Jr, and and he calls, he calls race what he, he, he, he calls it a, an, an ideology of a scriptive difference, and by that what he, what he means is and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll pull this sentence ideologies of, of, of, of, of ascriptive difference, helps us stabilize a social order by legitimizing its hierarchies of wealth, power and privilege, including its, so including its social division of labor as the natural order of things. And so race. Race is one of these things, but gender is also, but gender also ends up functioning as one of these things too, where we have these pictures of masculinity and femininity, that that, where they're, where their ultimate purpose is, is to, is to maintain particular structures, not just structures of power, but even, but, even, but even labor, but even labor structures, and things like that. So, for example, when we, when we, when we end up framing, for example, the care of children as as quote, unquote women's, as quote, unquote women's work, that is that, that, that that's also a like, that's also like a labor market decision, because it's it's, it's incredibly valuable, it's incredibly valuable work, but the market doesn't value it at all. Really, all right, at least it might, at least it might not in your family. But then you also recognize well how expensive day like daycares are and stuff like that. So, like there is a sense in which the market does, does value it. It's one of these weird, one of those, one of those kind of one of those kind of weird things. But what, but? But?
Speaker 3:But even that, even that framing of particular work as quote, unquote women's work, um, is something that, like, I mean it's, it's, it's developed over time, but often, um, its function was basically to keep women in positions of essentially political subjugation, um, where you know where you can, you couldn't own property, couldn't have a credit card in your own name for the longest time, like like uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh and all those kinds of things. Not because I mean there's nothing biblical or anything about that, it's just well, the people who are in charge want to stay in charge, um, which is just kind of a general. That's just kind of a general way that we a way, that way that we operate. But often our narratives about what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, don't they're they, they, they, they happen to mesh. They happen to mesh with a status quo that allows things to kind of just remain as they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's, you're making the point that it's, it's a, it's a socialized, and some, some are steering the ship to socialize Um, and the point about the, the difference between today we think pink, we think girl, we think blue, we think boys, we have gender reveal parties, and this is, you know, they have, you know, the, the cloud of whatever, or the whatever Um, and the article Malcolm's referring to is from the ladies home journal in 1918, and it said pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, which, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.
Speaker 2:Uh, this is from 1918. And just to think of how much that has shifted today. So if you have a child, a boy, who wants to wear pink, and you go, I don't know, is that, is that like right? And so we're seeing how it some of these things are, are socialized, um, and so then, my some. Honestly, the reason that we were having this conversation was, um, two weeks ago, um, um, dr Beth Elson bar invited us to go, uh, to a a a reading um of Zachary Wagner's um new book at at Truett, for this new book called non-toxic masculinity, and uh.
Speaker 2:I got to go to it and uh and it was. It was wonderful hearing and I, but I was, I was skeptical, I was so skeptical I did not even want to go Um, but I'm glad I did, but going into it I was very like another book on masculinity because of what we've just said. I've it seems like every time I see someone say biblical masculinity or biblical femininity, you're just putting the word biblical in front of it to kind of christen what you want to talk about.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:When it's like that has actually zero to do with what it means to be male or female.
Speaker 1:That's just what it means to be human.
Speaker 2:And so I was really skeptical going into this. Um, but his book and and and and in the, in the seminar or whatever, um, he did a great job of just kind of saying, like you know, he grew up in the, in the age similar, I think, age is me Um, when, um, I kissed dating goodbye, was was huge Um, and and people were saying, like this is what it means to to kind of um, you know, to be a man in this time. Uh, also, there was another book that was huge during that time every man's battle.
Speaker 2:And that was a huge one and that I feel like I've done. I've led Bible studies, uh, off of our book, studies off of, and just realizing how, how toxic that book had become. Um, cause it, it almost. It puts forth that this is every man's battle. Is this this, this battle of lust? And it all, basically put it so much strong, so strongly in front of us that said like and if you don't struggle with this, then then maybe you're not wired correctly.
Speaker 1:And so it almost like, but not. And then?
Speaker 2:also and then, also because it's such every man's battle, it's such a given. There is no, there's really not a lot of hope to actually defeat these battles. Um and so it almost dooms you from the beginning. And so he talked about those and I was like, okay, all right, I'm your, your, your. You're beginning to give me some trust because you're critiquing the things that I'm like have made me doubt there's any any way to even speak into these issues.
