Speaker 2: 0:17

what's up, y'all? That almost sounded like a country.

Speaker 1: 0:22

Yeah, that's that's exactly where that sounded like it was going.

Speaker 2: 0:26

I'm just I'm loving this music, man. We should just Get that wah wah pedal going A little rage.

Speaker 1: 0:36

I mean so glad you enjoy it Slim.

Speaker 2: 0:38

What is more appropriate than rage against the machine Malcolm? I think that's. What we need in our life Is a little rage Against the machine Malcolm. I think that's what we need in our life is a little rage, more rage against the machine, against the machine. Hey, dear listener, welcome to another episode of Theology in Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world or somebody has shattered to pieces and we are your hosts, malcolm and.

Speaker 1: 1:00

I'm Malcolm, you're Slim. I was going to speak for you. Oh, I mean, that's fine. I'm Malcolm, you're Slim. I was going to speak for you.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Oh, I mean, that's fine, I'm Malcolm, he's Slim. Yay, oh gosh. And today we're going to talk about are you on Team Lamb or Team Dragon? Dun, dun, dun, yeah. So we're going to have a fun, fun episode, doing some review of a book that is near and dear to our hearts. The Book of Revelation.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Oh, such a great book, so good.

Speaker 2: 1:27

It's so good, We'll get there. We'll get there, Um, but if you uh, if you've been listening for a while and you have uh yet to write in a question or to uh write in a review, please do so. Hit that, Send us a question button. We'd love to be making sure we are talking on the things you care about and, as we always say, those ratings and reviews, they do help others hear of it, and so you know it's free, it's easy, you can subscribe and you can hit a review. That's just a really nice thing to do. So thank you for all those who are listening all 10 of you and we really appreciate it, Malcolm.

Speaker 1: 2:03

Yes, sir.

Speaker 2: 2:04

What is bringing you joy these days?

Speaker 1: 2:08

For the last month it has brought me joy seeing people read my book. So also, if you're listening and you haven't bought the book yet the Anti-Greed Gospel, why the Love of Money is the Root of Racism and how the Church Can Create a New Way Forward, pick it up, tell your friends, tell your church way forward. Pick it up, tell your friends, tell your church, do a church-wide, do a church-wide book, study on it. Figure out what it looks like for you to become, for you to become an anti-green community. All those things are really, really important it's almost as refreshing as open up a nice can of seltzer water.

Speaker 2: 2:44

So this is bringing you joy. Is there, uh? Has there been uh a one review or other that you feel like has stood out, stud, out, stud yes, stood, stood, yes, studded out, uh, three of them that I can think of three.

Speaker 1: 3:01

Uh, so one is this guy, uh, who's at a campus ministry at princeton, and he emailed me and told me that, uh, this is the book that he thinks basel the great would have written if he were still alive, which is which is wild to say uh, wild to say also you know, warms my soul, love it also.

Speaker 1: 3:22

Uh, so I was at, I was at lunch with with my parents and and some other family members and we were in. We were in this conversation and my mom and well, and and they were talking about lawyers being overworked and and my mom and my mom said, well, yeah, that's the way that capitalism encourages you to, encourages you to function. And my dad said never in the 50 years that he has known this woman has she ever mentioned capitalism in casual conversation. And she said it was entirely because of my book. And and I'm like that is I.

Speaker 1: 3:52

I nobody else needs to read this book, but also, please do buy the book but, but this is uh, but I was like that's that, I'm, I'm, that's really exciting to me, um, but then I just got a review yesterday where somebody recognized that one of the things that I'm trying to do is bring essentially some of the base assumptions of the black radical tradition to a church context and doing it in an accessible way.

Speaker 1: 4:18

And this reviewer said, basically, they didn't know that that was possible, but that I did, but that I did it in this, in this book, and that was actually one of the goals that when you encounter the account of race that I, that I have in this book, it is, it is most likely going to be different from all of the all of the popular constructions of race that you've probably read. Um, and that's and that's because there's this conversation that's been going on in academic circles that has largely remained confined to those circles, and one of the reasons I want to bring it to churches is because it is more accurate and it also equips us to really resist the evils that we're facing in a better way.

Speaker 2: 4:59

So, anyway, so yeah, that's good, that's good. What was that? So, yeah, that's good, that's good. Man, y'all I don't feel. I realize that like we, we have a such a uh organic, uh familial, uh friendly relationship here. But we are, we we have the doctor, uh yeah, yeah yeah, the doctor produces some good stuff. And I think these reviews are evidencing that and confirming that.

Speaker 1: 5:31

And so I'm waiting for the, I'm waiting for the hate, I'm waiting for the hate storm, so, but right now everything on Amazon and and Goodreads and stuff is all like effusive praise, basically.

Speaker 2: 5:44

So love it. That's great. Maybe I'll maybe take one of your tweets and tag woke preacher clip please, please, come come more people to get the book to get the book. Hate buys are still buys we might have some hate listeners uh. Hey, hate listeners are still listeners, uh wonderful, wonderful, um what has brought me joy these last couple months.

Speaker 2: 6:14

Um all right, so long story uh oh boy short oh boy, not long roundabout way of saying what currently oh boy so, uh, at a few months, in a month, uh, the last of us season two, is coming out, yes, which I'm super excited. Yes, um and uh, after watching last of us one, I was like, huh, this is a good show, let me play the game.

Speaker 2: 6:36

I should play this game, yeah and so I've played the last of us game and it's amazing it may be my favorite game of all time, it's so good, it is a fantastic game and it is it's, you know, end of the world zombie apocalypse, but it's unique in that it almost sounds like this could be how it happens type thing, because it's like fungus and there's like this, like real fungus that does attach itself to like ants, and the fungus now controls the ants, and so what would happen if that happened to humans is kind of the underlying thing. But I've played this game now three times, which it's like an 80 hour game. That's great.

Speaker 1: 7:18

And I love it so much.

Speaker 2: 7:20

That's not even yet where I'm saying where the joy is coming from. That alone is great joy, but while playing it, I'm like man. I really want a bow and arrow. One of the weapons you have is a bow and arrow and I was, like you know, because I'm moved on this. I'm a nonviolent in my ethic, though I love playing zombie games, shooting zombies we do, man we do.

Speaker 2: 7:45

But I don't want to be lethal, so we'll get a bow and arrow. I talked to Kristen and we're watching Walking Dead and she's like if you have to get a bow and arrow, get a crossbow. It's still lethal, but anyway.

Speaker 1: 7:57

It's not like.

Speaker 2: 7:58

I just got permission so I went and got a crossbow.

Speaker 1: 8:09

No, you did not mishear that listener slim went out and got a crossbow so now he owns a crossbow, so I'm testing it out, and one.

