Speaker 1: 0:20

Good afternoon universe. Welcome to the Theology in Pieces podcast. On this dreary December, cold, sad afternoon, we are coming to you as defeated human beings Wow.

Speaker 2: 0:43

Wow.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Okay, let me try that again. Welcome to the algebra's podcast, where we hope to rebuild your theology at the church. The world, or somebody, has shattered pieces and we are your host, slim and malcolm we are taking one take, so we are not redoing that. Uh, because it's just, that's just what we do. That's what we do here. Malcolm, I I was joking. How are you doing? I? I I'm not feeling defeated, I'm. My wife loves the rain. Do you love the rain?

Speaker 2: 1:13

I don't pay attention to nature, so it's raining outside, but I'm but I'm inside and that's great uh, ladies and gentlemen, uh, we all need to have an intervention with Malcolm.

Speaker 1: 1:30

You should pay attention to nature.

Speaker 2: 1:32

I feel like that's one thing that you should pay attention to. You're into that, you're into, you know, praising the Lord for creation or whatever.

Speaker 1: 1:39

Do you wear a coat when it's cold? I mean, I feel like you pay attention to nature, but then I choose to be outside, uh, as little as possible uh yeah, yeah, uh, well, we are, we are entering into this, this christmas season, uh, we are exiting the, the political season, um, and exiting the political season.

Speaker 2: 2:00

What does that even mean? Slim, there is no. There is no. It may be exiting an election season, but we're never exiting a political season very good, very good, very good anyway, anyway, let's all give malcolm a round of applause for that.

Speaker 1: 2:21

Calling slim out, slim is feeling a little love you. You know I have not used these sound effects in a long time and so I think, I'm gonna go over the top with them today um great uh, malcolm, love that, love that for us uh, it's entering christmas season.

Speaker 1: 2:45

Um, if, if, if someone were listening to this podcast and they're like man, I really don't know what to get malcolm for christmas, what would? What would you say? Like, if, like, what is this? What is someone like you? Um, and I say that with as much disdain as possible, yeah, I understand that uh, what? What brings you joy?

Speaker 2: 3:05

the answer is really answered really easy. Uh, you can pre-order about five to ten copies of my book that's what you can do if you, uh, if you want to do something for me for christmas, okay, okay, easy, easy answer.

Speaker 1: 3:20

There we go so the book, yeah, but you're not. You're not ordering your own book. Uh, I mean, maybe you are, uh, maybe ordering like, well, no, five copies a day, it's a gift to me.

Speaker 2: 3:29

It's a gift to me for other people to get this book, because this, this book, is my gift to you, so your gift to me would be accepting my gift to you no, no, no, you take it, no, you take it, no, you take it.

Speaker 1: 3:44

Um, well, absolutely, um, and we've we heard someone saying that that's what that's all they want for christmas is is your book, um, but so that to make sure our listeners know that I did not set this up to to be a, uh, a, you know, shameless plug for your book, um, I was actually truly asking, like, what, what, what, what would you get if you were like to go to the grocery store, to the mall, or, um, you know, is it just slabs of meat sent to your house? Um, is it?

Speaker 2: 4:15

yeah, I'm just curious, like I, I was, I was truly answering your question. I don't want, I mean, this is the thing about christmas in general, like there, I, I have, I have it's. It's like so, uh, let's talk to my parents. We were talking about this, we have this conversation every every year and stuff, and I don't have, I don't have the really things that I want, and so so I mean we, I mean we were talking last year.

Speaker 2: 4:44

We were like, well, like what are ways that we can the money that we would spend on gifts, yeah, like what would it look like to just like rechannel that into care for the poor things? Like that, like things that, because, like we don't you know a number of, I think, family particularly, I mean, like we've been, we've we've been blessed in some pretty, in some pretty profound ways and uh and so so to think about, well, you know, uh, not just kind of keeping that gift giving in house, but thinking about what it, what it, what it means for us to use those gifts for the good of those, for the good of those in need. So is my serious answer that question uh and uh. And the book thing is also, you know, I think that that also pushes people outwards.

Speaker 1: 5:32

Um, yeah, so well, good, well good, you guys should definitely get his book for christmas, uh, and then you can wrap a piece of paper that says it's coming in february 11th um right basically um, that would be a fantastic gift.

Speaker 1: 5:48

We're gonna have a. We have an author on here a little bit later, uh, uh, to talk about hello darkness, my old friend um, and uh, the darkness, uh, not the band, uh, but the concept, and uh, whether or not we should be afraid of it, um, and that that's another book you can get for christmas. Uh, that, so I I think books are usually what I'm I'm always asking for for, and whether or not we should be afraid of it, and that's another book you can get for Christmas. So I think books are usually what I'm always asking for for Christmas. And so, yes, please, I mean, I've already pre-ordered your book like a year ago and then this book that we're going to talk about.

Speaker 1: 6:18

There's a lot of other books, but in terms of like Christmas reading, I don't necessarily want to read theology stuff, so I prefer, you know, you know, over Christmas something just to kind of take your mind so like comic books or you know what through my phone for a second don't do that, and you know things like that.

Speaker 1: 6:40

I'm a big, big, big Batman fan, so that's where I go. That's where I go. What about you, dear listener? What is your top? I'm a big Batman fan, so that's where I go. That's where I go. What about you, dear listener? What is your top of your Christmas list this year? Hopefully it's the anti-greed gospel by Malcolm Foley, which can be bought anywhere and everywhere, in every bookstore that's ever existed.

Speaker 2: 7:06

Look, I just want people to know that any one of my public appearances period is going to be about the book, at least the next year. So just like if it bothers you, I'm sorry but I'm not going to stop. It's the only way to cut through the fog.

Speaker 1: 7:20

When are we going to see an end cap at Walmart with you standing there? Look, hey, start requesting it.

Speaker 2: 7:27

If people pre-order the book in enough bulk, then it can show up. It's on Target's website. I think it might be on Walmart's website too, but, like I said, that's why these pre-order numbers are so important, because they indicate to these stores we need to stock this book, love it, and if we're going to undermine the racial capitalist empire, you got to do it one book at a time. There you go Just saying so, how can?

Speaker 1: 7:54

you step in to undermine the racial capitalist empire.

