Speaker 2: 0:15

oh yeah hey, everybody I know you've been begging for it. We're back Back at it and we got, as you can hear, some new music. It took us three months to figure out what song to choose.

Speaker 3: 0:31

You guys are just getting a glimpse into Slim's aesthetic, musical taste. That's what this is. That's the Slim vibe.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Oh man, Welcome to Theology Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church and the world or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your hosts. Slim and Malcolm. And today we have a very, very special guest. Oh, we do, do we? Oh, this new, critically acclaimed, very critical of this author one, Malcolm Foley. Uh-oh. Woo, and he is presenting his new book the anti greed. Gospel Drum roll a little bit long.

Speaker 3: 1:17

Let's give a round of applause, thank you. Thank you, yes, it's good to be with you.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Studio studio live audience here. It's good to be with you. So studio studio live audience here, it's good to be with you. Yeah, man, we have to. We have to apologize to our, our, our listeners here. Uh it it. It has been three months. Oh gosh, we've recorded, which is a big no-no, hopefully we still have listeners at this point in the podcast world. Um, if, if it was only your mom and mine to begin with, it might just be yours.

Speaker 3: 1:50

We lost mine. As we both know, it was never our wives.

Speaker 1: 1:58

This is 100% true, our wives keep us humble and remind us no one ever listens to you.

Speaker 2: 2:09

But no, it has been a long time since we've recorded. Some of that is because we've been busy. Some of that has been because we've been sick. Some of that has been because, malcolm, it has been preparing for this big day this monumental day yes, of his book release. So he's been on lots of other podcasts. So he's been podcasting all the time. Uh me, on the other hand, I've just been listening to the podcast.

Speaker 1: 2:37

It's been great, but, uh, in the last, let's say since december, malcolm, uh, what's been going on in your life? Anything new, anything I mean besides this giant.

Speaker 2: 2:40

You know, I'm in book mode, you're in book mode. But in the last, let's say since December, malcolm, what's been going on in your life? Anything new, anything besides this giant mountain.

Speaker 3: 2:48

I'm in book mode, you're in book mode, I'm in book mode, man, I'm just telling people about the book spreading the good news of the anti-greed gospel. That's what's going on, man.

Speaker 2: 2:57

Yes.

Speaker 3: 2:57

It's been a joy.

Speaker 2: 2:58

Yeah, for me, let's see. I think also some of the reasons I've been like all right, here's what we're going to do. We're going to get excited. One thing I think one of the reasons that we have not recorded a bunch is one I'm just feeling my age man. I think I'm getting old and I've gotten injured so much in 2025. It's like what is happening to me. I really injured my shoulder. I've been doing PT physical therapy for that for a while now. I just last week really injured my calf muscle. It's all on the left side, so it's been great. I'm just like all right, what's happening? So I just feel you know, old man problems here.

Speaker 3: 3:47

But on a positive note, man, I have been loving our uh through the book of revelation.

Speaker 2: 3:49

Oh, it's so good so oh, so good if you are dear listener, uh, and we know we are. We are worldwide, outside of our our two moms listening, uh, listening here, if you see. If you are not in waco, uh, we are. Our church in waco is going through the book of Revelation and, man, I almost wanted to hijack the rest of this podcast this spring and just go deeper, because there's only so much you can say in a sermon, but there is so many images to unpack and things to talk about with the book of Revelation.

Speaker 3: 4:17

What a time to go through that book Slim. What makes you say that? What makes you say? That I mean. I just I'm not saying that we're looking at THE Antichrist. We're definitely looking at AN Antichrist, but you know it is what it is.

Speaker 2: 4:39

It is what it is. I just did the rim shot for the sake of lighting the load. I would say honestly, I can make the excuse of old, I can make the excuse of sick and tired. I'll be honest, I think, some of my reluctance to do anything else, I think maybe there's been a collective weightiness because of the sheer storm and hurricane that is this new administration. It's just a blitz, just blitz, over and over again.

Speaker 2: 5:13

And I know that they've said this is their plan. That's the strategy man To flood the zone, as Steve Bannon has called it. As Steve Bannon has called it, and if you voted for Trump, if you voted for, if you identify as Republican, this is not me going now Say it Slim, Do it. This is not me saying it. Do it Slim. Democrats are the answer.

Speaker 3: 5:41

I think the book of Revelation and this Look I can tell you what ain't the answer. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry, I think. The book of Revelation. And this, Look I can tell you what ain't the answer. Anyway, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 5:46

Sorry, I think the book of Revelation has reminded me of how unbelievably bestial empires are. It's true, and I think what we have now seen in the American throne and some want to make it a throne, and we've had a president joking about. Long live the king.

Speaker 3: 6:11

Quote unquote joking.

Speaker 2: 6:16

It's unmasked how throne and bestial the American empire is. And yes, quote, unquote, joking. I think, dude, when I see, when I see these jokes, this reminds me of when you see kind of people, and I'm not saying this is exactly right, but we do have a president who has been um, um accused and um proven, uh, to have have made and paid off um, and so he's very, very sexually promiscuous person and he's also on tape saying just grab them by the right. So we have someone who's it. Just it makes me think of someone who's like, hey, I'm just gonna make it's just a joke, it's just a joke until it's a reality. And so I'm like are they softening us for this? Um? So, man, we just went straight into it, malcolm, because we haven't talked for so long about this that's such a long.

Speaker 3: 7:12

Look, man, I think about the proverb, I think about the proverb Proverbs 26, 19. It's Proverbs 26, I think it's 18 and 19. And it says if I'll just take a second to pull it up, it says like a maniac shooting flaming arrows of death is one who deceives their neighbor and says I was only joking.

Speaker 2: 7:43

Read that again.

Speaker 3: 7:50

Read that again. I'll say that again. Read that again again. Uh, like a maniac shooting flaming arrows of death is one who deceives their neighbor and says I was only joking. I'm gonna leave that without comment.

Speaker 2: 7:58

Uh that is just describing that, what? And I I think I've recently heard uh JD Vance saying, like, what is masculinity? Masculinity is is uh telling jokes. Um, it's having the ability to to say it's just a joke.

Speaker 3: 8:15

Um it's so that, that, that, that proverb seems to uh.

Speaker 2: 8:21

Okay, seems to hit there. Well, okay, seems to uh.

Speaker 1: 8:28

Okay, seems to hit there well, okay, um, but since we're on the topic of, of our, our favorite government, um, man, we just because it's been it, because it's been the hurricane yeah, and we haven't talked about it at all the flood, the zone in this context

Speaker 2: 8:38

since I mean, we're in february, we're at the end of february, and so january and february have just been so much to and not to review, because, cause, if you're you're like, okay, it's now, whenever you're listening to it, march and you're going like I don't really want to go back then, cause probably a lot's happened since then, but I just there's just been some like important things that have happened since this, this, this new administration has come in in, um, and I just I, I I have looking back on it and I, I we're not political commentators, but we do live in this and we are, we are, we are, we are citizens. Um, my frustration is with the church baptizing what these political leaders are doing. It's one thing to say no, that's that's the political leader, but it's not to say like no, this is right, just and true, like this is the expression, like that, this is god's savior to our we've been compromised.

Speaker 3: 9:27

We've been compromised for a long time.

Speaker 2: 9:28

So and so, like I'll tell you, I had a lot of qualms with with biden, with with kamala, with you making the most lethal military, like oh yes, but I didn't hear anyone baptizing it and saying like this is the christian way. It is constantly being said like this is the way, and so, uh, where do we start? Malcolm? Like just just yesterday we had president trump uh retweeting or putting out this, this trump gaza, which, if you don't know it's there's a song, there's a like an ai generated video um of trump just taking.

Speaker 2: 10:07

What is this? I mean it describes kind of this you know, this war-torn uh image of of gaza, which it is because we've been sending, uh, we've been sending military bombs to go in but america's gonna develop it and put up a giant golden statue of Trump. This shows you I grew up on VeggieTales, my first thought was the bunny.

Speaker 3: 10:31

Ooh, I love the bunny, Don't love my mom or my dad just the bunny, the bunny, the bunny, oh, um.

