Speaker 1: 0:19

Yo, yo, yo, yo hey, welcome universe to the headquarters of the theology pieces podcast in waco, texas, with our multi-million dollar facilities that we are um broadcasting out of uh we. This is a place where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your host, slim and malcolm. And today, oh my goodness, I am going to be fanboying uh pretty hardcore.

Speaker 1: 0:50

Uh, because today we are talking with the one and only stephen james, which, if you don't know that, needs a little bit of that and apparently our music as well, stephen.

Speaker 2: 1:09

James is. I mean, he is my hero, he is one of my heroes.

Speaker 1: 1:16

He is. I mean, he has changed my life for the better in many, many ways, and many may or may not know him, but he is award-winning author speaker and we will give him all of his praise and bio a little bit later. But before we get to Stephen James, can you believe we're talking to Stephen James? Can I say his name? It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool.

Speaker 3: 1:37

It's pretty cool.

Speaker 1: 1:38

This is really the reason we do this podcast is so that you and I can hang out, but also we can invite people like Steven James to on, which is just wild, uh, but it's pretty cool, um, steven being an author, uh, and engaging in the the arts realm, um, I thought what better way for us to start with podcasts and then just to ask you not to name your your all time top favorite movie, but maybe like what's one movie in your top 10, so that you don't have to feel the need to like, justify the one. But is there one that you what's what's a? What's a top 10 movie for you?

Speaker 3: 2:14

the. The conjuring. The conjuring movies are in my top. The conjuring I'm a I'm a I'm a big fan, big big fan, of the Conjuring movies.

Speaker 1: 2:28

Tell a listener why.

Speaker 3: 2:31

I really like horror movies. Do you like the jump scare? I like I'm trying to figure out what it is about horror movies that I enjoy. My artistic tastes are just super. They're super dark. My, my artistic, my artistic tastes are just super, they're super dark. My, my life in general is not. I'm generally a very I don't know very joyful, joyful person, but a lot of the, a lot of the, a lot of the media that I consume, I mean, except for, like, anime and stuff, although it depends, it can get, it can, except for anime and stuff, although it depends, it can be dark. That's entertaining. It's entertaining to me.

Speaker 1: 3:10

Yeah, what about a top ten favorite book?

Speaker 3: 3:14

Fiction, book Fiction Well, that's the thing. I don't read a lot of fiction, except for like Stephen James. Well, there you go. Let me think of the last fiction that I enjoyed. That wasn't Stephen James. That requires me to go further back than some people might expect. I'd have to think about that.

Speaker 1: 3:36

Okay, all right, I'll give you some time if you want to come back. I was trying to think of answering these questions myself, so maybe a top 10. For me, inception is really up there.

Speaker 3: 3:48

It's a great movie. I love it. I rewatched it on the plane a few weeks ago, so good.

Speaker 1: 3:54

My wife hates it. But the whole getting stuck in the bookshelves.

Speaker 3: 3:59

Did you see Tenet? I've seen.

Speaker 1: 4:01

Tenet. I've seen it twice. I still don't know what I'm watching, but I love it did you see, tenet. I've seen it twice. I still don't know what I'm watching, but I love it. I love Dolan, but Inception to me is pinnacle the soundtrack and just the story. I cry every time I watch it. It's great. Rushmore used to be a top 10 one Still, I think would make top 10. Loved Rushmore, but man, I watched one on the plane ride back from chicago yeah that had me in tears and I can't stop thinking about.

Speaker 1: 4:30

I'm trying to get my wife to watch it. She's like I do not want to be in tears no who wants to cry.

Speaker 1: 4:34

Oh my gosh, it's the this movie called the whale. Oh my goodness, uh, it's it's with brandon frazier, kind of his return back to to the cinema, and it's got some you know um things that are not appropriate, uh, in the movie, uh early on, and things. You know, language and stuff like that, but just the, the story and the way to think about how you, how you love people that are choosing um things that you would not was choosing, not choosing life, and how do you deal with that? And you know gross.

Speaker 3: 5:10

It sounds like there's. It sounds like there are messages to learn and all that kind of stuff. Other movie I prefer the equalizer, the equalizer movies or anything with anything with denzel anything with denzel in it, which means I gotta go see the gladiator 2 when it comes out too, just because Denzel's in it, and I love everything that Denzel does. I affirm that Everything, especially when I see him as an old guy beating people up. It's glorious.

Speaker 1: 5:35

He already had strength. Now he's got old man strength. It's great.

Speaker 3: 5:40

Sorry, back to your movie and the feelings and the learning lessons and experiencing deep emotion or whatever.

Speaker 1: 5:48

So apparently that's what art is about. I was embarrassed, I was on the plane. I'm just like in tears.

Speaker 3: 5:53

I'm like stop it stop it, but in terms of fiction books man.

Speaker 1: 6:00

This is why I'm so excited to bring on Stephen James. I didn't read fiction books until I picked up one of Stephen's books, and I'll tell the story about that a little bit later. But you've got to pick up the Pond, this whole series, the Patrick Bauer series. It is fantastic. So we'll talk with him about some of his work as well, but before we get into some of that, I think you know what we need right now, Malcolm.

Speaker 3: 6:27

Uh-oh, what do we need?

Speaker 1: 6:27

Some of us are dealing with emotional things in life watching the whale and other things. I think what we need right now is a little bit of terrible treats.

Speaker 3: 6:38

Oh boy, Exquisite X's Nope.

Speaker 1: 6:42

Nope, Don't like that. I don't like that at all. Trying stuff on the fly not a great idea.

Speaker 3: 6:53

That didn't sound right at all.

Speaker 1: 6:56

So, Malcolm, today's installment of Terrible Tweets is really just the stuff you've sent me over the last couple months, oh great installment of terrible tweets is really just the stuff you've sent me over the last couple months. Oh great, um. And why is it terrible? Because it makes me cringe and also want to cry on the inside in other ways. Here we go. This is from today's terrible tweets. Let's see can we make this your morning installment of christian talking points points. It just keeps going. It just keeps going.

Speaker 1: 7:42

Circles are better than rows, apparently, malcolm said this to me in a private message which I appreciate. He blasted me on Twitter that is definitely a phrase I've used before at Mosaic that circles are better than rows and I'm realizing Every time you describe small groups, you use that little phrase I'm realizing now after watching this video.

Speaker 3: 8:01

I may not have originated that idea. Now, after watching this video, I may not have originated that idea. It's so painful to watch all of these churches saying it. It's hilarious.

Speaker 1: 8:15

Malcolm, you gotta hurt me on a deep level.

Speaker 2: 8:17

There it's a deep cut, and that's not all. You sent me, hey, church family what's up fam.

Speaker 1: 8:24

Hey, church fam. Hey church family. What's up church fam. Hey, church fam. Hey church fam. What's up first Baptist family. What's up church fam? Hey, what up fam. What's up church fam?

Speaker 4: 8:34

Hey city reed fam hey, what's up? Fam hey church family hey I hate, it Now.

