Speaker 1: 0:17

oh hey, there universe, oh hey, we are, uh, recording live from the new headquarters of theology and pieces down in the basement of where we currently used to be the basement, the basement. Uh, we have a, we have a new recording studio, slash office, uh, that we are. One of us is breaking in today because, didn't we do our last episode there?

Speaker 2: 0:48

I feel like we did our last episode weirdly did we no, I think we did, I think so you're right, wait, okay.

Speaker 1: 0:56

None of this is true scratch that, scratch that doing it live great, great, okay, okay. What a way to kick this episode off. Hey, dear listener, welcome to theology in pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology. The church, the world or somebody has shattered pieces and we are your host. Slim m malcolm oh gosh. And today we are going to talk about becoming gods oh yes, we're gonna be talking about becoming gods.

Speaker 1: 1:34

We hope you're ready for that conversation love that for us yeah, it's gonna get weird, um, but hey, uh, as always, you for uh listening to this podcast. Uh, the best way to uh to support us this you know very expensive work, um is to do something free for us and that's to uh give a rating, give a review, all of those good things. But also, um, we love to engage with you. That, our dear listeners, uh. So send us question. There's a little send us question button you can send those in and uh, we would love to be talking on the things you are curious about um, but since it's been, we're not keeping to our plan of every other week. Um, it may have been a month since the last time that I said we were going to do it in every other week. Who knows how often we're going to meet um, but we're here. You know, malcolm, what's new in your life? One of the reasons we are not together is what, what's going on with you?

Speaker 2: 2:31

Oh, this is my car.

Speaker 1: 2:33

There's a saga, malcolm is being oppressed by this car company who's holding his car hostage. I don't know how this is legally possible. It's true, they have your car. They will not give it back. An uprising needs to happen.

Speaker 2: 2:48

I don't know how this is legally possible. It's true, they have your car. They will not give it back. An uprising needs to happen.

Speaker 3: 2:51

It's true, things are being worked out with the insurance and stuff like that. Oh, you're so calm, you're so calm.

Speaker 2: 2:54

It is approaching completion, but basically, in a nutshell, I am being charged money that I never agreed to spend. I never agreed to spend, and when that and when that turns out to be multiple thousands of dollars, I'm like I'm not doing that. No, so we need to figure something out. And I also want I also want my car back. So are you ready to start a protest?

Speaker 1: 3:20

outside of this car company's facilities.

Speaker 2: 3:29

No, I am willing to see this as a supernatural test of my patience, so the Lord can use it to shape me into Christ-likeness. In the meantime, there will come a point where I will just occupy the office.

Speaker 1: 3:39

There we go.

Speaker 2: 3:40

I'm not going to leave until you give me my car back.

Speaker 1: 3:44

Sounds like a sit-in. Sounds like a sit-in to me. You should invite our listeners to join you with.

Speaker 2: 3:53

If people want to join with me in solidarity and roll up on Waco Hyundai.

Speaker 1: 3:59

Hyundai, hyundai, hyundai. We weren't going to say the dealership, but now we have Hyundai, hyundai, hyundai, Hyundai they've had more than two months. Alright, so the sit-in happens next week. Is that what we're doing?

Speaker 2: 4:14

no, no, I'll reach out, let you know they've got a few more days listeners, be on guard, be aware, get ready, get ready the sit-in.

Speaker 1: 4:23

We ride it. And I've been trying to bicycle more and so malcolm's like, come pick me up and like, well, here's the thing, I can't really see me boosting you across the yeah, the highway on my bicycle. So that doesn't virtual today. Um, malcolm, malcolm, oh man, I, I, I gotta tell you what's up. There are some, there's some interesting things happening in our world. Um, really, I don't know if you know, um, the federalizing of the government, uh, police force, things like that, uh, and and and and and force, things like that, uh, and and, you know, militarizing, uh, the, our, uh, police force is one thing, but now making the military into a police is another thing, and patrolling our streets, all that's really worrisome, but you know what?

Speaker 1: 5:14

it is I want to talk about what?

Speaker 2: 5:16

do you want to talk about so?

Speaker 1: 5:18

there is this story that it just captivated me about operation acoustic kitty. Have you heard about operation acoustic kitty?

Speaker 2: 5:31

I haven't. Oh, what is, what is? What is this?

Speaker 1: 5:35

This is from our our government operation Acoustic kitty. Uh was a uh an an outing by our own CIAia, the central intelligence agency, uh, and it was deemed essentially a disaster, with only one subject making it into the field before the ill-advised and, quite frankly, cruel program was scrapped. The idea was to create a sort of cyborg cat by implanting a microphone in the animal's ear, a radio transmitter at the base of its skull and the antenna in its fur. A monstrosity, in the words of victor marchetti, a former cia employee who went on to write the tell some book, the cia and the cult of intelligence on paper. The acoustic kiddies agents first test was simple enough to have the kitty to go sit near a park bench, capture a conversation between two people on that park bench and report back just because of by proximity. Doesn't that sound like an amazing use of our government's uh, you know money?

