Speaker 1: 0:16

yeah, buddy, hey world, hey, welcome to another episode of Theology in Pieces where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world or somebody has shattered to pieces and we are your hosts, slim and Malcolm, that's my name. I forgot for a second but I remember, did you have a cool nickname that people start calling you now Nope, nope, nope, just Reverend Doctor, you know nope nope nope, just just just just.

Speaker 2: 0:43

Reverend doctor, that's what I I. I worked hard for these titles, so did y'all know?

Speaker 1: 0:49

we have throw it out there the reverend, the doctor malcolm foley on this podcast, who is a kind of a big deal man, whatever kind of a big deal, man, whatever you know, I got, I got I'm just hanging out I.

Speaker 1: 1:02

I was aware, malcolm I don't know if you know about this that there was a one Reverend, dr Malcolm Foley, cited as one of the top 10 authors of the top 10 books. Where is that article that I read the top 10 books by black theologians that everyone should read, everyone from lagoscom. Lagos is a fantastic uh resource for many pastor theologians. Um, and they list 10 beautiful, beautiful books. Uh, what did you think of the list there and, by by the way, yours being on it?

Speaker 2: 1:43

So everyone, let's give let's give a round of applause. It's pretty cool. Oh, and that too that too.

Speaker 1: 1:53

That too, and just for fun, I miss these sound effects. Dude, that's awesome. Yeah, man, top 10. That's pretty good.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Pretty good, pretty good deal. What did you think of that list? Awesome, yeah, man, top 10. That's a pretty good deal.

Speaker 1: 2:05

What did you think of that list?

Speaker 2: 2:07

I mean I like most of the people on that list. It's a good list. It's a good list. Tyshawn Gardner is a friend of mine. He saw McCauley as a good friend of mine. You know, I got some people.

Speaker 1: 2:23

You and Anthony Bradley pretty tight.

Speaker 2: 2:32

Yeah, I mean, why can't friend of mine?

Speaker 1: 2:33

yeah, you know, I got some, got some people you and you and anthony bradley pretty tight. Yeah, I mean, I call out individual people. I haven't interacted with him extensively, so I will. I will not, no, but he saw, I saw that. Yeah, is there anyone on this list that you're that? Is there anyone who's missing on this list that? That could be like a. You know, here's another 20 that you could think of.

Speaker 2: 2:45

I mean there's plenty of. I mean there's plenty of. There are plenty of black theologians out there.

Speaker 1: 2:50

I just love the.

Speaker 2: 2:52

I just love the fact that I. I just love the fact that I'm considered a black theologian.

Speaker 1: 2:58

I don't know if this is news to you, malcolm but I dance to you, but I dance I dance between a number of different.

Speaker 2: 3:08

I dance between a number of different uh disciplines yeah, so, yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1: 3:14

Uh, well, today we are wanting to talk about how to respond. Uh, oh, today I want to talk about despair, hope and this present crisis. I know it's rough, but before we get there, before we get there, because, uh, uh, malcolm, what do you? What? What do you? I know, I know what brings you joy, I know it's holy week brings me joy amazing amazing.

Speaker 2: 3:42

This is. This is who I get to be pastor with.

Speaker 1: 3:44

That's right.

Speaker 2: 3:45

That's just that is true I love it so much what were you about to ask? Because I'm just going to talk about holy week, but what are you gonna?

Speaker 1: 3:55

I was gonna say I know what brings you joy besides all the other. You know, video games, movies, things like this, but I also know reading brings you great, great joy yes and so I was gonna ask what? What are you? What are you reading these days?

Speaker 2: 4:08

yeah, so I'm rereading um serial serial of alexandria that christ is one, um, christ is one, that christ is one. So it's also I mean it's also translated uh, on the unity of christ, but it's, but the, the title, I think, more accurately translates to that Christ is one. What's that about? This is, it's just about the hypostatic union. So it's just about what it means when we say that the one who, basically it's, when we read through the scriptures and encounter christ, uh, jesus, we are, uh, we are encountering the eternal, the eternal son of god, who has taken a human nature for him, for himself, and is acting in the world like it's, it's, it's and it's.

Speaker 2: 4:58

It's especially an argument against folks like nestorius, um and others, who, who, who, claimed that that what was actually happening was that the eternal logos was conjoined to a man, jesus, and one of the points that Cyril is making is that no, no, no, there's only one subject. There's only one subject throughout that text, and that subject is the eternal son of God, and so the other. Because this was. It's one of these things that I reread over and over again, and I was prompted essentially to reread it after fully reading a book that I thought I had read a number of years ago, but it's called, but it's called life in the trinity by by donald fairbairn, who teaches at uh, gordon conwell right now. But the argument of this, the argument of this book, and it's like so I, I, I heartily recommend this book to everyone. It's basically an intro theology book, um, but it's got a lot of the early church fathers in it which one zero.

Speaker 1: 5:58

Life in the life in the trinity, yeah, life in the trinity, um and the, and.

Speaker 2: 6:02

And. Fairbairn's argument is that what Christianity is about fundamentally is it is about it is about Christ no taking the power back seven mountains.

Speaker 2: 6:16

So far, I feel like I'm hidden at all. None of those things. Also, better than all of those things, it is Christ inviting us into the very relationship that the son of god has with the father. Okay, like that's what that is. That is what that's what the scripture. Like, that's what that's what the gospel is about, that's what the scriptures are about. It's god inviting us into the divine life, and what that means is he's inviting us into the relationship of love, that share between the son and the father. And that is what we, that is what we lost when we rebelled against the lord, and that is what, and that is what christ secured for us in the death and in his, in his death and resurrection. And and and there was a, there's a chapter in that book, chapter eight, where he talks about redemption, where he, where he's just reflecting on the incarnation. And there are four, there are four church fathers that he spent that Fairbairn spends a lot of time with. He spends a lot of time with Irenaeus, athanasius of Alexandria, augustine and Cyril, and in this chapter he's just kind of laying out the incarnation, but just in all of its absurdity and its beauty.