Speaker 2:And one book. He didn't, he didn't, he didn't reference that I so, after, you know, during the Q and a time I was like, well, one book that I also read during that time was a book called wild at heart. Um, and John Etheridge, and I I love now that I loved as a kid cause it was like I don't know if you want to, I'm. I was kind of stereotypical male in that time where I was like, yeah, I want to be outside. I wanted like, yeah, to be. You know what our society says, what male is, whatever, um. But there's this quote from that book and it says deep in the heart, uh, deep in his heart, every man longs for a battle to fight an adventure to live in, a beauty to rescue, and later in life I look back on this and I go, oh, is this biblical, is this true?
Speaker 2:Cause not every man has these things deep in this heart. And also a beauty to rescue seems to put uh, women in a, in a sense, where they need, are needed, to be rescued.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a. There's a nice kind of Victorian quality to that, where the the woman is in this position of of helplessness and and needs needs a man to rescue her, and all this kind of stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, anyways, I it was fascinating Then. Then I, I meet with Malcolm the next day and we were talking about this, and I'm just like man. So what do we say? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What can you say? Because it seems like everything we've tried to say is really just true of both men and women. Um, and this is where I think it's important for us to say like I do believe God, like Genesis one that God created male and female, Male and female.
Speaker 2:You know if you have the presence of the white chromosome, it distinguishes males from females.
Speaker 3:You got biological differences.
Speaker 2:Right, so there's these hormonal differences. And also just like if you were to come over to my house for 10 minutes, versus going to Malcolm's house for 10 minutes.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, oh look, and interacting with my boys versus his girls, oh for sure.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, for sure, things are very different.
Speaker 3:Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2:I think I heard like Nate Bargatzi talk about this and think he has a girl. He's a comedian and he talks about how, like it's not fair when he offered to watch his friend's kid, versus them watching his kid. He's like I should get seven free baby cities for every one I give to you, because your kid is a boy and he's wild. Oh yeah, and I do think there also like, just like, like biologically, there's more testosterone levels on average.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I have an estrogen. I have an estrogen filled home.
Speaker 2:So there's that, and so there are certain distinctions like this that are generally true and there are certain distinctions we can talk about like, just like biological differences of like there is a whole spectrum of between one woman and another woman. But on average there is a physical difference between men and women but like you could have someone the height of our wives or you could have Brittany Griner right, like you could have. There's a whole spectrum there, wide range.
Speaker 2:So why are we gonna try to say something is biblically you know true, about something in this range, when there's such a range in there and yet there are some distinctions? But, other than naming some of those biological distinctions, how do we say what is biblical, masculinity versus femininity? Because someone might then go well, okay, let's look at Proverbs 31. That is the picture of biblical womanhood to have the woman who is an excellent wife, and so I think Proverbs 31 is a beautiful picture. So I'm pro Proverbs 31. But what part of Proverbs 31 do you wanna talk about? Because, yes, it does picture, you know, this woman who's kind of this picture of kind of the blessed life, but also, near the end, she starts tapping into kind of these entrepreneurial skills and selling linens and garments and profits and to buy a field like, is that okay? What about? Like I used to have a sticker on my laptop that was like biblical womanhood and it's a picture of a tent peg going through a skull from judges and I was like wow, and Cicero, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what about the unmarried businesswoman Lydia in Acts 16? Like, what are we saying? Is biblical womanhood contrasted with masculinity? And there's different pictures of masculinity in the Bible. Like John, the beloved apostle, is laying across Jesus' lap, like at one point you're like, ah, that seems a little uncomfortable. Like, uh-huh, david, yes, is a warrior, but he's also writing these love songs, right? And so I don't know. I say all this to be like what can you say on these things? And then I'm like, what's the point of even having these man's retreats and I used to lead, I mean, I led those for our youth and I'm like, oh gosh.
Speaker 3:I think those are important, by the way, which we'll talk about.