Speaker 1: 8:41

I don't think I've ever used that, because I actually cringe when I hear church famous. I'm with you. Yeah. These churches are the worst. Oh man. And then I don't have the one of someone sent me of how often churches just raise their hands.

Speaker 3: 8:59

Yeah Well, the hand motion, yes, the hand motion that begins every church video.

Speaker 1: 9:08

That one was painful. Here's another one. That's great. Let's do life together. Do life together. Let's do life together. Do life together. Let's do life together.

Speaker 3: 9:19

Let's do life together. Let's do life together.

Speaker 1: 9:23

Do life together. They did life together. I life together. Do life together. They did life together. This is this. I don't know who did this it's really it I've really you've done a service to the church you're pointing out something that again this is another phrase that I've hated, but I've I can see myself falling into that trap, but i've've also hated the do life together. If you've done life together, cool, but there's something about churches that we tend to just gravitate towards one way of talking about something.

Speaker 3: 9:54

They're just phrases that people like.

Speaker 1: 9:55

Phrases that people like, and we cannot stop doing it.

Speaker 3: 9:59

Can't stop, can't stop, won't stop.

Speaker 1: 10:01

Do you think this is? Do you think that's something? That is something like if you swung the pendulum because the circles and rows I thought was a good idea.

Speaker 3: 10:12

Just American megachurch dialect Doing life together Right, right, right. So if you swing, the pendulum.

Speaker 1: 10:16

Okay, megachurch, which we would not be counted as one, but if you swung the pendulum and you said you know what, we're only going to do the I don't know like book of common prayer, like only like, like very liturgical, we'll say nothing outside of that.

Speaker 3: 10:31

It's great. Oh, that wasn't what you wanted me to say, wasn't?

Speaker 1: 10:34

it. Do you think that's a better expression of of the church? No, I mean like.

Speaker 3: 10:43

I mean, what this video lays out is just how common, like it's just, yeah, I mean, it's just. It's just. I mean it's just how colloquialisms work, it's just. But it just sounds ridiculous when you get a bunch of people together saying this thing. That means this very specific thing in this very specific context. It's just Christian, well, christian, Christian, christianese.

Speaker 1: 11:10

But the painful part of it is also where I think on the one that said like we do life together, like the under thing was like we you know, at our church we do things different.

Speaker 3: 11:17

Yeah, yeah, right Right.

Speaker 1: 11:18

Yeah. Cause I've definitely heard that Right working conferences like well at our church we do things a little bit different. We do life together. That feels like every everybody does something different. That is doing life together, groups or life groups.

Speaker 3: 11:36

Right again, these aren't bad things. I, we, we highly recommend small groups, but we highly recommend you doing life together.

Speaker 1: 11:40

We highly recommend discipleship and following jesus even if everyone's doing, just don't say you're unique in doing that. Yeah, all right. Last one, and this is kind of the theme of not necessarily terrible tweets, but just things that got kind of painful about church oh boy, terrible church, terrible church, terrible church.

Speaker 3: 11:58

Wow.

Speaker 1: 11:59

This is from Andrew Snyder on Twitter and he's got this image from the Office. You're not an Office fan, are you? I mean, I've watched it okay. Do you remember when, uh, dunder mifflin got taken over, um by uh, what's the name of the company? Um someone? If you're listening, you can just shout it out and we'll listen to it, listen to what you have to say.

Speaker 1: 12:19

But it got taken over by another, another, another company, and, and michael is now under this boss and um, the boss is trying to teach him how to, to do, to, to, to lead and to do things differently. And she tells him something and he goes well, you mean like this. And she writes. But she's like was how I put it? Not clear enough. And so someone took that as a meme and they have a picture of of Michael and they put Chris Tomlin. It says my chains are gone, I've been set free. And then they have the picture of the boss, kathy Bates, but they put John Newton saying was how I put it? Not clear?

Speaker 3: 12:52

enough, and I just love that.

Speaker 1: 12:57

I mean I love my chains are gone, I've been set free. I think it's beautiful, but just like, as John Newton probably could have said, was how I put it not clear enough. You needed to add a chorus. I loved it. I loved it. Well, y'all, if you have some terrible tweets, you think they'll be worth us discussing. Or maybe terrible Christianisms, colloquialisms that maybe even one mosaic might lead into.

Speaker 3: 13:26

No, no, no, no, no, don't do that. Why would you do that? No, that's fine, that's true. I'm opening myself up to saying hey, tell us why we suck Slim likes being super vulnerable on these things. I don't know, never mind, whatever.

Speaker 1: 13:38

Steel doors now put back up. But if you have questions, you can send us a question by hitting that button in the app that you're listening to, whether it's on Spotify or on Apple or Google or wherever you're listening to the podcast. But also, I encourage you to write a rating and review. We really appreciate that. That is how we get more people to find this work. So if you found any of this stuff helpful, that's always really helpful. But hey, we are now going to move into a time to invite. Oh man, the, the world's, the world's leading fiction writer.

Speaker 3: 14:13

I was like I was like where's where's slim going with this?

Speaker 1: 14:16

I'm just gonna stop yeah we're gonna welcome on steven james all right y'all well, as I said before, uh, we are here and we are excited to be welcomed with uh steven james here. Steven is a critically acclaimed author of uh 20 novels at least. I'm thinking uh numerous non-fiction working on 21 right now.

Speaker 1: 14:41

Yeah numerous non-fiction books that have sold more than 1 million copies. His books have won or been shortlisted for dozens of national international awards. In addition, his stories and articles have appeared in more than 80 different publications, including new york times. He's known for his masterful storytelling, gripping thriller thrillers. Uh, personal favorites of ours uh, it's a big something that we've we've connected over are the bowers files. He's captivated readers worldwide with his blend of psychological depth, intricate plots and relentless suspense. Um, it spans genres and just your commitment to both faith and storytelling. It shines through and and all these pages. And he's also the host of weekly podcast, the story blender, which he's interviewed more than 150 of the world's leading writers and storytellers. In 2020, he's won the christie award, hall of hall of fame for excellence in fiction writing. And just like, wow, the, the, I can't believe you're here, and so I'm just I. I told my wife I told I'm fanboy.

Speaker 3: 15:39

I'm excited that you're on the podcast pretty hard today, so thanks for having me on.

Speaker 4: 15:48

That's all amazing and I appreciate, uh, appreciate it. You know, the bowers files is interesting. I, it takes me about a year to write a book, really novel, right, you know. And so I mean there's 11 books, it's that's a big chunk of my life was researching, writing, editing, proofreading, publishing, writing and so all that stuff. So so, uh, you know, I I love it, I miss it a little bit. It's been a few years. So I'm ready to, you know, maybe explore possibilities for doing some more. Um, but but, uh, you know, after 11, I was like at that point I thought if I kept doing stories at that moment, with that series.

Speaker 4: 16:31

I think I would have started recycling ideas from previous books.