Speaker 2: 7:33

And I'm going to do this on Sunday for the Easter sermon, but the absolute ridiculousness of the eternal son of God, for whom suffering and death are not experiences because they can't be like there's no god as the creator of the universe is. Suffering and death are not part of who god. This is not part of who god is. But he takes, but he takes on. He takes on human flesh and becomes not only susceptible to suffering and death, but actually does do it because he loves you and me and like and that is that's, that's. It's absurd. It doesn't make any sense. But then, but, but even but at its absolute darkest and this is what what we are reminded of on on good Friday and and Holy Saturday is. Is that uh? So when we say death, when we, when we refer to death, in many of our minds it's uh, it's a.

Speaker 2: 8:37

The first thing we think about is a ceasing to exist, and that's not the way that the scriptures frame death. Scriptures frame death in two ways. You've physical death, which is the separation of the soul from the body, and then you've got spiritual death, which is alienation from God, and that death is specifically what Adam and Eve experience when they sin and are kicked out of the Garden of Eden. They do die. They're told in that day they would die. They do die. They're alienated from God in pretty significant ways.

Speaker 2: 9:04

Yeah, but when you think about the son of God, second person of the Trinity, the entirety of his existence is communion with God. Like that's who, that's, that's at the core of who. He is not like who and what he is like, that is, that is, that is that is his entire existence, up until up until the cross. So I, I was I for a while in that, uh, in that song, how deep the father is, how deep the father's love. People get upset. Some people get upset about the uh, about the line the father turns his face away.

Speaker 2: 9:42

Yeah, and I was upset about that, I think, for a while. And then. But then I, in rereading cyril and in being reminded of the actual uh, you know of what's, of what's going on, what's going on in the in the cross, and also like cyril I, I I'm adopting Cyril's kind of language markers of saying that on the cross God died, that God suckled at Mary's breast, that when Christ walked and ate among his disciples, god walked and ate among the 12. Because that's what's happening, that's who you're like when you see Jesus, you're seeing God, and so on the cross, what's important for the Christian to affirm is that Christ experiences the Son of God, experiences physical death, which he could only do because he took human flesh, and he experiences spiritual death, which he could only experience because he took human flesh. When Paul says that God made the one who knew no sin, he made him to be sin.

Speaker 2: 11:07

For us, like that's, what we're saying is that the Son of God, for whom his entire it's like even to use the word life seems too small to describe what it is like that Jesus does, but for him to subject himself himself even to the extent of spiritual death because of his love, because of his love, for us there's no like, there's nothing else that matters, slim, there's nothing else that matters.

Speaker 2: 11:36

And so, um, and so, every every week, every week, when we do this, it, it, it. It reminds it, it reminds me of why I love, um, I mean also, I mean just why I love Jesus, but also why I love, uh, why I love preaching, why I love preaching so much, because, uh, because I need this, I need this to be driven so deep into my soul that that I know that it's the only thing that matters and that that I know that it's the only thing that matters and one of the things that, uh, and it, and it helps me to keep to have an opportunity to keep telling people that this is that this is all that, this is all that matters.

Speaker 2: 12:13

Um and that and that. That. Then, like it's like it, when, when, when, when that's the picture. Like, of course I'm going to, of course I'm going to seek to do what it is that the Lord wants. Seek to do what it is that the lord wants me to do. Yeah, like no, who else has done, who else is?

Speaker 2: 12:30

yeah who else has done anything anything like that for me. Yeah, so, um, so it it, uh, it reminds me of how much I want, excuse me, how much I want the people of god to know how much, how much god loves them. Yeah, and this is, and this is what john is. This is what john is saying when he says this is, this is and I, you know, I use this in the book to talk about love, as you know, material care for your neighbor and stuff like that. But but that, but that verse in first john 3, 16, that this is how we know what love is, that jesus christ laid, that jesus christ laid down his life for us. Um, and like, and the whole thing, like in John, the fact that the way that Christ's death is narrated, like when he in the moment of his death, that it's narrated as he handed over his spirit.

Speaker 1: 13:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:43

Because the only, because the only way that he dies is if he hands it over, and so, and like it's it's, it's, it's, it's something like, even, like, even in the, even in the moment that he's, even, in the moment that he's betrayed, and and Peter cuts off the slave's ear and he's like he's like, and Jesus is like Peter, look, look, slave's ear, and he's like he's like, and jesus is like peter, look, look, look, look, man, put it away. Like I could, I could, I could call down 12 legions of angels to protect myself right now. Yeah, at any moment I could shut all this. I could shut all this down. Yeah, but I'm not, but I'm not, but I'm not going to. I'm gonna go to the, I'm gonna go to the, like I was, I was just reading, I was just reading, I was just reading this morning, uh, uh, you know, on the on the wednesday, so this is before the uh, before the passover.

Speaker 2: 14:39

But uh, I mean it's when he, when he tells his disciples and I think it's, I think it's just like just before then he tells them, I think in the, in his other uh prophecies about his death.

Speaker 2: 14:51

And then I'll, and then I'll stop, because we probably want to talk about other stuff but his prophecies about his death, anything, he just says he's going to die, but but in the but two days before his death he says, uh, I'm about to be crucified, yeah, and, and, like, I just think about, like, what, like, just um, you, you know what is, what is what is like to to, to know not only that you're about to die, which is something that you've never experienced before, but also that it's going to be a maximally shameful.

Speaker 2: 15:23

It's going to be a maximally shameful death when you have just, in the high priestly prayer, you know, referred back to the glory that you had with your father and the fact that you're inviting these folks into that same glory, and you know that the only way to get to that glory is through this, is through this shame. I mean, part of the part of the center of the christian faith is that the is that the only way, is that for us now, the only way to life is through death, and that's the only, and that's the gospel that we preach y'all, this is man.

Speaker 1: 16:01

Maybe if you're not watching online because we don't have a YouTube version, you might not be able to tell, but this is the emotions coming through Malcolm here. This is one of the reasons I I love you man. I love you you you wear you wear your emotions on your sleeve every time, like every holy week, I just call it.