Speaker 2:And then I also led at a church before kind of there was a the dude's guide to manhood book study. I look back at that guy like, oh my gosh. So I just have so much to repent of that I've perpetuated in this realm of just baptizing cultural stereotypes and saying this is what it means to be a biblical man, and it's just like, goodness gracious, I just. I think it's like a warning for all of us to remember. We are just as much tempted to go to be in the current of our culture and we think we're leading out against the culture and yet we are being swept away by it. And so I don't know, I sort of like, do you have to go to Genesis to go like what does it look like for Adam and Eve?
Speaker 3:And I told you this before I wanted to title our sermon series on the Sermon on the Mount Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, because I think that's what it is. The Christian man is called to look like Christ. The Christian woman is called to look like Christ. Both of us, in being created in the image of God, are being conformed to Christ's image, and so the fact of the matter is like even the. So this is where I'll talk about kind of the, the gender specific commands that we end up seeing in scripture, the few of them that we find so like, for example, specific commands to fathers or to husbands, or to wives or mothers, those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:So, for example, in Colossians three, where you have, for example, wives, submit yourself to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. Children obey your parents. Fathers, do not embitter your children or they'll become discouraged. This kind of thing. And this will also be my answer to why I think actually men's retreats and women's retreats are actually important. Because the fact of the matter is is that, given this particular cultural setting that we're in, we are, men, are bombarded with a number of messages about what it means to be a man On a regular basis, you're bombarded with those images.
Speaker 3:Women are also bombarded with images of what it means to be a woman and what, but what we have to do as the body of Christ is constantly point each of us to Christ. So men need to be aware of the ways in which the world that they're in is trying to shape them, specifically in telling them what it means to be a man, and we, as Christian brothers and sisters, need to continue to encourage one another. Look, that's actually what the world says about manhood, this is what. And then point to Jesus and say, actually, this is what we're supposed to be conforming to. Similarly, for women, there are gonna be these, there are gonna be these, these, these, these images and narratives that are gonna be fed, these particular images and narratives that are gonna be fed to you, and and and our, and our response as brothers and sisters has to be to wisely notice those things and also say, hey, but God is calling us to this, pointing to Christ, and so, and so it's one of these things where you know you're not gonna find a scripture that says, hey, if you, if you are a man, do these things, or if you are a woman, do these things or look this way.
Speaker 3:No, when Paul, when sorry when Jesus, when Jesus preaches the Sermon on the Mount and gives, for example, the Beatitudes which, taken together, are essentially the picture of the Christian, and when he gives the, the, the, the, the, the, the commands that fall, that follow through in the, in the Sermon on the Mount, those things are not, they're not gender specific. Christlikeness is not a gender specific reality. Yeah, and so and so, that, like that's and that and that's, at least for the, for the church, for the church as, as a, as a counter-cultural institution, if you want to, if you want to call it, if you want to call it that. That's one of the ways in which we, we, we bear witness to the logic of the kingdom of God is that these, these categories that we have largely created in order to maintain dominance, which is the, that's the role that gender often plays, the role that race plays, all these other all these, all these other things we we have to in in order for us to evacuate them of their diminutive and exploitative power.
Speaker 3:We have to do so explicitly. So it means that, like from pulpits, we need to be able to say look, this is what the world tells you. You need to be, to be a man or to be a woman, this is what Jesus is telling us to. This is how Jesus is, is calling us to be, to be Christ-like, because that's what's most important in all, in all of our spaces and also, just if we think about ourselves in general, christ-likeness is the most important thing that all of us need, that all of us need to be called to. I doesn't, it doesn't, and this is, and this will be the last, this will be the last thing Goes back to the we're, we're, we're not, we're not going to have the, the, the, the transgender conversation, quite, quite, quite yet, but a lot but, but, but.
Speaker 3:Pieces of what ends up feeding particularly gender dysphoria and folks is the fact that everybody is struggling with these narratives of what it means to be masculine and feminine. And so, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're a natal, well, I'll say, I'll say, I'll say a natal, a natal male, and you like, let's say, ballet, a theater or whatever, and I say this as a as a theater kid, as a theater kid myself, and you're, and you're just constantly told well, that's feminine, that's feminine, that's feminine. One of the responses to that could be well, maybe I'm a girl then, and then that but but, but. But. But some of these, but some of these, some of these struggles, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not narrowing the experience of gender dysphoria to just this, but I, but what? But what? I? But what I do want to say is that we are, we are all battling with a number of cultural narratives as to what it means to be masculine, and feminine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, and, and, and. If we don't have, if we don't have a framework to actually understand what of this is actually imposed on me from out, from outside, then then that leads to I mean, it leads to existential crises for folks. Yeah, Deep existential crises for folks.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's why I think this is why one of the reasons I did want to talk about it, because I just I feel like there are so many struggling, not just in our, in our, in our you know current, you know our body here in Waco, but just in our, in our city, in our in our world. This is, this is the because those, those narratives are just clashing so much with our lived realities of going like well, what is it Like?