Speaker 2: 6:43

I mean, we use our government's money to do a lot of weird things.

Speaker 1: 6:47

Yeah, so now it's operation acoustic kitty, let's, let's get cats involved in with the cia. Uh, so this is legitimate, but the very first cat to do this. Instead of recording the conversation out of these two people on the park bench, the unfortunate feline was instead hit by a taxi and killed hit by a taxi it's so sad. Like the operations failure was written about in a heavily redacted memo the CIA concluded. Our examination of trained cats convinced us that the program would not lend itself in a practical sense to our highly specialized needs.

Speaker 2: 7:29

Okay, Cats are not specially trained for American espionage.

Speaker 1: 7:37

The dumbest thing. The dumbest thing, okay, I'm sorry for this cat, cat lovers, I'm sorry, I'm not laughing at the death of this cat. This is actually, as the guy said, a monstrosity. That they would put the radio implant in this cat for this purpose and then send it out into these city streets. Oh my gosh, oh America, goodness, so dumb, so dumb, so dumb, malcolm I mean.

Speaker 2: 8:02

But just think we could have used cats to topple socialist regimes in Latin America because they weren't fans of American business practices. We could have used cats, yeah, instead of militaries. But it's fine, it's whatever.

Speaker 1: 8:24

Well, so cats aren't working. But you know what is working, malcolm. What's working Slim Flamethrowers. You ever use a flamethrower before?

Speaker 2: 8:32

I can't say that I have no.

Speaker 1: 8:34

Oh well. Texas Republican congressional candidate Valentina Gomez posted a video of herself burning the Koran saying America is a Christian nation. Here's the video. You can listen to the audio.

Speaker 3: 8:49

Your daughters will be raped and your sons beheaded unless we stop Islam once and for all. Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah. We're done turning the other cheek. Remember David didn't pray for Goliath, he killed them. America is a christian nation, so those terrorist muslims can fuck off to any of the 57 muslim nations. There is only one true god, and that is the god of israel gave my brothers a drink up did everything but gave up currently burning a stack with a Koran on the top.

Speaker 1: 9:21

At the end it says powered by Jesus Christ. As the endorsement at the end, not endorsed by this candidate, valentina Gomez Powered by Jesus Christ Powered by Jesus. How do you feel about that? Because the Koran is not the account that we would subscribe to as Christians. How do you feel about that? Because the Koran is not the account that we would subscribe to as Christians? How do you feel about this, malcolm? I can't, I just can't. Are you done with loving your neighbor?

Speaker 2: 9:53

Yes, largely no, no, no. I'm done with the constant taking the name of the Lord in vain. That's what I'm done with.

Speaker 1: 10:02

What did she say? I don't want to misquote her. She said she'm done with. What did she say? I don't want to miss, I don't want to misquote her. She said she was done with what it was. Uh, we're done turning the other. Done turning the other cheek.

Speaker 2: 10:15

We are done, okay, turning the other cheek, because we're done being, we're done doing what jesus said well, david, david killed goliath.

Speaker 1: 10:22

is what she just argued. Really Dude, dude.

Speaker 2: 10:26

That's wild.

Speaker 1: 10:27

Okay, so is this fringe or is this mainstream? She, she, Texas.

Speaker 2: 10:34

Well, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 10:37

She's a Texas Republican congressional candidate. Someone else said she actually was kicked out of Tennessee for being no Missouri. In 2024, she ran for Missouri Secretary of State, finishing sixth in the GOP primary with only 7.4% of the vote. So not necessarily like we don't. Texas isn't like she's like ours, but so there was at least a contingent of people in Missouri that did not find her um persuasive.

Speaker 3: 11:10

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:10

But is this? Do you think this is just a wild one-off, or do you think this is actually the theology that we have to fight against?

Speaker 2: 11:17

I think people are really, I think people are really comfortable with violent displays. I think that that, like, we're done turning the other cheek thing, I mean, I think that there are. I mean, the most critical response that I got to my book was not to the anti-capitalist stuff but to the anti-violent stuff, because we, we have been as much as people have been discipled into a cult of greed and capitalism. We've also, at least particularly in this country, been discipled into a cult of violence and so, um, so in in that regard, uh, it's mainstream, I mean in thinking of, um, anti-muslim sentiment and stuff like that. All of that is also, I mean, for the last 25 years especially, um, it's, it's something that people are much more comfortable with, even as, even as, anti-christ as it is, um, and so like, yeah, man, people are, people are wild.

Speaker 1: 12:16

People are wild out here in these streets in in their, in their mindset, though, painting it in the like the position they would hold that the muslim faith is so dangerous that it has to be destroyed. Is that you think how they would frame it? I mean, she said like they're killing and raping our children um, and they will to do so if we don't stop this and burn the quran yeah, I don't think there's anything about islam that leads necessarily to killing and agree sexually assaulting children.