Speaker 2: 7:58

Look.

Speaker 1: 7:59

Buy this book, get in on it, get in On the ground floor. Well, if you want to send in what you are looking forward for towards for Christmas, send us an email. You can send us the question button on your podcast listening device, or you can email us at hello at theologyandpiecescom. We haven't checked our mailbag in a while, so we can go check and see if there's any in there, but I'd love to see what you are interested in that regard. You know what we need, though, malcolm. What we need, what do we need.

Speaker 1: 8:36

We need a little bit of terrible tweets. Oh boy, because you know it's been a little long, it's been a while and I feel like that's just, it's a palate cleanser. It's what we need in our life. On today's version of Terrible Tweets, this is one that I think I sent you a little while ago. This is from it's hard, because it's hard when you hear something from someone that you respect and then they go on and they just. You realize people are complex and you realize it's good. It's good to see your heroes flaws, because, because no one's perfect. And so this is from at Grimke Seminary, they were doing their own podcast and one of the, the what's his title? At the seminary? He, he might be the president of the seminary uh, doug logan um, but the, the on their twitter at grimke seminary it says new podcast seminary is for men. Pastoring is masculine, so the tone and discourse in pastoral education must also be masculine. Was that you trying to do the trombone sound effect?

Speaker 2: 9:55

No, that was just a deep groan.

Speaker 1: 10:00

So Doug Logan, I think, is the president of the seminary Grimke Seminary. So Doug Logan, I think, is the president of the seminary Grimke Seminary. He was early on kind of a coach for myself when we were first starting the church, and so it pains me, it kind of pains you to probably critique a parent or to kind of go back and this kind of pains me. But this is just so egregious to say, Our very first and second episode, I think, we talked about women in leadership or maybe whatever Early episodes. We talked about women in leadership and how we shifted our view on that and how important it is. So it's not as if he's even just wrestling with women in pastoral leadership. It's whether or not women should be in the seminary at all, Because seminary is for men and pastoring is masculine. So the tone and discourse in pastoral education must also be masculine. Malcolm, where would you start with that?

Speaker 2: 11:03

Just our base definitions of what masculinity and femininity are, because most of those are culturally conditioned. So to say that theological education is a masculine thing, that seems weird to me. I want every Christian to be theologically educated. Um, and seminaries are one of the primary places where that, where that, takes place, although it also ought to be happening in church, in church context. In church context too, um, people think that seminaries are places of actual kind of theological and pastoral formation, and I deeply believe that the local church is where that really happens. Seminaries can expose you to certain resources, but ultimately the real work happens in the church. But to limit that, like I said, just to limit that to men, it's just not helpful for our communities. We need everybody to have access to those resources.

Speaker 1: 12:05

Why wouldn't you want that? Why wouldn't you want? I went to a seminary that had men and women in it.

Speaker 2: 12:11

Well, the reason why some of the folks on the podcast said that you wouldn't want that is because men censor themselves around women and so because of that, you just kick women out of those spaces. I don't understand that particular logic. I was like that's, but because men can't fully be themselves in a seminary setting.

Speaker 1: 12:34

Like, is that trying to say, like we need to be like the, the whole locker room talk like we need to have, uh, just brash, um, unfilled like, but in a seminary, as if, like, that's ideal, um, what, what level?

Speaker 2: 12:50

of conversation.

Speaker 1: 12:51

Do you want um?

Speaker 2: 12:52

I know the example is. The example somebody gives is like you know, guys don't want to be, guys would be embarrassed about being wrong in front of in front of women or whatever. I'm just like look that that sounds like a personal problem and you deal with that as a personal problem, not as a thing that you like write off all women for that sounds like something you might have to start figuring out prior to pastoral ministry, that you can't be wrong in front of people, in front of women in particular.

Speaker 1: 13:21

Yeah, um, it also makes me think about like, just like the, the very basic definition of like, what is pastoring and um, why it says is pastoring is masculine? Um, because there's, there's things, even when we, we had a our, you know, we, we held more of the complement, complementarian view there's things that we had women, uh, the women were doing that was shepherding, that was pastoring. Um, yeah, and then, but we knew that, you know, within the denomination and within that current framework, they were not allowed to be kind of have that official title, and yet they were still pastoring, they were still shepherding people. And that's where I'm going. What is what is pastoring that we would say is inherently masculine? And I don't know what that I don't know how you define that, um, it, it, whether you, if you're complementarian, we, I know complementarian churches that have women that are shepherding other people, that is, you would say, pastoring other people. And so what is, what about that is is is masculine. I don't, I do not get that that is is is masculine. I don't, I do not get that. Um.

Speaker 1: 14:28

So that I just read, I saw that and I was like oh no, and I felt compelled to say you know, this is something I want to encourage people. It's it's not as much as like when you can throw lobs and grenades at, like the other side, but it's when you find you're able to like, challenge your your own tribe. I'm like you know, I want to, I want to celebrate that. And I was like oh gosh, uh, grim key seminary is not necessarily my, your own tribe. I'm like you know, I want to, I want to celebrate that. And I was like, oh gosh, uh, he grim key seminary is not necessarily my, my own tribe, but but doug was definitely instrumental, uh, early on, uh, for myself in this church. And so I was just like I gotta, I gotta gotta say something about that. That, that ain't, that, ain't right no but uh, another terrible tweet, malcolm.

Speaker 1: 15:05

This comes from one, julie. Roy's people don't seem to like Julie. I don't get it. Julie Roy's follow her on Twitter. She's fantastic, but she tends to point out some inconsistencies in churches and where there's people kind of throwing stuff under the rug, and so she's. Why not have a voice for the voiceless? And so, anyways, she reports that Hal Lindsey died last week at the age of 95. Do you know Hal Lindsey, malcolm? Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 15:52

He's the famous author of the late great Planet Earth and it's kind of spurred this dispensational. I mean, he didn't spur it, but he kind of made it more popularized.