Speaker 2:is this what it means to be a man, to be the Schwarzenegger type? I don't find myself like that, am I not? Am I not doing it right and then feeling the shame of that?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And constantly battling what is, and we're just we're battling cultural narratives that be impressed upon us. And so then, what? What does it mean to be a man? But I'm also asking that, as a father with, with three boys going like how do I raise them? What do I raise?
Speaker 3:Yeah To be. Think about it with my daughters.
Speaker 2:To be men and I'm like and I want it to be a good thing.
Speaker 3:Here's the thing. Okay, so here, and this is a. This is a point in it's actually. Oh, I was just looking at the. Oh, what's her turn? Hold on, hold on.
Speaker 2:While you're looking that up, one other passage that you could cite where there are some gender-specific commands is Titus 2. And Titus 2 talks about teach older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, sound and faith in love and endurance. And so older men this is what you do, but that's not saying that's not true for older women as well to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, sound and faith in love and endurance. So the next verse likewise teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderous or addicted to much wine. You say, okay, that's only for older women. So, men, go have a blast, have a lot of wine. You can slander whoever.
Speaker 2:Then it says teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children. You say, okay, well, I think men could urge their younger husbands to love their wives and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and I think even that busy at home could be. You say well, culturally, this is how this society works. To be kind, I mean good, men are off the hook. They don't have to be kind. Just because it's saying teach the older women doesn't mean this is only, but he's speaking to this culture here.
Speaker 2:I think you also think of when Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 11, about men with it's like a shame that they would have long hair, and you go well, there's a lot there to unpack, because I'm pretty sure Paul took a Nazarene vow and had long hair himself, so he would have had really long hair. Saying this is a shame for them to prophesy this way, you're like well, there's probably a lot more context. We got to unpack with that, and so I just think there's so many times that we're not trying to wash away any of these commands. We're trying to be faithful, like what does the scripture actually tell?
Speaker 3:us. Yeah, here's my controversial statement of the day. So you made the reference to raising your sons to be men. Fact of the matter is they're going to be men. Your particular raising of them is not going to make them like that's not a yes, you're a man, no, you're not a man.
Speaker 2:They're going to be.
Speaker 3:Good, good, they're going to be. Well, no, it's just that it's what you're attempting to train them is how they are going to be men in the world. Yeah, similarly for me and my daughters is how are you going to be women in the world? And the answer to that ought to be with Christlikeness. This is in so Rachel Greenmiller's book Beyond Authority and Submission. I just screwed her on on on the on the ordination of women, but one of the points that she makes is like, look, like that you being a man or woman, like, that's just a, that's just a kind of a biological fact about who you are. Now the question of actually how you operate in the world, that's another set. That's another set of questions to which the answer ought to be Christlikeness, but like.
Speaker 3:But this isn't. This isn't a matter of us kind of going down, going down the rabbit hole, like, oh, is it all right? Are you are, are you a real man, or you are real Whatever? No, look, what is most important is that you are, is, that is, is is Christlikeness, and so and so for, so, so, even as I think about you know, as I think about my you know, think about it in the, in the raising of my, in the raising of my daughters, the, the, the, the model, the model is always Christ, and the model would be Christ if I had sons, and, and.
Speaker 3:And that that requires, first of all, it requires a little more work, because it means that there aren't kind of cultural narratives that you can just kind of sit in and be like oh well, you know, my child is going in this direction with their interests so like, so few, like no, no, no, like all in, in, in, in, in in. All of these things are our guidance of, particularly our children, is towards Christlikeness, which is always in many ways going to be counter to their kind of initial impulses or whatever. And so those struggles are going to look different, you know, for, for you, with your boys as they go through puberty and stuff like that, like they're going to be different questions Like, yeah, I'll be rough.