Speaker 2: 12:52

I think that there are uh. I think there are plenty of uh, especially like white male non-muslims. As a matter of fact, a lot of folks claiming to be christian wait why you got to bring race into this, malcolm uh because, because the because anti-muslim sentiment is not is both religious and ethnic in its in its, uh, in its roots, uh, and the ways that people I mean to the extent that like are.

Speaker 2: 13:24

I mean, I think about immediately after, about immediately after 9-11, when a number of Sikh, when a number of our Sikh neighbors, were targeted by violence because people weren't, because people they. The first place where people go when they want to exert those kinds of violent tendencies is they just go. They go by appearance, which means ethnicity and race, become the categories that that this actually ends up boiling. Boiling down to. Yeah, man, part of it is just there's just this, this, this just violence that just lies at the root of people's base reactions to stuff.

Speaker 1: 14:05

Yeah, I mean that goes into the arguments that are happening all over, have been happening about. Like you know, is empathy a sin and it's like this weak way of responding to the world as a Christian versus coming out hard against these things and like you can have convictions.

Speaker 2: 14:23

I have convictions about what I believe about jesus and I disagree with the quran, but like there's a compassion in a like crisis called us to me I mean crisis called us to meekness and gentleness, and the fact of the matter is that we're we're told you're never done with turning the other cheek.

Speaker 1: 14:40

You're never done like she says. We're done with it, but you can't ever be done with these.

Speaker 1: 14:45

Things like this is not no yeah, I mean I'm not like the uh, hey, I only I'm not saying like we need to be the red letter christians that uh, that say like we only follow what jesus says. Um, because I think jesus and the rest of the new testament and the Old Testament are all intertwined. But Jesus was pretty clear in the Sermon on the Mount and so, like, let the more clear text interpret the less clear text, and Jesus isn't beating around the bush on these things. Like, turn the other cheek Right, love your enemy. Yep, this is yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:25

That's what he said. Yeah, love your enemy.

Speaker 1: 15:26

Yep, this is yeah. That's what he said. Yeah, so anyways, yeah, but it was powered by Jesus. According to the end of that, powered by Jesus Power.

Speaker 2: 15:36

I mean I don't, I mean it might, it's like look it just could be somebody else who just calls themselves Jesus Christ, who is not the eternal son of God Powered by Jesus. Yeah, right Could be. Yeah, that's who I assume, because I'm pretty sure it's not powered by the eternal son of God, second person of the Trinity.

Speaker 1: 15:55

He wants nothing to do with that, so yeah, that's what I'm.

Speaker 2: 15:59

I can, I think, pretty confidently say that.

Speaker 1: 16:10

Oh, I hit our transition music just one second early, because there's one other thing.

Speaker 1: 16:16

I want to say before we talk about our main topic, but it goes in well, malcolm, I just had a glorious meeting with someone who's not giving me I haven't asked them permission to talk about this on on air, so I'm not going to say their name, but this is a an encouragement to you, because they told me to tell you and I will tell it to you publicly on air here. Okay, back in 2019, they were attending one of our Bible studies as a church.

Speaker 3: 16:49

Maybe it was 2020.

Speaker 1: 16:51

And they were at a low point spiritually, not really caring about the Lord, not even sure where they were going to be in life. This person was attending one of our Bible studies in life. This person was attending one of our Bible studies and I think in our times we break up where it was just like a prayer for one another you had mentioned to them. Some of the sweetest moments of my life are when I'm just sitting and reading the scriptures and he said I could see.

Speaker 1: 17:22

Malcolm was genuine with that and I had just not really cared about the scriptures. It was like I have to do this, but to see his delight in it inspired me to start actually wanting to be in the word and saying I want what he has.

Speaker 1: 17:41

And so he jumped into it where he started reading scriptures all the time and now he went off to I won't say his story, but went off and he's in seminary, he's in ministry, like. So you just buy it like this off comment that you're not trying to convince someone to go do this thing, you're just like. I just love Jesus so much and it changed his trajectory forever. I love that. Isn't that amazing? I love that. I love that I trajectory for ever.

Speaker 2: 18:04

I love that, isn't that amazing.

Speaker 3: 18:05

I love that, I love that, I love that.

Speaker 2: 18:06

Yeah, well, I mean it's, it's, it's, and I mean, one of the things that at least I've learned more about in the in the last especially six, six, seven months has has been pressed how, how important it is to actually experience and this and this, and this goes into this, goes into what will what we'll talk about, yeah, but but uh, like actually experience communion with the lord, because people will be able to then sense that it's something that you've actually experienced rather than just something that you talk about. So, like, if I talk about prayer or silence or solitude or the or the scriptures and stuff like that, for me to be able to me to be able to communicate with folks, like no, like this stuff actually does bring you closer to the Lord and it's awesome.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Like like that like that it's. It's not just a why just do this thing? Cause I've got to do this thing. No, no, no, like I do it because because God has actually given it to me as a gift and that it actually does grow me in Christ-likeness and that actually does manifest itself practically in my life and the things that I enjoy and what I prefer to spend my time doing all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 19:18

So that's encouraging.