Speaker 4: 16:34

And I didn't want to be that author that just writes this one character for 30 years. And you're like, didn't? I just read this book five years ago and it's the exact same story. So I was like I don't want that to happen and so I'm like I'm going to set it, it aside. I don't know if it was smart or not, but it gave me the opportunity to try some different things, yeah. So I've been trying, trying a little bit of different. I did some spy novels, sci-fi. I'm doing some I guess you'd call them young adult horror, yeah, right now.

Speaker 4: 17:03

So rift is the one that comes out later this month, actually october. So I I mean I call them horror they're, they're scary, they're not like inappropriate, they're not like gruesome, like necessarily.

Speaker 1: 17:16

But yeah, so it's been super fun to try some, try some different things out, yeah no, I saw the, I saw rift and I thought, oh my, I have a son who's uh 14. I'm like, oh, maybe I can get him on this.

Speaker 4: 17:27

Literally, he would love the book. I think I love it.

Speaker 1: 17:31

I want to have this connection with him because this is one thing that we've connected.

Speaker 3: 17:37

Yeah, so I'm normally an exclusively nonfiction guy. So as I was doing my MDiv and PhD and stuff, I was just deep in research and stuff and that's been essentially the extent of all of my reading. And so then when, so then when, so, then when Slim I forgot which, I forgot which of the books he first told me to read. It's probably the Pawn. It could have been that it was. It was probably the Pawn, but I read it and I was like, well, it was probably the pawn, um, but I read it and I was like, well, guess I gotta read this entire series now.

Speaker 1: 18:12

But I wouldn't, I wouldn't share with you my, my introduction was just so funny to your books, uh. So I, um, my wife and I um had, uh, our firstborn nox, who at the time was one or two, and, um, our in-laws were doing a vacation in Hawaii and so we stopped. We're living in Asheville, north Carolina, but we stopped in Houston to hand over knocks to my parents and then met with in-laws down in Hawaii. But my mom was like hey, I was at the Christian bookstore and I got this book for you and it was the Knight, oh yeah. And I was just like, okay. I was disappointed.

Speaker 1: 18:48

I was disappointed like it's gonna take up room, my backpack and I'm surprised they got it at a christian bookstore. The night's pretty gritty oh, yes it was I was like coming from my mom, from my mom and I was like, okay, but I know it's not the opening scene, but pretty early on you have the, the guy under the car slitting his uh achilles and I was just like what am I reading?

Speaker 4: 19:15

oh, that was good. I still like the the night quite a bit. Yes, that was, um, I had the idea for the uh story and I thought, okay, um, basically what in the in the rook you find out this one character. At the end of the rook you find this one character is the bad guy, right, and he's kind of like this mastermind and I was like you know what at the beginning of the night I'm like I'm just gonna get killed off like he didn't. He was interesting, but this was super, super interesting to me and I was like I'm just gonna have someone like come out of nowhere and like just kill him. Oh my God, I thought he would be like the master villain for the whole series.

Speaker 4: 19:52

You know it's like I thought he would be like the master. And he's like who is this guy? Just comes in like yeah it's him out and I'm like what so?

Speaker 2: 20:00

yeah, so I didn't get any of that backstory because I came in late.

Speaker 1: 20:08

I started with the night but then, after rereading, I'm like that makes so much more sense. But I got the. I got after, like you know, the second time read because I've now read through the, the bower series at multiple times. But to your, I want to. I want to commend you. Like that helped me. I used to. I was where malcolm was and I was like, uh, I went to seminary. What's the point of fiction books? I feel like they detract from the important stuff and I'm just like, oh, I'm missing out on so much. And so I thank you, you've opened the door and I enjoy a lot of other fiction as well. So thank you for sharing that gift.

Speaker 4: 20:41

Yeah, of course, interesting. It's interesting. People talk about fiction and nonfiction and there's a lot of interesting discussions that can be done in that realm. But like, one of the things I think of is like when you read a fictional book or see a movie, let's say that's made up. You know it's made up right, but you cry.

Speaker 1: 21:03

At least I do, malcolm doesn't.

Speaker 3: 21:05

No, I do.

Speaker 4: 21:06

I do, I really do like um a book, like you almost never cry. Well, I shouldn't say never, but like let's say you're reading an autobiography or a biography of abraham lincoln or something yeah you usually don't cry, but, like a novel which you know isn't true, can lead you to tears.

Speaker 4: 21:28

I think I feel like fiction is a way for us to actually believe what we claim to believe. Let me say it this way it's a way for us to believe what we already know, which sounds weird, but, like we all know, life is short. Life is short Like and the know that like, relationships matter than how much money you have in the bank, like we know that, yeah.

Speaker 4: 21:51

Yeah, but we don't always live that, and so I feel like when you read a novel, that suddenly you start to say, wow, this might be the last day of my life and I'm just going to celebrate it, or I'm going to give you know, my son, a hug, because you just never know what tomorrow brings, or whatever it is. Or you feel like more in love with the people, like your spouse or whoever you're like. I cherish you, and it's from reading a novel, and so it's interesting. Like I actually really feel like fiction does that in a way that nonfiction doesn't always accomplish. So, yeah, we know those things, but do we believe them? Like isn't that weird thing?

Speaker 3: 22:31

like you finally believe, yeah, what you already know by hearing a story you know isn't true yeah, when I, when I read, uh, when I read a lesson, men, the first time I, I mean, I like I knew, I knew what happened at the end and it's super short too, but even knowing what happened at the end, I mean I was weeping. I was weeping at the end of it. And this is, I mean, I actually, contrary to what Slim said before, I weep very easily, it's true, but it is.

Speaker 1: 23:08

But you know, know, but one of the one of the great things, um, I mean, I think one of the great things about, about fiction, is the way that it, I mean, engages and stretches your, your, your, imagination, um, but that, but it also, I mean, but it also in a sense resensitizes us to beauty, um, yeah, that's good so, so I think you know it's it, it, it definitely has its, it definitely has its value, as underappreciated as it is in my own life well, I, besides it being uh, shocking that it was, um, you know the the genre that my mom got me, uh, with this book that I've read, other played um it it was also to me it was shocking at how much I enjoyed it, one because fiction, but two because it was from a Christian bookstore and, as you said, you were kind of surprised it was from a Christian bookstore, but even from a Christian genre or author, I've experienced a lot of bad Christian art.

Speaker 1: 24:07

I don't know about you, um, and I'm just wondering if, if you think, if you, if you do agree that's true why is christian art so bad?

Speaker 1: 24:16

some like not not, not like, yeah, not universally, but like what? Are we getting wrong?

Speaker 4: 24:21

uh, because, okay, so this will take just a second to unpack, let's do it. What makes a story great? Okay, are pivots, which are moments where something is unexpected yet inevitable, so like it's not super predictable, like it has surprises. When you read a book or you see a movie, you're like I didn't expect that, but oh, it totally makes sense, but ooh. So we like surprises, right. But oh, it totally makes sense, but ooh, so we like surprises, right. And the second thing is the payoff, which is very often the truth that cannot be stated but that cannot be forgotten. So, like Flannery O'Connor once said, a story is a way to say something that cannot be said any other way, and it takes every word in the story to say what the meaning is. She said if you can summarize a story, if you can state the theme of a story, you can be certain it is not a very good one.