Speaker 2: 16:22

I just call it my weeping week, because every day of the week something happens and I just and I and I'm just crying all week and it's great, and it's great and I love it, it's great and I love it.

Speaker 1: 16:33

So anyway, but this is like a beautiful picture of, I think encapsulates what we're trying to do with this podcast of theology in pieces and sometimes we can emphasize the pieces. Part that things are broken and everything is rough and we do want to address those and we're going to talk about some rough things happening in our world. But the goal is to rebuild your theology, to get us to the point where we actually are wrestling with the goodness of our creator and the goodness of Jesus and his love for us. And so all this stemmed from hey, what are you reading? And we got that sermon, so thank you bro, sorry about that.

Speaker 2: 17:14

All right, we get back to business I knew it was gonna go there.

Speaker 1: 17:19

That's why I asked oh, I love it uh, well, I want to hear more from, uh, the life in the trinity. Yeah, I'll bring it. I'll bring it back up again. Um exiles in Babylon conference and uh not just go. Malcolm actually spoke at and little to my knowledge uh was engaged in a debate uh at the conference.

Speaker 2: 17:57

Yeah, I was sitting there shocked. I was like, oh, this is like a 20 minute speech.

Speaker 1: 18:03

And then it was like, yeah, 20 minutes back and forth and debate style, and it was, it was weird, uh, I mean and debate style, and it was. It was weird, uh, I mean it was great that his counterpart uh, it was odd, uh, but malcolm did great, uh go. I guess they put it online, I don't know I don't know if it's online yet but at some point it will be yeah, but um, anyways, the um.

Speaker 1: 18:23

While at this conference, though, the last day they had this, uh, that this sociologist, mark yarhouse, uh, who's someone we've attempted to to bring on the podcast a while back, when we were having our discussion on lgbtq uh questions and wrestling with this, as as, as you know, on the podcast, yeah, um, but I've yet to be able to to get him um, but he was there and just kind kind of reminded me of like how much I want to go into this, and so I was just reading one of his books. That is just so good. His book is Understanding Gender and I just think that's, it's an understanding gender dysphoria, and just the way he speaks on this topic with such compassion and wrestling with people, um, who are um, as he um would say, from from his people who are he's um you know doing um work with saying that they feel like they're, they're uh, as if they like I have a note that's just out of tune and something just doesn't feel right.

Speaker 1: 19:28

Um, so they're feeling this gender dysphoria, feeling, uh, that there's something isn't right inside their, their bodies and it's just, it's something needs.

Speaker 1: 19:36

It's like you know, you're like something's not right. I need, I need to see, I need to talk to someone and fix, fix this um, and so, just it brought the compassion of um, the whole subject to talk through this and I just I was really appreciative of the way he Um, and so he's got a few books that anyways, um reading through that, and it's just been really, really helpful to think through um, our bodies and you know how God has has created us, uh, but also what the fall has done and then you know, for impacting everyone, um, and so there's just a topic we will cover one day, we will talk about, but I didn't want us to jump to it at that time, you know, a year ago, until we were able to bring on someone like him, or maybe um, someone in his orbit, um, to talk through it together. So that's coming, that's coming, um, but um, oh, malcolm, besides the good news of um you getting the top 10 book.

Speaker 1: 20:35

There's some things going on in our world. I don't know if you know. That's just a little concerning Some things.

Speaker 2: 20:43

Some concerning things what's most concerning to you right now, sir.

Speaker 1: 20:49

You know, let me this. This is, this is uh, let me let me say this as a we have terrible tweets, right? Um, um, I don't, I'm doing this on the spot, uh freak out Facebook.

Speaker 2: 21:06

I'm just going to do the whole bit in this voice. Okay, that sounds great, gosh.

Speaker 1: 21:15

I ruined it all. No, I'm a part of a secret elite Facebook group that you have to be invited into. You have to be invited into. I've since left the group officially, organizationally, but they've let me stay in their Facebook group, this religious organization.

Speaker 2: 21:40

When they're listening to this podcast. They'll find out and kick you out.

Speaker 1: 21:45

So I'm still aware of things going on in a former organization I was a part of, and Christianity Today put out an article that was sharing how America could lose 10 million Christians to mass deportations. So we will lose 10 million Christians because of these orders to mass deport, uh, across the you know to, to wherever, um, and we'll talk about some of those specific places, but, um, and it was just, you know, it's one of those articles you're like, oh my, can we not just lament? Can we not go like this, put our partisan you know hat aside for a second here? This feels really, really bad. And in that particular group someone posted the very first thing was in God's providence. He used the exile to spread the faith throughout the world 2,500 years ago. He could use this as well for his mission, as the american church has been too hesitant to leave their comforts to become foreign missionaries in the past few years. And then people behind him are going amen, yes, so they're.

Speaker 1: 23:01

The response to let's deport 10 million christians from america is not hey, this, this could be wrong, this, this may be bad, what we're doing. The response is let's say let's, let's put a positive spin on it and say you know, this could be good for the world because we're now sending christians. It's like we're sending out missionaries, you know, deporting them and and just just to like, step into this person's world, um, and and go. Well, let me think. Let me think. What I'm saying here is if, if, if it's, if, it's likened to, um the exile is what they said, you know where he got. Spread um, spread the, the good news in this way um going to babylon and to nebuchadnezzar and to, to this group here with you know, daniel shabrach, meshach and abednego. Okay, so does that make us nebuchadnezzar and and? And we're saying good on, good on babylon for sending into, deporting all these people, like, what does that mean?

Speaker 2: 24:00

I don't know if this person would say the same thing if they were, if, if, if they themselves were deported to a country that they had no, that they had no link to right, when, when, what, because, because what? Because what we're also seeing is the deportation of people who are in this country legally, and and the fact that the and the fact that the administration has essentially stated they don't care as long as you can be framed, as long as you can be framed as a criminal or a terrorist or a gang member or whatever. That in the eyes of, in the eyes of at least this administration, that means they can do whatever they, whatever they want to you. It's not what the constitution says, but that's what, but that's what they and what, and not even the constitution, like the fact that marriage is as, as christians, we ought, we ought, we ought not think that way about other human beings. You think about this, think about this, this, this, this, this prison in El Salvador, and the way that human beings are being treated. Nobody should be treated, no one, no human being.