Speaker 3: 19:19

Yeah, it's encouraging.

Speaker 1: 19:20

That makes me think of the way you just framed that of our elders are going through this book, the Spirit of the Disciplines, by Dallas Willard, An old book but very, very applicable still today. And he talks about how he quotes in the beginning of how GK Chesterton has. The thing of Christianity has not so much been tried and found wanting, it's been found difficult and left untried, which I think is a great, great line.

Speaker 2: 19:49

It is. It's a great line.

Speaker 1: 19:52

And kind of emphasizing the cost of discipleship. But it seems like Dallas's main point here is yeah, okay, yeah, you can talk about the cost of discipleship, but he kind of sets the frames, the spirit of the disciplines, of saying, yeah, it does cost you a lot to follow Christ, but how much cheaper is it than not following Christ? Mm-hmm, whole thing of like how sweet and good it is. And when you know how sweet and good it is to spend time in the word, to spend time meditating, to actually, you know, apply some of these disciplines, you go, ah, this is so much better than the emptiness that I was feeling before this, the, the feeling of like always being on the, the, the treadmill, uh, and whatnot, and so I just thought that was really, yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 1: 20:47

So love it, love it all right, malcolm, awesome, we are going to talk about becoming gods, because this is something that you have been pushing on to me. Uh, of saying, slim, we can become gods and we can do whatever we want because we're gods and I'm like Malcolm, I don't know, this feels rough.

Speaker 2: 21:10

He's been talking about I've been obsessed. I've been more or less obsessed with this doctrine for the last 15 years, basically 15 years.

Speaker 1: 21:19

This feels recent to me.

Speaker 2: 21:21

Okay, so this has been brewing when I came to do my PhD. This is what I wanted to do my phd oh, interesting, I thought it was on cal I wanted to do. Well, what I wanted to do was I wanted to do links between the greek father's understanding of deification and calvin's understanding of union with christ. Uh, because I, because what I was seeing was basically oh, oh, like we're talking about the same, we're talking about the same thing, and so I wanted to do that.

Speaker 2: 21:51

So in the back of my mind has always been this love of the Greek church fathers, but also the conviction that I think the most powerful account of what salvation looks like is uh is when peter and second peter, one four, refers to us as uh, partakers of the divine nature, like there's just, there's, there's a um, it's what the, it's what the greek fathers call, call theosis, which is us becoming god. Uh, in so far as is possible for us. Uh, so, not so, not saying that we become the trinity, that's not worth saying um, but uh, I refer to it in sermons as uh, as christification, as a like. When we see christ, we are seeing what it is, god's what, what has always been god's intention for us to be, and also what by Spirit, god is actually shaping us into. So, yeah, so understanding union with Christ, like not just metaphorically, but in a sense literally.

Speaker 1: 23:00

Now I want to push that. What does that mean? Literally, so we literally deification, we become gods. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2: 23:11

Yeah, what I'm saying is that, and here's the way that the Eastern Orthodox Church talks about it- Bunch of heretics.

Speaker 2: 23:24

I love my Orthodox brothers and sisters. There is a distinction, and this is drawn in the 14th century. There's a distinction that they draw between the essence of God, which is unknowable. Nobody touches that or sees that like. That's what, like when, when, when we think about the father son uh, the father son and holy spirit and we think about the nature that they share, the essence that they share, the godness that they share, that is entirely unique, entirely unique to the father son and holy spirit, um, but when they but the?

Speaker 2: 24:03

But the way that the trinity interacts with the world, it's through, is through's energies, is the language that they'll say God's operations. So when we think about God's, we think about his holiness, his righteousness, all the things that we are told about who God is, who God is, these are also things that we are. So when Peter's talking about in 2 Peter 1, 1-4, when he talks about partaking partaking of the divine nature like what is it that we're participating in? We end up participating in God's holiness, his righteousness, all those kinds of things. So what that also means is that even when we look at, for example, here's the way that this kind of practically plays out, and this is especially true for what a number of Orthodox monks will lay out what people know as the seven deadly sins of pride, anger, lust, envy, gluttony, avarice and sloth. All of these are things that we actively struggle with as struggle as a result of being fallen human being.

Speaker 2: 25:29

Yeah, by the, by the spirit we are, we are given the opportunity to then, to actually to, to die to those things and live, and live to the virtues and the fruit of the and the fruit of the spirit. When we, when we enjoy kind of the fruit of the spirit, but also these, but also these, these, these virtues of humility, gentleness and all those kinds of things, those things are not ours. We are what, what? What we are doing is we are participating in in christ. So so the gentleness that we're able to exhibit is not our gentleness, it's Christ's gentleness. The holiness that we end up exhibiting is not our holiness, it's Christ's holiness.