Speaker 2: 10:39

But what that the bunny song was actually retelling was the story of nebuchadnezzar and, before I even thought of the buddy and the the that song, I cannot stop thinking about trump as a modern day nebuchadnezzar as one who sees himself as like the, the person he's gonna in, he 100 would create a statue like that. Yeah, whether it happens or not. He just posted this video and be like as approval of this, because he said he wants to go into Gaza and make it the, the Riviera of the middle East, and everyone's like what you're going to take people's land and how are you going to? Are you pushing people out? Is this, is this modern day genocide? Like yes.

Speaker 2: 11:30

Yes, and at the same, yes, like, and so I'm just I was like it's the end of Nebuchadnezzar is he ends up in this as, like it says, like he's got this almost like feathers but almost like a wolf um, um kind of fur on him and he's out in a field and he's lost his mind is the end of nebuchadnezzar's life, he? And so it's in a way I've always talked about. He's like he became him, he became a werewolf. Uh, is the end of nebuchadnezzar after, like this lust for so much power and so much, uh, authority corrupts you, doesn't just corrupt everything else around you, it corrupts you because doesn't just corrupt everything else around you, it corrupts you because no human being is meant to have that much power. Nope.

Speaker 2: 12:10

As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and, yes, it corrupts everything but including you. And so I'm just like is this what's going to happen? Is Trump going to, and are we seeing signs of him already losing his mind, Like?

Speaker 3: 12:24

well, you know. And he's also got the richest person in the entire world right next to him doing whatever he wants. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:34

I don't understand how you have the richest person in the entire world, with Elon Musk, paired with someone who's like trying to run on being like this populist, like the man of the people matter.

Speaker 3: 12:49

Like it's. They don't seem to work together. Well, you look at his tech, look, you look at his, look at trump's most recent tax policies and it's going to raise taxes for everybody who's not, who's not making 300k and above, like that's what you? You there's. No, he doesn't. He doesn't care about you, insofar as there are people who make under three hundred thousand dollars a year listening to this podcast. Uh, he doesn't.

Speaker 2: 13:12

He doesn't care about you and so there's, there's this, there's the trump guys that just yesterday, and then there's like maybe the most important thing that's coming out is how he's siding with russia yeah, that's a whole, and and calling zelensky a dictator, and so we are now on the side of russia and china and north korea we're the baddies now, like we're the baddies now and so this is, this is absolutely wild.

Speaker 3: 13:37

I've been okay, okay, so it's not look, look, man, and this part of part of it is because we've folks, have gotten used to thinking about. So, there, I mean, there are some people for whom this is really surprising because you're used to thinking about the united states as the good guys and uh, and one of the things this is. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna preach the sermon now, but sunday I'm preaching romans 13. Sorry, revelation, revelation 13, and and, paired with the apocalyptic literature of the Old Testament, specifically Daniel, the scriptures frame states as apocalyptic beasts. That's what they are, are, um, when they they, they they.

Speaker 3: 14:30

The way that they use, the way that they use power, wealth and propaganda is just like it's. It's evil, but that's how they maintain. That's how they maintain themselves is one of the reasons why it's such a tragedy in first samuel 8, when, when the people ask for a king, because because god's, god's purpose for his people was that they live according to an alternate logic, not the logic of the states around them. And we think that because it's so interesting, we think because of our democratic republic elements and stuff that makes us so awesome when we were also founded in profound exploitation of our neighbors, and things like that, there's evil that lies at the root of the maintenance of all of our political power. We're just used to, like I said, we're used to thinking about ourselves as the good guys, and so when somebody just wants to nakedly run into the arms of greed and ego, we're like, oh no, this is so different. I'm like this is how these things work.

Speaker 2: 15:32

It is and yet but we want. We want better for our world.

Speaker 2: 15:36

We want better for our country, and so we want to fight against it and so it's so shocking when people are hearing someone nakedly go after it and then go no, that's okay, and so like it's just, you know, again, this is all just it's barrage. Just recently, trump had the all the governors on this, this video conference, or this video, or this call, with all these governors in the room and the governor of Maine, um, he calls out by by name and says, like hey, you've not complied, um, and she responds that we will, we will comply with state and federal law. And trump responds we are, yeah, we are the law, yeah. And that is so scary to think that like yeah, whatever he says goes. I mean, that's like it's he's, he wants to be a king. And then he even says, he even quotes, that I don't know for whether it was napoleon or not, but that he who saves his country does not violate any law. Like if, if we want a king, we wouldn't, we would be under, uh, king george. Like well, and you?

Speaker 3: 16:43

know, ideally, you know, ideally, our other branches of government would check, would check the executive branch, but that requires them to have uh, them to have courage, and some of them do and like we're seeing some, we're seeing some pushback, especially in the last few, in the last kind of week or so. Um, but if they, if they want things to be any different, they're gonna going to have to.

Speaker 2: 17:04

Yeah, I mean, this is all things we could be talking about. There's just so much to catch up on, because 2025 has been great. We're just going to call a new segment called.

Speaker 3: 17:17

Terrible 2025.

Speaker 2: 17:23

Because we're not even going to call it tweets anymore this is just ah, things are rough, um. Do you remember? Do you remember way back in in in 2025, when jd vance came out and said, you know, if had that tweet about, if anyone comes to me and does not, um or no, no, he, he comes out. He was talking about how it's it Christian way to love your family, only oh yeah, to love your family.

Speaker 2: 17:50

His order of love, yeah his disordered of loves Like that was way back in 2025. I mean, that was so long ago because so much has happened and it was like he's going against the Catholic Church on this.

Speaker 3: 18:05

Yeah, yeah, he's criticizing the Pope. It's wild. It's wild man.

Speaker 2: 18:10

But Jesus is like no, if anyone comes up to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brother, sister, even his own life, such person cannot be my disciple. If you are a born-again Christian, you've been born again into a bigger family, and so anyways, anyways, there's all of that. And then, just just recently we'll kind of end here because I want to end somewhat hopeful, but not yet um, your favorite uh commentator, megan basham, um, she, she's written a book called uh, um, was it for sale? Uh?

Speaker 3: 18:42

Shepherds for Sale.

Speaker 2: 18:45

We're not necessarily endorsing that book. In fact I don't endorse it and I think there's a lot wrong with it and I think there's a lot of mischaracterizations and half-truths and all of that.

Speaker 3: 18:57

My book is beating it out on at least two or three categories right now, so keep that happening. Anyway, go ahead, love it. Two or three categories right now, so keep that, so keep that, so keep that happening.

Speaker 2: 19:05

Yeah, anyway, go ahead love it, not the one I wanted. That's fine, it's okay, it's okay, yeah, yeah, so in so she, she recently has called out uh, erwin intz, uh, who is uh in the pca, and you know I'm okay if you start calling it the pca. There's things to call out within the PCA.

Speaker 3: 19:28

You like bringing up issues that require like 15 to 20-minute conversations.

Speaker 2: 19:33

I'm just like.

Speaker 3: 19:33

At the end of.

Speaker 2: 19:35

There's so much to talk about. There's so much to talk about. Doing that thing you do. And so she calls out Erwin Enwin for speaking at a black fellowship dinner and basically says you know, this is evidence of racism and having racially segregated things like this. And how this is not in line with the truth of the gospel Trying to use paul's words to peter um against, against erwin here, and and we you know we've had erwin preach at mosaic.

Speaker 3: 20:12

Uh, before um yeah, he's a good dude yeah, good, dude um.

Speaker 2: 20:15

but malcolm, what are your thoughts about this is? Is she right? Is? Is erwin misled um in his his quest to uh, to appeal to the masses during Black History Month?

Speaker 3: 20:26

This is my whole thing about white people talking about using the language.

Speaker 3: 20:33

It's like so in? Hmm, have to be careful about what I'm about to say. I'll talk about it in general. Anyway, are people acting as though the evil of segregation was just kind of keeping people apart, when the evil of it is domination and exploitation? So so, when you ask the question, so, so, so, all this is and I, I, I talk about this in the book why, um, so, so, so, so, historically, black institutions, congregations, exist not because, like, they're oppressive institutions, it's because they went to their white leadership.

Speaker 3: 21:27

So, for example, in the church context, you had black members of these churches who went to their white leadership and said, hey, our worship is being actively restricted, can we go do our, can we go do our thing over there? And instead of repentance, which is the way that that white leadership should have, responded, were like oh, yeah, yeah, it's fine, go over there and do your thing. We might send you some money most likely won't but but go like, go over there and do and do your and do your thing. All this conversation about like reverse racism and all this kind of stuff, nobody is creating any institutions to kill and exploit white people.