Speaker 2: 24:58

I don't care what you've been convicted of, or, and most and and and 75% of the people that we've, that, that, that this that this country has sent there don't even have a criminal record and there's been no due process. And so and, and, and, and so, and so it but the. The fact that matters is that we, we ought not treat any human being in that way. But what? But what we're seeing at a and we've seen this, especially for the last few months we've just seen, we've seen cruelty and stupidity, and the fact of the matter is that and and this, like the god has, god has a god has a special form of judgment for people who use their, for people who use their power to destroy and exploit human life hold, on hold on, man you're, you're getting to the.

Speaker 1: 25:49

I want to. I want to go there. I want to hear some of this you're you're excited you're excited um. So this is just the the former group, uh, kind of reframing this and going okay, um, why are we talking about this again? Oh, and the exile point the the exile point.

Speaker 2: 26:09

The exile is a judgment on god's, on god's people, right? So it would be it like it is a failure, even if you were to interpret it first of all. There's all kinds of like it's. It's a toxic soup of dumb, is that? Is that? It's that that response?

Speaker 2: 26:27

new episode title like just if you people just need people need the moral imagination to see evil and say that it's evil. Don't jump straight to. Oh well, here's the possible, here's the possible good thing that god can do it. No, no, lament the evil. Lament the evil for what it is. Lament the fact that families are being broken apart. Lament the fact that people are living essentially in fear because of, because of the whims, because of the whims of a power hungry and greedy administration. Lament those, lament those kinds of things and why are we christians, pastors, talking about this?

Speaker 1: 27:12

this? Shouldn't this just be something that's um left to the political realm? Um, well, one this was in a christian pastor's group, um, that was bringing this up. So there there was. I think pastors are talking about this and, as as malcolm said very eloquently, with a toxic soup of dumb. But also, have you seen this clip of? There was some type of religious gathering it might have been a turning point type thing, where that woman was doing a live painting.

Speaker 2: 27:46

Yes.

Speaker 1: 27:47

And as an act of worship yes, and painting Donald Trump yeah. Painting um, yes, um, and as an act of worship yeah, and painting donald trump yeah. Which side note I loathe I I'm a big arts fan we have we, we use arts in in in the service. Yeah, but I loathe when a pastor is preaching and then they have a an artist on the side with the the paintbrush trying to paint what they're preaching have you ever?

Speaker 2: 28:08

have you ever been a part of that? I haven't been a part of it or seen it. I don't think I've seen it in a church context.

Speaker 1: 28:15

Yeah, I was at a youth specialty, a youth pastor kind of training thing, and there was a guy preaching.

Speaker 1: 28:21

There's twice I've been to these things when I was in the youth ministry world and the guy's preaching and then there's a woman on stage or a person on stage painting what they're trying to preach. Hopefully it wasn't the same person. Um, it's just so distracting. I was like wait, what did you say? I got lost in. Like she's going to some some wild ways over here, um, regardless. Um, so she is painting trump and it's just the all the. The people are like it's so beautiful, they're like they're like bowing down and they're like they're literally like worshiping what they would. I mean, this is a like, a Christian moment, like they're worshiping. It's just the idolatry is right there. And so this is again. Why are we talking about this? Is the idolatry of Trump. Is is just so prevalent amongst Christians amidst some really heinous stuff that's happening.

Speaker 1: 29:10

Um, another thing that that was really fun um is the, the tariffs conversation. Um, everything, malcolm, is liberate. Do you feel liberated? Liberation day? Liberation day happened and it lasted a week, um, and it was fantastic. And I saw this meme that said uh, um, it was like it was like Trump calling like a, like the, you know, uh, tech support, it's like. It's like, um, the tariffs aren't working and they go well, have you tried turning them on and off again? Which is just so sad, but that's exactly what's happening. It's just. No one can plan anything.

Speaker 2: 29:46

We've lost trillions of dollars in stock markets and things like this but one of the one of the most significant losses is is in, uh is just in national reputation. I mean there's uh, over the last quarter of the course, the last few months, there's just been an erosion of you know, and, if you, if you just think in terms of foreign policy, this is one of the one of the primary jobs of the president is to represent us, yeah, internationally, uh and, uh, and. And our relationships with a number of our closest allies have just been, uh, have just been crushed it's dead, yeah, dead.

Speaker 2: 30:23

Travel from travel from canada to the us, as well as travel from the from, from the european union to the uS, as well as travel from the European Union to the US, has tanked in the last few months. That's an indicator of our international reputation, and that's the kind of thing that takes. It took decades to build, but now people are figuring out how fragile our system really is, because it only took a few months to yeah, and even if we, even if people are going like, well, let's just wait till the next president.

Speaker 1: 30:57

But as, as uh david french has said, like what we've done, though, you can't unring this bell that it all it takes is trust is very hard to build is the wrong president, and america is willing to follow them and to do this um, and so it that you, we will not get that back um quickly, um, but all that is to say, you know, like the, the thing I wanted to bring up, the question that, like the, the atlantic wrote an article that says the constitute. The constitutional crisis is here, and so I want to ask you, malcolm, are we in a crisis right now? Are we in the crisis? Is it like the tipping point of? Like there's no turning back? This is it.

Speaker 2: 31:42

Well, I mean. So you know, the Supreme Court unanimously said that Trump has to bring that guy back from El Salvador, and he said Shemar Abrego Garcia.

Speaker 2: 31:53

And he said, no, like that, that's not how this is supposed. Like, that's not how this is supposed to work. And now people are now realizing that, oh, like, the rule of law only matters insofar as, like, people agree that the rule of law matters. Yeah, turns out, that's how social constructions work. Uh, yeah, it's like it only, it only has meaning if we all agree that it has meaning. If you put somebody in power who doesn't care, someone who fundamentally just cares about their own power, wealth and those kinds of things, yeah, this is what they do yeah, and so to if you have been under a rock, um the.