Speaker 2: 26:17

All of those things are things that we have the opportunity to participate in, and the course of the Christian life, which they'll say is theosis or deification, it's coming to participate more and more in Christ. That then plays out practically in that way, to the extent that, you know, when we die, christ can complete that work and we will be when Paul in Colossians refers to Christ as our life, and when Christ, who is our life, appears and we'll be like him, like we will be like him. What the phrase that Cyril of Alexandria and others will say that what Christ is by nature, we become by grace, and so yeah, so that's. Those are a few elements of what I'm talking about and what the fathers talk about, stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 27:28

Let me read that passage in 2 Peter 1 so we can make sure we're on the same page. So 2 Peter 1, 3, his divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of Him, who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these, he has given us His very great and precious promises so that, through them, you may participate in. So this is like one of the bedrock passages right on this. Yeah, so through these, the divine given us everything, uh, through a knowledge of him called us by his own glory, this through these I'm guessing that these is the knowledge um, he's given us very great and precious promises so that through them, you may participate in the divine nature so participating in the divine nature?

Speaker 1: 28:22

Yeah, and so what you're saying is that Sharing in it it's sharing in it.

Speaker 2: 28:29

It's Koinonia language, ooh, so it's Love that it goes back to. But it goes back to even Christ in his In the high priestly prayer. So this is something. So Donald Fairbairn has this book A Life in the Trinity. The life in the trinity, yeah, uh, it's an. It's an introduction to theology with the, with it's the. The subtitle is an introduction to theology with the help of the church fathers.

Speaker 2: 28:53

But his whole, but his whole argument there, which I, which I think is a very, very good one, is that what the christian life is is us being brought into the relationship that the father and Son have with one another. And that's because that's also the way that Christ talks about us in the high priestly prayer in John 17. He just says, he says, as I'm in you and you're in me, that's what I want them to be in us Like. That's what he like. That's what Christ's goal is. That's why he takes on flesh, that's why he lives his perfect life, that's why he dies, that's why he's raised. It's it's an order to. It's an order to bring us into, to bring us into the divine life. It's why, it's why we were created in the that Adam and Eve actually experienced before they fell, and the whole narrative of salvation is God saying no, like I created you for communion with me, so I'm going to make it happen, and so, but also I mean where that goes in 2 Peter is also important because in verse 5, it says for this very reason and sorry I'm reading from the NRSV but for this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, and godliness with mutual affection and mutual affection with love. For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2: 30:28

So one of the things that it also does is it reminds the Christian of how relentless we're called to be in pursuit of the Lord. There is no, you know, i's no, there's no space for just kind of sitting idly by, because there's the, there's the reminder that, um, I mean the corruption that we face, the spiritual warfare that we're in is, is constant, like the, the. The devil constantly wants to keep this reality out of our minds, yeah, um, and keep us distracted with all this other stuff when it's God's intention that we share in everything that he has. So this is why my new favorite text in scripture is Revelation 321, where Jesus says to the church at Laodicea to the one who overcomes, I will give to them the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat with my father on his throne, with me on my throne, just as I sat with, just as I overcame and sat with my father on his throne.

Speaker 2: 31:27

It's this, it's this picture of the fact that christ's intention is to share everything that he has, everything that he has with us. And I want to take that. I want to take that up to the point, up to the point of us being members of the Trinity. It's impossible, it's obviously impossible and would break the Trinity apart, for us to be in there, but God's intention has been. I created them to bring them as close as possible to me without being me. What, which is what deification is?

Speaker 1: 32:08

um, yeah, so the the idea of talking about this, um it's clear this has affected you. You've um this is not just theoretical but, I find when I think about some of these topics on kind of like the mystical union of Christ, it can feel theoretical, it can feel kind of like yeah, that makes sense intellectually, but I don't find it like going like, how does that actually change how I think and I live?

Speaker 3: 32:41

live.

Speaker 1: 32:42

And I was reading this excerpt that you sent me on Theosis, where he says thus we are finally led to a conclusion which may seem paradoxical enough that the Christian theory should have an eminently practical significance and that the more mystical it is, the more directly it aspires to the supreme end of union with God.

Speaker 1: 33:02

In a sense it almost feels like he's saying the more mystical it is, the more practical it is, and I feel like that's usually the opposite of how I think of being mystical. Yes, how does this become practical? How do you think of theosis or becoming deified in this very practical way?

Speaker 2: 33:27

other thing it's, it's, it's a and and maybe this is a, maybe this is a west thing, that like where, where, where mysticism is assumed to be, these people like like there's a, there's a.

Speaker 2: 33:38

I mean people associate mysticism with people who don't have any yeah narcissism or feel yeah, gnosticism or feel like there's no social responsibility, like these people just kind of go out on their own and do their own thing and that's. But at least, and this is. I'm not going to turn this into an apologetic for the Eastern Orthodox Church, but it's just because.

Speaker 3: 34:00

I've been in it.

Speaker 1: 34:02

I've been in that literature.