Speaker 2: 16:11

He didn't spur it, but he kind of made it more popularized thinking around kind of this end times and connected it to reading Revelation and thinking of it as all futuristic which is, I think— Rapture and Christian Zionism, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 16:14

Yeah, yeah. So it was very applicable to us at Mosaic as we're going through the book of Revelation, so I thought let's talk about this for a second. But he died last week at the age of 95. But part of her post. The thing that frustrates me is he was not only one of the best-selling authors on biblical prophecy topics, he's also one of the nation's wealthiest ministry executives. From 2013 to 2023, he and his wife received $18. Million in compensation for from his non-profit. So for 10 10 years, he received 18.5 million in compensation from his non profit well, maybe it's over the course of those 10 years.

Speaker 2: 16:57

That's only like 1.8 million dollars a year. It's fine. Look man, if you can get it, you can get it.

Speaker 1: 17:07

Oh my gosh, uh this is the anti-greed gospel over here. That is wild, that is wild, and to me it just points out kind of what his, what his brand is. Um was predicting the end of the world through the book of revelation and other um scriptures, um, but many times it was more just thoughts, um, and he would say it's from scripture um and it not coming true, because he was famously predicting wrong dates and things like this. But it reminds me, and it kind of flows into our conversation today with Cody, how profitable fear mongering is and how profitable it is to say no, here's what will happen and we have the inside track. So buy this book and you will now know, so that you can avoid this, this, you know, impending doom that is about to hit.

Speaker 1: 18:14

And it's just, oh, man, which kind of reminds me of like to think about as we, as we talk about this conversation about fear of be weary, to be weary of those around us today that are peddling in the fear-mongering business. And it never is outright, it's never just like trying to like. Neither was Hal in his time. It was like no, this is scripture, this is legitimate. You should take this serious, and I think there's versions of that going on around today for us to look around and go like man. You seem really confident about how things will happen and maybe that's how God will do it, but he seems God seems very clear that no one knows the day or the hour, and so I don't really care what you have to say. Why don't you tell me more about God's character and God's beauty and what he has done, rather than what he's going to do? That seems to be a type of person that I could follow and trust a little more, so so, yeah, I rock with that. Did you grow up reading some of the dispensational stuff?

Speaker 2: 19:21

No, nope, nope, none of that Was that dispensational stuff no, no, nope, none of that was that. That was this. Is I in in the black baptist church that I was up in? And also, no, I mean besides, I mean I got into left behind kind of on my own.

Speaker 1: 19:35

Uh, I think my grandma read, read, read, uh, read some of them too which is fair to say, that left behind is the, the fictional narrative, kind of giving um a story, kind of teeth to what Hal Lindsey theology right. So it's not necessarily like this is it, but it's saying like here's how it could be based off of these theological truths.

Speaker 2: 19:58

Yeah, yeah, and I, you know, thoroughly enjoyed those books. As a matter of fact, I should revisit them at some point. But, I mean theologically it's. I was going to say trash, but trash.

Speaker 1: 20:15

You can say it, but exciting books. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:19

Spiritual warfare fiction is great. Warfare fiction is is is great. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean it. It was soon after that that I, when I actually started investigating it theologically, I found myself going in another direction. Um, yeah, but yeah, I mean, you know, we all, we all want to think about ourselves in the midst of, in the midst, in the midst of cosmic battle. Uh, and we are in the midst of cosmic battle, but it's not so much it's, it doesn't look like, it doesn't look like that. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:55

Yeah, but that's not but your background about the end times. This was nowhere near that. You wouldn't even sniff this. I feel like this was the waters I swam in and didn't even know it. You know, it's kind of like this is what all the teachers believed and thought, but I didn't know that that's. It was kind of like, yeah, just assume like this is how the world will end and this is when the rapture will be, and this is all of that.

Speaker 2: 21:16

Yeah yeah, I, I wasn't. Uh, I can't, I can't remember a lot of my mental and spiritual energy being expended on those questions.

Speaker 1: 21:30

Oh man, I got stories.

Speaker 2: 21:31

I'm sure.

Speaker 1: 21:35

I think we should, maybe prior to the end times we should do a series on this.

Speaker 2: 21:42

And I wonder how much of this is a racialized conversation to like, how much of this is like white people wanting to, wanting to be a part of this cataclysmic, this cataclysmic future or whatever, and it's and as a way of escaping responsibility for some other, for some other, uh, you know, as as a as a kind of shield from thinking about other material, other material realities you just think about, yeah, out there, yeah, all that kind of stuff, but anyway, that's, that's another, that's that's a, that's a conversation for another day that's good.

Speaker 1: 22:25

That's good. Yeah, let's, let's put a pin in that and let's let's revisit that um in a few weeks or, uh, as we get closer to our end times. Uh, time conversation with revelation. But I just thought you know, reading this about how lindsey's death and you know we mourn anyone's death um, but just to see the amount, of money he created and how he profited off of all this end times.

Speaker 1: 22:45

And just I thought it was like man that's perfect Talking about like profiting off of fear and the conversation about to have with Cody Balfour. And so tune in for a second. We will have Cody on here in just a minute talking about not being afraid of the dark, which neither Malcolm or I have a problem with All right y'all Well, welcome back.

Speaker 1: 23:17

We are now joined by one, cody Balfour, who serves as the Director of Family Life at Koinonia Church in Nashville, tennessee, with some good friends of ours, the Edmundsons, and so we're delighted to meet you. But we're here to talk to you about your new book, don't Be Afraid of the Dark, which just came out this May. Is that correct?

Speaker 4: 23:39

Yeah, so it came out this past July.

Speaker 1: 23:41

This past July. Okay, okay, yeah, and is this your first book?

Speaker 4: 23:46

Yeah, yeah yeah, first time First of many.

Speaker 2: 23:53

I want to read one of the endorsements for this book. Okay, the endorsement reads we need constant reminders that Christ is the answer to our fear, not the accumulation of money and power. Balfour's devotional reminds us of that fact over and over again, relentlessly pointing us to the cross when we are tempted to look elsewhere. A spirituality guided by his book will take us directly to our needy neighbors, precisely where the kingdom of God is to be found. Don't be afraid of the dark is a blessing to the body. This comes from a certain oh Reverend, dr Malcolm Foley.

Speaker 4: 24:28

What a surprise. I knew that was you. That was a sweet Apparently. That guy likes it, that's right.

Speaker 1: 24:39

Oh, that's great. That's great so clearly y'all know one another. How long have y'all y'all y'all know one another. How, how, how long have you known? Y'all known each other?