Speaker 2: 8:14

These things are hard to cock back. I was just a lot of force behind them I had like a, a suction cup, one in in in high school, thinking like something similar no, no man so. I'll put your back into it. It's making me wonder whether this is the less lethal. Nope, cause I'm like, oh, I don't know. Cause I was like, yeah, maybe we'll get something that's not lethal. Anti death.

Speaker 1: 8:41

And so let's just.

Speaker 2: 8:43

But now it's like I feel like if I shoot him in the toe, it'll be okay, Also because it's so hard to cock these things like, let's say, an intruder comes in the house.

Speaker 1: 8:54

Give me like five minutes.

Speaker 2: 8:56

It's going to take a second. If you want to take the stuff downstairs, I'll be down with you. Yeah, so that's been fun. Um, and then training my, my boys to use to shoot it and knocks, shot through the feds into, uh, another building we're gonna have to talk about this look, man, if you were to face charges.

Speaker 1: 9:23

You've just admitted to it.

Speaker 2: 9:25

Nope, nope, that never happened. Moving on All right. Speaking of hard-hitting news. We're not doing terrible tweets right now. We're doing some hard hitting news. Uh, malcolm, did you know oh, this, this is gonna, this is gonna rock your world? Okay that a cheeto shaped like the beloved pokemon charizard is now gonna be auctioned for eighty seven thousand dollars? Wow, you want to see what this thing looks like $87,000.

Speaker 1: 10:06

Look at that?

Speaker 2: 10:07

That does look like Charizard.

Speaker 1: 10:08

That is a Charizard Cheeto. That is definitely a Charizard Cheeto, though that's yep.

Speaker 2: 10:15

It is a three-inch long, flaming hot Cheeto. Good gracious In the shape of the Pokemon Charizard, would you? Let's say, your book continues to blow up and you are now rolling in the money because of your anti-greed gospel book this is the goal. This is the goal, yeah would you spend eighty seven thousand dollars on a charizard cheeto?

Speaker 1: 10:38

uh, absolutely not. Um, there's maybe something else that I would spend eighty87,000 on, and then after that I can redistribute the rest of the says every person succumbing to greed. Only when I get to this stage of life, I have to make. I just have to make one luxury purchase and then with the rest it'll be.

Speaker 2: 11:06

I saw that and and I was like that's absurd. But it is absurd did you ever, did you ever have a, an item that you had as a kid, that you're like, hey, one day this unique thing is going to sell for so much. I just got to hold on to it until no, I didn't do any like collectibles type thing.

Speaker 1: 11:22

Even I was into Yu-Gi-Oh cards for a little bit. I'm trying to remember if I ever did any serious deck building or anything like that. I don't think I ever really got into it. Collectibles in general have never really been a thing for me.

Speaker 2: 11:41

I got really into it growing up with baseball cards. I had signed Nolan Ryan cards and things like this that I was like he's gonna be worth so much money, yeah, um, and then, like high school hit and I was like but I really want some to buy something with that money and so I sold it and I was really disappointed with how much money. It was worth like I thought I'd be getting like eighty seven thousand dollars and it was like here's thirty dollars I was like that's good enough.

Speaker 2: 12:13

But what was really funny is my my grandmother would take uh me and my brother's uh garage sale shop shopping uh as kids on saturdays and it was almost like every other saturday or something like that, and she would just be like let's go find the deal, you know, let's go find the deals there, there, there. There's all these hidden gems, if you can just find them, and it's like some toy bins and it's like you know the, the, the Burger King toys or McDonald toys. Yeah, and she's, you gotta hang on to those. Those are gonna be worth so much money one day. And so we had, we, we held on to so many useless pieces of plastic crap forever going. It's gonna be worth. And then you like, go look like on amazon, it's like 30 cents essentially trash.

Speaker 1: 12:56

Why did?

Speaker 2: 12:56

that. Why was I convinced? And we come back and she's like you guys did pretty good that. That was the way she always said it. Y'all did pretty good. Sorry, going down really unhelpful territory for the rest of the human race here, that's awesome, but now let's have a little time for.

Speaker 1: 13:16

Terrible Tweets Dun dun dun.

Speaker 2: 13:20

This is from Matthew Sorens. He says he's quoting from an article from Christianity Today. And it's quoting from an article from Christianity Today and it's quoting where he says Currently, with the stoppage of both the asylum process and the refugee resettlement program, christians no longer have the option of a safe place in the United States A harsh truth that too few Christians seem to realize. Grateful to Ryan Brown, brown and open doors for speaking out. And so matthew sorens, who we've had on the podcast to talk about christianity and immigration, to think through those things, and he's given his seems like he's given his life to helping the church better understand and care about this was commenting on what is now the state of America to where, it seemed we used to say let's love our neighbor regardless of who they are, but we do want.

Speaker 2: 14:20

If someone was to come into our country and they were seeking asylum, they were seeking refugees from, you know, from oppressive government. We're saying, yes, that's a good, right thing. They're going through the immigration process the way we want them to, to where now we've just stopped it altogether, to where no one is even wanting to come to the United States because, mission accomplished, we've closed it all down because that's the right and good thing to do, and you could say, no, that you're getting political slim and and malcolm and matthew, um, like just, we are not being republican or democrat or partisan. Like, what does the bible say? What does the bible Bible tell us, as Christians, we should care most about? You can think all throughout the Old Testament the care for the foreigner, the alien, as some translations say it.

Speaker 2: 15:15

Deuteronomy 10,. God executes justice for the fatherless and the widow and loves the sojourner. This is an immigrant, giving them food and clothing, and we're saying you can't even, we're not gonna give you food and clothing, we're not even let you even approach us. And so it's. We are now in this spot as a world where people are going not welcome, not welcome, and this is the country that's built on immigrants yep.

Speaker 2: 15:44

Well, specifically, uh built on the labor of immigrants on the continual exploitation of them uh, but you know yes, but, but, but yes good, good, good, good qualification but the oh golly, it's so discouraging.

Speaker 1: 16:02

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 16:03

So, discouraging.

Speaker 1: 16:04

Well, look, man, and as we'll talk about in the book of Revelation, it's only discouraging if you expect something different of the state and the way that America's narratives about itself as land of the free and all this kind of stuff you know, when you buy into that, when American history constantly gives you example after example of the contrary. So this is even. You know. A number of members of the civil rights movement are looked fondly back on. I think of, like I mean, a number of significant African-American figures I think about Martin Luther King is one of them where they're remembered, as you know, calling, calling america back to its ideals and people that they, they're the ones who really love.