Speaker 2: 34:03

I've been in that literature for a few months now, but the goal of it, the goal of it is Christlikeness. Yeah, so that has to, because the goal of it is Christlikeness. Not like this, like a Buddhist mysticism, where it's just empty yourself of everything. Like a Buddhist mysticism where it's just empty yourself of every of everything. Even the thinking about meditation, like our meditation, is not just an emptying of our, of our minds, it's an active focus Like, it's an active focus on Christ. So this is why the practice of so and I'm I'm going to talk about this on Sunday in the in the sermon, but there's a, there's a yeah, so, so in the sermon, but there's a, there's yeah, so there's a practice called hesychasm, which is it's a Greek word for stillness, and there are monks at Mount Athos in Greece where just their constant practice is praying the Jesus prayer over and over again Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And and like, and they pray it so often that it becomes the way. Basically, it becomes the way that they breathe. So you breathe in Jesus Lord, lord Jesus Christ, son of God, and you breathe out. Have mercy on me, a sinner. Like it, it, it just becomes, it becomes a part of who you are. But the goal?

Speaker 2: 35:25

But the goal is not just like the goal is not just a self-emptying. It is a self-emptying but it's to be, but it's to be filled. It's to be filled with the, filled with the spirit which necessarily manifests itself in, in love. Not just a I'm going to go out here and just be doing my own thing, no, no, no, like the Christ has called us to live in a particular way, and that and that way is inextricable from from, from love, and so and and and. Paired with that, there's this, there's this constant understanding. And I was, I was just, I was just talking to somebody at Mosaic about this before.

Speaker 1: 36:05

Like that, like oh oh, internet has frozen malcolm. I am assuming he was gonna say how much? Oh, there you are. Oh, you know what?

Speaker 2: 36:20

maybe you froze for a second. I think you're good now if we, maybe, if we turn our videos off, maybe it'll, maybe it'll work better. Okay, fine, as much as I love you, um, uh, so, so, so, oh, shocks. What was I? What was I in the middle of saying?

Speaker 2: 36:36

you were talking to someone from our church and yes, okay, yeah about, uh, spiritual warfare, yeah, so that, that, that that is something that we and and, and so, even when we think about kind of what, what sanctification looks like, some people, as they, as they reflect on deification and theosis, they, they, they, especially for I think protestants like you see the links between that, uh and sanctification.

Speaker 2: 37:11

But but for me, one of the things I want to press is like no, no, no, like this is talking about union with Christ, which is the whole, like that's the big category and so it's not just a particular step along that process, like it's like that's what the whole thing is, like that's that process, like it's like it's that's what the whole thing, what the whole thing is like, that's yeah, I think I think I was, I heard it in the way of um union with christ is like the, the center of the bicycle spoke, on which all the spokes come out from, and that our union with christ is what you know outcomes, justification and sanctification and glorification and our koinonia, fellowship with other believers and things like this, and then the other way of talking about this.

Speaker 1: 38:05

I'm thankful that you brought in the practical element of this, because one of the things I loved about your book was how practical you made loving the neighbor of actually love is and a reminder of the.

Speaker 1: 38:24

It's rough that this would be the episode that this happens, because this is really really exciting and really important stuff go on, malcolm, go on, tell me what you were just saying, because this is really really exciting and really important stuff. Go on, malcolm, go on, tell me what you were just saying and I'll come back with what I was saying. This is great Listeners, you're getting the best. We will never do a Zoom one again, but turn your cameras back on.

Speaker 2: 38:48

Yeah, I just turned it back on Because I don't like talking to darkness.

Speaker 1: 39:01

Well, here we go.

Speaker 2: 39:02

I, I like, I like, I like seeing you slim, hello, darkness, my old friend, uh, yes, but. But to speak to the but, to speak to the practicality, to speak to the practicality of it, when, when christ is actually before your eyes at all times, you don't have time to compare yourself to other people, because you're comparing yourself to Christ. And so, then, so, then so, and and, and, not in a way that leads to self pity, even though there's a massive distance between the two of you. It's, it's an, it's, it's a, it's what.

Speaker 2: 39:31

So Bonaventure Bonaventure talks about um ecstatic knowledge. That is a, a, a, a, a knowledge and a love that stands outside of itself because it's drawn. It's drawn by something so much greater, so much greater than itself. That's, that's what, that's what a vision of Christ does for you. You see Christ in all of his glory and you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm a worm. I mean, you recognize that. But then you're also reminded oh, but Christ has called me up to where he is, to who he is, and he's actually, by his spirit, actually working that in me. That excites me to then confess my sin, to actively fight it, to love my neighbor, all those kinds of things.

Speaker 3: 40:20

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:23

Dang it. Oh there, you are missing one another. A minute ago, um, I was saying when I what one thing I really loved and appreciated about your book, uh, was how practical you made the application of love and that it was not, you know, like love is actually meeting the material needs of your neighbors. And so, um, thinking about theosis and mysticism and all this that can feel maybe with a Western tint, that it feels so esoteric and kind of just go sit alone at a monastery and levitate into this next level of Christian leveling up.