Speaker 1: 32:34

The story is there is a maryland man, um kilmar abrigo garcia um, who is from el salvador, um, but was um here and he had like one stipulation that he could not be deported to el salvador, and the one place they sent him to was el salvador um, and so he was. It was the.

Speaker 1: 32:54

The united states has admitted it was an administrative error um that they sent him there, um, but now, um, the supreme court has ruled nine, oh all nine justices have ruled that he was illegally removed. And trump is, um, pretending that he won the ruling 9-0 because the Supreme Court said that you must facilitate his return. And now they are taking that word facilitate and that's how they are now not actively going against the Supreme Court. They're saying that word means we don't have to force him to come back. It's if el salvador sends him to us, then we will facilitate his welcome. Um, stephen miller, um, everyone's favorite uh, trump aid is uh, he said. He said in our the the supreme court was 90 in our in our favor against the district court ruling saying no district court has the power to compel the foreign policy.

Speaker 1: 33:53

And you know what propaganda man, you don't be really helpful is if there was a really convenient time for the president of el salvador to to return this, this man who was, as the supreme court has said, we need to facilitate his return. And what? What do you know? He's coming to meet with president trump on monday and he could have just like, brought him in, brought him with him. It could just come come on with he's, you know, hitch a ride with me, but he says he can't. The president uh, you say Bukele says I don't have the power to return him to the United States.

Speaker 2: 34:37

Um so so nobody does so.

Speaker 1: 34:39

Trump can't do it, nobody has the power. The president of El Salvador can do it. So why are we sending people to El Salvador If no one has able to say I, we need to bring this person back? This does not feel legal.

Speaker 2: 34:53

That's why people use the language of concentration camps.

Speaker 1: 34:55

And now Trump is saying homegrowns are next. He's caught on video talking to him in the Oval Office saying homegrowns are next, the homegrowns. You got to build about five more places because your current mega prison that has the worst conditions like terrible conditions is not big enough.

Speaker 2: 35:14

And where the entire purpose of it is not rehabilitation, it's not you like paying a debt to society, or whatever the carceral language that tends to be accepted is. It's just like you're just. You're literally, you are deemed like, you're there for the rest of your life. You'll never see your family again. You're like there's just like that's, it's just, it's just extended torture. Yeah, that's essentially what it is this is uh from max burns.

Speaker 1: 35:41

He says from the us holocaust museum. This is quote from the us holocaust museum. What distinguishes a concentration camp from a prison in the modern sense is that it functions outside of a judicial system. The prisoners are not indicted or convicted of any crime by judicial process. And this is where I feel like I feel like democrats were were slow to respond to this because they're like, well, what if he was, uh, an ms-13 member? That the administrative is saying is is that he's, he's a part of this, this, this gang that is doing terrible things, and so everyone's scared to like try to go to bat for someone who, who could be doing some terrible things to, to us citizens. If he is, then let's, then we then then the discipline process.

Speaker 1: 36:25

That's what we have a judicial system for and so the I think now people are going like it's that's what we have a judicial system for. And so I think now people are going like what we need to be talking about is due process, because right now, all we have is the president saying he is a gang member. I think I recently heard something that they were trying to say they're throwing some more mud on him things he's done. But then just yesterday they had his wife who has I think they have two children. She's like out there saying you know, your children miss you, and like like there's, you're just going oh man, this, what if this happens to someone else? And all you have, all you have to say, is you're, you're a gang member quite frankly, it's lynching.

Speaker 2: 37:04

It's lynching all over again. Like that's, like, that's, like it's all you need. All you need to do is be able to say that somebody is a criminal and that exposes them to brutality and violence. Like it's the, it's the, it's the same, it's the same kind of thing. If, if somebody, if an, if, if, if an American citizen has been placed into a situation where neither the president of your own country nor the president of the country that you have been sent to can do anything about it, there's no like. The fact that anybody has facilitated that kind of, that kind of situation is horrific, yeah, and that's why I mean it. You know, if, if, if, if anybody in and I I say this as somebody with, with an, with an unquenchable hope and an unquenchable joy. But there are reasons. There are reasons for fear.

Speaker 1: 37:58

And we are not the defenders of capitalistic, uh uh world that we live in.

Speaker 1: 38:06

we are not defenders of like democracy as being like the pinnacle of of the way we do the world, uh or way we we organize society good ones, the best of but it might be the best that we have, but right now democracy is under um and and this three tiers of government is under such constraint that the Atlantic and others are saying, like the constitutional crisis is here, because if you have a Senate that is just abdicating their role in any leadership at all and just have deferred to Trump, and then now you have the Supreme Court, who's like the last one, standing challenging, directly challenging, and saying no, you need to bring him back, and he's defying them. What's going to happen now?

Speaker 2: 38:47

you've got some folks I mean, we've got some folks in congress going down to el salvador, I think even even today.

Speaker 1: 38:52

Yeah, um chris, um one centers.

Speaker 2: 38:56

Yeah, yeah, what's his name, but I'm well and there and there are a few who have talked about doing doing the same thing. So we'll see over the course of the I mean, we'll see over the course of these next few days, what, what, what happens, but it like so if, if we are in a constitutional crisis, if we are in the you know not the end times, the uh the end game um the just, uh, you know a very a crisis mode here.

Speaker 1: 39:19

Um, what should the christian do? Let me read to you the five stages of grief um, because I feel like I've been going through those, uh, and it's been like like a cycle. Um, the first stage is denial is this can't be happening? Uh, have you felt that this week?

Speaker 2: 39:38

uh, I've felt that my view of this, my view of this country I mean my just just my view of this, my view of this country's moral imagination and stuff is very, very, very low. You get that from the, you get that from the book. Still it's just like no, no, people are terrible people do terrible things, and when you put and when you put terrible people in positions of power, they're just gonna do terrible things, or terrible at a at a more significant scale than they've ever been able to do before.