Speaker 1: 16:51

This is a note, yeah and I mean james, james baldwin, saying that he it's because he loves this country so much that he that he critiques it and all that like and all this kind of stuff. But like it, it america has has never actually lived up to its ideals. Every time it is constantly made these claims about freedom and equality and all this stuff. But you dig below the surface and they're in there and there's always been this, this very, very strong undercurrent of domination and exploitation and, like, it's just, it's so interesting to be in a state that purports that, purports to be a certain way, but has in many ways always functioned in the way that the scriptures say that states always function.

Speaker 1: 17:40

Um, it's just that for us, we're, we're really, really willing to fall into the delusion of, well, no, like we're actually better than everybody else, um, and there's never anything that we ever have to repent of or things that we've ever done wrong or anything. Why would we? We're the best? Uh, that's kind of our motto. Uh, america, we're the best, um, and we don't need anybody else, uh, and that, and that is now beginning to shape our foreign policy and economic policy and all that kind of stuff, and people are going to see, people are now finding out kind of what that actually means.

Speaker 2: 18:16

I'm going to pin this. I want to go back to this because I think, as you said, Revelation is going to touch on some of these things and the question of as you narrate this, I want to come back to the answer to this of can we be patriotic? Can we be nationalist? Can that also coincide with the new heart that Christ has given us? But, let's come back to that. Another tweet.

Speaker 1: 18:43

This one's from Brian Fickert, who fantastic writer the friend of the pod, we'll say friend of the pod.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Many of y'all have read him before with his one of his books, when helping hurts. Um and uh, many churches I know um love that book and would would recommend that book. And then they might hear this tweet and go like, oh not sure how I feel about that, and he is responding. I'll read the tweet he's responding to first. This is from Kerry Sheffield saying POTUS Trump and Mark Rubio ended 83% of USAID programs because, like US welfare, foreign aid often harms more than it helps. It fuels corruption, keeps nations dependent and spreads woke ideology. Private investment is better, so is a better solution to poverty. And and brian flickert, the author of when helping hurts, says, the current actions of doge, the usaID, are not consistent with the principles in the book when Helping Hurts. Doge's approach is causing unnecessary suffering for some of the poorest people on the planet, which is simply unconscionable.

Speaker 1: 19:54

Yep.

Speaker 2: 19:57

And I'm thankful he's speaking up and he is consistently speaking up about this as one who is given his life to care for the most vulnerable, and his book when helping hurts he's another book that we've used for deacon training, that one as well as the King's economy practicing the King's economy which is fantastic, so so good.

Speaker 2: 20:19

But for him to speak up and say, like this is not when helping hurts, that actually helping people who are the most, they're being most harmed right now, um, or people who are on the most suffering, and pulling funding from them that is less than a one percent of our national budget like this is the simplest and best investment we can make, and we are saying, no, let's not do that so that we can save money. Because, malcolm, did you hear how much we're going to save with this new budget that was just approved?

Speaker 2: 20:51

because we're saving so much, uh, or spending more I was told doge was going to save us money that's what I was told too and it's clear. Doge is saving us money um doge is costing us. I think we're going from uh 36 trillion dollars in debt to 40 trillion dollars in debt. So that that wait, wait wait, it's not saving money. It's reshaping the government and giving more to the rich.

Speaker 1: 21:25

It seems to be going in the direction that we were Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that when we put rich people in charge, that they use that power to?

Speaker 2: 21:40

get richer. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, so that doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1: 21:46

Why would somebody who's already rich want want to get richer? Exactly exactly that doesn't that would. That doesn't make any sense. Joe rogan has told everyone and we all would.

Speaker 2: 21:56

Would follow him and to to off of a cliff. Um that that elon musk would never, would never abuse his power in government. He already is the richest man in the world. So we're good Speaking of good.

Speaker 1: 22:15

Alright, dear listener, there's nothing to worry about.

Speaker 2: 22:19

Oh, is this not coming through?

Speaker 1: 22:20

No, it's not coming through oh boo.

Speaker 2: 22:25

Get it together slow did you guys hear this? Oh, I'm I'm terrible.

Speaker 2: 22:35

All right, you know the, the, the very infamous uh meeting at the white house between zelensky and trump, right oh, yeah, yeah you know the, the very famous uh zelensky uh, coming to the white house to ask for help against a foreign uh country invading their country. Yes, murdering, killing, engaging in war? Yes, right, this event at the white house weirdly is public, is weirdly filmed. Yes, this let's have diplomatic negotiations for the whole world to see. Yeah, and and and trump is scolding him.

Speaker 2: 23:10

Uh zelensky uh, for one, wearing what he's wearing, which is what people wear in wartime, um, and like churchill and others who wear what they wear in wartime, um, so he's, he's doing that, um, he is saying he is, he is gambling with people's lives and he's gambling with world war three. And in the middle of it you got jdance who says have you even said thank you once? And so frustrating to watch this, just like I cannot believe this is happening. It's so disgusting, so embarrassing for us as a country to have this be our representatives. And I remember watching that and going like no, no way. And then just uh, the other night we're watching uh, the walking dead and uh, negan uh, yeah the clearly the bad guy.

Speaker 2: 24:03

Yeah, gets rick, the protagonist, to heal in such a way, to make him be so dependent on him, in such a way that he's he's just killed his, his friends, and then he's like but now I'm offering you protection, what do you say?

Speaker 1: 24:22

jeffrey dean morgan is like great, he's so great villain he's like what are the magic two words.

Speaker 2: 24:27

Then rick just biting his tongue, going thank you and it just made me think of jd vance and this administration, this moment of going like we are offering your protection, we want our thank you and he's having to come grovel for this aid. And you, like I, I was frustrated with biden slowing his feet on on offering some some aid here, and so this is, um, but what? To me, the reason I bring this up? Um, you know it'll, it'll make sense here is after watching that and you're just me using this like just responding when, like in shock and horror yeah I had so many of republican friends come back and be like well, you know, if it was really zelensky who started the, he was combative and and.

Speaker 2: 25:12

And then I'm just like I'm sorry, what are we watching the same thing? And they're like yeah, he really. Why didn't he wear the right suit? And where it was, um, all of these things. It's like Zelensky was in the wrong here. I'm going like are we watching the same thing? And so I just here's my new theory there is nothing Trump can do that his base will not support him for. It's not a new theory, but like, just going to some examples Russia they have been the bad guy for so many years. Yes, but because up until like three months ago, we had Republican senators arguing that they are the bad guy, we need to valiantly support efforts against them. But now that Trump has turned, it's going eerily silent. And so we have Russia, who's now everyone's on board with and going like yeah, it's really as Trump is saying is saying like I would if I was in uh putin's shoes.