Speaker 4: 24:48

About a few years, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:52

Yeah, through the Edmondsons.

Speaker 4: 24:55

Uh, I think just online, I just I followed Dr Malcolm and, um, yeah, it's really resonated with his voice, and then we would just chat back and forth.

Speaker 1: 25:03

Love it.

Speaker 4: 25:04

Uh, and and then uh, I, I, I figured you know, I found out he's Christian. So, uh, yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:11

Oh yeah, oh yeah, well, sweet, well, um can let's start by you telling us a little bit about you know yeah, so it was really um, it was supposed to be a very different book.

Speaker 4: 25:31

It was supposed to be a book that kind of dealt with fear from all kind of perspectives, um, and a more traditional book, not a devotional yeah but, uh, I started writing it in 2021 and part of it was because I was dissatisfied with a lot of the discourse on anti-racism, on misogyny and on classism, really the many ways in which oppression kind of materializes in our society, and not that those things didn't need to be named, but I felt that it was almost as if, with with all those issues, a lot of writers are saying, well, just stop doing those things. Right, just stop it.

Speaker 4: 26:14

And I was like, okay, you know that's not horrible, but I'm like what's underneath that and uh, as particularly, um, when it comes to racism, what's underneath race and uh, you know, in my reading of the scriptures and just general reading of different books, it seemed to be anxiety and that if we're not really having the conversation about anxiety, we're not really having a productive conversation about how to change these things. If you want to have a conversation, kind of as a critique, that's great and I think there's room for that and that's necessary. But if we want to bring about change, I think we really need to talk about our nation's collective anxieties and fears that cause them to vote in certain ways, that cause them to make certain decisions, some of which hurt themselves, but they make those decisions anyway. And so, you know, in a devotional format, I always try to make the case that that's anxiety.

Speaker 1: 27:17

Yeah, I was struck by that. I kind of came to it. I wasn't prepared for it to be kind of the devotional way of reading that and I thought it was refreshing because of I think maybe kind of what you were hitting, hinting at and is that that's what we need right now? Um, just to kind of kind of walking through scripture, kind of guiding us through this. Uh, so I love that, love that part of that. Um, was there? Was there a go ahead, malcolm?

Speaker 2: 27:44

It's. It's fascinating that I think that you narrate this through the lens of anxiety. As you know, I narrate all this stuff through the lens of greed, but what's interesting to me is that the anxiety line I mean, just as Christ calls us not to be greedy, he also calls us not to be anxious greedy uh, he also calls us not to be anxious, and, and and it is which is, and this is, this is, uh, this is in some ways, a dicey. This is, in some ways, a dicey conversation, because people, because especially with, especially with epidemics of mental illness, like, like, like and things like that, it is, it is, it is, um, uh, it's touchy for me to enter into a conversation and suggest that, hey, like, maybe this anxiety is actually a sinful anxiety. How does, does, does, does that? You know, how does, how does, how does, how? Does that kind of thinking play out throughout? Or how has it played out, whether through the writing of your book or you're continuing thinking through these issues, that anxiety can also be something that we're morally culpable for.

Speaker 4: 28:56

Absolutely yeah, cause do you cause at one point you are making a choice to live into that anxiety. But yeah, so the way I was thinking about it is, you know, if you look kind of in the last few decades I'm sure much longer through evangelicalism and kind of just American Christianity this conversation about anxiety has been very disappointing and discouraging for those who really struggle with debilitating anxiety in a clinical way. And so, for example, one of the things I would hear preachers say was, like any type of worry or any type of anxiety is sin right. And then you realize, well, the Bible doesn't actually say that, but because Jesus says do not worry, they think, oh well, then if you worry, that's sin. But it's not the tone Jesus is really using.

Speaker 4: 29:51

There's a line in the book where I say that God is not really speaking as a drill sergeant just kind of how we interpret some of those passages but he's speaking as a father. It's kind of you know, let's say you have a young child and there's a storm and it's really loud outside, there's lightning and things, and they get scared and they come to one of their parents and, uh, the parent just holds them and kind of pats them on the back and says it's okay, right, that's in my reading of the scripture. Uh, how God is saying do not worry, do not be anxious, do not fear. And then also, when you look at it, even in just kind of an anthropological way, anxiety is a very neutral thing, or it's not necessarily good and bad. Anxiety can save your life in some cases and anxiety can crush you in some cases.

Speaker 4: 30:35

And so I think what God is saying in the scriptures is not to be shaped by your anxiety, not so much as Him kind of pinpointing every time you get anxious, which would be very overwhelming, right, because this happens all throughout the day, especially human beings.

Speaker 4: 30:53

We experience differing levels of anxiety and fear every single day, all throughout the day, and I don't think God is that cruel to swat us every time we feel that, but rather he doesn't want to, especially the church, he doesn't want us to be shaped by it and, as you guys have even talked about on your show, that that is something that the American church is shaped by and that is something that evangelicalism is shaped by, rather than what the Bible says over and over again, like trusting the Lord. So, yeah, that's kind of how I think and have thought about writing that topic, hopefully in a redemptive way. You know, one of my goals in reading the book is that anyone who reads it would not feel condemned for feeling anxiety, even though there are anxieties that lead to great harm, but that they would rather, you know, feel God's pull to to liberate them from that anxiety and and and a call to do that.

Speaker 1: 31:51

So yeah, there's a line in your book where you say the the easiest thing to do is to slip into despair. But in every era of darkness there's always a light whom God exalts to remind us of hope, to remind us that we are not alone and do not have to be afraid of the dark. And I I love that because I feel like one of the prominent emotions prominent kind of just coming out of this election season, not political season- out of this election season has just been despair.

Speaker 1: 32:34

I mean, I feel like so many people are dealing with this despair and fear and uncertainty after this election season. What would you have to say, as, as a pastor, uh, maybe you know, pulling from something from your book, or just kind of, maybe you've you've had to say this to people you're, you're pastoring, uh, recently. Like, what do you say to that fear Cause, on one hand, yes, um, there are real implications, um to like some of these fears are legitimate, like some of the worst things we can imagine might actually come true.

Speaker 1: 33:16

But what word of hope can we?