Speaker 4: 25:14

Oh, that's good and I agree, and so what happens is, like a lot of my friends here are Christians start with an agenda I want to get people to whatever forgive, trust in Jesus, whatever the agenda is. As soon as we're reading it and we see, oh, I know where this is going, I'm supposed to forgive people or I need to trust in Jesus, or whatever. What happens when you start with an agenda is you undermine the pivot because it becomes predictable. You undermine the payoff because we all know it and as soon as we know where it's going, we're like like it doesn't have as much impact so like I don't start my stories with an agenda or an answer.

Speaker 4: 25:53

I don't start with an answer. I always start with a question or dilemma. And so it's interesting like I don't start saying I want people to learn this by the end, I don't because I don't know the answer. So but like with the night, for instance, when wrote that the question that drove the story was what's more important protecting the innocent or telling the truth. So that was a story. Like that was really what Patrick Bowers had to struggle with throughout the book of the night, like should I tell the truth but it might put the innocent in danger, or should I lie, or what's more important?

Speaker 4: 26:27

And when I started the book, I felt like I knew the answer, like I was like I already know which of the two I think is more important, but only when I wrote the book did I change my mind, like I was like by the end I'm like actually no, I actually think it's the other one that I thought of. So so I always start with a dilemma instead of an answer and I don't start with an agenda but more of a question, and so I really feel like we're so passionate because we have a message, whatever. It is, like a hope or redemption or something but as soon as it becomes predictable, people are no longer into it.

Speaker 1: 27:06

So yeah, do you think? Do you think it's possible, then, for it to be labeled christian art and it to to not be predictable?

Speaker 4: 27:15

because I think that's that's really really profound, what you said there yeah, I mean it just depends on what you mean by christian art or books or whatever you know. Like um madelineeline L'Engle wrote a book, you know, walking on the Water, where she explores Christian art and kind of her conclusion is sort of mine that something is Christian if it tells the truth about the world and so whether it was written by a Christian or not isn't what makes it Christian. It's like does it render the truth that we need about the world and like some things that are labeled Christian? It's like does it render the truth that we need about the world and like some things that are labeled Christian? I don't think are Christian remotely.

Speaker 4: 27:54

It's like because they don't tell the truth about the world, Like there are some you know books or movies out there where it's like if you just trust in Jesus, your life will get easier. Suddenly, someone will give you a car out of nowhere, your marital problems will be solved and just if you pray and read the Bible more.

Speaker 1: 28:11

This was the story of my life.

Speaker 4: 28:12

That literally is not true. It's like he, in fact, was like look, you're going to follow me. Things are going to get harder.

Speaker 3: 28:23

That's what he said.

Speaker 4: 28:27

That's what he said, but it's like what he said yeah, but like, when a book or movie portrays that and is labeled christian yeah, then I actually think that it's mislabeled, because so if you're holding up something that's not what the bible would teach and you're saying this is christian, I don't think it's right. What makes something Christian? When I wrote the Pawn, the first Bowers book, someone wrote to me and said is this a Christian book? And I was like, well, what would make it unchristian? I thought, well, maybe if it had a lot of sex, nudity, violence, gore, idolatry witchcraft.

Speaker 4: 29:10

And. I thought no wait, that's the Old Testament. I was like wait a minute. So I think that a lot of Christians, when they evaluate art, they only look at content, and I think content is legit. I think it's okay to look at it and be like this has stuff that's objectionable to me. I don't really want to watch it, that's fine. I don't really want to watch it, that's fine, like I don't have any problems with that. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 29:29

But if that's your only criteria, I don't think that you're really. I don't think that should be the only criteria. So I think there's three things we should look at. You asked about art, so one is um, what's the worldview that it promotes? So, or what's the overall takeaway?

Speaker 4: 30:00

I guess so like there are some things that people will be like yeah, you know this is, you should watch it, but it's predictable or preachy in a way that you're like come on, so other things. And then the third is artistic excellence, and so there are some things that I would recommend to someone because it's artistically excellent, it actually portrays the truth about the world, but it might have content that's objectionable to some people. I'm like well, okay, just, this is beautiful art, yeah, but you know, jesus was naked on the cross. I, I know it's supposed to be a check, so it's supposed to be that's the purpose of it yeah, yeah, like you know, and so but so.

Speaker 4: 30:46

But in the service of trying to not offend people, we sometimes tidy up the Christian part of what we're doing, like the Christian message or something. Yeah, like my wife, I'm not, like you all probably know Greek or Hebrew. I'm not a scholar in those realms at all, but my wife has studied those and teaches Bible at a university here in Tennessee. And you know, it's like, apparently from what I've been told, like in Isaiah, where it talks about all of your righteous acts are as filthy rags. The word filthy is menstrual rags, it's like menstrual rags, but like no translations say that because it might offend people. Yeah, the word filthy is menstrual regs. It's like menstrual regs, but like no translations say that because it might offend people. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 31:34

Like well, we'll just say filthy instead or something like that.

Speaker 4: 31:39

And you know, like just, there's lots of examples of that from the Bible, where the Bible is very earthy. And anyway, earlier when I was like what makes a book Christian, I was like, well, I feel like content. Your book can have violence, it could have sex or whatever, as long as it's within the context of a broader redemptive story. Because the Bible has obviously a lot of content that we would be like if the Old Testament was made into a movie, a lot of Christian bookstores wouldn't carry it. Where does this come from? It's crazy.

Speaker 1: 32:17

It's R-rated.

Speaker 3: 32:20

It's a hard R.

Speaker 4: 32:24

How did we come to the place of where we're so prudish to say, oh, I won't carry that because, like what? Yeah.

Speaker 4: 32:32

So, anyway, people will slam me sometimes. They'll say you have too much violence in your book or something. And someone asked me like, like, do you think your books desensitize people to violence? And, um, I actually don't think so. But I've thought a lot about it because I think there's different ways to portray violence. Like you could actually have like glamorized violence, like some slas movies, let's just say glamorized violence, like the most interesting characters and when they're hacking people up, whatever you're like who's he going to kill next? And I don't want to do that. It's not what I want to do. I also don't want to mute violence where, or let's say, mute evil. So, like some of my friends who are authors or Christian authors would be like I don't really want to go there, like I don't want to. So like the evil characters are cartoonish, yeah, or they're not really scary. You know it's like, eh, it's like because I don't want to go there. I don't think that's good either, because it's not honest about the world, like there really is evil. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 33:40

In our world. And you know, personally I actually believe Christians confess that our world is deeply fallen, like deeply in need of a savior. And if I and my books sort of make it seem like we're really not all that bad, that you just kind of need someone to sort of help you over the hump, that's not really what I believe. I actually don't believe that Like, I believe we desperately need someone to save us from who we are and who we've chosen to become. And so, like I don't feel like glamorizing evil is something I want to do. I don't want to mute it, I want to be honest about it. So like, if there's someone who gets killed in one of my books, I'm never going to make evil look attractive or glamorous. I want to make you and make you feel uncomfortable where you're, like this makes me a little uncomfortable. And then when someone dies, like it means something, like people grieve and it hurts and they weep and I'm like, because that's the truth, yeah, about the world.