Speaker 2: 26:21

I would be doing what he's doing, or something like you're like what? How are we saying these things? Propaganda machine, bro, okay, okay, so. So russia is one example of how how people have shifted on this tariffs. No one loves tariffs, but now everyone seems to love to tariffs which are taxes like there's taxes that we will be paying and and someone might go.

Speaker 2: 26:36

You know, well, well, trump, is it really like it's? It's a bargaining tactic. We've heard people say this to us. They use these this way he, he does business. Is it trade wars? Is it because it sounded like, oh yeah, he got some, uh, concessions from some of these other countries, but now he's, he got the concessions from can Canada and now he reinstituted the tariffs. He's getting concessions from other countries and then he's reinstituting and then he's 200%ing champagne and okay, so he's, it's shifted our view on that Due process.

Speaker 2: 27:07

You think we would be a country that says that's really important, now we're going. It important, now we're going, it's really not that important, let's just, let's just institute the aliens act of whatever, 18 something. Yeah, um, not as important. Um, we used to think the morality of our leaders was really important and it was championed and said during the bill clinton years that, like the president needs to be the leader of morality, we have the most immoral leader in the world right now as our leader. Immigrants, as we talked about before. There was this view that if someone was seeking asylum, we would take care of them.

Speaker 2: 27:40

Abortion, still, I think many in the Republican Party are advocating as being pro-lifers. But then, when Trump pivoted on it, they're like, well, yeah, no, it's okay, you got to do what you got to do. So you didn't have a pro-life platform to vote for in the last election. Doge is not saving money, so we're not saying like this is the most financially feasible one. Then, when Trump was fighting with Zelensky, they're like, yeah, but he's the one trying to end the war because war is bad. And I'm like, amen, let's end all wars. And now we're bombing Yemen. Silence crickets, right.

Speaker 1: 28:22

Power and money. Man Power and money.

Speaker 2: 28:25

But really it's all about the economy, the price of eggs, Our economy is tanking and then people go. But you know what? I think this country needs the great reset.

Speaker 2: 28:35

it's like you can come up with a gazillion answers for whatever is happening. So there's no, there's no, there is nothing that we will not cave on. And there's this um, uh, great, great, uh response. Um, I saw david french um said there's this key insight from guy named jv last um, and one of the reasons why you can't count on trump's approval rating to go down when he does um popular things. No, trump has such a hold on the gop that when he takes an unpopular position, he makes it popular and he shows this link or this image of Republican views on Zelensky over the last 18 months and our our two years ago Zalensky. Zalensky was one of the most popular feet figures in self-identified Republicans. Now he's got a negative 40 approval rating under Donald Trump's opinion because he went against him and Donald Trump took a very unpopular position. And so I feel like many are going like well, maybe just when he's he's less popular.

Speaker 2: 29:42

Um, there's nothing that will will will persuade popular opinion. We will go with wherever he goes. If the wind is shifting this direction, we're going to go. That's what, the direction I was going to go anyways, it's, it's what. And so there's this guy, steve magnus, who says our beliefs go where our tribes go, especially when our identity is wrapped up in that tribe loyalty game. It's much more threatening to go to our identity, to go against our tribe. And he's written this, this book called winning the war inside and kind of says like we tend to think our views on such subjects are hardwired, that we believe that we pick our political party based on our moral beliefs. But it's the other way around Our political party picks our moral beliefs.

Speaker 1: 30:25

Dude Tough. Well that's the way that your identity works. That's exactly how it works.

Speaker 2: 30:30

And so.

Speaker 1: 30:31

Tough.

Speaker 2: 30:32

Malcolm, if that's true and the way way he, as he said it here, this is not just republicans, oh yeah, not just independents, not just democrats, libertarians. Sure, where do you think we're at at? Uh, tempted to to follow suit here? You think that you think we are? Obviously we should say we are just as tempted. Yeah, but are we both sides in it right now?

Speaker 1: 31:01

yeah, uh, no, I mean because I think I think that there is a um, I think the, I think the threat is much more active and naked, uh, now, than I think it's, than I think it's probably ever, than I think it's ever it's ever been. Yeah, um, yeah, especially in terms of like. So here's the thing like I'm not a, you know, I think I think I think democracy is a very, very good, very good thing because it allows us to, it's, it's a, it's a political system that that allows us to. So when, when? Um, is it first peter somewhere there where we're where we're, where we're called to pray for our political leaders, that we might be able to live a peaceable and peaceable and godly life? Yeah, um, and and and. Democracy is a political system that I think allows, allows that more than any other system.

Speaker 1: 32:00

Um, the folks who are in, folks who are in power right now, don't care about that. Um, what, what? What we're seeing are, I mean, I mean the the reins are being taken off of neoliberal capitalism to the extent that we're going to see. Mean, I mean the the reins are being taken off of neoliberal, neoliberal capitalism to the extent that we're going to see the privatizing of most public goods, because there's going to be an erosion of an understanding of a public good at all, um, there's an erosion of this idea that everybody should have the resources that they need to be able to flourish. It's like no, like, compete for it, um, and that, and that's going to lead to, um, I mean, it's just, it's going to lead to, to to death, um, and and like this goes back to what I was saying before about the state, like I I, especially over the course of these last like few years I am just, I am tearing myself away from being beholden to any, uh, like any, any political identity that binds me up with America in some particular way.

Speaker 1: 33:07

Like it's literally just, it's literally just where I live. And like I, I don't. This is and and this is and so is, and so you know, we can, we can have the patriotism discussion or whatever. But like, like, yes, I'm thankful. Like, yes, I'm thankful for the, for the kind of rights and privileges that I have and stuff like that. But like, all of those things are also fleeting.

Speaker 1: 33:33

People are realizing how much stuff has been rolled back in the last two months and they're finding out how fragile our systems really are because we assume that the people in charge are going to seek to maintain those systems. And right now, we're in a position where we have an executive branch where, like, they're actively having to be held back by the other two branches, um, and like, and they're, and they're, and they're, they're overreaching the bound, like, they're overreaching the bounds, the bounds that have been set for them, and they're just like, stop us if you, stop us, if you can. Um, I mean, you got situations of like, uh, you know where, uh, homan, the, the borders are. Um is like, is celebrating, not not obeying a judicial order. Yeah, I guess, like that, like this is the kind of I mean, this country has never seen, this country has never seen, this country has never actually seen that kind of thing before.

Speaker 2: 34:34

Yep.

Speaker 1: 34:36

And, and so people are now trying to figure out how to how to how to deal with it.

Speaker 2: 34:54

I think that's a great transition into our time. On the book of Revelation.