Speaker 3: 22:01

Yeah, I'm just, I'm just let's. Let's just say that, yeah, um, and when, and, and, and, and, and, yes, like yes, I want us to be able to build a world where everybody, you know, where everybody is, uh, where everybody's affirmed, feels, welcome, all those, all those kinds of things. Um, but, but you, but you equating somebody being mean to you to jim crow is a, is, is is not only a, is not only a cheapening of jim crow, but it also signifies what I think has been a deeply atrophied moral, moral and ethical imagination. Um and so um, and it's also the fact that, like you got all these people who are not part of this community getting bent out of shape, getting bent out of shape about it, um, when there's no, when there's no indication that it was. That's problematic for the, for the community in question, that is meant to support a particular community that needs that kind of support.

Speaker 2: 22:59

Yeah, I don't have any problem with that so yeah, yeah that's a 15 minute conversation, but the outrage over something you're like, given the, the church history, like you never spoke on this before, you never lamented that the white, that the white church did not respond to the, the church saying, hey, we've been or we are getting. It's kind of like going back into Corinthians where you had the people saying, hey, we're not getting the food, the bread and the wine because the rich are getting drunk and eating all the bread and they're like no. And so Paul directs and says no, you need to eat and drink with conviction of we are one body. We're going to eat together so that everyone can be a part of this. It's also like act six, when you're the, the hellenistic jews, the greek-speaking jews, were being overlooked, and then they appoint all of these, these deacons, uh, to to go meet the widows and their, their greek-speaking, was like. So it's like yeah, let's actually respond in kind with um, the, the needs in front of us here and not judge the group who's had, saying like no, this is actually good for us and because of the injustice that we've had. So, yeah, we could do a whole episode on this and maybe we will. Um, it's just, I'm like man, there's just so much to catch up on, um, but here here's one thing I want to end on positively. Okay.

Speaker 2: 24:25

So, megan Basham disagree with her on pretty much everything. She is still not my enemy. She might be an opponent, but she's not our enemy, and so I was really appreciative. I saw David French tweet out and so not terrible tweets, but a beautiful tweet, because Megan came out earlier this year and revealed that she'd been diagnosed with stage three advanced cancer and she's been a big critic of David French, big critic, and he just sees that and he responds.

Speaker 2: 25:00

I'm so very sorry to hear this. This makes my heart hurt. May god grant you the strength and patience to resolve to meet each day. May god heal you of that cursed disease. And I'm just like, oh, thank you lord, like I want to see more of that response of like we are not enemies here. Uh, it is sin, death and the devil it's, it's cancer. Um, we're going to be disagreed on these things because I don't agree with her on a lot, but not enemies, and so I was appreciative of that. So if you want us to talk more about some of those issues we've talked about, please send us a question. There's that. Send us a question button, say hey, can you guys talk more about this or can you go deeper into that? Also, as we always say know, give us a a like, a rating, a review, that that helps others find the podcast. Um, all that is really helpful as we look, look out of where we're going to go uh, in 2025. All right, malcolm, the time has finally come.

Speaker 3: 26:05

Yep, I know you've never done a podcast on your book yep, um, I've done a lot of them and you can all, you can all google them and there are plenty. There are plenty of things plenty of times, with me answering the same questions over and over again, uh, in many, in many contexts, but right now I want to talk to slim about what he, what he, thought about it. This is about. This is about you, slim. You don't have to ask me the normal questions, yeah I don't ask the normal question.

Speaker 3: 26:31

No, you gotta, I I expect something different. I expect something different from my co-pastor, who's been with me as I've been preaching this material for years.

Speaker 2: 26:41

Dude, this is because, because I know you, um and I love you.

Speaker 2: 26:49

I, when I read this, I feel like not only am I hearing your voice, as I've told other people like I just feel like you're speaking right next to me and, um, but when I read this, I hear not just your voice, not just your argument, I hear your heart, and so like I'm just so happy for you to have this thing out here. It is such a gift, and so if you have yet to get it, we'll make sure we put the link in the show notes. Please go get this book, buy five, it is so it's so so it's so, so good and and I've my my.

Speaker 2: 27:27

my thought after reading at first was like well, duh um, I don't know how you argue with you but maybe that's because I've, you know, I've drunk the Kool-Aid, uh, but here I'm going to argue with you for for a good conversation. So now I've said all the positive things, things. Now here's all the things I hate about it.

Speaker 3: 27:44

Great, um great really excited for that.

Speaker 2: 27:48

No, not at all, not at all. Um, all right, one of the things that you begin the book with is this ida b uh wells quote who, um, I don't know, she seems like a pretty important person.

Speaker 3: 27:59

Um, you like her, I like her a lot.

Speaker 2: 28:00

Yeah, you quote her that the white man's dollar is his God. The appeal of the white man's pocket has ever been more effectual than all the appeals ever made to his conscience.

Speaker 3: 28:11

Oh goodness, man, yeah, it's hardcore man. Why do you begin here, and that's like the second paragraph of the book.

Speaker 2: 28:18

Yeah, I mean you basically like punch us in the face. Yeah, to start the book. Yeah, you've not warmed us up to this. No, there's no warm-up.

Speaker 3: 28:27

I'm just like oh gosh it's so there's.

Speaker 2: 28:31

There's no like easing into that why why'd you begin there, right into it?

Speaker 3: 28:36

because, like, well, because one of the things I also want to frame in the book is that, like, the stakes of our, the stakes of our history and battle with race and racism, are way too high for me to play games with it. And so, like I, the way I summarize, the way I summarize the work now, is that what I, what I want to reveal to folks, is that America's history with race and racism is really just a proxy battle of a cosmic war, and that cosmic war is between god and mammon, and so, uh. So I want to hit you with that early and I don't want to let up throughout the entire, throughout the entire book. So, like they're like it's like there are some people who can, who can like, read through this, I think, relatively quickly, and then there are other people for whom it's going to take some more time because, cause I, I am just it's, I want it to be just kind of liver shot after liver shot, but but then, but then I also want there to be, I also want there to be a deep and substantive hope.

Speaker 3: 29:32

That comes out of it too, because I think about it like the way I think about now the book of revelation, where you know John is, john is writing this to churches under Roman, under Roman persecution and like, and that's really bad and scary.

Speaker 3: 29:47

And then Christ essentially reveals to him hey, actually it's even scarier than it appears, cause, yeah, like it looks like Rome's bad and all this kind of stuff, but we're actually talking about multi-headed beasts with horns and all this stuff killing the people of God, which is even scarier.

Speaker 3: 30:03

Um, but in addition to that, you've got it, you've got to be willing to, to take it up another level and realize that, and and and realize that, above all, that, above all of this, god, god and the lamb are on the, are on the throne, and, and, and we serve a god who has, who has promised to enact real, comprehensive justice in the world. Um, and we can't, you can't, go day to day in this battle against the, against the powers and principalities, and maintain hope without that vision. Um, and so I want to. I want to not only draw the picture of the world as much darker than we would prefer to, but I also want to frame the light, the light of the gospel, in a way that is much brighter than we're, than we're used to so well, you've just even like the book.

Speaker 2: 30:57

You've said so much in a short amount of time here that I'm like it's like the book, where I've got five questions based off what you just said. All right, so let's get terminology out of the way. Why the love of money is the root of racism is the subtitle here and how the church can create a new way forward. How is let's see racism, racism and race? How would you define those? I know you do do define them in the book, but how would you define? Them so.

Speaker 3: 31:29

So when I talk about race, I want to be clear that what I'm talking about is what is, what um is what adolph reed calls an, an ideology of, of, of a scriptive difference, and what these, what these kinds of categories do, what these kinds of ideologies do, and this is it, and this is a quote from reed that it that it helps to stabilize a social order by legitimizing its hierarchies of wealth, power and privilege, including its social division of labor as the natural order of things. So the purpose, the purpose of race as a category, is to do those things. And part of what, the part of what the what I do in the book is I narrate how, like that is a category that is created specifically to justify capitalist exploitation. That's where race historically come from. So race, so racism, and this is the and this is the, the, the epigraph of the first, of the first chapter, because, like I said, it's just. I just want to at the very beginning, I just want to get you into what we're going to talk about so also so.