Speaker 1: 34:35

and so, um, do you feel like when you, when you've written um when you've written from the point of view Of the killer, like I'm trying to think of, like I think it was the bishop where they Strapped one of the killers To a dead body and left in the field To be eaten by animals.

Speaker 4: 34:54

How do you think of these things?

Speaker 1: 34:56

So I'm wondering when you're putting yourself in that position. Are you, like I, need to go take a shower afterwards, or how does that affect you?

Speaker 4: 35:04

There was one you know. Actually, interestingly enough, when I wrote the Night which we've talked about a little bit, the bad guy really troubled me, like because he was so callous to human suffering, like he would just as soon walk up to you and take you out for dinner as he would slit your throat. That freaked me out, because there literally are people who are in that place, and so it troubled me and I actually had to stop writing the night for a while.

Speaker 4: 35:33

Put it aside and write a prayer book and then come back and finish writing it. Interestingly enough, that prayer book Heart Exposed we just released actually prayer book A Heart Exposed we just released. Actually this fall we're releasing like a repackaged 15-year anniversary of that book, a Heart Exposed. I have to get you guys a copy of it, pete. Yeah, I'd love it, pete, but no, yeah, I rewrote some prayers, added a bunch of new prayers. It's a collection of prayers really for people you know just to communicate with. God in an intimate way.

Speaker 4: 36:06

But I remember setting aside the night to actually do that, because I did get into this place where I was like I don't want to think that I don't want to be in that place. So, it's hard for me. Some people are able to some writers just like it doesn't bother them, but like there's some darkness that does bother me in some books and I just have to be careful with that and and but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:25

Let's, let's, let's, let's, let's dig it out a little bit. I, I, so. So I did, I did my PhD on the history of black, black Protestants responding to lynching in the late 19th and early 20th century. So so, basically, and I, I came to that topic after a few years in the PhD. Basically, this, this question, hit me and it's been, it's, it's led to the, the, the, the book that I just the book that I just wrote, but it's also, I mean, like part of who I am is a historian of Christianity and racial and racial violence, of who I am as a historian of Christianity and racial and racial violence. But, as I was, I mean as I, when I first told my advisor that I wanted to do that dissertation, he, he warned me, you know, like they're going to be, they're going to be some times where you're likely going to need to step away because of, because of, because of just how just because of how dark, just because of how dark the content was.

Speaker 3: 37:20

And, uh, and there were, I mean, there were, there were a number of times when I like, overestimated my own, my own capacity for, like, for for that. So, for example, there was a, there was a point at which, um, I was looking for a particular, uh, basically a particular lynching photograph. And there's a book, there's a book of lynching photography called Without Sanctuary, and I thought I was like I can flip through this and find what it is that I need to find. And that was I will always remember when I sat because I couldn't do that. But I mean, there is an extent to which I think the Lord has given me a capacity to stare into the darkness, but there is a but there is, but there is a limit, but there is a limit to that.

Speaker 3: 38:09

How, how, how do you? Because you know, I mean this is, I mean there's some, there's some profound human darkness in these, in these books. How, so, how? You, you, you talked about the, you talked about the prayer book. What are some other, what are some other ways that you, uh, some other ways that you processed, kind of going to that place but also coming, but also coming out of it.

Speaker 4: 38:33

No, that's good, and thanks for the work that you did in that area. I mean, I haven't read your book, but it's coming in February, so don't One of the books that I wrote. It's called Opening Moves and it's very dark. It's probably the darkest one of all of the novels that I did, but it's also, I think, one of the most honest ones about different aspects of life.

Speaker 4: 39:04

But I remember writing it and I was just getting down, like I was literally feeling pressed or depressed or whatever you know term or something, and I was like so I actually had people praying for me when I was writing. But the other thing is like I try to actually show people redemption's available, like that hope is available, like yeah, there's some dark scenes that I have, but that's because our world, to be honest about it, there's a lot of darkness in our world.

Speaker 4: 39:29

And I don't know if you guys ever read GK Chesterton. He wrote a book called Orthodoxy back in the day and in this book he actually became a believer later in life and he said Christians are more optimistic than the optimists and more pessimistic than the pessimists. And I feel like what he's saying is like you can be very optimistic and be like just look on the bright side and follow your dreams and follow your heart, sort of a Disney sort of thing. And it's like, yeah well, serial killers follow their hearts, like pedophiles, follow your dreams and follow your heart sort of a disney sort of thing, yeah, and it's like, yeah, well, serial killers follow their hearts, like pedophiles follow their dreams, like you know.

Speaker 4: 40:05

It's like this is horrible. You should not follow your heart. Like, like the bible says, the heart is deceitful above all things. And then jesus said from our out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder and adultery. Like why would you want to follow the thing that is deceitful above everything else, where evil lives? Where does that even come from, anyway? So like, don't follow, please don't follow, don't do that.

Speaker 1: 40:29

That came out in a few of the books from Raven right.

Speaker 4: 40:33

Yeah, but then okay. So, but then also we're more pessimistic than the, so we're like, actually, guess what Life is? Even greater than you can imagine, because there's eternal joy, like waiting, yeah. But also more pessimistic than the pessimists who are like, yeah, life stinks and just like get it over with now or whatever, and it's like, well, actually it's worse than that.

Speaker 3: 40:58

You're dealing with not just human evil, but cosmic evil too just wait a million years.

Speaker 4: 41:04

So it's like christianity to me is the only really worldview, religion or philosophy or whatever that looks at life with both eyes open yeah, both eyes open, to both the glory and the grief, both the pain, the, the heartache, the genocide, the lynchings, all this horrible stuff like you're mentioning, but also love and compassion, sacrifice, and so it's like our world is both. And when you write as an artist, as Christian, it's like I want to portray that honesty that our world really is worse than you can ever imagine and greater than you could ever dream. World really is worse than you can ever imagine and greater than you could ever dream. Like, if that, if I can help people see that, that truth, that paradox, right then, um, then I feel like I'm telling the truth then about the world.

Speaker 4: 41:50

And so, yeah, when I read that quote you know in orthodoxy I was like that's pretty interesting, like I really I feel there's a lot to that. He had another quote in there that's super interesting too. He's talking about how he thought Christianity was just about following rules and order, like following laws and commandments and stuff. Finally he came to the conclusion he said there is a lot, there is how do you phrase there is some order be said, but I found that the purpose of the order was for good things to run wild.

Speaker 4: 42:23

I love that because it's like how many people? You go up to them on the street, you'd be like, what's Christianity? They'd be like, well, it's following this rule of the Ten Commandments, it's going to church, it's singing those songs or it's including or excluding certain people. But like I wonder how many people if you went to him on the street and you're like, what's christianity? And they're like, oh, that's where good things run wild, yeah, yeah. And then paul, and like the. You know he's like, well, what he's like talking about through the spirit, like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness. He's like against such things there is no law, because this is the good things that should run wild. So can you imagine if compassion or love or patience.