Speaker 2: 35:00

Dun dun, dun. We intentionally, as a church, chose to preach through the Sermon on the Mount and the book of Revelation as ways to prepare us for this. At that point, the upcoming election of 2024, and try to go. This is going to be super important for our country, for our church. Let's try to help our church, disciple our church to think through these things. So chose the book of Revelation, things um, so chose the book revelation. Um, malcolm, just kind of first big picture.

Speaker 2: 35:39

Um, from the last couple months yeah, what has surprised you about going through the book of revelation this time?

Speaker 1: 35:46

um, I mean, I've, I've probably been surprised by how much of a like personal effect it's had on, it's had on me.

Speaker 1: 35:57

I felt that way about the sermon on the Mount, but there are ways in which I think my own, like, my own spirituality has been in some ways reshaped by going through the book of revelation where, like, and it's kind of thing where, like, they're like, these are things that I knew before, that have become more central to kind of who I am and how I operate, so for so, for example, you know, one of the things that I get from the book of revelation is that, okay, john is writing these to churches that are under, that are under roman persecution, which is scary, um, but then what he gets over the course of that, of that book, is a vision of a world that's even scarier because you're dealing with demonic powers and things like that, um, and but even more powerful than that is supposed to be the, the overwhelming vision of god and the lamb on the throne and like, and that vision is supposed to be also what encourages, what continues to encourage us in the midst of, especially, like, political, political chaos.

Speaker 1: 37:03

Um, because there's a because, because one of the things I think I think also about the book of revelation is like expect political chaos, because that's what, like you, you are. You are then seeing more clearly kind of what the what the spiritual battle looks like until until christ, until christ returns yeah um, and so it's so.

Speaker 1: 37:27

So what that does. What that then does for me, though, is that it tempers the way that I respond to all the stuff that's going on around me right now, because, like, I'm not, like, I'm not surprised by it anymore, like I expect it. I expect it now, cause I'm like this is the way that beasts work, this is the way that beasts have always worked. This is the way that the last 2000 years of church history have functioned, like there have been periods of the world.

Speaker 1: 37:57

Throughout that time, we've thought in this, like we thought, particularly in this country, that we're shielded from all that stuff in for some periods. I mean, I think I'm a historian of lynching, so I'm a historian of a period where, like, people are constantly living in fear for their own lives and the government isn't the government is, in some, in some cases not helping them, in some cases an active, an active threat to their lives, and like, and we just we just assume, and, and like I mean especially, I think, over the course of the last like 50 years or so, we've just assumed, um, assumed peace, uh, and assumed a kind of broad system of justice, yeah, um, and, and in the meantime, people have been planning, you know, kind of to take over, but anyway, all that to say um, I mean, Revelation has been really really, really, really great.

Speaker 1: 38:49

Yeah, Uh, it's been one of my favorite things to preach through.

Speaker 2: 38:53

So that's been one of my favorite things to preach through. I was surprised and it's kind of funny because we intentionally chose Sermon on the Mount and Revelation as anticipatory to this big moment here. So Sermon on the Mount, you would think and give without asking in return things like this. And then we chose Revelation because we knew that this was going to be dealing with some of these cosmic issues that deal with politics. And yet I've been surprised at how political the book of Revelation is. Oh, really.

Speaker 2: 39:43

It's been so good because I've preached through it before, I've done studies through it before with churches. But with this lens I'm going, it's almost impossible to not see how political it is.

Speaker 1: 39:58

Bro.

Speaker 1: 39:58

Well, like the other thing is like it's our only book of new Testament prophecy and all of the prophets say all of this stuff, Like, like that's the other thing throughout the book of revelation is that, like, there are constant allusions to Ezekiel, to jeremiah, to isaiah, like, all, like, all of these are, all of these are themes that run throughout the entirety of the scripture, but especially throughout the prophetic literature and like, and this but, but, but the thing is, I mean, the book of revelation is the only book of new testament prophecy and so like, and and so, at least for for any of us kind of interacting with the book, that ought to be what we expect.

Speaker 1: 40:38

If we're aware of the themes that, uh, the themes that are present, present in the book of amos, and and hosea and micah, and isaiah, and and like, like in all those folks, then then then we ought to enter into that, expecting that. But most of kind of popular, uh, popular perception of the apocalypse or revelation, uh, is that it's this like other genre of like. You know, it's just a bunch of like, wild, crazy pictures about the future and all like, and all this kind of stuff. I was like, no, like, look at it in the context of, like, the prophetic literature of the scriptures, yeah, um, which is always deeply, which is always deeply, deeply political yeah, yeah, and that's the.

Speaker 2: 41:23

I mean I, I knew it was um a prophetic book and it was apocalyptic, um, but I mean I, I, I grew up, you know, thinking of it as you know only future oriented and you know, left behind kind of way of understanding these things. But I knew I wasn't there.

Speaker 2: 41:39

But, even then I still get surprised. I'm like this is so relevant to our day today and it has helped because just this last week know, preached and um kind of reminding us of the irony of the book of revelation is typically one of the most misunderstood books of the bible and yet it's.

Speaker 2: 42:02

It's called revelation because it's supposed to be an unveiling of the truth, yeah and we don't understand it like it's like it almost feels like it should be called the concealing, but it's like no, it's the revelation. It's supposed to make sense of things and I think, if we see it in that way, it's going let's make sense of the world we live in. Yeah, and it's making sense of the world we live in, because there's times when you're like I don't understand how people can continue to follow the beast and how they can continue this. You're like, okay, now this book is making make sense. You're like, oh, like now I'm seeing it and so it does make it helps me make sense and that, as you just said, kind of like personally. It helps you personally, uh, to to kind of work through that.

Speaker 2: 42:38

Um, but just for our listeners here who may not be listening along with us on the sermons here, um, I think the I mean again, it's all throughout the book but most prominently, uh, we, you know, in in revelation 12, we get introduced to the dragon and you know, as we talked today, we're talking about team lamb and team dragon, team lamb we were introduced in Revelation 4, and you have the throne room of God, yep, and you see the lamb who's taking the scrolls, yeah, the lamb of five yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:05

And so then now you have team dragon here and Revelation 12, this crazy image of the dragon about to eat the child who's about to be birthed. And it's this, you know, the satanic Christmas moment here of, you know, jesus about to be born but the dragon about to kill him, but then he's swept away. But then that dragon calls forth two beasts. Yeah, and this is where it gets even more and more political and more and more, you know, just clearly political in this way. And so in Revelation 13, you know, there's the, the, the dragon calling forth. He's on the shore of the sea, and then it says and I, in verse one, I saw a beast coming out of the sea, and it's describing the, the, the gory image of this beast. The Drake, gavin dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority, um, and then verse four the people worship the dragon because he had given the authority to the beast, and they also worship the beast and asked who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it? Yep, this, this we, I think, a bear reading. You're like how could someone ever worship the beast? And then the beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies again. How could anyone worship the beast? It opened its mouth to blaspheme god and slander his name and dwell in place and to those who live in heaven. Verse 7 it was given power to wage war. Who wages war? Empires, states, governments, yeah, and so almost all commentators would agree that the, the beast is the? Um, the satanic government, or the? Uh, anti-christ or anti-christian government waging war? Um in this way. And so I think, regardless, if you are on um, have our understanding of this. I think many people across the political spectrum would say that's what the beast is, um, but what I think is the I. I joked with um a few weeks ago with like, are we the baddies? Um, the question of like, but but is America Cause?