Speaker 4: 33:17

give, to squelch that despair and still give hope. Yeah, so my attempt to write this book about anxiety, where every single devotion is about anxiety that was the thing I wanted to communicate was, you know, the title of my book Don't Be Afraid of the Dark. Like that's what I try to tell people. I try to tell people that, because you know, one of the things Paul says is you know, he says we grieve, right.

Speaker 4: 33:39

But we do not grieve as people who have no hope, and one of the things that I think this is within the very first devotion in my book but having a firm belief in the goodness of God that, yes, bad things happen and yes, oppression happens, and, but if we don't believe that God is good, we will not only slip into despair but we will definitely slip into anxiety, and then we will otherize our neighbor and and hoard from our neighbor, because if there's no good God out there who is watching over me, well then I'm on my own, and, and so that's how I try to walk people through that and and I try to point them to hope of the scriptures, the hope of the resurrection. Hope of the scriptures, the hope of the resurrection. You know the the resurrection is. You know it's just the biggest. You know fist to, uh, you know the evils of injustice that, uh, they killed and uh lynched our savior, um, god brought him out, and then also pointing, uh, you know, one thing I try to point to is really to the black Christian tradition, which is just filled with hope. You know, black folks, we really we know what this is like. Right, this is not the first time this has happened and this is also not the worst it's ever been, and I don't mean to minimize what's happening now because it is very serious. I don't mean to minimize what's happening now because it is very serious, but what I think is happening is, I think actually the rest of the country is beginning to experience a little bit of what Black people have been experiencing throughout the entirety of this nation.

Speaker 4: 35:23

And so, pointing to the Black Christian tradition, as how do people get through these kind of things? And one of the things you see in the Black Christian tradition is a strong sense of community, obviously, a faith. Black people in America, very religious people, and so there's there's always some sort of faith component traditionally that we've we've kind of drawn on generally speaking, and so that's usually how I try to walk people through that, especially nowadays. And you're hearing some people say that like mutual aid kind of community is going to be our best bet to get through this. And I'm like that really comes from the scriptures. You know the early church Christians. All they had was each other, this kind of multiracial coalition of of people following you know the crucified and resurrected savior in the heart of you know a severely oppressive empire.

Speaker 4: 36:11

And so there's much hope in that.

Speaker 1: 36:14

Yeah, that's good. That's good. Was there a personal experience or moment in your life that kind of shaped your perspective on fear? Or on the darkness here that you kind of drew from and kind of, as you're thinking like, as a pastor I'm like trying to preach to people that I can see, but was there something more personal in that regard?

Speaker 4: 36:39

Yeah, it was the summer of 2020, which, you know, we don't look back on that with fond memories but it was in that summer that I was part of a church that where there were many of the congregants who had claimed they were kind of on board with anti-racism stuff and really being pro-justice. And then when the pandemic happens, which kind of eats up all of our emotions at the time because people are dying, there's conspiracy theories flying everywhere, there's misinformation. You know, that was just a really dark time and there was a church split that I witnessed at my church. That happened because of so much of the fear induced propaganda, um, that these people who for years, had been part of a justice oriented church that really to this day still, I think, uh, loves the poor well and tries to stand in solidarity with oppressed people and suffering people.

Speaker 4: 37:43

But it was that summer that I think a lot of people let anxiety get ahold of them and then they left and and yeah, it was, it was really. It was really painful to see that. But that also clarified for me how much anxiety really is a part of this thing, and and even some regret, because I'm like man, maybe if we had had that conversation instead of you know, don't be racist or don't be this right, and it's like that sounds cool, but that's actually just not really helpful. What do you mean?

Speaker 1: 38:19

by that say it again what do you? What do you mean by that?

Speaker 4: 38:24

go and go into that yeah, so it you know, just telling somebody to stop doing something, when the vast majority of human decisions are subconscious, are happening at a level that we're not really even aware of, is not incredibly helpful. And I think the scriptures really I think that's why the scriptures bring so much comfort is because, yes, the Bible is saying repent, the Bible is saying stop to a certain degree, but God is really trying to get underneath this thing, which is why the Lord speaks to anxiety so much in the Bible. And that was part of what kind of rung bells for me as well. I'm like man. This thing is like one of the dominant themes in the scripture. Like man, this thing is like one of the dominant themes in the scripture. Um, you could say it is top five maybe, because, like, the whole point of the scriptures is to foster a trust in the lord. What is the opposite of that trust? Well, it's the anxiety that that god speaks to, um. So, yeah, yeah, I just I think it's deeper and um.

Speaker 4: 39:26

But I also think that's more redemptive, because in the discourse of all kinds of justice issues, if someone is just a racist, right, and that's not incredibly hopeful, because now you've labeled somebody, you're kind of pushing them into the arms of the very people that you kind of want them to get away from because it's dangerous. But if you can instead say you know what, maybe this person is very anxious, how can I, how can I help them, how can I walk through that with them rather than label them something and further marginalize them? And so that's why I think oversimplistic answers kind of do is they kind of just further marginalize people. I think, yeah, we're experiencing that right now. I think that's partially why there are these big political shifts happening is because, in a very great effort to name injustice and to address them, we've marginalized people by doing that, and I think I just don't see Jesus doing that. I see Jesus really getting underneath the issue. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:43

Yeah, how would you describe or define uh fear? Because it seems like um, like we were talking about. You know how lindsey passing and how uh seemed like um, not just him, but many like kind of profiting off of fear, and you can see this in both political parties are constantly pushing us to really choose the other party out of fear against. You know one side and so it's more just fear mongering than it is like putting forward an example of what's good, right and true and holy.

Speaker 1: 41:18

How would you define fear and kind of for us to maybe the kind of self-diagnose ourselves like is this something? Am I a fearful person? Right, am I a fearful person?