Speaker 4: 43:11

I'm not a very patient person, by the way, but can I imagine what it would look like for patience to run wild in my life? That would be amazing, but uh, but yeah, isn't that interesting.

Speaker 1: 43:22

It's, christianity is the place where good things run wild yeah, well, I think, I think that's what comes through, shining through in your books. Is that honesty about the darkness of the world, but also the hope, um, and so I think that that shines through. Um, I'm I'm curious how you get to the honesty, um, and and whether it's the, you know, as I said, I used to live in asheville, which they're going through so much right now, and I'll be praying for them, um, and finding ways to contribute and assist churches and and those that are there. But, um, I mean hearing about, like you know, just you naming street locations. I was like, oh, did, did you live in asheville to to write this? Did you go visit or did you go google earth the whole time, like, and then you're going to san diego and all these different places, and then the stories, the backstories how did you, how do you get into that process of making it very real and gritty in that way?

Speaker 4: 44:12

I actually do try to visit the place I write about, even if it's only for a couple of days. Interestingly enough, when I went to Asheville to research the pond, I was like I'm just going to go on the bus tour of the city. You know how different cities have like. You know, you pay 30 bucks or whatever and they tell you the history of this. I was like I'm going to do that, and so I got a bunch of interesting things, and one of the things that the guy had mentioned was that F scott fitzgerald's wife, zelda, had come down to asheville to go to like uh, kind of she had depression or something and it was like kind of this insane asylum.

Speaker 4: 44:48

Well, anyway, while she was there, it actually eventually burned down. She died in this fire with like five other women. It's just like this terrible tragedy, and so there's a plaque at the base of this tree, in actual where it burned out, where the building burned out. There was a quote from her where she said I look, she's okay. So she said I look forward and I cannot find hope. I look backward and I cannot find hope. So I suppose the thing to do is to close my eyes and.

Speaker 4: 45:20

And I was like that is so sad, that's one of the saddest things I've ever heard. And so Bowers in the pond. His final conclusion is no, I need to open my eyes. But when I was there for the bus tour, I was like I think I can use that. So I tracked down the plaque and I got the quote from the plaque. It's still there as far as I know, um, but really, you know, opening your eyes is the way to find hope, not closing them yeah, so that's what he discovers.

Speaker 4: 45:51

So, yeah, so it's been super fun, like I've visited almost all the cities that I write about, at least for a few days, just to get a feel for it. Yeah, and you always notice things that you would never notice without being there. Yeah, I know, when I was in denver doing research for the night, um, at the courthouse, there's a saying in latin that that I was able to use in the book.

Speaker 4: 46:13

And then it's also just this little thing like the judge's entrance is like this special entrance into the courthouse yeah but like where it says judge's entrance, there's no apostrophe, like it just says judges, it'd be possessive, like right yeah tessa just goes off on this in the book and she's this

Speaker 4: 46:33

teenage girl. He's like that bothers her and she's like I can't believe it. For, like the last hundred years, there have been no one that's like an apostrophe up there and so like that's the, but I would never get that off Google Earth or something it's like you want to be there and look around, and so yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1: 46:53

I love that. Malcolm, did we lose your phone? He's still here, isn't he, but maybe lost.

Speaker 4: 46:58

so so yeah, and then the other thing is like just, you know, really trying to um, get the actual criminology stuff right, yeah, like I've. You know I've worked with the fbi and I've talked to dea agents and scientists and you know law enforcement detectives, done ride-alongs. I visited the fbi academy twice, toured the pentagon, different military bases, and you know it's just like it's so. I'm really trying to honor the that aspect. So if people from the fbi or criminology read my books to be like, all right, no, it's like it's made up, like you know, they know it's made up, but they're like, no, that could happen, like that's true enough. Yeah, that's hard though. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 47:41

I mean. So that's why it takes so long to write a book. I know people who spin out a book every few months Like I can never do that, you know, not trying to get the research right. It would work for me.

Speaker 1: 47:57

It seems like you're putting out quite a bit of other things, though not just fiction books. You've got quite a bit of other works that you've done, yeah over the years.

Speaker 4: 48:04

You know, it's like I've done some inspirational books, some books on the craft of writing, so sometimes I'll work on a book for a while and then I'll have ideas. I think this would be helpful for people working on a book on writing, and so I've actually got a new one that I'm hoping will come out in the next few months, a new book on the craft of writing, and then, like some of these inspirational books like A Heart Exposed and stuff, so to do. But I can't like really say, oh, I'm going to do three books this year because it'll kill me. Oh, I'm gonna do three books this year because it'll kill me. As I work on the novel, I just like might take a few hours here and there to like jot ideas down or a couple days break or something, and then come back to it.

Speaker 4: 48:49

And so, like the prayer books, actually they take me about a decade to write, which sounds crazy, but like, because I can't sit down and like write 200 prayers, yeah, it's like they have to be, you know, like I have to be in a certain place and mindset or whatever, and then I write it and that's set aside, and then after a decade it's like okay, I think I have enough that you know, could create a book or whatever. And so, yeah, it's not very efficient. I don't know if it's efficient, I don't know what. That's probably good, there's no, I think everyone's like you should have a balanced life. I'm like, literally, I don't know what you're talking about. I have no idea what a balanced life would look like it doesn't exist in my world so, oh, I love that.

Speaker 1: 49:33

Um, what one book that uh, I I really enjoyed was the sailing between the stars book.

Speaker 4: 49:38

Hey, there you go. That that's like a blast out of the past. That one oh man, it's not available anymore is it not for you.

Speaker 1: 49:46

You tracked a copy down, man, I've had this for a while now. Uh, I I've loved this book um early on. I think it was probably right. After I read the night I was like what else can I get? Um, yeah, a little different, but but it was so good.

Speaker 4: 49:55

After I read the night, I was like what else can I get A little different?

Speaker 1: 49:57

but but it was so good. There's a line in here where you say theology is our attempt to capture God in the butterfly net of our minds. But of course he's too wild for that. I go on to say Christians all too often try to break him down into bite-sized pieces that fit neatly into one page doctrinal statements and three-point sermons. We call it systematic theology. But the problem is theology isn't systematic, it's narrative. God isn't a subject to be studied, he's a person to be encountered. It goes on. God isn't an algebra problem to be solved, he's the heartbeat of the universe. I love this and just kind of like hitting on the mystery of God. How do you think the church is missing an opportunity here when we, when we do, kind of boil God down into an algebra problem to be solved?

Speaker 4: 50:48

I mean, I was thinking about this one time. You know like we're very quick to come up with doctrinal statements, and there's nothing wrong with like. Obviously I feel like we should have the truth and we should obviously share what is true as far as doctrine stuff. But I feel like we try to almost like, and I think Stott like John Stott maybe in one of his books said God is not interesting, he is deeply unsettling. And I feel like you know it's like oh, that's interesting. No, it's not interesting, like it's everything that you need and whatever.