Speaker 3: 32:30

Oliver cox, in his book cast class and race, says uh, what is what is? And he's talking about racism. What is, what is racism? It's the phenomenon of the capitalist exploitation of peoples and its complementary social attitude. That is that, that that exploiting people also also requires a system of thought that allows you to tell you that these are people that I should be able to exploit.

Speaker 2: 32:53

And that's the role, and that's essentially the role that race, that's the role that race plays so is that like if we can dehumanize someone or a group of people, it makes it more palatable. So like when you say like no, those people are, they're from trash hole countries, they're subhuman. It allows us then to treat them as subhuman.

Speaker 3: 33:20

Yep, and so I. I frame this as what I call the demonic cycle of self-interest. So it begins in our desire to exploit and dominate each other. That is just to say, I like money and I like power. Generally for me to get money and power, though, it often requires me to put somebody in a position that they don't like to be in, um, and and so that's the exploitation and domination part. But the thing about me putting somebody in that kind of position is that they don't like to be there, so they're going to try to not be in that position, and so if I'm going to keep them in that position, it's generally going to require violence. So exploitation leads to violence. That is that's required to enforce that exploitation.

Speaker 3: 33:55

But because most of us have consciences, we, we, we don't want to wake up in the morning and think I'm really excited for a day of exploiting, dominating and killing my neighbor. So we create these narratives to tell ourselves that that's not what we're doing to each other, and and those things are lies. One of those lies is the category of race. But it creates this cycle of exploitation, violence and lies, exploitation, violence and lies, exploitation, violence and lies, um. And so the argument of the book is that, like that's, that's where race is situated. The history of race and race, and especially of racial violence, is just that cycle, over and over again. And so if we're supposed to, and so if we, as the body of christ, are seeking to resist that cycle, we've got to resist each point, each point of it, and and that, and that's what leads to the three uh points of application that I narrate in the latter half of the book.

Speaker 2: 34:43

So this is I'm guessing this is going to be either enlightening for many or controversial, because when we think of race and racism, we usually just think of skin, tone, skin. We think of the. Maybe we, maybe, even maybe we'll go into our a little bit of our country's history, but we think this is where I think the, the movement that was seems like fully dead now, uh, the racial reconciliation movement was let's, let's just educate our people to say no, no, we are, we are all creating the imago day. Yep, and why is that not enough to get to the root of racism? As you say, it's the love of money.

Speaker 2: 35:25

I know, we'll get further into that. Well, because the evil.

Speaker 3: 35:28

So if the issue was ignorance, then it would be solved by education. And if the issue was hate, just in the sense of ill feeling, then it could be solved. With just us feeling differently about each other. It could be solved with just us feeling differently about each other. Similarly, also because, because, because, and and uh, especially especially recently and especially since, since the civil rights movement, the language of the systemic is, is, is, is in the, is in the water, so people can see systemic racism and the ways in which it's baked into law, and and and policy and things and things like that, and and so people can get the idea okay, well, like, if we just deal with the policies, then we'll deal with this thing. And I, I want to say that it is actually even worse than that, because, because race did not begin in policy, it began in greed. It began because there were people who wanted particular resources, wanted to be able to get them cheaply, and so they looked for really cheap sources of labor in order to do those things, and the category of race allowed them to tell themselves well, these are people who I can, who who I can exploit. Until we deal with, until we deal with that with that root we won't. We won't actually deal with that. We won't actually deal with the monster and that, and and and, to then encounter math.

Speaker 3: 36:53

Jesus in matthew 6, 24, who says that we can't serve two masters, will either love one and hate the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both god and and like the other. You cannot serve both God and and like and. Jesus could have chosen any of our many idols in that second spot. We're from reformed backgrounds. It could have been pride, because they'd like God and self or something like that. But he says God and mammon, the Aramaic word for money or riches, that, what, that, what that indicates to me, and what and what I think I. I end up playing this out of the book, but it's, it's happened in the afterlife of the book, where I've where, part of it is just me asking myself like, how, how right is jesus? Like, if I look through even the history of humanity, that's true that there's a constant, that there's this, there's this constant battle between the, between essentially the lord and just personal gain, um, and it's gain, it's the, it's the seeking of, of money, of power and of influence, all things that we can be greedy for. Um, like those are. Like that's the root.

Speaker 3: 37:56

In many ways, the root issue is that the first, the first sin people say that it's pride I think the first sin is greed. I think it's it's. It's it's adam and eve reaching out for something that is not theirs, that's not theirs to have, which is fundamentally what greed is. It's that. It's that god has told you that you need these particular things and he's provided those things for you and it's and it is, and it is your claim. Yeah, but like there's still more that I should probably have. That's what greed is and that is what I think is actually our primal issue.

Speaker 3: 38:32

But the history of race and racism is, like I said, just a proxy battle of that war. Because whether you look at slavery, whether you look at lynchingching, whether you look at convict leasing or all these things, when you ask enough questions, you find out people continue these systems because they have money that they want to make and the narratives about race and all this kind of stuff. They end up being smoke screens. They're just smoke screens because I want to make a lot of money and if I've already made that money, I want to keep that money, um, like that's in, in, in. In relatively simple terms, that's what it. That's what it essentially comes down to, basically every time.

Speaker 2: 39:09

And so is. Have you found sharing this? Yeah, People are more receptive to it, or less because of this, because I think hearing that racism is about ignorance and hate um is gross, um of what it is, yeah, and so it's nice to be able to and it's easier to deal with that way. Yeah, you put those people over there, but by making it about greed, yeah, and now it involves more of us. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:43

Because you can see your greedy tendency. As you said, it may be the, the first sin and and the root of all of these sins. As you, you talk about here. Having it touches on seven of the ten commandments, yeah, um, so have you found people more receptive to it this way of seeing it, or they've or have you felt there's like a pushback to that, because I would imagine this feels like a new way of understanding this?

Speaker 3: 40:17

Yeah, people don't really love my book in the sense that they say that they love it, in the sense that it's a really compelling picture, but it's not this really deeply enjoyable experience and I wrote it because I mean, one of the reasons why I wrote it and I should warn people that after you read it you're without excuse that's kind of one of the intentions of the book is I want to draw like I want to remind us of the world in which we actually live, but also remind us that, like this actually does require something of all of us.

Speaker 3: 40:53

And the thing about a lot of our conversations about, about race and racism is that we feel like we can get to a point where we, where we got it. Yeah, so, if ignorance is the issue, well, like okay, well, I'm continually engaging in education, so like got it, just gonna keep doing that, or, or, or, or. If it's a or, if it's a hate thing, it's like, well, I got, I got friends and networks and stuff, and so got it and my and, and, and I want us to be reminded of the fact that evil, evil is much more insidious than that.

Speaker 3: 41:25

um, and also like the powers and principalities are actively relentless so if there is ever a point at which we think that there is this massive evil that we've dealt with, that ought to, that ought to set off some alarm bells, because until Jesus comes back, satan's not going to stop. He's already been defeated and so and so he. So, so, so, so. In the, in the mindset of our spiritual enemies, they're like we got a limited amount of time, we got to do as much damage as we can, as quickly as we can, and as the people of God, we, the art, our temptation is going to be to get tired or to get complacent, and one of the risks of us framing our issues as smaller than that christ has given us, then we're going to get, then we're going to get tired because, because the, because the issues are massive, yeah, this is.

Speaker 3: 42:32

This is why, this is why king wb du bois and others, as they fought against racism for years, it's why they met up with these bouts of depression and disillusionment. Because, because the issues are so big, yeah, um, and you're gonna hit obstacle after obstacle after obstacle. You need stamina to be able to do this, um, but it's one of the reasons why I press that this is a book for the people of god, because I'm like we have, we have an endless well to draw from. We have to like, actively be drawing from that well, because you need to know that that's that you actually need it to be able to fight, to be able to fight the battle that we're actually embroiled in do you see a correlation between this way of understanding the history of race with some of the stuff?

Speaker 2: 43:15

I think you even quoted derrick bell and some of the uh critical race theory and I know that's a whole other can of understanding what that is. But you see that, as there's some connectivity there, and maybe some of the reason people don't want to see it this way, because it's a darkening view of our heart. Like I said, man, this is a really dark way of seeing the world and a dark way of seeing our history and I don't want to see that.

Speaker 2: 43:40

I want to have a more positive light of our history, especially progressives what do you mean by?