Speaker 2:I mean for me.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think about why I mean, but I'm going to have a house full of girls going through that stuff and doesn't really can deal with it. Most of that you get yourself in trouble here, just kidding, just kidding, so I'm joking.
Speaker 2:So to say it this way yeah men are not commanded to be masculine and women are not commanded to be feminine. We are commanded to be godly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and also like I don't really know what like all masculine means is kind of of or pertaining to men and manhood, so like, so, like it's all, like it's already so, so. So it's not it's. It's. It's kind of that men aren't called to be masculine, kind of, but like it's also like those. Those terms are so nebulous that whatever meaning we actually place into them is not. It's not from the scriptures, it's from other stuff. This is where I get back to this, this descriptive difference thing. It's like it's. It's. It's to a certain extent like race, in the sense that it only has meaning because we put meaning, we put particular meanings into it and therefore you can't take yourself out of the society.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you have to acknowledge the meaning, not necessarily support it, but yeah.
Speaker 3:So, like I mean, I, would, you know, I, I would even resist. I think I would. I personally would, would resist even using, even in some ways using the terms masculine and feminine as as kind of oh gosh, what's the word I'm looking for? Oh, man, basically as things to shoot for, oh God, oh, as as aspirational. I would see masculine, masculine and feminine as as kind of aspirational ideas. The old, the image that we need to put in front of everyone that we come into contact with, particularly in the body of Christ, is the image of Christ, not this idealized, this idealized man or idealized woman that you know. Men need to be looking at this, women need to be looking at this. No, everybody needs to have their eyes refocused on Jesus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, yeah, jesus, and this is, this is where I, like, I'm, I've, I've found that all of the all the books on masculine and feminine just fall short because they they keep putting your eyes off of Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they're saying no, this is what it is to be a man You're like. This feels like fluff. This is not substantive.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, when it is actually substantive, it's well, that's also a call for men and women, it's not? So why? Why are you saying this is masculine? It's not a biblical masculinity, you know, and this is actually just the call for all of us. And which is where I feel like all of that stuff falls so flat, and I think it, I mean, I get it. There's the, the fear that our society is changing.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 2:And that we go back to this, this more blissful season in life, when, when doctors would tell us that men would be men and society's always changed.
Speaker 3:But what?
Speaker 2:was society so good before? And so this is where I'm like OK, I'll take my, my, my latte, nonfat foamy latte.
Speaker 3:Hey man, if you're into foaming latte is cool. I you know when, when, when I was personally yeah, I mean I don't either, but you know that's because I'm a man, but I got to get out.
Speaker 2:Well, that's all folks Jokes jokes when?
Speaker 3:so, when I was a grad, so in my MDiv, and in the first, I mean for five years, the PhD Desiree was the breadwinner in our family. Did that make me less of a man? No, I was still just as much of a man. Because, like, because, whether or not, because, because, because, and this is and this is and you know I'm getting some people's business whether or not, whether or not I am the primary breadwinner in my family is not an indication of my manhood.
Speaker 3:It's just not and and and the and the sense in which people want to, and this is and this is, and this is one thing that I think, that I think stresses I mean, it stresses a lot of people, stresses a lot of people out. But if we understand, if we're understanding marriage as a, as a, as a one, as a one flesh union, particularly, particularly, yeah, it's a, it's a partnership, yeah, and so there is, there is not this exclusive, there's not this exclusive male expectation, and people will like to use that, oh, that text, which text is? The one who doesn't provide for their, for their family, is worse than an unbeliever.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 3:And as though that is a gender, as though that's a gender specific.
Speaker 2:I was going to say the same thing about which it's not second, that's alone. And there's this commands like for even when we were with you, we gave you this rule the one who is unwilling to work shall not eat. Yeah, and I'm like and they might use that to say like, see, boys need to get off of the couch and go to work.
Speaker 3:And I'm like well, true, yeah, yes, there's nothing about being a man or a woman in that text. This is just contribute to your community.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is what this is nothing gendered, but, but it's, but it, but it goes into this deeper impulse of like thinking that we should. This is this the other thing. We think that we should have an answer to that question of what it means to be a man or a woman and like, and the only the only reason that we think that that's an important question is because we've been told that it's an important question and we haven't been told by the Bible that it's an important question and so like. So that's the other.