Speaker 1: 41:05

in that regard, yeah, oh yeah. I think this helps going okay. So deification coming like Christ actually means these different. You know. It implies taking your mind off of yourself, actually caring for your neighbor and things like that. Yeah, like heresies that like typically dance around theosis, or deification like that that people can kind of go like, oh, you stray too far into this, you might become one side or the other of this. You know these two gutters on each side of this.

Speaker 2: 41:43

I think what people are most afraid of is that, at least theologically, they're afraid that it, you know, blurs the creator creature distinction.

Speaker 2: 41:51

Yeah, and my thing is, like you do, I mean one thing that I recognize is that, like, look, the, the church fathers are actually a lot smarter than me, wow, and and they, well, I mean, I just I, I think that, but, but also I mean like they were more committed to the creator creature distinction. That I think a lot of people, even today, are Um, and this was, and, and all these things were thought through in the context of the, of the scriptures and the uh, and the tradition of the church, and so like, so, so the, they, they and so like, so, so, the, they, they were also just absolutely floored by the work that christ, by just the work that christ did, like, just, I mean, I mean the incarnation and all of its ridiculousness, the fact that, um, I mean cyril, cyril really pressed into this, fact that, like, our faith is rooted in the claim that God died, which is insane yeah but, and not just that he died, but that he chose to do that.

Speaker 2: 43:08

He chose to do it because he, because he's, it's it, um, the way that um fairbairn does in this book is it's, it's. It's basically like okay, like the, the god, the godhead, saw that the only way, the only way for our corruption to be dealt with, would be for all of us to die yeah yeah and so and so that, and that was well, I don't want to.

Speaker 2: 43:37

Basically I don't, I don't want that to happen. So somebody needs to like, somebody needs to take their place, and I can't like god's like. I can't, but but I could if I take on their humanity. And so the fact that, like, even just the fact that the incarnation happens so that God can suffer, is absolutely insane to me. Besides the fact that he actually does and dies, the fact that that decision is made so that we could be brought into union with him. There is no. That's why the scriptures say there's no greater love than that, and that that's definitionally that we're told in the scriptures that, definitionally, that's what love is that God sent his son to die to, to die for us.

Speaker 3: 44:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:37

So like. So part of it is just is taking that really really seriously and and considering, like, what are the means that God has given us to be a part of that, to to be a part of that love and to exhibit that love to the world around us? And that's how we're supposed to be, that's how the world is supposed to know us. The world is supposed to know us by our love for one another. But we can only express that love if we have shared in that love that the Father and the Son have, so that we can then, out of that overflow, show it to those around us.

Speaker 1: 45:12

Yeah, some of this sounds just that we can then, out of that overflow, show it to those um, to those around us. Yeah, yeah, I mean, some of this sounds just natural. Uh, no, duh, um, amen. I'm trying to think of like, but the early church was was wrestling with these um heresies around this concept of.

Speaker 2: 45:31

Now you froze on me oh can you hear me now? And I lost everything. Yeah, I can hear you now All right.

Speaker 1: 45:39

The early church was wrestling and fighting against lots of different heresies, whether it's Aaronism, Nestorianism, Apollinarianism, Monophysite, Monothelites. There's so many versions of like things, to argue against that? Do you I mean of all of these ones maybe I've listed, or others do you think there's modern versions of this that we still struggle with? Or do you feel like we've nailed it, we've figured it out, we've got it? Or do you think there's still some of these things that you know we have to still kind of push against?

Speaker 2: 46:11

oh yeah, I mean I think all those heresies are still, are still present, uh, but because people don't, because most folks don't don't don't have that background of the early church, people don't, people don't recognize that, like your mistakes have already been made and the church has already responded to them, and so like, like, the eternal sober, the eternal subordination of the sun, type conversations yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, um and um. So uh, I know caitlin, caitlin chess just did a.

Speaker 2: 46:44

They did a holy post thing um one of the one of her getting schooled with caitlin, chess things on um, uh, on the cry of dereliction oh, I didn't hear that there it is on, uh, but it was on the.

Speaker 2: 46:58

It was on the cry of dereliction, when, when, when, when jesus cries you know, my, my god, my god, why have you, why have you forsaken me? Yeah, um, and and in talking about the not only the trinitarian heresies that people get into when they say things like the Father forsook the Son as Son and the Trinity is broken, they're like, if you break the Trinity, you break reality. So you just can't do that, and that's something that the church has been very, very consistent about.

Speaker 2: 47:30

And that's something that the church has been very, very consistent about, but also I mean the misinterpretation of when you hear Jesus talk about his own will in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he says, not my will, but yours be done, and people misinterpret that to think that it's a distinction between the son's will and the father's will. Like no, no, that's a heresy, like all these things are very old heresies, um, and thankfully, since I spent all my all this time with the early church, I can note those things as old people.

Speaker 2: 48:04

You're not. You people have had 2 000 years to make these mistakes. Most of them have already been made. Yeah, yeah, um, so, um, but.