Speaker 3: 43:46

that well, I mean like there's, there's, there, you want to have the uh, you want to have the, the assumption that if you just get all the good people together, you can, you can, you can kind of usher in justice in the world. Yeah, um, or you have these kind of narratives of progress, um, and this is actually not just like, it's not just a progressive thing, like this is. This is also the way that, especially in this country, we like to narrate american history just kind of as americans. We're like our, our ideals are awesome and we and like, as time is going on, we're just living more into our ideals. This're like our, our ideals are awesome and we and like, as time is going on, we're just living more into our ideals.

Speaker 3: 44:24

This is what our most some, some of our most recent um executive orders in talking about what they want to press in k through 12 education, there's a description of a, of a patriotic education, and elements of that are that that that america has basically just been living better into its ideals over the course of its history. Like that's not just a politically progressive thing, like it's a, it's also just an american thing. You, you really want to be the hero of your own story, um and um and so, uh, but it also lies under the assumption that, okay, well, you know, we just and this is for progressives and conservatives if we just were able to get in power, we would be able to set everything right.

Speaker 2: 45:13

You made me make some other connections here. I know whenever, growing up, you hear the story of David and Goliliath and you have david, taking down goliath with the slingshot or however you describe what he he slung at goliath and growing up. The sunday school lesson was now who are your giants that you need to slay? And there was there was a uh, a christian movie that came there like uh, uh, was it uhfeating the Giants? Yeah, I remember the name, but I think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2: 45:46

Something along those lines and you guys can write in and tell us what the name of the movie was. But it's kind of that argument and I remember one for the first time, kind of hearing that story and going maybe we don't identify ourselves as David in the story, as being the little one who is on god's side and you know, there's the enemies out there like maybe we're goliath and no one ever wants to see themselves as that. As you said, like you, you, you narrate. We, we want to narrate stories where we're the heroes of the story. We do that even just like you tell us, like someone, how your day was. Well, here's what I did, and you kind of, and and this person cut me off, not that I like cut them off first or whatever. Like you narrate yourself as the hero of the story and we want that to be true in reading the scriptures and we want that to be true in our lives. There's also this, this fantastic movie um shutter island yes oh it's a great movie, leonardo dicaprio

Speaker 2: 46:38

great movie and the whole movie to it away. It's been around for a while, so if you don't skip ahead two minutes on this podcast, but the whole movie is he has created this whole world because he could not this whole lie, because he could not deal with the fact that his wife had killed his kids. And so he at one point has to make the decision like do I continue on knowing this ugly truth or do I believe the lie to be able to, like, live with myself and live with this world that I now, I'm now in?

Speaker 3: 47:14

and can I add a quick, a quick bonus, because you mentioned david and goliath and I was reminded of a detail of that story that I have, uh, largely ignored, for basically my entire knowledge of that story. Go for it. Which is why David ended up killing Goliath? Uh, because in first, because in first, samuel 17, uh, he becomes aware of what will happen to the person who kills Goliath. Do you see, now the Israelites had been saying this is, this, is this is first, samuel 17, 25. Now the Israelites had been saying do you see how the israelites had been saying this is, this is, this is first, samuel 17, 25.

Speaker 3: 47:43

Now the israelites have been saying do you see how this man keeps coming out? He comes out to defy israel. The king will give great wealth to the man who kills him. He will also give him his daughter in marriage and will exempt his family from taxes in israel. David asked the men standing near him what, what will be done for the man who kills this philistine and removes this disgrace from israel? Who is, who is this uncircumcised philistine that he should defy the armies of the living god? They, they repeated to him what they had been saying and told him this is what will be done for the man who kills him. So like money is a part of money and self-interest are a part of even david killing glenn.

Speaker 2: 48:18

Like it, like I have not fully vetted that yet, I'm going to go into it.

Speaker 3: 48:22

That's interesting, like it isn't, it, Isn't it? It's like you ask these questions. It is all throughout. It's all throughout the Bible, but it's also all throughout history. It is one of the primary things that drives human action. It just is even david and goliath.

Speaker 2: 48:41

Like I said, I don't like to think of ourselves as that, as that uh negative. It's deep man. I think the human spirit has more potential in it.

Speaker 3: 48:51

Okay yes, dark out here, uh, it's why we need the grace and mercy of the lord every single day of our lives oh, man, man, oh man. Sorry, I cut you off though.

Speaker 2: 49:09

No, I think it was the perfect analogy of this, because I want to think even better of David, because he's like the Christ figure in that one I know right.

Speaker 3: 49:15

So now I'm rethinking everything in my life. You gotta read the whole story. You gotta read the whole story. In context Context is key.

Speaker 2: 49:21

Give me something positive. Alright, throughout the history of the world, we've seen Christianity both get in bed with greed and sometimes challenge it. Can you give me an example of one of each and the ways that it's maybe challenged systems of greed or reinforced the systems of greed? Um stood against it or when it's failed to stand against it?

Speaker 3: 49:48

yeah, I mean there are a lot of. There are a lot of stories of compromise uh, jamar's got a whole book on it but like, but we have had fewer. We've had fewer examples of the church recognizing that greed is the issue and figuring out what it means to organize against it. There were, there were a number of examples in the early. There were a number of examples in the early, in the early church.

Speaker 3: 50:15

Yeah, and there are a number of figures that I draw attention to in the book who press constantly over and over again how dangerous it is. And this is I draw attention to in the book, who press constantly over and over again how dangerous it is. And this is why the first quote in the book, the epigraph at the very beginning of the book, is from John Chrysostom, and it's this quote that it's one of my favorite quotes. So I just want to say it real quick. Perhaps one of you will say every day you talk about covetousness. Would that I could speak about it every night too? Would that I could do so following you about in the marketplace and at your table? Would that both wives and friends and children and domestics and tillers of the soil and neighbors and the very pavement and walls could ever shout forth this word, for this malady hath seized upon all the world and occupies the souls of all, and great is the tyranny of mammon like that, that, that message, is something that I mean. Chris has some preached it often, basil says ria preached it often, there were others who preach it often, and, and whenever I talk to groups of christians now about the book, one of the questions I like to ask is how often do you hear preaching about greed? And there have been numerous people who cannot remember the last time they heard a sermon about greed.

Speaker 3: 51:23

That's an issue that indicates that, essentially, the demon mammon has placed a veil over like, has placed such a thick veil over our eyes that we have failed. I mean, we failed to really substantively follow Christ in the ways that he's called us to live, and one of the fundamental ways in which he's called us to live is to think about, is to think about our resources in a different way, but not just think about our resources in a different way, but actually invest in the redistribution of our resources in a particular, in a particular way. But no, no, none of us want to think that because we have, because we have bought into the assumptions of neoliberal capitalism that we are fundamentally competitive individuals, that it is perfectly okay for us to desire to get rich, even though Paul says explicitly in 1 Timothy 6 that those who desire to get rich fall into a trap and a snare, all those kinds of things. We've fallen into the trap that we can think that everything can just be commodified and everything becomes a profit center. All of those assumptions have dug so deep into our psyche that when we hear Jesus's words about, about us sharing, we're just like.

Speaker 3: 52:25

That doesn't make any sense. That's not practical. It's what jesus told us to do.

Speaker 2: 52:29

We gotta figure out how to do it now, I can hear, I can hear um, I can hear a detractor, malcolm- yes I can hear detractor yes and I can hear myself, yes, going. But wealth really isn't the problem though it's how you use the wealth. How would you, how would you respond to that?

Speaker 3: 52:54

uh, let me, let me just read from my, from my book he's gonna be using that live so much people would just read the book and they would.

Speaker 3: 53:07

They would understand, um, but okay, so this is so I I. One of the most uncomfortable texts, I think, for a lot of American Christians is Jesus's conversation with the rich young ruler. And one of the ways. And so Jesus very clearly tells this man um, get to sell all that you possess, give it to the poor, come, follow me. And starting even back with, uh, clement of Alexandria. So here I just want to read a little bit of this just as an example, like something that is much more comfortable, I think, for us to hear. This is on page 148, the bottom of page 148.

Speaker 3: 53:46

In the early third century, clement of Alexandria, one of the first well-known Christian theologians, interpreted this text, that is, the sell everything you have and give to the poor. In a way most of us are comfortable with today, jesus seems to be telling the rich young ruler to sell all his stuff, and we understand that Christ's words are not necessarily limited to this man. So we ask ourselves is he talking to me? And here's how Clement answers this question Sell all that you possess. What does this mean? It does not mean, as some superficially suppose, that he should throw away all that he owns and abandon his property. That is Clement is saying. It doesn't mean exactly what Jesus said.