Speaker 1: 40:07

Well, maybe if you're like me, denial definitely keeps happening a lot we're like this can't be happening.

Speaker 1: 40:12

How is this allowed? And we have that as a defense mechanism to help numb that initial shock and give us time to slowly process the reality of what's happening. The second stage is anger. Why is this happening? Who is to blame? And it's the frustration, the rage of the. You know like the anger is is directing to say like something needs to be done, and I think that's a uh. There's righteous anger. They're like I don't want to say anger is bad, um, I think that's good um, but at some point you're like but what? Nothing? If no one can check this, what do we do? And so then there's the third stage is bargaining. If only I had this, or maybe we can do this, or maybe we can work with Trump, and maybe we can make it work somehow, and we're trying to negotiate the undoing of this pain.

Speaker 1: 41:02

And then there's depression, uh, despair, dread, uh, and I feel like I hit that like over and over and over this past week, interesting, and I'm just like, oh, I'm preaching um palm sunday and the, the king, is coming, and I'm like had to like preach that to myself. And so I don't know if you are like me, but I feel like I'm just like stuck at stage four of just this profound sadness and just I don't want to accept it. But it's like, just that like, and it's made me kind of withdraw and go like what is the point? It does not seem like anything is going to change. And the fifth stage is acceptance. It's, it's, it's going to be okay. Um is what you know, these five stages of grief. Grief are, um, but so these are the stages of grief. But what? What should the christian do if we are in this crisis? Um, some, some options people have put out. There is um, and now the trump administration is is encouraging to self-deport.

Speaker 1: 42:03

They're they're they're, uh, they're encouraging, encouraging to self-deport. They're encouraging people to self-deport, but maybe you, as a Christian, are not really thinking you need to, but maybe you want to. Maybe you're going like you know what, maybe this is just not the country and so I really like that. That's kind of like the escape pod. Is it just to ignore it and just be like you know what? What I really care about right now is NBA basketball. We are finally in playoffs. The Warriors won last night. They get to play my Rockets.

Speaker 1: 42:30

That's going to be a good game, which means it's going to be Malcolm versus Slim.

Speaker 2: 42:34

Hey man, let's do it.

Speaker 1: 42:37

And you can't ever bet against Steph, but again you can try. Is this the conversation? This is why I'm like I had another idea of what we wanted to talk about today, but it's like I feel like we're just ignoring this giant reality that's right in front of us? Or do we just hide and kind of like hide from all that's happening and put our head in the sand? Or do we hide in the other way of you know what? Let's start hiding immigrants. Let's hide Anne.

Speaker 1: 43:04

Frank let's start hiding immigrants. Let's, let's, let's, let's. Hide hand frank um let's start figuring this out. Or do we fight? Do we actually take it to this government?

Speaker 2: 43:14

so here's, here's hosanna the highest.

Speaker 2: 43:17

Let's take it back here's my creative anti-violence point. I think there are three things. Uh, broadly, we should, uh, so people say, know your, know your rights, which you know limited, limited import when, when the government doesn't actually respect or recognize those rights but know them. Um, one of the one of the reasons that, uh, you know, when ice went through, uh, chicago and did their raids in chicago, it frustrated, uh, it frustrated them that that city had prepared and prepared for that. Um, because one of the things that um and this is um, uh, um, representative acasio-cortez was saying this that um, you know that, uh, one of the things that I one of the things that ice banks on, is you not knowing your rights so that they can then use that to search your, search your stuff and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 44:13

Yeah, um, but uh, but we are still currently apparently in a stage where, uh, if you know those rights, then you'll be able to, then you can, then you can assert them. I think about you know the situations that Paul was in when he asserted his Roman citizenship for like the like. But you've got to if you know, you know, but you, but you, but you've got to, you've got to know those privileges that you have in order to be able to use them, but not just for yourself.

Speaker 1: 44:42

That, because the second point is to, is because the second point is to protect your neighbors, which we had this immigration crisis meeting after church this past Sunday, and one of the helpful points being made there was this knowing our rights, and a lot of us don't really know our rights or what immigrants' rights are. Know what might've happened in Chicago, might happen here, um, and, and wherever you may be at. And so, um, knowing what those rights are is really helpful, and so we have a link we'll put in the notes um, from the ACLU, um, of knowing, like you know the rights when, what happens when ICE is outside the doors in our communities, in our streets, um, when, when you were asked about your immigration status, what do you have to say to anything?

Speaker 2: 45:26

Yeah, yeah, things like this, but all that helps slow the system down, which is what you want to do Like. The fact of the matter is and this is in so Timothy Snyder has this great book on tyranny where he's got kind of what you do, the things you do in the midst of an authoritarian government, and one of the and I think it's the first one is don't comply in advance, because authoritarian governments only get their power from people doing what they say.

Speaker 2: 46:02

Doing what they say the only way that you can think about this with the Nazis, but you can think about it in any authoritarian government. It includes a bunch of people who are doing what the government says, and so this is, in some ways, it's the power of civil, of civil disobedience too. It's just like if somebody is telling you to do the wrong thing, don't do it just don't do it yeah and like and and and and and and.

Speaker 2: 46:37

And. If somebody is, you know, if somebody's, if somebody's telling you to, you know, snitch on yourself or whatever, just don't. Just don't do it, make them, if don't, don't do their work, don't do their work for them. Um, and and and that, like that. Like that's one of the ways to, it's one of the ways to non-violently undermine, um, undermine oppression, because one of the other things is that if, if you respond violently, the state will respond violently. Right, and they're waiting for an opportunity. They're waiting for an opportunity to do that, because once they do, then it like, then it's game over in a way that, in a way that most folks in this country don't have any framework for yeah, um and so and so, in thinking about what it's like, I mean this is, I mean my word to the people of god is, is, is constant. Our responsibility is to be the people of god in the midst of the kings of the world.