Speaker 4: 41:26

Right, I usually try to think of fear as a kind of an emotional sense of a very real or perceived threat, so like threat to your safety, threat to your well-being, threat to your belief system. So we get very anxious when people push on the things that we believe, even though that may not be a physical threat. So that's kind of how I define fear is that sense of very real or perceived threat which, again, I think, makes the idea it doesn't demonize it, because fear. God gave us fear To save our lives as human beings. You know, there's that gut feeling you feel sometimes when you just feel something bad is happening, you're like I need to get out of here, you know, um, and then sometimes it's, it's perceived threats and that's kind of what you're referring to um slim is. Is that is the propagandizing and the fear mongering is trying to find someone to blame, trying to create a threat that a particular political person can defeat on behalf of these people so that they'll vote for them, things like that. Yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:44

Hmm yeah, I'm trying to think through like how to, how to? Yeah, if you were to self-diagnose, like because that you're right, there's the. There's the good fear of like, yeah, this is getting some bad vibes, some, uh, discernment. My wife can, she reads, some reads people. So well, someone walk in the room she'll be like, uh, they're struggling with this and I'm like, how do you know this? You know there's something like something amazing, you know spiritual gift that's happening there. But then there's other perceived. So there's good fear and then there's bad fear. How do you?

Speaker 1: 43:24

know if you are kind of hanging out in the shallow pool of bad fear Are?

Speaker 4: 43:31

there some warning signs, things like that that we can be kind of a more aware of. Yeah, I usually I I try to think of what are the things that I don't want to let go of or that I'm like, uh, I absolutely cannot lose, right and and. Or what are the things that I kind of hold with a very tight grip, right and again, that could be healthy and unhealthy, right? So, like I love my wife, I don't want anything to happen to her. I'm going to, I want to care for her in a way where I hold that close to my chest. But there are other things where, you know, I'm like, okay, why am I holding on so closely to that? Maybe it's a belief, you know, maybe it's a way of life.

Speaker 4: 44:12

Why am I chasing the bag right, like, uh, is there some anxiety in the way that I climb the corporate ladder, you know? Um, so just trying to pinpoint that type of uh, like, what? What kind of loose hands and what do I really grip onto? And that doesn't always tell you exactly what it is, but that will give you some indicators of where you might find that in your life and whether you are an anxious person and whether you're not, but you might still operate in certain areas of your life out of that anxiety, because that is me.

Speaker 4: 44:48

I'm not a particularly you know, I don't struggle with, you know, clinical anxiety or anything like that. But there are decisions I've made that were purely out of anxiety and I was afraid. And one thing they'll talk about in the book is that, you know, making decisions out of hope rather than fear, and even asking yourself, hey, this decision I'm about to make, it could be important, it could not be. Am I doing this because I I believe we can make a better world, or do I? Am I making this decision because, um, you know, I believe that there is no hope and and and I believe that, uh, you know that things aren't going to get better and it's just, you know you manage this just downward spiral.

Speaker 2: 45:34

It's going to get worse and worse and worse slim slim knows this about me, but my, uh, one of my favorite passages of scripture is hebrews 2, 14 and 15 um, where, where, where we're told, uh, essentially the reason, the reason for the incarnation and the reason for Christ's death, that he died in order to break the power of the one who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, and that he died to free those who, all their lives, were enslaved to the fear of death.

Speaker 2: 46:10

And that's interesting because I think one of the most uh, so I'm a big, I'm also a big fan of maximus the confessor, and one of the things that he and one of the things that he presses in that seventh century um conversation about kind of the wills, of the wills of christ, is that is that when christ approaches his death, he approaches his death with a natural fear, like a natural fear of death, um, and, and that that is, you know, when he, when he goes before the father at gethsemane and is sweating blood and all that kind of stuff like that, like what is what's present, there is an actual like is an actual fear of death.

Speaker 2: 46:53

Now, yeah, christ, now christ is not enslaved to that fear, but it is something that he experiences, that he experiences deeply. Um, you mentioned, you mentioned the resurrection. You mentioned the resurrection before, but, but but christologically, as we look at christ's life, death and resurrection. How does how does that, how ought that shape the way that we think about fear and anxiety? What are kind of the first things that come to mind?

Speaker 4: 47:19

Yeah, no that's. I'm glad you brought up that story with Jesus in the garden, because I think that is. That is a point in Jesus's life where there are many emotions going through him. There's fear, but also we know Hebrews also says like he looked to the joy that was set before him, right, so there was hope in Jesus as well, and and also that in that moment you know I'm glad you wrote that up, because sometimes we see Jesus as stoic, because we have this, we have this belief that fear is sin. So Jesus must not have been afraid in the garden. He's just kind of walking zombie and it's like, no, that's not true. He's a human being who felt every emotion that we did. But, as I think about the resurrection and the way in which that relates to our anxiety Because that's kind of the question- Life, death, resurrection.

Speaker 2: 48:16

We can think about the whole. We can think about the whole of Christ. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ascension him on the throne.

Speaker 1: 48:23

Now you just have the whole thing, the whole thing, reflect on wherever the Lord takes you in thinking about the entire life of Christ.

Speaker 2: 48:31

That's right, that's right?

Speaker 4: 48:32

Well, in my experience and I think you can see this throughout, obviously, the Christian tradition for the past 2,000 years. But the resurrection is an event that is so powerful and full of triumph and victory and hope that it is meant to carry people through the darkest of times and and through their anxieties. Um, that you know there's this famous saying in you know, in the black church, that you know it says suffering don't last always. Right, and uh, that that is what the resurrection does to the Christian. And the reason why I think the resurrection is also particularly important is because one of the strange things that Western evangelicalism has done is it is kind of solely focused on the cross and really push the resurrection to the wayside or interpret the resurrection as if it's only something that's meant to prove that Jesus is the son of God, which is kind of typically how you hear the resurrection talked about. That Jesus had to rise from the dead, so it proved he was the son of God kind of uses as an apologetic talk talking point, right, when that's, that's not. That's not what's happening.

Speaker 4: 49:46

When you read this narrative, right, this narrative is meant to inspire hope in a people. You read all four gospels. These are written to people who are suffering under the Roman Empire, right, and so that's what made Jesus such an incredible and popular figure in the early church is like this man was murdered by the Romans and now he's walking again, you know, like this is not the end for us, and not even just, you know, in a way in which we will be resurrected at the end of time, in which we'll go to heaven. But even now these have real implications on the kind of hope that we can latch onto, not kind of a you know, kind of the we think of. The modern Christianity is kind of a pie in the sky, right, that you know until you died. And my pastor, mike, he always says something and I'm sure he got this from somewhere, but he always says you know, the gospel is also steak on a plate while you wait, Right, and and and I love that because that kind of combats that pie in the sky.