Speaker 2: 54:19

Rather Come. On, clement Rather Come on.

Speaker 3: 54:21

Rather, he is to banish those attitudes toward wealth that permeate his whole life, his desires, interests and anxiety. These things become the thorns, choking the seed of a true life. There we go. End of chapter. It's not a great thing or desirable to be without any wealth, unless it is because we're seeking eternal life. If it were those who possess nothing, the destitute, the beggars seeking food and the poor living in the streets, would become the blessed and loved of god, as though jesus might say elsewhere, somewhere that blessed or the poor anyway, besides the point um, besides the point um, but all of that is um, all of that, all that's to say like. That's a much more comfortable way for us to, for us to think about it, but yeah what's wrong with that?

Speaker 3: 55:02

but, but, but, but, but, basel. But basel does. It disagrees because, because, uh, jesus was very clearly telling him, telling him to sell everything that he has. But one of the things that basel presses is that, like the problem, what this? The issue with this, the issue with this rich young man, um, was that he had too much, and that is a. And this is, and this is also the issue of the um, of the rich fool in luke 12, I believe um to, who has all these barns, and then, and, and, and he's about to tear down his barns to build bigger ones so they can hold all of his stuff. And that same night God comes to him is like, actually, your life is going to be demanded of you tonight. Doesn't look like it was the best use of your resources, was it? Um? So, um, but, but the but?

Speaker 3: 55:55

The point that Basel is making is that, look, if we are loving our neighbors as ourselves, then that also means that we are advocating for our neighbors to have what we have. So I have this paragraph. This is in, so this is page 154. According to Basel, if we're loving our neighbors as ourselves, then we should have no more than our neighbors. Said another way. If I determine that I need something, I have I should ensure that all my neighbors also have that thing. Is food a need? I must make sure my neighbor brother and sister have it. Is clothing a need? I must make sure my neighbor brother and sister have it. Premium health care, high quality housing, living wage all necessities. Premium health care, high quality housing, living wage all necessities.

Speaker 3: 56:39

Through an exegesis of Jesus' words to the young ruler, basel calls us to think more creatively than neoliberal capitalism would like us to. An economy that grows when we consume will obviously just encourage us to continue to consume. And yet we've been called to bear witness to a different kind of economy, one in which we hear Christ's words and do what he says, rather than over spiritualize them.

Speaker 3: 56:58

One of the primary issues I think with, with with these, with these conversations, especially about the rich, young ruler, is that we are really tempted to over spiritualize very material things that crisis called us to do. And so I want to remind us, just as race is not a conversation about thought, it's a conversation about material, material exploitation. Similarly, I like, I, I, I want, when I want all those spaces where we're tempted to over spiritualize stuff, I want us to, I want to be reminded that love, that is obedience to, that is obedience to christ, love is a material relation with our neighbor. Yeah, um and so, and that's going to actually shape, like that's going to shape our priorities, it's going to shape our tastes. All those, all those things happen when our material habits change.

Speaker 2: 57:47

That's good. That's good. You've mentioned this already the, the demonic cycle of self-interest. Yeah, and that's a theme that runs all throughout the book. Yeah, and you, you, and that's a theme that runs all throughout the book. Yeah, and you lay out the original example, or at least the example that pertains to race in America. Yeah, of the Portuguese who wanted to exploit some markets. Yeah. And so I've heard you say this before about when they came to Africa. They were not saying here, Didn't?

Speaker 3: 58:18

get involved because they were racist. They get involved because they had markets they had to expand.

Speaker 2: 58:21

And so they, they, they, they begin with exploitation. So it begins. It begins there, with greed as the root of the book. Here, why the love?

Speaker 2: 58:31

of money is the root of racism. So it begins in greed and then it goes to violence, and so it's exploiting them, bringing them into the transatlantic slave trade Yep. It comes to America and you have more greed, more violence taking land Yep. But then there is the lie to say we have, because we can't morally feel right sleeping at night knowing what we are doing to other human beings, and so we need to lie to ourselves and say these are not human beings, yep, um. And so then it's that, that cycle, and so it goes over and over and over again, which is a a powerful image, I think. I think, if you, you walk away from this book, that that is going to be there and you're going to see it everywhere.

Speaker 2: 59:11

I just talked to someone earlier today. They're like I'm seeing that cycle everywhere yep, um, yep. Where would you say you see that today Is there an example of a modern example of you see some violence that is being justified by a lie, but at the root of it, is greed.

Speaker 3: 59:26

Yeah Well, and I want to say that this is not a and I'm about to preach Revelation 13, this is not just a race thing. As time has gone on, I'm deeply convinced that that's just the cycle of evil. It's really interesting that the primary things that God tells his people that a king is going to do in 1 Samuel 8, the categories, are categories of exploitation and violence, like it's he's going to tax you heavily, he's going to and he's going to employ you in a war machine and he's going to tax you heavily. He's going to and he's going to employ you in a war machine. And he's going to, and he's going to and he's going to reward the people who are loyal to him. And then anybody who, anybody who steps out of line, he's going to treat them in a particular way. Like that, like that logic of exploitation, violence and propaganda is like that's, that's just necessary to, just the way that evil, just kind of the way that evil works. Um, and so I mean, you know it's, it's, it's in many ways, uh, kind of naked in in what's going on in the federal government right now, I mean under the, under the guise of, you know, under the guise of of, of efficiency and stuff like that. It's really just people lining, kind of lining their own pockets, um, and just doing so, like I said, nakedly, I mean, in the it's, it's, it's it's.

Speaker 3: 1:00:45

I think it's important that in the Trump Gaza video, like it's a, it's a statue of gold, because it's about opulence, like it's about, it's about it about accumulation. Um, it's about accumulation for the sake of, for the sake of luxury. Forget the people who who are suffering. It's one of the reasons why even the, the tax plan looks that looks, looks the way that it does. It's because it's, it's, it's how can I accumulate more and more for myself, um, and that is that's what our that's like said, that's what our economy feeds. We are constantly, even just on social media, whether it's Instagram or whatever. It doesn't take me long to scroll to see somebody telling me how I can make more money, and it gets millions of views, because that's what people want. People want to make more money, more money.

Speaker 3: 1:01:38

And I just I want the people of God to think about what it might look like to have a community of people where there is no desire to get rich, where there literally is a. I'm gonna seek the kingdom of god and his righteousness. The lord will provide for me what I need and any and and and. If the lord sees fit to bless me with more than I need, then I'm going to think creatively about ways that I can extend that access to the people who do have need, like that's what, that's what the people of God are supposed to be marked by. I don't want any Christian to desire to get rich. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:02:13

Cause that's what Paul says and like, and that is that is apparently profoundly counter. Countercultural. Because we have we, because we've built up all these edifices of like reasons why I can, I can feed my own desire to get rich. I want to get rich so that I can help more people. You're no, you don't. That's not the fundamental reason why you want to get rich.

Speaker 3: 1:02:32

You want to get rich just because you want to get rich and you and, and get rich just and you, and, and. And. We like to think that if we had an abundance of resources, that we would use it, that we would use it to help people, but that's exactly what mammon wants us to think. Mammon wants us deeper and deeper into its clutches, um, because it can blind us to the ways in which uh, it it, it can blind us to the ways that our, even, even our accumulation comes at other people's expense. So, as one, as one very short example, I want to talk about folks who want to get rich off of real estate, which is something that also Isaiah speaks against explicitly, and I got a line in the book where I slide that in, and there are some people who noticed it. They're like, oh, wasn't expected that, but yeah, it's in there, but give it to every realtor, yeah, but to? But to think about like housing is not. Housing is not just a profit center just for you to just enrich yourself. Housing is something that people need to actually live.

Speaker 3: 1:03:35

When I, when I, when I narrate kind of the three points of resistance to this cycle, that we're communities committed to deep economic solidarity, creative anti-violence and prophetic truth-telling. With the economic solidarity point, one of the things I want to press is that churches ought to be invested in the elimination of hunger and housing issues in their, in their midst. Like those are two very I mean, they're not easy but they're very practical, practical investments for each of our communities to make, because those are things that people need and we ought to be seeking to meet the needs, the material needs of our, of our, of our brothers and sisters Like that's that's what love actually looks like of our, of our, of our brothers and sisters. Like that's that's what love actually looks like. So, even as we think about evangelism, like part of it is like we, like we've got to actually love. We got to actually love people, um, and part of loving them is is seeking that they have the things that they need to be able to survive.