Speaker 2: 48:15

But there's also the fact that and this is this was in that page that I sent you from vladimir losky's book um, uh, the mystical theology of the of the eastern church, um, that, as the church is kind of clarifying their views of both the Trinity and the person of Christ, there's something to protect.

Speaker 2: 48:39

If you understand Christ to, for example, only have one will as opposed to two, you place him out of reach, because if the only will that Christ has is the divine will, that creates a gulf of separation between us and Christ, because we have no framework for that.

Speaker 2: 49:11

Instead, what the church instead presses and this is why diothelitism, the two wills of Christ is we have no framework for that. Instead, what the church instead presses, and this is why diothelitism the two wills of Christ is one of my favorite Christological doctrines, because what it teaches us is that the life of Christ is a completely human life, lived in submission to the divine will, and that is what a truly human life lived in submission to the divine will and that is what a truly human life is and that is and that is and that and that is also the particular life that we, as christians, are called to in union with, in union with christ. No, and we see that particular life when we see christ go through his life, um, and in many ways, that's the, it's the, it's the culmination, it's. It's in many ways, kind of the culmination of ecumenical conversations about, about the person of christ, because it's, it's that like, that's the, that's the high point, um, yeah, but, yeah, but anyway, sorry, I want a monologue.

Speaker 2: 50:08

I mean, I will love monologuing you. That's glorious.

Speaker 1: 50:14

Malcolm, I hope people can appreciate that you have and it comes out in your book we just referenced earlier you have the ability to wade into these lynchings and then you can go into Greek Orthodox fathers and you can go into, you know, whatever comment, you know current event of the day, that it's just like, goodness gracious, uh, and I think people get shocked when they're like what you, you love, the, that brand of theology as well. Uh, given your emphases, um, and I, that comes brand of theology as well, given your emphases, and it comes out so, anyways, I hope people are appreciative of that. If you were to help someone today, you know, like for an ordinary believer to pursue theosis in their daily practice, beyond the theological debate, what would that look like? Ooh, Um.

Speaker 1: 51:12

Hmm, is that join a monastery?

Speaker 2: 51:17

no, because you don't, because you don't have to, because you don't have to do that. Once again, at least, are you know, our brothers and sisters in the east will just say that it, like this, is just what the christian life is um, it, it's, it's a, it's, it's christ, it's christification, um, and so I mean, I, I think the place to start is always, I think the place to start is just always prayer. So it and like, how do you start your day? Do you? Do you start your day with the prayer lord? Whatever comes my way today, use it to make me like christ, like to, just to have that at the forefront of your mind at all times, because that's what god's actual intention for you is. Yeah, like, totally, if you have, you want it. We're told this is in, is it? It's either first, second thessalonians, but like this. This is in. It's not in 1st or 2nd Thessalonians, but like this is God's.

Speaker 1: 52:15

For your sanctification. Yeah, as he freezes, oh Lord, oh Lord, be gracious. Well, dear listener, we hope this conversation has been not only frustrating because of the gaps of Internet availability, but also enlightening and encouraging to you. We are going to do better. That's going to be the mantra of Mosaic or of Theology Pieces. Do better, that's what Malcolm and I will say to one another. Um, do better, uh, and so we're gonna wrap this up as we are missing out on the end of this. But, um, yes, as always, if you have, uh enjoyed oh there you are completely yeah

Speaker 1: 53:09

I was wrapping it up. I was about to just decide off Welcome back.

Speaker 2: 53:14

Oh man, Isn't that great. Look, we'll do a part two where I can actually be in person and we can Any last words before we all die.

Speaker 2: 53:28

I was just. What I was saying before is that prayer is a wonderful place to start, so it's just to be reminded every day that God's intent is to shape you into Christ-likeness every day of your life Like that's what it's about and really as much as possible, to be constantly overwhelmed by who Christ is and what he's done. Really as much as possible, to be constantly overwhelmed by who Christ is and what he's done, and let that not, and let that then spur you onward in your constant pursuit of him.

Speaker 1: 54:00

So become a God by praying. I had to make it there, yeah, well, because it happens through communion with the triune God.

Speaker 2: 54:16

Yeah, and we've been, and we've been given some reason like and I, as I try to tell the church, like you, you act out of that, you act out of that prayer, like it's that, it's that, that that's the way, that, then the spirit, that's the way that, then the spirit, that's the way that then the spirit fuels you to then be able to live a life of obedience.

Speaker 1: 54:43

Love it, love it. Well, hey, dear listener, sorry we had all the technical difficulties. We promised to do some edits as, as I was saying while you were gone, malcolm, one of the things we say to one another is do better. So we're going to do better and we will be with you again another time in person. But if you have found any of this helpful, give it a rating, get a review, share this with someone, tell someone the heresy about how we are telling everyone that you can become gods and yet also not heresy. So it's wonderful to think about it that way. All right, malcolm, I'll see you soon. Love y'all. Talk to you later.

Speaker 2: 55:24

See ya, thank you.