Speaker 2: 45:15

So for John, it's, it's extra clear's extra clear as he goes through this and he starts talking about and Malcolm will preach on this in two weeks or so about Babylon, and you see that the beast in these seven mountains, which refer to Rome, it's very clear. It's like as if John was to say, like you know the beast with the Statue of Liberty. You're like oh, I know which country he's talking about now. So, with the seven mountains, it's like okay, it's Rome, yeah. So for him, the beast is the Roman government. Yeah, it's obvious. And so he's describing a beastly government that is anti-Christ. It's the government that crucified and killed Jesus, yeah, right. And so we're like, yeah, get them John. But are we the baddies? Yeah, do we have a government that wages war against God's holy people? You're like, no, no, no, we're a Christian nation In fact, I love this nation that people worshipped the dragon because he gave authority to the beast.

Speaker 1: 46:16

There is no Christian nation, but the church. They worshipped the dragon because he gave authority to the beast.

Speaker 2: 46:18

There is no Christian nation but the church. They worshipped the beast. Every 4th of July, we will get t-shirts that show our allegiance to this beast, and so throughout this, I think to us the understanding is ever so clear that the beast is the United States.

Speaker 1: 46:36

In our setting, it was Rome for John, yeah yeah, I mean america is one of the beasts there are, there are always. Oh, it's the the there are. There are multiple beasts and there and there and there have been multiple beasts over the course of human history oh, there is, there is the there is.

Speaker 2: 46:53

There is a antichrist, there is the antichrist, there is the Antichrist there is. Isn't it interesting? Throughout church history, you have Luther and Calvin who make very, very clear that the Pope is the Antichrist. Yeah, and you have, I think, zwingli and Knox also refer John Knox also refer to the Pope as the Antichrist, and the Pope, then, is not just leader of the church, but also has the political power as well. And so the reason I bring this up and I'm being facetious that America is the beast, the one and only, and the question then is who would be the Antichrist? Is Donald Trump the Antichrist?

Speaker 1: 47:48

As I said in my sermon, no, donald Trump is not the Antichrist, but he is Antichrist. But he is antichrist, uh, in the sense that, in the sense that the scriptures would frame being against the things that christ is concerned about, um, when someone is deeply devoted to, uh, to greed, to the aggrandizement of their own ego, all these things are fundamentally contrary, they're all fundamentally contrary to christ, and so I would deem those things to be anti-christ. Uh and uh. You know, it's one of the things that we, as the people of god, are supposed to fervently avoid, not offer excuses for, not associate ourselves with, but to, but to, but to, but to avoid, and instead to form communities that bear witness to an alternative reality.

Speaker 2: 48:45

So Malcolm had preached this sermon on Revelation 13 a few weeks ago. That one day will be available publicly, but in preparation for it, as all of our sermons, we we read each other's sermons and give feedback ahead of time, and I remember him saying what he just said and I go. Should we name names?

Speaker 2: 49:09

on this Um should we just refer to? There are antichrists, um and I and not not. I don't even. I don't think I even commented this to you. I think I then go when it's that blatant as it is that blatant, we're not being unclear on this they're acting in very ant-christ ways, yeah, and I think, going throughout the history of the church.

Speaker 2: 49:39

You have, like we just said here, um luther knox calvin, naming names, yeah, and because there's there's gonna be people who and I don't know if anyone has said anything to you from that like how dare you um name him as a anti-christ? Um, like that, that is the gall um my thing is like, what?

Speaker 1: 50:00

like, my thing is like. Why would I be afraid to say like, why would I be afraid to say that? To say that someone who very clearly and on and unapologetically presents themselves as, uh, devoted to their own gain and devoted to, I said, their own ego, I was like those are two of the most primary sins and vengeance is a driving theme right now Greed, pride and vengeance.

Speaker 2: 50:32

Against lawyers and law agencies, against anyone who's gone after him.

Speaker 2: 50:38

It's vengeance Trying to revoke some of the pardons that Biden did because of an auto pen and say they're all void because, as you said before, he's just trying to push the envelope to tell someone, to tell him to stop. So all of these things are anti-Christ, and so I think it's right and proper to name the names. But if we were and so I think it's, it's it's right and proper to name the names, but if we were, if we were living in, um, uh, austria, um, who's the leader there? Um, or I don't know, okay, and our leader there was acting anti-christ, we should call them out and say this is beastly and they are acting as anti-christ. Um, and so it is. It is, I think, the right thing to do as a christian to champion your, like we have, we have one allegiance, and that's the team lamb, not the team dragon. And what is so discouraging in this moment, right now, and and maybe you can and shine light, I, so I agree with you that these things have happened all throughout our history.

Speaker 1: 51:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:41

But it feels like right now we're in this moment where, yes, these have happened throughout our history, but right now, like we oh, it's different 83% of yeah, it's different.

Speaker 1: 51:49

It is different the white evangelical church at least, is saying that's our guy, yeah, and so it's not seeing someone do beastly and antichrist things and going like, uh, shame, it's going yep we're supposed to have presidents that, like, we don't really care about and think about on a regular basis, like they're just supposed to, like just do their job and like make sure the country continues to run and the people have resources, and yeah, all that like I, I want us to be a situation where we're not thinking about the president anymore, but we're not in that situation. We're in. We're in. We're in a situation where the executive branch is essentially going after every major american institution and, in many ways, gutting them and like in that, like it and and and and, with the kind of, with the facade of um of of efficiency and this is not to say that we're not pro-efficiency. Efficiency is great, but, but it's, but it's ultimately, but it's ultimately a facade, it's ultimately a. This is how I'm gonna get more attention for me, I'm gonna get more money for me. All those kinds like, all those kinds of things, and that's just not like but, but what it but?