Speaker 2:Do you think it's because we're seeing, I think, statistically in churches that there are less men involved in these things? And so that's where I like, like the Driscoll's and the you know whatever his name is, doug Wilson, wilson types are going like let's say, let's say, let's say, let's say, let's get men back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I think we'll see, and that that, that, if that is the issue, then deal with that issue.
Speaker 3:So, for example, the leading cause of death for men between the ages of 14 and 44, besides accidents is suicide.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's an issue, that's a huge issue and we need to find, like, and we need to, and we need to find out what's going on, because, like, there is so, so, so, so so, as much as some people may think it's overblown, that there's kind of a war on men or whatever, no, like, that's, like, that's something that's actually happening. That's, that's, that's true. And if we are to love, and there, and there are, and there are particular struggles that women in the society are going through to, if we're to love, if we're to love our neighbors and brothers and sisters, well then, these are realities that we have to not only name but actually, but actually address. And but the way to address it is not by creating this image of masculinity or this image of, or this image of of femininity, in the same way that, like, I don't think the way to, I don't think the way to battle the racial wealth gap or anything like that, is just to dig deeper into racial identity.
Speaker 1:I think you have to make.
Speaker 3:There are, there are bigger, there are bigger moves of economic solidarity that are, that are necessary. And similarly, here, the way to the way to fight those crises is not just by digging into a particular understanding of what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman, but to look at the ways in which society grinds people down and to fight those, to fight those things. And so, because I, I, I imagine one of the things that grinds these boys and men down is this is what what society is telling me a man is. I'm not, I'm not those, I'm not those things. When, when, when, when, when you have an economy that makes it more difficult to buy a house and reach, and reach all these other milestones that you've been told are necessary to adulthood, and all this kind of stuff. When, when you've been told that you're the one who's supposed to do all that stuff and you can't, as hard as you try, you can't, that that leads to despair. It leads to despair and and and. When you're, and when you're told that the only place that you can look is inward, that that feeds, that it just feeds that despair. And so so one of the if we were, if we were to offer solutions.
Speaker 3:I mean, this is this is one of the reasons why I wanted, I want to push everybody you know, particularly at at our church, to one another, to community, because the fact of the matter is, is that, even so far as an understanding of masculinity is, do it on your own, get it together man up, man up, whatever, which is basically get you know, kind of get yourself together. That's going to kill it's. It's going to kill you, it's going to kill you because you can't, because you can't do it, because you can't do it by yourself and you were never meant to do it and you were never meant to do it by yourself. And so, but that requires recognizing this is a message that men are getting that is false, as well as here here are messages that women are getting that are that are false.
Speaker 3:In pastoral care, we have to be, we have to be, we have to be clear about not only seeing those things, but but breaking them down and pointing people to Christ likeness and pointing them to one another for support and love. We just go ahead on that. That was good. I had to, I had to. I was like I want to keep going.
Speaker 2:We're also going long, all right, we might, we might, keep going, all right.
Speaker 3:We'll do a part two. We'll see. We'll see if they, we'll see how, if there are any questions or anything.
Speaker 2:But I feel like this probably spurred some, because there's a lot to unpack there of you know well. Then, yeah, what does it mean? Do I? Do I ever try? But I do think what, what we're hitting here is just real. Let's, let's, let's seek to be after Christ, let's seek, let's seek Jesus in the midst of all of this.
Speaker 3:Once again, I apologize for my preaching that I end up doing at the moment. Oh, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Beautiful, but if you do have, questions if you do have questions, hello at theologyandpiecescom. Shoot those in. If you have specifics how to unpack this, how to apply this, shoot those. Hello at the wwwtheologyandpiecescom. You can find us on Instagram or Twitter and, as we always say, the best way to support this work is to give it a rating and a review. If you've only given a rating, would you give a review? If you've only given a review, give a rating.
Speaker 2:So if you found any of this helpful, would you do that right now, during this beautiful, smooth, hidden outro? Love y'all.
Speaker 3:Love it.
Speaker 2:We'll talk to you guys in two weeks, alrighty.
Speaker 3:See you soon. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:Bye-bye.