Speaker 3: 1:04:32

Going back um to probably kind of answered your question. Part of it was no, that's good, that's good.

Speaker 2: 1:04:37

That was real wondering where that cycle is being seen and I think that's that's an obvious example Going back to the violence arm of this, and so you have. You have the greed, and then you have violence in our country's history. This is where you got your did your dissertation on the violence and specifically around lynchings.

Speaker 2: 1:04:59

And you you go through and explain a few of these here. Um, the waco horror, uh, the story of jesse washington you you narrate. Um, if you've never read that, go check out the waco horror, um, and you'll get it there, or buy his book and he narrates in there it narrates it here as well and it's just horrifying examples.

Speaker 2: 1:05:22

And I remember when you were going through your dissertation going like dude, how are you staying hopeful in the midst of this? And you're like that's not my question right here. But also I had not, until reading your book, hearing the own personal element that you put in here with your great-great-grandfather own personal uh element that you put in here uh, with your great great grandfather.

Speaker 2: 1:05:41

Oh, yeah, yeah Um and just hearing that and kind of the reason to, to, to move out of the South, um, but you, you, you say in here, um, that lynching ended on page 53. Lynching ended because it became bad for business.

Speaker 2: 1:05:56

Yep, and you know it's lines like this that just are so like jolting, because you're just like, gosh, I don't want that to be true. I don't want that to be true. But if it is, how then do we persuade people against violence if it's not bad for business? Like, do we try to appeal to their self-interest and greed because we're like, hey, that's all they care about, so because that's what's going to do it. It was, it was bad for business, so that ended lynching. So when we see violence, how then do we try to to push against it? Is it to appeal to their self-interest and greed?

Speaker 3: 1:06:37

or is there something more well, so, and that and that's the other thing like that can be effective, um, like, if the goal is fire with fire yeah, but that's, but that's exactly, that's.

Speaker 3: 1:06:48

That's exactly what it is. So this is why my favorite, my favorite text on non-violence is the is is the is the um quote that I put at the epigraph of chapter six, which is that um. It's from Antonio Gonzalez and he says Christian nonviolence is not based on an ethic of respect for life or on the tactical superiority of nonviolence, but on the determination to confront evil at its very root. So I'm not nonviolent just because I think that everybody should live. I'm also not nonviolent because nonviolence works. I'm non-violent because I want to confront, because, because, because I see where evil actually is and I want to aim at that.

Speaker 3: 1:07:28

That is a different way of approaching these things, because it is also a way that does not care as much about general effectiveness. Basically, it cares more about my brother or sister is like. My brother, sister or neighbor is suffering. I want to seek to end their suffering, and what that's probably going to require of me is me walking alongside them. It also means that whenever we have the pleasure of some kind of political victory on behalf of the poor and the needy, we have to understand that they are fleeting and temporary.

Speaker 3: 1:08:10

I think about just what's happened over the like in a month. When we think about what this administration has done in a month, it's reminded people how fragile these systems are. Like, yes, people are fighting. Like, yes, people are fighting back, and stuff like that but but. But. But there has been a there's a lot of fear in the system and people who have lost their livelihoods and all that stuff, like real people, have been deeply affected. And it hasn't taken that much time because, because, because the other thing and Lysa, this is a progressive issue like people can get comfortable in I mean, just people get comfortable in their luxuries where you think, well, look, we did all of this, we did all this fighting for these rights. Now we got them, now we can just move on. I was like you need to understand, the powers and principalities are not going to stop. So it's why it's why we do that I want the people of god to continually be vigilant because, like I said, they're not.

Speaker 2: 1:09:11

They're not gonna stop because we're fighting demons, we're fighting man, and for we need what weapon? Malcolm.

Speaker 3: 1:09:19

We need the Holy Spirit, we need to be reminded every single day, every single day, I want a weapon.

Speaker 3: 1:09:26

I know, I know we need to be reminded every single day that everything that we enjoy, everything is a gift of the grace of God and that we need the grace and mercy of our savior to make it through every single day of our lives. And like, we just get to the point where we look at the stuff that we have and we're like I'm good, I got, like I look, look at what I've done for myself Great, I'm going right on that. Every day is a day of deep dependence on the lord, and that and the and one of the and one of the primary reasons why we don't believe that is because of our economy. Yeah, it's because our economy tells us I'm in this position because I worked for it and I earned it and this, and, and and. Essentially because, like, theologically, protestants should have an issue with that.

Speaker 3: 1:10:19

But there's been this, like I said, this disjunction between the theological and the material, or, in this case, theology and economy, when one of the primary ways that our theology ought to play itself out is in our economics and the way that we think about our actual material resources, but, but, but, but, but. What mammon has effectively done for many of us has severed that connection um, and I want to re, I want to reconnect, I want to reconnect to those things in this book one thing that you uh example, you you bring in and uh for a whole chapter um and is lessons of despair and from one uh one particular person, francis grimke yeah who um from our past life, is um being championed and as the the black presbyterian oh yeah um, and recently there's a the grimke seminary um, and so there's a lot, and he's, in your research, a ton um, and so there's a lot to to love about him.

Speaker 2: 1:11:26

But you, you describe him as a cautionary tale um in resisting racial violence. Why?

Speaker 3: 1:11:31

do you why? You describe it that way interesting how some white christians view some prominent black christians in particular stages of their lives. So I think people love grimke at a particular age, but not where he is, but not where he ends up when he dies. Similarly, martin l Luther.

Speaker 2: 1:11:58

King, I was going to say MLK, similarly Martin Luther King.

Speaker 3: 1:12:01

you love like 1963, martin Luther King, but don't listen to 1967, 1968, martin Luther King.

Speaker 2: 1:12:06

Or even just portions from his, or even just portions Right, or even just pieces of it.

Speaker 3: 1:12:10

Right, so so. So for Grimke, there's a period in his life where, in his lynching resistance, he says that education is the way to stop it. But that's in 1899. In 1906, after the Atlanta race riots, he says that the only way to stop a mob is to shoot it to death or to dynamite it. He basically comes to the conclusion the only way that lynching is going to stop is if some of these white folks die. Basically, yeah, um, and that's. But that's also where he ends his life. Is that he's like?

Speaker 2: 1:12:46

the only way this ends is if black people defend, if black people defend themselves and and to give you, I mean in in your chapter you go into like his progression yeah, and so you can see and also just you put the dates of the different lynchings.

Speaker 3: 1:13:01

So he is now experiencing this yeah. And so you can understand why he gets there. I get it, I get it. It wears you down. It wears you down it was so powerful?

Speaker 2: 1:13:11

Because I've heard you say this is where he ends. Yeah, but to read the lynchings that are right prior to that, you're going like yeah, I mean yeah, you're trying to lead your church and go like here's how we do it, protect yourself yeah it makes a lot of sense it makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 3: 1:13:32

I was named after Malcolm X. Like I said, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, but what Jesus calls us to is actually harder than that. Sometimes Jesus calls us to is actually harder than that. Sometimes Jesus calls us to do hard stuff. He gives us the resources to do them, but they're still hard stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:13:47

And that's kind of like what I think was the beautiful line you had at the end of your you know.

Speaker 2: 1:13:52

So, as he now Malcolm's, already said it, he's got, you know, the cycle of self-interest. Already said it, he's got the cycle of self-interest. And so one of the things that I know everyone seems to, and I agree, love about his book, malcolm's book here is he does diagnose the problem, but he gives ways forward. So the second half of the book is how the church can create a new way forward. And so he has the cycle of self-interest. And so then the response to each of these is so, if, if one is going to be, um, greed, let's, let's, let's follow that with, uh, economic solidarity. If one is going to be violence, let's follow that with anti-violence. If one is going to be lies, let's follow that with truth-telling. Um, and you know we can talk about the economic solidarity part part here, um, you know, when I first heard that of going like, okay, so if it is all about greed, and so then the answer should be generosity.

Speaker 2: 1:14:44

But you say economic solidarity and real quickly. Why that word instead of generosity?