Speaker 2: 47:36

And the expectation this is why it's great to preach through the book of revelation, because the expectation is, is suffering, yep, the expectation is that if I, if I seek to love and protect my neighbor, it's gonna be on, it's gonna be on. It's gonna be uncomfortable, um, it's gonna mean there are gonna be some things I'm gonna have to learn. There are. There are likely gonna be some things I'm gonna have to lose, like all those things. Yeah, all those things are there. So we, so we've just got it. We, we have to, we have to prepare and prepare the people. Prepare the people for the way, for the way of, for the way of love and the way of the cross yeah, and then this is the.

Speaker 1: 48:12

The point made this past sunday for palm sunday is that jesus did come to reign, he did come to be the king, but him coming in on a donkey was to subvert their expectations of how he would reign. And the people are waving the palms, thinking you know, this is the brutal uprising taking over Rome here. And he didn't. We emphasize that. He did come to subvert that way of thinking. And so he does come on a donkey, he does come humble, he does come gentle, but he still does subvert the authorities.

Speaker 1: 48:51

And that's the point I, I, I, I, I tried to make if I, you know, hopefully made that Jesus does subvert the authorities. He does upend them through suffering, though, and that's just like the. The uncomfortable part is he does do that, I through suffering, though, and that's just like the. The uncomfortable part is, yeah, he does do that. I mean he.

Speaker 2: 49:13

He robs them of all their power on the cross, yep, but he still robs them of their power, yep, and that's the that's the, the heart behind that non-violent resistance um, yeah and so um and because one of the primary ways I said the primary way that authoritarianism rules is through fear, yeah, you know, particularly fear of of death, but also fear of of just loss of anything. And so, you know, I, I, just, I really do think it is very, very important that Christian communities be fearless communities, because we are the, we are the only we are the only ones that have adequate reason not to fear.

Speaker 2: 49:50

Yep, yep. It's what easter is about. It's about the fact that, in the death and resurrection of christ, christ has actively defeated death, sin, the devil, ma'am in the world, all those things. They have been beaten, they haven't been abolished yet. Because when he, because when he returns, they will actually be abolished. But they, but there would be.

Speaker 2: 50:10

I'm gonna, I'm gonna use this image in the sermon, but it's like, but it's like, it's like garbage time in an nba game, the, the, the, the enemy is down about basically a million points and there's 30 seconds left in the game and the powers and principalities are like but we've still got a chance, and we're like no, you don't like and and so, so, so, so, so, when the, when the saints, when the saints are persecuted, when the saints are killed, when the saints lose their jobs, all those kinds of things, it's like, uh, it's like them making, uh, you know, half, it's like the enemy making half court, threes. In that situation, it's like okay, because, well, some things are going to get past the defense, but you still lose, um, and that like that's. That's that my, that mindset of, of, of, of understanding that, like, christ has won.

Speaker 1: 51:00

Yeah, that is the, that's the reality that ought to shape the way that the people of god live every day of their lives, even in the midst, even in the midst of, even in the midst of oppressive regimes yeah and that's, and, and that's one of the things that the book of revelation is trying to is trying to uh pour into these seven asian churches that are facing roman persecution yeah, but I do think it's, I still think I, I want to, I want to get there, but I do think what I, I, I've, I've found comforting is we have a whole book called lamentations. Um, we have psalms that are weeping, crying, crying out where are you, oh Lord? And so if you're in a spot where you feel like just that utter dread and despair, I don't necessarily think it's wrong to lament.

Speaker 1: 52:01

In fact, I think that's the right thing to do. Let me just read a little bit from think about one person in the book of the Bible that, besides Jesus, who experienced such horrors throughout his life, and I think of Job.

Speaker 2: 52:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:20

And just Job 3, he says After this, job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth. He said May the day of my birth perish. And the night that said A boy is conceived, that day, may it turn to darkness. May God above not care about it. May no light shine on it. May gloom and utter darkness claim it once more. May a cloud settle over it. May blackness overwhelm it that night. May thick darkness seize it. He just goes on just saying like I wish I was never born.

Speaker 1: 52:55

You know verse 11,. Why did I not perish at birth and die as I came from the womb? Oh golly, like he hates that he was born into this life. Why is light given to those in misery and life, to the bitter of soul and to those who long for death that does not come, who search it for for it more than a hidden treasure, who are filled with gladness and rejoice when they reach the grave? Why is life given to a man whose way is hidden, whom God has hedged in, for sighing has become my daily food and groans pour out like water. What I feared has come upon me and what I dreaded has happened to me. I have no peace, no quietness. I have no rest, but only turmoil.

Speaker 1: 53:55

And weirdly, reading these passages in scripture, I think give us hope, because we find that it acknowledges there are some seasons of life that are just so dark and feel so hopeless, and it's just acknowledging that we're not trying to plaster over how bad it actually is. As Malcolm said earlier, we should fear what's happening right now. Um, but these, these prayers, it's okay to pray our darkness to god, that we struggle to god in this, um, and we don't. We don't have to like talk ourselves up and say like no, no, it's gonna be fine, it's gonna be fine, it's gonna be fine, like to be fine. I think hope is saying I have a confident conviction that what is right now will not always be, that what is right now is not all there is. I'm hoping that there is a God who will turn sorrow into joy, and I think real hope allows us to be honest about how bad the world is, and I think we have. Sometimes Christians can plaster over that and have kind of a fake plastic smiles and you're like everything's great Sunday morning, you know, at church everything's great. But I think we need to be honest about how bad it is, and so I think this is where I you know, this is where I talk about.

Speaker 1: 55:06

What can Christians do in this time and I think, malcolm, you know your rights is kind of like the practical thing. But I'm just like I want to say let's follow the Psalms and lament. I think, going now after lament reminding us that it's not going to stay in this dreaded moment that Christ has risen from the dead and we are up a million to three in the NBA analogy here, that Christ has given us victory over the grave. But I think sometimes we need community to remind us of these truths. And so, if you're like I just can't get myself out of bed, I feel so overwhelmed with this dread, find your way into a community or ask someone to help you get out of bed and put yourself so that someone can encourage you, because this is where we bear one another's burdens. This is a burden that no one should be carrying by themselves.