Speaker 4: 51:28

So I feel like if we could just get to know God through like a statement, like a doctrinal statement or something like, why didn't he just like give one to Adam and Eve and be like here, just photocopy this, don't worry, those will be invented someday. You can just pass it along, just like pass this along through the ages. It covers everything eternal security, baptism, when to, when to, not to, and it's like it's all of your questions. And then, by the way, when to, not to, and it's like it's all of your questions.

Speaker 4: 51:59

And then by the way, when you pass this on, people will fall in love with me. But we don't, though, and so, instead, he spent centuries giving the world his love story and like you could give, like, for instance, let's say, I'm going to introduce you to someone. I don't know if y'all are married, but let's say I've got this perfect woman for you or whatever. So I give her a meter, so I give you her measurements, how much she weighs, the color of her hair and her resume, where she went to school and what she studied. Are you going to fall in love with her from that? No, probably not, probably not.

Speaker 4: 52:36

But that's what we try to do with God. We expect people to fall in love with God by handing his resume out to people, and I feel like we're missing kind of the point a little bit. It's like he didn't do that because he knew it wouldn't work for us, so he sent us his love story, so's like if we want to share, like what he is ultimately like. It's not something that can easily be sort of encapsulated, I think, in one of my books I don't remember which one, but I put something like if you can understand God, if you can package him up and explain him very carefully to people so that he's understandable or whatever. I was like. Please, please, please stop talking about him. It's like God is a mystery, but he's also available and anyway. So that's always my thoughts about it. I'm no theologian Y'all have studied theology way more than I have but I just look at it through a storyteller's eyes and it's like, when I look at the Bible, I see it as a story you know and like.

Speaker 4: 53:39

And I think that when we try to nail stuff down too intellectually, like how do you like the Bible says to know a love that surpasses knowledge, like how do you do that if you don't? Have faith.

Speaker 4: 53:54

Like it's like how do you, you know what's? Another one where it's like, yeah, know a love that surpasses knowledge. Oh, it's like, you know, I was trying to think of, like what faith is, where Hebrews talks about. Like faith and stuff, being confident of what you cannot prove, all this stuff, but anyway, yeah, yeah, the idea is that, you know, faith is at the core and imagination is at the core of faith. Like, you can't have faith without imagination, and so I celebrate imagination, not in a bad way, not like dark, going into a dark place, but that God was, you know, creative, but also Jesus, who obviously was a storyteller. I mean, you all know that.

Speaker 4: 54:46

You know it's like Scripture says he didn't say anything to the crowds for at least a period of his preaching ministry without telling them a story. I think it's in Mark 4, 34, you know, and it's like, why would he do that? Like, and interestingly enough too, like his followers didn't understand what he was talking about until like, if you look in the book of John, like the very last night Jesus was alive. Like, literally before he's going to get captured and taken away. They're like, oh, now we finally understand you.

Speaker 4: 55:15

Now you're not talking in riddles and metaphors and now we get I'm like after three years, it was the last night. Oh, finally, yeah, finally, we understand what you're talking about, it's like, but we tend to we tend to like trust our explanations, whereas Jesus tended to trust people's curiosity. This is so interesting. Like he, you know, he told stories, parables, and they're like, well, what did that actually mean? He's like so that seeing they couldn't see and hearing they couldn't understand. Yes, yes, but like that's how he didn't want to explain himself. He did, I get it, but he wanted people to chew on the stories and the truth and stuff. And so I think that we're too quick to explain stuff.

Speaker 1: 56:06

Well, I think that goes back to the question about you know, good art versus bad, versus, you know, like kind of having it be very clear, like here's the message. You know, it's like when I write a sermon, what I was trained to do from seminary was, you know, know the end in mind. You know, give them what they want to walk away with and then work backwards and so like, build it all to one single point, because if you give them the shotgun approach and they have 20 points to walk away with, they'll forget everything and so, but I don't like that in movies, um, I don't like that in um in books, when it's a single point to walk away with. I mean like we just joked about with, like I went and saw, or I didn't go and saw, I saw, um nefarious on amazon prime and I didn't know what it was about.

Speaker 1: 56:52

I just was like, oh, interesting movie about a demon possess and demon possessed I did not know until like 30 minutes into it that it was like very much a very clear christian movie and like you could tell where it was gonna go, like the whole, like there was no surprise and I I hated it. Um, so I don't. I don't like it in movies or in books when it's the clear, but I love it in sermons, Is there? How do we? How do we parse that Like? Is there any like? Maybe like something that I can learn, even though I'm not going to be a writer, but in my craft if you call it a craft, or what, pastors, how can we learn from this, this way of telling stories to invite people into curiosity better? What would you, what, any advice you'd give us?

Speaker 4: 57:36

I mean there's. I actually did a book called the Art of the Tale which is for communicators and speakers and preachers and leaders and stuff like that. There's a whole chapter in there about curiosity. So I don't know if you guys have that book. If you don't, let me know. But the Art of the Tale is really for you know, people who are trying to do that or people who are trying to do that.

Speaker 4: 58:01

But the thing that comes to my mind is people learn best through discovery, not explanation. And, interestingly enough, I was at a sermon one time. I was listening to this sermon the guy was going on, or whatever, and it wasn't anything I didn't know, it was just all stuff I knew, right. And I remember jotting in my notes. I was like I jotted down never tell someone what they already know in a way they already expect. And I was just kind of looking through my notes or whatever. And later on I pulled out my notes. I was like, hang on, that's good advice.

Speaker 4: 58:29

So if you're doing a sermon, I would say never tell people what they already know in a way they already expect. So if they already know that God loves them, don't tell them. God loves them. They already know that, tell it to them in a way they don't expect. And one way that we do that through story is not by telling a story that is the example of what we should do, but telling a story that shows the consequences of the opposite. So like, if you're trying to teach on forgiveness, you don't say you should forgive people because everybody knows that already it's going to have no impact, but instead tell a story about the consequences of what Unforgiveness. And when you tell that story, you're like I don't want that. That sounds bad, like bitterness, grudges and eating away at my heart. I'm like I don't want that. That sounds bad, like bitterness, grudges and eating away at my heart. I'm like I really don't want that. And so then they want that.

Speaker 4: 59:19

So like when I'm speaking a sermon or preaching at churches, when I do stuff, I always say, okay, not how can I explain this, but how can I help people discover this? So sometimes we ask how can I um so? So sometimes we ask how can I explain it, how can I clarify it? Instead of how can I clarify it, I want to say how can I help people experience this? Like for me, it's trying to find a way to help people make because we want like it. If you're a storyteller, you know the people like two plus two, don't tell them it's four. Let them come up with that, cause it's like we want to and it's insulting sometimes to say, by the way, two plus two, this is four. And we're like, literally, like I know, like I already can tell that. So so it's somewhat trusting them, but it's just backing up and instead of thinking about trying to make sure that it's clear, trying to give them the tools so they can discover it on their own. Anyway, yeah, that's my thought on sermons, that's good.