Speaker 3: 1:14:50

Generosity can very easily turn into paternalism, where I can remain in position of giver, you're in the position of receiver. We can, we can go on with our lives, especially now, when you think about, when you think about philanthropy in the sense that a lot of people think about it, it's something that can also lead to significant I mean, most of our, most of our philanthropy is like tax deductible, so like I could, so like there's, like there's also a significant kind of benefit that I gain from from that. But also, you know, I can even I can even gain significant power in particular organizations because of how much money I give, so like. So all of that quote unquote generosity can also be done in self-interest, um there are.

Speaker 3: 1:15:34

There are greedy, there are greedy, generous people Stop. And so there's that. But I press solidarity because the image is of the incarnation, where Christ, who has all things, chose to become one of us in order to bring us up to where he is. Where he is, there are ways in which I, as a millionaire or billionaire, can give in such a way that also makes sure that other people don't become millionaires and billionaires like me, and the whole purpose of Christ giving up what he gave up was so that he might be able to share it with us.

Speaker 3: 1:16:13

This was one of the themes of one of my most recent sermons on Revelation 3, when Jesus says, at the end of Revelation 3 and revelation 3, 21, that to the one who overcomes, I will give to them to sit with me on my throne, just as when I overcame, I sat with my father on on his throne, which is to say that christ desires. When I say that christ desires to share everything with us, I extend that christ extends that even to the eschatological throne on which he and the father sit. That's insane. That's insane. So to act so, then, to apply that insanity, why do we, why do we cling so tightly to this to these little things that we have that we refuse to share, when we, when we claim to serve a God who shares everything that he has with us. There are two things that we don't know. There are are things and this is another thing that I'm now saying more often there are two things that we really don't want to do, that are also really difficult things for children to do.

Speaker 3: 1:17:07

We don't want to share, we don't want to wait we want it all, and we want it now, and we and that, and, and two of the primary things that christ, that christ constantly tells us to do, is to share and to wait so, um, I'm gonna follow in the footsteps of jim jones and get our church to share everything.

Speaker 2: 1:17:28

Oh, boy um, is that what you're calling us to?

Speaker 3: 1:17:31

yeah um.

Speaker 2: 1:17:32

I'm joking, we don't go around. No, no, malcolm's reminding me we got five, we got five minutes a hard here, but no, so it's economic solidarity, it is the sharing. I want to ask you this. I'll ask you this another time, but with the potential cuts to Medicaid coming, I can be brief.

Speaker 1: 1:17:52

I've heard people go it's fine, Cut the Medicaid because it's the church's job to take care of the poor, which is what you're arguing, righticaid, because it's the church's job to take care of the poor, which is what you're arguing right here.

Speaker 2: 1:18:00

Yeah, it is the church's job to take care. It is economic solidarity. So why is that a bad thing if if we cut it nationally?

Speaker 3: 1:18:07

yeah, well, it is also is the church's job, but it's also the government's job too. Um, and and and it's if like, okay, like you, you can say that I would say that too. That also means it's going to become much harder for churches. Now, yeah, um, because what's going to happen if these, if these policies go through the? The gap between the rich and the poor is going to get much, much wider. Yeah, and so, and so the and and so and so then the question is going to be asked of your churches Are you going to be a church of the poor or are you going to be a church of the rich?

Speaker 3: 1:18:45

Because and there is a God has his favor on one of those churches. So now people are going to, people are really going to have to put their money, put their money where their mouth is. So now people are going to, people are really going to have to put their money, put their money where their mouth is, it is. Are you just going to invest in your own, in your own accumulation? Because there are ways in which, for some, accumulation is going to get even easier. For others, their suffering is going to get even more dire. And so the question, so the quest, the pastoral question is going to be where are you going to focus your attention? And in these next few years there's going to be a lot, there's going to be a lot of suffering. The question is going to be on whose side is the church going to be found?

Speaker 2: 1:19:32

Yeah, and so we have answer is economic solidarity. And then to violence, it's to to a commitment to anti-violence. And you trace the story of James Cone and kind of going through all of this and I love on page 138, you end the chapter saying whereas he resisted King's commitment to nonviolence decades beforehand, cone came to recognize Christ's forgiveness as spiritual resistance, a revolt against hatred and a refusal to allow the hater to make you like him. He saw that nonviolence was love, the most powerful way to resist the violent white supremacy. In seeing Christ more clearly, cone began to see the possibilities of a beloved community in which exploitation and violence are no more because the people of God love as Christ has called them to love, regardless of racial identity. It was ultimately the cross that drilled nonviolence or anti-violence into Cone's soul in the final year of his life. It's only the cross that will do the same in each and every one of us.

Speaker 2: 1:20:29

Ooh, I mean, that's pretty good. You might want to be a preacher, I know. Occasionally I sometimes read back and I'm like, oh, that was pretty good. And so this is where it's like you're describing something so dark, you're describing something so heinous, and then you're asking us something so hard and yet you're going. But here are the resources to do it.

Speaker 2: 1:20:56

And so to economic solidarity, to anti-violence, which I encourage you to read this chapter. We might have to do a whole another episode back on these solutions. And then it's to truth telling and you talk about all of the ways to counter the lies of the enemy and all of the things that we keep being told about race and racism and about our world, and then you end with the beautiful chapter of this creative kingdom and I, malcolm, I commend you like this is this book? I don't say, I said the very beginning, like this is your heart coming out? Here it is. Um, I'll give you the last word if someone wants to, to start making changes in their life, um, to be anti-greed yeah uh to, regarding wealth and, you know know, economic salary.

Speaker 2: 1:21:41

I mean, just apply those things, or what would you? What would you tell them, maybe like a first step they should take?

Speaker 3: 1:21:45

Two very easy first steps. Very easy quote unquote. They're easy in the sense that they're simple. One one is to learn to ask for help and two is to learn to share, because when we learn to ask for help, what we do learn to share. Because when we learn to ask for help, what we do is we give our brothers and sisters opportunities to love us and um, and so whenever people ask for a kind of like what do I? Kind of what, what's the what's, what's my next step?

Speaker 3: 1:22:11

I was like basically, learn to ask for help, build a community of people who are willing to ask for help and also build a community that recognizes that Christ has called us together to walk alongside one another. So we got to learn to share, we got to learn to think about all the resources that God has given us as meant to be shared, because one of the most significant witnesses of the church is supposed to be its economic witness when we show the world what communities of sharing can look like. And it might be a common purse, but it takes for some communities, especially now. It would take a while to get to that point. You've got to figure out for your community kind of what it looks like to implement those principles.

Speaker 3: 1:22:56

But, Christ has given us those principles pretty clearly looks like to implement those principles. But Christ has given us those principles pretty clearly.

Speaker 2: 1:23:01

Well, brother, it is such a good book If you have not yet grabbed it go grab the Anti-Gree Gospel.

Speaker 3: 1:23:12

Try to not buy it from Amazon. Yeah, you can go to bookshoporg. You'll be able to support your local bookstores.

Speaker 2: 1:23:16

It is so good. As we said, try to get a couple of these and I hope in future episodes we need to probably unpack some more of the ways of implementing some of this. Oh yeah, but as always, you know, this guest, this particular one, we'll have on more and so you'll get to hear more about this and other conversations. So if you have questions for Malcolm or questions about this, you can email hello at theologypiecescom. You can hit that ask us button there. Oh man, Malcolm, so so good.

Speaker 3: 1:23:45

Glad to be of service.

Speaker 2: 1:23:46

And you know anything, people, they know where to find you on.

Speaker 3: 1:23:50

Twitter, you all know.

Speaker 2: 1:23:52

They know where to find you.

Speaker 3: 1:23:53

You all know.

Speaker 2: 1:23:53

But you might at some point have a new website as well.

Speaker 3: 1:23:56

I do. It's true. A buddy of mine is setting up a is helping me set up a, set up a website. So anti greed gospelcom will soon be mine.

Speaker 2: 1:24:04

That's pretty awesome. Ah well, hey, if you have enjoyed this episode, best way to support this work is by giving a rating review. If you found any of it helpful, would you give us five stars, and, and? Would you share this episode with somebody? Encourage others to listen to this, but, more importantly, grab this book and start thinking through these big, big topics, y'all. We are hoping to do this on a more regular basis than once every three months, and so we will see you soon. We will see you very soon, all right. Bye y'all, Thank you.