Speaker 1: 53:02

What it reveals, though, is how attractive that is to so many people. Yeah, and this is why it's why people end up worshiping the beast in the book of revelation. It's because power and money are really, really attractive to most human beings, and this is one of the reasons why the gospel is such a countercultural message, because where we are told in every other space of our lives that power is best acted out through domination and money is best mobilized through hoarding, what we're told by the gospel is that no, actually power is best used in self-sacrifice and money is best used in sharing. And that's just like Christ and his life are the only space where you're going to actually encounter that message. And when you really do encounter it and start to build your life accordingly, you start to realize that everything else around you is trying to pull you in the other direction. And now it's just very, very clear on a national stage that that's how you get ahead. You get ahead by using power in diminutive ways and by using money in exploitative ways.

Speaker 2: 54:16

Part of me is, every now and then, feeling like because politics is flooding the zone, as we reminded people, the goal of Steve Bannon and this administration right now. But part of me is worried that I'm becoming, it's becoming an idol of my own, because it is something that I think about a lot more these days than I ever did. Like you said, like we shouldn't be thinking about this, and so I'm worried. I'm like am I like, even now, like should this even be something we talk about on our podcast as much as we have? And yet, like the book of Revelation is reminding us, like Revelation 14, when it talked about like the angel coming out to them saying if anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on the forehead or on their hand, they too will drink the wine of God's fury. And so it's, the thing that John is most concerned about is the dragon, the beast and the false prophet.

Speaker 2: 55:10

And, yes, there are other things that we should be concerned about as Christians, but it's, I think, if we were to say like, let's not, let's not, but I think if we were to say let's not think political, I think that's a way. We cannot do that. We cannot do that. Yes, we can make politics our idol. We can put our hope in kings and princes and in presidents and someone who like, all right, let's deliver us from Donald Trump and let's have our hope in this candidate. Like, yes, we can make this an idol, but I've been convinced by the book of Revelation that we don't think about this enough. Like this is so important as what you just said. Like there is such a temptation to power that we have to root out of ourselves. And we are seeing it just on full display.

Speaker 1: 55:59

And it's now being seen like no, no, this is the reward for you taking charge, and so I I told uh and I think I probably said this on the podcast before um, one of our elders asked me uh, this was a few months before the election who I thought, who I thought was going to win? And I was like I'm pretty sure trump's going to win and, and it is going to be a period, it's going to be a period of testing. It was going to win and I was like I'm pretty sure Trump's going to win and it is going to be a period. It's going to be a period of testing. It's going to be a period of testing for the church, testing of allegiance. Because the question is going to be like are you like? Who's like? Basically, whose team are you like, whose team are you really on? Because now you're now like you may have been able to kind of fly under the radar throughout a, throughout a number of other, uh, number of other situations, but now you're going to, now you're basically going to be asked are you going to be on the side of domination and exploitation and cruelty or, uh, are you going to be on the side of Jesus? Which might require you to say some, might require you to say some things, to leave some spaces, say some things, to leave some spaces. This is to to, to, to, to to, to speak up in ways that you may not have had to before, in some possibly risky ways, because the stakes are. The stakes are just being dialed up. Stakes are being dialed up, dialed up for folks.

Speaker 1: 57:09

And in in, in, in revelation 18, we're talking about Babylon, where the image of Babylon is as the mother of prostitutes. But it's this image of essentially domination and exploitation. The command that's given to the people of God in Revelation 18 is come out of her, and that may not. You know, this is not like this kind of national call to emigration. It's a call to recognize where the logic of Babylon encroaches on you and leave those spaces. Don't let that logic dictate your actions. And that is. There are churches that are going to have to face that question Are they going to flee? Are they going to flee Babylon or are they going to run into her glittery arms? And we're seeing folks who are running into her glittery arms. But the end result of that is you end up facing the same judgment that she faces, and you can read the book of Revelation to find out what that looks like is there anything else that has surprised you from this book?

Speaker 2: 58:31

surprised me kind of shocked you with how good it is surprised me.

Speaker 1: 58:38

Well, you know we're coming up on the conclusion of it and I was talking to someone about this that when you see these kind of cycles of judgment over and over and over again, one of the things that I think is supposed to happen is you're supposed to get more excited as time goes on, because you get, yes, darker pictures of sin, but also you get more glorious pictures of christ, of christ's victory, yeah, um, ending in, uh, chapters 21 and 22, and this, this just beautiful picture of the new heavens and new earth, yeah, um, and ultimately, picture of the, of the saints ruling alongside christ, and, and, and, in a point that, um, that that antonio gonzalez makes, like it's not so that that picture of the saints ruling alongside christ is a, is a, is a picture of kind of ultimate, ultimate reigning. But what's interesting is that, like it, it's not like it's a we, we rule over the head, we rule over the new heavens and new earth, and part of that is none of us rules over each other. So, and, and, and, and. Part of the reason for that is that, like, the, only, the only human beings who are there, are sitting on the throne with the Father and the Son, and so domination is gone, and that is the picture. Not only is domination gone, but also exploitation is gone, because we are all sharing the infinite riches of the Lord, and like, and that is the like, that not only is that the picture of the end, but that is the picture that that ought to be at the forefront of the minds of every of every Christian, and that is, and that ought to be, the kind of that that ought to also shape the communities that we, that we build too. We're a people who know that that's the future, and the Holy spirit is with us now in order to form that, even in these small spaces that we have. So we got to think about creative ways to do that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

This is this, this is where I press in the book. This is basically what like, and it's also like. I think, in many ways, my like now, my like life as a pastor, is thinking about like. How do we actually show people that like, this is actually the way that it's supposed to look and that this is the way that it could look now? But but like. Those images are being like, just burned into my brain over the course of this book and I'll likely bring it to. Whatever other things we preach, like the sermon on the mountain and revelation, are going to be just permanently burned into my kind of pastoral impulses.

Speaker 2: 1:01:24

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I'd say the last thing that I would say has surprised me in. I knew the book got got very visual um and got very uh graphic and it's in in the judgments with. You know the judgments with the sickles and all of the bowls of wrath and all of these things. But what I think surprised me was all throughout it you have God's people singing these songs in the midst of it that I think need to help frame those instances of judgment.

Speaker 2: 1:01:59

Because you can read the book of Revelation and people do and they're like, oh, this thing is rough. God is, you know, like on a rampage of you know rage against the machine, and but then you read these, these songs, and I think Scott McKnight, you know, says these are not seen, as sometimes people refer them as like the hymns of the book of Revelation. He says I think a better term for these would be Negro spirituals and that it's the songs of the oppressed singing out in this moment. And I think that is the way to see this is you have the oppressed who are consistently being beaten down by the empire, by the beast, and then when God does deliver them, they're singing like in chapter 15, great and marvelous are your deeds, lord God almighty, just and true are your ways, king of the nations. And so it's like, yes, you've delivered us.

Speaker 1: 1:02:49

And.