Speaker 4: 50:54

you know a theology that says you know the only thing that matters is when we get to heaven, which in many ways has created an apathetic Western, western Christianity and people who don't don't really have a lot of empathy for social issues that that have do real harm. So, yeah, the resurrection gives us tangible there's a bodily resurrection, something that really happened that gives us tangible hope that you know what, you know the election. It was wild, you know, but Jesus rose from the dead. Yes, yes, and that's incredible, but Jesus rose from the dead.

Speaker 4: 51:31

Yes, yes, and, and that is, that's incredible. I mean, just imagine the disciples thinking, yep, the vampire, they got another one and they see Jesus walking and they're like yo, this is incredible, you know. And so, yeah, it's, it's very inspiring. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:51

Yeah, one, one thing I always um am grateful for, um is when I, when I um just reading stories of other people's um, um kind of stories of bravery or courage, um, because it gives us an opportunity to borrow some of their um courage, uh, to borrow some of their bravery, I mean think about it Christina Edmondson-Lyne. Is that what she says? Is that right that?

Speaker 2: 52:18

was what she said when we were at the pastor theologian thing. That was one of her things.

Speaker 1: 52:24

See, this is pastoring. You hear something you're like I don't know, I probably came up with it.

Speaker 2: 52:29

I got to give Dr Christina her props. Give her all credit for that.

Speaker 1: 52:34

But I thought about it, because just thinking about Elijah feeling so alone, on the run from Ahab, and just thinking he's all alone, and then God's like, no, I got 7,000 who've not bowed the knee. That's right, and so it encourages us to have other people, um, alongside of us. And so I say all that to say is there someone that you, you, you use as kind of like a hero that you've borrowed from to see some of their, their courage in the face of fear or uh, whatnot, that you've, you've seen kind of acts of, uh, bravery against, um, the anxiety, um, that have not succumbed to despair? That you've been able to borrow from kind of as an inspiration in writing this book?

Speaker 4: 53:17

Yeah, absolutely. You know this is kind of typical, but you know I look to Dr King often, I read his writings often, because they're so full of hope and you know, when you read about everything this man went through, you know I'm at a point right now where I'm like I'm done having this, this race conversation with, with, with folks that just you know I'm like, come on, we need to, we, we need to strategize, we need, we need to focus, like that, if somebody else feels called to to, you know, teach, teach these folks, folks, uh, their their abcs, um, you know that's, that's fine. But you know I'm like, let, let's, let's coalesce with the people, let's get a coalition going with the people that that get it and and all of it out.

Speaker 4: 54:01

Um, but saying I say that in light of dr king, who went through such tremendous suffering for the cause of the civil rights movement and was able to, just I mean sometimes I don't get it. I mean I know it comes from Jesus, but I'm like there are just there are not a lot of figures I've seen who were able to keep going. I mean this man had been stabbed, his house had been bombed, you know he'd been punched. I mean like so many things that even us, many of us today, who are victims of oppression, have not been, and he was able to keep on going. And so I'm often reading Dr King and listening to his sermons and really just processing, like how is this man able, able to do this? For you know, uh, much of the 50s and and almost all of the 60s, um it's hard too, because brother brother did get tired.

Speaker 1: 55:01

Uh, especially he did yeah, where do we go, especially in?

Speaker 2: 55:03

those last, especially in those last few years, man, because he's I mean when he starts talking about you know his, his fear of whether he's integrated his people into a burning house and stuff like that like that, that, that, that that hope was it's and it's interesting as he, as he looks back on um, on especially, uh, you know, the, the speech at the march, at the march on washington, uh, for jobs and freedom, and he's like I mean, I might have been a little too optimistic, it might have been a little a little naive and optimistic then, uh and, and I think like part of that is when he started, when he I mean when he got into his anti-war stuff, when he, when he started to really emphasize the, the, the, the interlocking nature of race militarism and and materialism or what we call racial capitalism, and so how big that is.

Speaker 2: 55:58

when we see how big the problem is, it can, like that, makes despair for some of us even more, even more attractive. But it's also why it's important for us to be deeply rooted in the gospel, because the light of Christ has to be a light that can shine no matter.

Speaker 4: 56:11

No matter how dark you know, no matter how dark the darkness is yeah, well, even you know, even when he writes some of those things, like you know, when he writes, where do you go from here? Which is like one of my favorite reads, yeah, because he just, he really just nails down in such a poignant way the problems. But yet if you, if you read between lines, he still writes with a fervor of hope and of like this is something we can do. But no, I totally agree, he really, I think, you know, I think it seems as if he goes from a point to thinking we just need to get in the same room. You know, we used to get black people need to get in the same room.

Speaker 4: 56:51

You know, we used to get black people, white people in the same room and he realized, oh, this is, uh, these, these are huge systems um not that he didn't know that before, but you know, uh, yeah, I think he realized the thing was way bigger than he had initially thought he's got the line where he says I I fear my dream has become a nightmare. Isn't that right, uh, after you know, I'm like that yeah a year later um after that yeah no, yeah, uh, speaking of nightmares um isn't this supposed to be hopeful?

Speaker 1: 57:28

I'm going a different direction. Uh, with all of this, uh, concern about fear and anxiety. Um, what's your take on horror movies?

Speaker 4: 57:39

you know it's funny I was. I've always dreamed someone would ask me that question well, here we go yes, I just. I don't understand them, my brother. I don't understand them, my brother.

Speaker 1: 57:51

You don't understand them? I don't, I don't understand.

Speaker 4: 57:54

You're like. I don't understand.

Speaker 4: 57:57

Here's my thing about horror films. And again, if you like horror films, that's great, there's nothing wrong with that. But I've always found it deeply strange to put it lightly that people would be entertained by being afraid, right by being scared. I find that really strange. I don't want to demonize it, but I just I'm like I just have never, never gotten that. I've never liked that. I'm like I'd rather feel good when I'm watching something you know or when I'm listening to something. I'd rather feel good. The adrenaline, the adrenaline man, yeah.

Speaker 1: 58:31

So here's my theory, because you're talking to Malcolm and myself, who both love horror movies.