Speaker 1: 56:05

I think fellowship has a way of doing that, and sometimes that means just talking scriptures, breathing life into one another. Sometimes it means doing acts of service that have nothing to. I mean, yes, actively work against what's happening in this world, but also like there's some really good things happening in our communities that aren't in the world changing level. Actually reading books to kids in the community You're like cool, they actually learned that word today. It's a really small little victory. You're like, okay, there is light fighting against the darkness against the darkness.

Speaker 2: 56:45

One of the things and I this is this is why I love you slim, because this is, this is a way for us to uh, we can feed off of each other because of our opposite tendencies.

Speaker 2: 56:52

Uh, because I'm the uh, I'm like the tough love, I'm like the tough love guy um where the but the, I mean I the most important thing that we can do in the midst of fear and anxiety. Because? One? Because I think, because what I said earlier is that it is, uh, while it is reasonable to fear, you shouldn't Um, there are a lot of things that are reasonable to do that the Christian should not do, um. And but the reason is because we're told in Philippians four, not to be anxious about anything, but in all things, but in all, but in all things, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your request to the Lord, because the Christian understands that their entire life is in the hands of God. And and if that is true, we are promised, promised in the scripture, and this is the great thing that I love about the scriptures is that, if that is true, we are promised, promised in the scripture, and this is the great thing that I love about the scriptures is that if something is promised to us, that is something that we can act. We can act as though it is true if we, if we do these things that christ and the scriptures tell us to do, this is we are told that this is what they will lead to. So I want us to actually believe that. So, and what we are promised is that the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Speaker 2: 58:08

Jesus says in his ministry that the peace that he gives to us is not the peace that the world gives. The peace that the world gives is okay absence of conflict, everything's quiet, all that kind of stuff. The peace that the Lord gives is a peace that can is. A peace that the Lord gives is a peace that can is, is a peace that that, that that that subsists through, through whatever circumstance you might find yourself in. That's the peace that we're to seek. And we're told that the only way that that peace act, we're told, the only way that we get that peace, is through prayer.

Speaker 2: 58:40

The only way we get that peace is if, when we face these situations of fear and anxiety, that the first place that we go is to the Lord. So when you wake up in the morning and are struck with that fear and anxiety, the first place that you go is to the Lord. The first place that you go is Lord. I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of this. I'm anxious that this is going to happen. I'm scared for my children. I'm scared for my wife, I'm scared for my children, I'm scared for my wife, I'm scared for my community. All these kinds of things, lord, I need, I need you and I need your peace, because that's the only way, because that's the only way that I'm going to make it through this stuff.

Speaker 2: 59:12

We need to, we, I, I, we.

Speaker 2: 59:14

We need to know and this goes back to the Easter thing that Jesus is all that matters.

Speaker 2: 59:32

We need to know that the only source of life, the only source of comfort, the only source of peace, the only source of power, is that union with the triune God, which, for us, is facilitated by the Holy Spirit, and we have been given the tools by which we can tap into that, that we get into these spirals of fear and anxiety and, oh my gosh, the powers and principalities are so powerful.

Speaker 2: 59:46

All this kind of stuff is because we are not regularly reminding ourselves of what Christ, of what Christ has done, is doing and will do. I want us to wake up in the morning. No, I want us to wake up in the morning knowing that I want us to. I want us to go to sleep. I want it to be the last thing that our kids hear before they go to sleep yeah, that they, that they, that they that they live, breathe, eat and sleep in the victory of christ, and that and that will then equip you to be able to love your neighbors in indefatigably, because you're like, whatever happens, I'm in the hands of the lord yeah, yeah, but, malcolm, fascism is taking over, fascism is taking over.

Speaker 1: 1:00:31

So, uh, I think I'm just gonna play uh video games and that's cool you can play video games too. I will, I will, I will submit and bring it to the lord um, and I encourage y'all to do it as well, if there is.

Speaker 2: 1:00:57

If there is one thing that you get from this podcast, I want it to be take it to the, take it to the lord, because the peace that you actually want, yeah, and the peace that you actually need is not like, it's not something that I, if I say these words to you, you'll get it, or if you read the lord in prayer.

Speaker 2: 1:01:15

If you, if you read these articles, somehow you'll get, you'll get the peace that you need, or if you get all this information, or if, if the government makes this particular decision, then you'll be no, no, no, you won't, something else will happen. But the Lord actually extends to you a peace that surpasses all understanding. Christ, I said, offers to you. He says the peace, peace I give, I give. I give you my peace, which is not peace as the world gives. It's like he is also offering you his joy, which is not a joy that the world knows.

Speaker 1: 1:01:51

So instead of doom scrolling that I possibly partake in, we want to hope scroll, hope scroll. It's not going to come on Twitter X or anything on the phone. That's. That's going to be in the word of God.

Speaker 2: 1:02:07

Go to the Bible. Yeah, okay, pray, take the Lord's supper with the people of God.

Speaker 1: 1:02:11

We encourage you to not doom scroll, but to hope scroll. And that's now copyrighted, and we will get so much money off of this Love that we have a new book, pro-greed gospels.

Speaker 2: 1:02:21

Love that for us, oh goodness.

Speaker 1: 1:02:28

All right, on that note, let's close it up. Hey y'all, thank you so much for joining us. We do hope that if you are feeling a little bit of despair in this present crisis, that you can walk away with some hope. Jesus has conquered over the grave. He has conquered over these enemies and we've seen many, many enemies throughout the history of the church. And we are just. We get to join in this long tradition of being a part of what God is doing in this world through suffering. But we will continue to pray and bring our request before the Lord in prayer that he would do something about it.

Speaker 1: 1:03:04

If you have enjoyed any of this, would you, would you like it? Would you share it? Would you tell someone else about it? Would you give it a review? If you have yet to do that, you know what it actually takes not that long to give a review, and it's actually. Did you know that was free, malcolm Free. It's free to free. 99 to subscribe. All right, well, thank y'all so much. We will hope to see y'all in a week or two, hopefully not a month.

Speaker 1: 1:03:29

Maybe, yeah, we'll see what happens. Bye y'all, bye.