Speaker 2: 1:02:49

I just I love to see that there's like a the heart of God in the midst of this, that there's nothing to apologize for. With the book of Revelation, this is God delivering his people and hallelujah he is delivering his people, and so I think it's been something beautiful to see. But two things that I think I've said something similar to that in some of our sermons, but some things that I left on the cutting room floor around. That was, you know, some of these events that we see as God's judgment could be the same event could be a trumpet for someone but it could be a bowl for another.

Speaker 2: 1:03:27

So a trumpet is you know a warning of God's judgment and kind of using this to warn us. But it might be a bowl, it might be the kind of final judgment for someone, not you know, ultimate but you know as a more definitive there, and so you know. Then you start thinking about like well, what are some of these avenues or ways of God, you know, showing his judgment, and you know he describes things that referred like the plagues of Egypt, and so you think of like disasters like that.

Speaker 2: 1:03:55

And so then you're like, wow, what about the disasters we've seen in our world today? And I just remember Hurricane Katrina came about in New Orleans and there were pastors who were saying, oh, that's God's judgment. And I don't know, maybe, but they were saying it's God's judgment because of the homosexuality that was rampant in the city and the promiscuity.

Speaker 1: 1:04:19

And you're like now. That feels very specific Be like you.

Speaker 2: 1:04:22

would need a special revelation for you to know that that's true and so I think I want us to be careful and it's like, on one level, like I love that, like I said nothing to apologize for in the book of Revelation, that it's like God is delivering his people and that's the judgment is coming.

Speaker 2: 1:04:34

But I want to make sure that we don't see that and going like yeah, so every time something like an event like california wildfires happen, we don't go. Oh, it's because of god's judgment. He's judging them for x, y and z, and so the, the people who are singing these songs, are the people, are the martyrs. Yeah, they have a unique position to know what god's doing where we don't yeah and so I just like I think that's the helpful like framework.

Speaker 2: 1:04:58

So we go like, yeah, these things might be that, but there's also a lot of hubris and this in trying to say I know what God is doing in this, like we don't know. It may be maybe he's doing that, but I still think we need to see that and like this is acts of God. He's still sitting on his throne in the midst of all of this, which is an important message for us as we are continuing on in this year of 2025. That feels like it's gone on for 25 years.

Speaker 1: 1:05:28

Yeah, it's just the middle of March, man.

Speaker 2: 1:05:31

That God is still on his throne and he is ruling and reigning, and just and true are his ways. And the wicked will not prosper. They will not get away with it forever, um, no matter how sly they think they are.

Speaker 1: 1:05:44

Um yeah, and you know, and this is why, like this, this is the other thing. Like we, we are told that we ought to if we are really building communities that, uh, bear witness to the kingdom of god, like the, the beast and the state, all these things like they're not gonna like us. Like persecution is not an anomaly in christian history, it's an expectation yeah and and so like, and and and.

Speaker 1: 1:06:17

So a lot of people are gonna get like scared and stressed out because of that and like. My whole thing is like I think a lot of Christ's teachings and a lot of the new Testament is meant to equip you for the inevitability of persecution. So, like you, so like the resources there are precisely what you need to be able to face those situations fearlessly. Yeah, um it the the worst like and I, I tell, I tell mosaic, this is the worst thing. Worst thing the enemy could do to you is kill you. And like, and and. Much of the scriptures are actually meant to prepare you, to prepare you for death, and but one of the reasons that that son of God took on, took on flesh was to free those who all their lives were held in, were held in slavery to the fear of death. Yep, he, he, he took on flesh to free us from that fear, to equip us to love, to love our, to love the Lord, our God, with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves without fear.

Speaker 1: 1:07:23

Yeah, it's good.

Speaker 2: 1:07:26

I'm just thinking practically how the enemy is working right now. Of some of those, no one is our enemy. The devil is the enemy, but there are those who are bearing the mark, that are and it's what I brought back to earlier what's hard, as in our moment today there are many uh in churches that are bearing the mark, that are following the beast.

Speaker 1: 1:07:52

some people and the thing is, man, I'm like, I'm pretty sure like there are some people that the lord has called to like really reach out to those folks and try to convince them to not worship the beast because they're on a path toward yes, you know amen, or toward the lake of fire.

Speaker 1: 1:08:08

Um, but like, but at least for me, like one of I think, one of my primary colleagues is okay, if you like, if you say that you're going to be, if you say that you have this allegiance to the lamb, let's actually do that, then yeah, and like, I'm gonna be one of these folks who's gonna try to hold myself accountable and hold you accountable to like, let's actually be lamb people, um, and and and, if you're not interested in that project, okay, well, I got people who, I got folks who are, so that's where I'm gonna spend my attention, um, but like, because the stakes are way too high and our time is way too short for us to play, for us to play games, um, and and I, you know, I just I, I hope that I hope that people will take this, we'll take this seriously, cause, like it's why, when you know when Jesus, when Jesus sent his Jesus, sent his folks out two by two, it was like you're some of them.

Speaker 1: 1:09:06

If they reject you, you're just going to have to brush the dust off your feet and move up and move on. Cause, like I got people, um, and, and you have good news, um, and, and you have good news. And so I mean I know, like I think we spend a lot of energy and a lot of energy and a lot of emotional energy being like, oh, but these people just don't get it. These people just don't get it, oh, they just don't get it, they don't get it. And I was like, yeah, like there are going to be some people who don't get it.

Speaker 1: 1:09:34

There are going to be some people who, I mean, veil is so, the veil is so thick that I mean you, all you can do is pray, because it's work that only the holy spirit can do um and and and but in the. But in the meantime, the lord has has formed these, these oases that the. The encouragement to elijah first, kings 19, is uh, go, anoint these people, because I've got a job that I called you to do and I've got 7 000 who haven't bowed the knee to bail. You're not alone. Go do the job that you're supposed to do. And those are the two words of encouragement that I offer to anyone who might be discouraged in this particular time.

Speaker 2: 1:10:09

Amen, amen. You are not alone.

Speaker 1: 1:10:14

There is. Team Lamb and you've got this podcast to listen, to join in, which we'll probably record more often, or something more than more than once every three months or whatever uh, y'all thanks for joining another episode of theology pieces.

Speaker 2: 1:10:31

Um, if you feel like your world is shattered to pieces, we hope this is a place where you are reminded that you are not alone. You are not crazy. There is a crazy world out there. But if you found this helpful or anything like that, would you leave a review? Would you share it with a friend? Tell someone else about it? That helps us. But write in, let us know what you're thinking. We're thankful we get to do this together because we are not alone, and so, yes, right in. We love to hear from you. We'll see y'all next week.

Speaker 1: 1:11:13

Thank you.