Speaker 2: 58:38

And, just like you are, I'm a very dark personality, though, so that's why Go ahead.

Speaker 1: 58:43

Slim. I think some like it for other reasons apparently, but I think, just like you, may turn on a, a sitcom, to escape the world and just laugh and, you know, feel good. I think horror movies also act that way, um, at times, because it's so over the top frightening. If it's a good horror movie, and let me tell you, smile too.

Speaker 1: 59:05

That was an intense movie. I highly recommend it. Top 10 horror movie of all time in my book. I mean from start to finish. I am freaking out, but because of that I just spent an hour and a half or two hours not worried about the true horrors of today. So, whether that's good or not, I'm just talking about the escape. Whether that's good or not, I'm just talking about, like the escape. I think that might be why people enjoy it so much is because you're, you're, you're completely glued to this monster on the screen, not to the monster on the.

Speaker 4: 59:39

TV.

Speaker 1: 59:40

Um, that's telling that that's a real one.

Speaker 4: 59:42

Um right, well, you know, sometimes I wonder too and I feel like this is just kind of how bad dreams work as well. But I wonder too, if, uh, how, how many people love the feeling of it being over and realizing oh you know, my life isn't that bad, like I'm not being chased by yeah?

Speaker 4: 1:00:02

you know a monster or or whatever, a serial killer, you know, and I think sometimes we have those kind of dreams as well, like, sometimes we have dreams we wake up and we're like, oh man, I wish that was real, like because that was really good. Or we have dreams we're like yo, I'm so glad I woke up you know yes yes.

Speaker 1: 1:00:19

And then there's there's probably part of that where it's like life, that you're like, oh, this isn't a dream, oh, this is real.

Speaker 4: 1:00:25

Uh, yeah, I feel like that's happened a lot in the last 10 years where it's just like how is this real? You just had a dream that was your real life, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:30

Right. Yeah. Yeah, well, if there is someone listening here today who is kind of struggling with anxiety, and if it's, you know we're saying all the qualifiers if it's clinical, then we obviously see a professional and all of that. Right, right and all of that. But if someone were to come to you and that is struggling and I kind of asked this earlier, but just kind of, maybe, as we close out what are some practical steps or exercises in this book that readers can use to confront those fears? Anything you would give them.

Speaker 4: 1:01:03

Yeah, I would. You know, one of the things I try to encourage in the book is kind of the means of grace that we have kind of passed down from generation to generation throughout church history being in the scriptures prayer. I know it sounds cliche, but we even know there's I mean, there's data that says that when people pray, anxiety decreases.

Speaker 4: 1:01:28

And again, I think what we're looking for in the fight against anxiety is not a cure but rather relief, and because you know anxiety is not going to go away, obviously, until Jesus comes back right and until we go to be with the Lord. But I think there are ways we can find relief and then pursuing community and pursuing diverse community people you know, obviously, that you feel safe with and that feel safe with you, cause there's a lot of times we can be like, yeah, go to a multi-ethnic church and it's like those people don't feel safe around you.

Speaker 4: 1:02:06

You're not a safe person with them, you know so, um, but, uh, finding community, because it's when we get isolated and uh that we are, our anxiety begins to peak, because we're not meant to be alone as as human beings, you know a deeply spiritual, even just an anthropological level. So, really, um, those kinds of practical means of grace, uh, I think are really, they're just, they're incredibly helpful. And we know that right now we live in a loneliness epidemic, Um, and that drives so many bad decisions. I mean, you know, I think there's a, there's even a sort of sexual anxiety that is exacerbated by the loneliness epidemic, which often pushes men and women to make certain, even sexual, decisions that they would not have made had they not been so deprived of a sort of social component in their life that would give them some sense of community, some sense of connection and things like that.

Speaker 4: 1:03:16

So my greatest encouragement is to really find a community. And even for those if you're like, hey, I've been traumatized by the church, I just don't know if I can reenter the church right now, I would say the same thing but just find a different community right now. Just find the community that you feel safe with, even if it's, if it's not a church, Uh, and and because it is often in those spaces where people can tell us hey, it's okay, you know well what you're going through, it's going to be okay, but you don't get that by yourself, you know so that's great.

Speaker 1: 1:03:52

That's great. Well, the his, his book is don't be afraid of the dark. Uh, we'll make sure we link it in. Uh, the show notes. Um, do you have a? Uh, you know a future, future books or projects on the horizon after this? Did this give you the bug to, to, to keep writing, or anything else? We should be looking out for it, did it?

Speaker 4: 1:04:13

did. I hate being the cliche guy, you know, I'm just you know, but yeah, it did. I would like to put out another devotional and yeah, and so I won't say too much and it won't be anytime soon, but I'd like to put out a more general one. You know, that's not just kind of one topic but more of a, you know, just kind of a comprehensive. Uh, look through scripture, that's encouraging for people.

Speaker 1: 1:04:37

So that's great. Uh, that's great. And where? Where can people find you if they want to? Uh, look you up for some more?

Speaker 4: 1:04:45

me on uh, yeah, you can find me on instagram at cody uh, cody cubal, for you can find me at twitter with the same handle on threads. Um is as well, and you'll probably, every now and then you'll probably see me and malcolm uh giving each other a spiritual high five, girl. But again, again, thank you guys so much for having me. I've I've been a big fan of the podcast. I've I've listened since you guys first started it and so, um, yeah, I, just I. It really is an honor. I do appreciate it on a serious level, oh that we very much appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:21

Uh, we highly recommend. Uh, as you are Christmas purchasing, uh, grab this book for the new year. Grab it, pick it up. I do highly recommend it and the devotional aspect about it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:33

If you want to start off 2025, can you believe it? 2025, right, I know? Start off using this to kick off your devotions in 2025. We'd love for you to enjoy that and tell others about it. So well. Thank everyone for listening to another episode of theology in pieces podcasts, as we always say. If you found any of this helpful, would you give it a rating and review, leave five stars and then share? Share the the episode if you want to tell someone about cody in this book and maybe encourage someone to to not live in the gripping fear that is plaguing us all right now. So again, thank you. Thank you, cody, malcolm. Good to see you from afar. Thanks, man.

Speaker 4: 1:06:20

Bye y'all. Thank you next time.