Speaker 4: 1:00:26

Never tell them what they already know in a way they already expect. That's really good, so sometimes you have to tell them stuff they don't know, that's fine, you know I get that. But if it's stuff that they already it could read the scripture and take away on their own, how can you tell it to them away? That'll help them discover something that they couldn't on their own. That's really the role, I think, of a pastor. That's good sermon and did you?

Speaker 1: 1:00:51

have you always been a writer? Have you always kind of been going down this road, always wanted to to be a writer? Or was this something you switched, pivoted into?

Speaker 4: 1:00:59

Yeah, interestingly enough, like I never thought I'd be a writer, I always loved stories, like my uncle when I was a kid, always tell us stories whenever we got together for the holidays, christmas, new Year's, stuff like that. So I love stories I would read and then I would make up stories like just my own little stories. I lived in Wisconsin and I was very it's very cold in Wisconsin, as you know. So I was actually a school crossing guard when I was in the sixth grade, which means that they actually gave me the permission and opportunity to try and save the friend my friends from getting run over by a bus Nice, a little thing that says slow and stop. I got bored, so I just spin it back and forth. I didn't know what to do. People were driving around. I would stand there on the corner and it was freezing cold in the winter. They stuck me on a corner where there wasn't much traffic because I wasn't a very good school crossing guard. It was like the B team of school crossing guards.

Speaker 4: 1:01:56

So there wasn't much traffic because I wasn't a very good school crossing guard. It was like the B team, you know crossing guard. So there wasn't much traffic. So I would just stand there spinning the sign stop slow, stop slow. Making up stories about this land that basically the most two terrifying things I could think of was cold weather, freezing to death and getting needles poked into you like hypodermic needles. So I made this land called hypodermia, like hypothermia, but with hypodermic needles, where they would freeze you from the inside out by injecting cow venom into your bloodstream. So this is me as a sixth grade kid in this country.

Speaker 4: 1:02:29

The most terrifying thing I can think of is cow venom. You're injected and you freeze from the inside out. So I'd stay in there making up stories about, about hypodermia were your parents worried everyone was worried.

Speaker 4: 1:02:43

They still were worried, but um but, then actually, you know, I loved stories and making stuff up and and eventually kind of fell into um, this idea of telling stories when I was in college and then I never really thought I would be a storyteller or a writer or any of that stuff. And so I'm just thankful that eventually I kind of fell into being able to do that tell stories, bigger stories and I'm just thankful because I feel like I was made to tell stories. Like that's my lane, like I'm not a good marketer. Publishers want you to market your book. I'm like I'm no good at that. All I can do is make stuff up. I have the gift of making stuff up. I don't have the gift of anything else. It's like a little, just let me do that one little thing. That's great.

Speaker 1: 1:03:38

Now, how similar are you to any of your characters that you?

Speaker 4: 1:03:39

have made up Bowers is a much better rock climber than I am, but I became a coffee snob when.

Speaker 1: 1:03:47

I was writing about him, I was wondering.

Speaker 4: 1:03:53

I'm not really not like any of them. I don't think I wish that I could think as I wish I had the mind that he has the courage that he has. Travis Brock this new series is Spies, kind of like. Almost got this almost photographic memory. But none of that's true about me. I'm more like the teenage girl who's sassy and always has something sarcastic to say. My wife's like yeah, writing your books gives you the um, the opportunity to to express your teenage girl the judge's entrance yeah, teenage girl's self.

Speaker 3: 1:04:27

She's like oh, you do oh man, oh man, oh, I love it. That's hilarious's great, that's great. Well, we're thankful for your gift. Yes, for your gift. It's been a blessing. It's been a blessing to us. Yes, that's for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:04:45

And we hope more can be exposed to good writing, good art, good fiction that brings us into a story to get a better picture of God. And, uh, you know all the, the darkness, the, the realness of this world, but also the beauty that seems to be shining through Um, what other um besides? You said you, you have this book coming out later this month. There's the rift, but there's also the the the. The prayer book is the Psalm, is the Psalms the prayer book as well.

Speaker 4: 1:05:17

Is that the same thing? It's's called, it's called the heart exposed and um, so it's a. It's a collection of of prayers. They're more poems, they're kind of both. They're sort of poems and prayers. Okay, they're not like your typical sort of prayers, I guess, but yeah, but they're really meaningful to me. You know, 15 years ago I worked on that book for about a decade, like I said, eventually finished it and then I took another look at it lately and just really revised and added a bunch of new stuff. We have our original artworks in the books, just a very beautiful little collection of prayers, and so I'm really happy that that's finally available again, because it hasn't been, you know, for over a decade the book hasn't been out there.

Speaker 4: 1:05:53

I love it and I'm definitely working on the next book in this young adult series. I'm desperately trying to write that. Number two Got the writing book on the horizon and so Okay, yeah, I'm busy writing stories, but I appreciate the opportunity to be here with y'all and you know it's fun to share all and uh, well, we know it's fun to share.

Speaker 1: 1:06:19

So I I secretly have been hoping that uh, hollywood would pick up the the bauer series and put it to screen, so I can see what I've been thinking in my head I mean it's.

Speaker 4: 1:06:24

There's nothing in production right now, but it's not, it's I mean anyway. So we're, we're working on it yeah, all right, I hope so Deeply, deeply thankful.

Speaker 1: 1:06:39

I joke, but fanboying, but I really appreciate you writing it Again. I hope it does for others what it did for me to expose to the beauty of fiction. Thank you for going deep into the darkness and then pointing us out on the other side as well.

Speaker 4: 1:06:54

I appreciate it. Thanks so much for saying that. That was very kind and y'all are both very welcoming. I appreciate the chance to be here and share with y'all.

Speaker 1: 1:07:02

Awesome, thank you. Well, we will definitely put all the books and your website in the show notes for those who are interested to get going on this. They're also at the library if you can't afford it, but we encourage you to support the author and actually buy the books. Thank you, it's good, awesome, well, thanks so much, stephen. Thanks, stephen, appreciate it.

Speaker 4: 1:07:25

All right, thanks, bye, bye.

Speaker 1: 1:07:29

Oh, man, y'all, thank you so much for tuning in with us, getting to be, uh, along just a personal ride, a journey for me to be able to talk with, with steven james here I I hope you got a little taste of how, uh, how great he he is, um, but I I again, like I just said there, I think he's definitely exposed me to the the beauty of fiction and I hope you guys will, will check out, just read one of his books. Even if you're not a big horror, serial killer genre, give one of them a try. It's pretty great. That's not the music I want.

Speaker 3: 1:08:09

Find the right music Salim.

Speaker 1: 1:08:10

Okay, well, hey, if you enjoyed any of this, please give us a rating review. Shoot your questions at hello at theologypiecescom. As we always say, the best way to support this work is by giving it a rating review. So if you found any of it helpful, would you leave five stars now? Would you actually write a review? Would you share it with somebody and then go buy some Stephen James books and just make your life a million?

Speaker 1: 1:08:32

times better and you and me and Malcolm can talk about. You know these endings and these killers and it's going to be great, it's pretty great, awesome. Thanks y'all. We'll see you next time on Theology Pieces. See ya, bye, we'll see you next time.