SPEAKER_02: 0:17

What's up, Malcolm? Oh hey. Hey there, dear listener. Sometimes I want to get on here with this killer soundtrack and just drop a few lines.

SPEAKER_00: 0:26

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02: 0:27

But then I know my place in the world, and I've not been given the gift.

SPEAKER_00: 0:30

I I I would not emotionally support you with the case. But I'll be honest.

SPEAKER_02: 0:34

Every time I hear it, I'm tempted just to be like, let's go!

SPEAKER_00: 0:37

Oh boy. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02: 0:39

You guys do that? You like think you're a good singer, and then you hear yourself? I I don't. I'm just gonna put the swings back up. You didn't hear it, but Malcolm said yes. I completely agree with that. Is that what I said? Is that what I said? Malcolm actually does have a good voice, so hi everybody.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03

We've we've we've missed you. Know how we say that we're gonna do this like regularly and then things happen. It's just, you know, life.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10

Yeah. I got sick last week, so sorry y'all. Um, but welcome to the Theology in Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your host, Slim and Malcolm. And today we're gonna talk with one Caleb Campbell, and we're gonna talk politics.

SPEAKER_00: 1:27

Dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28

You know, what what what what's the easiest thing we can discuss?

SPEAKER_00: 1:32

Dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_02: 1:36

I had to add to your Yeah, I mean that's fair. Yeah. Um That's fair. So yeah, we're gonna talk some politics. Um light stuff. Um if what was wild is last week's um last week, um three weeks ago episodes, uh, we had just finished recording, and that's when uh we we turned off the um you know we turned off the recording and then Malcolm picked up his phone he said, Oh my goodness. And that's when we heard about the Charlie Kirk shooting.

SPEAKER_00: 2:04

Oh right. Isn't that wild? Right. That was three weeks ago.

SPEAKER_02: 2:07

So we were we were we were uh right in there. We're gonna talk a little bit about that a little bit later.

SPEAKER_00: 2:11

Oh, are we?

SPEAKER_02: 2:15

As you uh for your first time listener, Malcolm um and I do so much preparation for this podcast. Um I I do some. Um Malcolm, part of his contractual agreement.

SPEAKER_00: 2:26

Part of my contractual agreement to do this podcast is that I don't do any prep for it. Yeah, yeah, so keep that in mind when you listen to every past episode, is that I I did no prep for any of those episodes.

SPEAKER_02: 2:37

So he really doesn't know what's coming.

SPEAKER_00: 2:39

No idea.

SPEAKER_02: 2:40

Um, but you do. Um because you've got you guys have been listening faithfully. So thank you for all of our uh uh all all ten of you of our listeners. Um I think we might have maybe that.

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

We appreciate each and every one of you.

SPEAKER_02: 2:51

Maybe more. Um but uh we thank you for all the all the way you you listen, you rate, review, and uh here is a a a new rating. We got a five-star rating on uh Apple Podcasts from one Nazirite 2013. I like the name there. Uh they say awesome, funny, awesome, deep. Keep up the good work, guys.

SPEAKER_00: 3:11

So thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 3:13

Thank you for taking the time to do that. So we want to shout you out. Thank you for that, Nazirite. Um, if you have yet to leave a review, those do help people find it. And so if any of this does um you feel like this is helpful, we would love for you to to do that. That helps share with the world and puts it in other people's um feeds and the algorithms and all that. Um other thing we talked about last time, Malcolm, um which stirred up a good amount of uh response was about denominations. Yes. Um and we had another good uh email around. Oh, yeah, the questions. Yeah, we gotta talk about these questions. We got some questions. Um, and so one was around the nominations. Um, I'll read that one first. Um says thanks for the podcast episode with Micah Edmundson. It was fun, informative. Malcolm, I appreciate your frequent partition participation in Esau Macaulay's podcast as well, uh, which I just heard the other day. Uh, it's my other recent one.

SPEAKER_00: 4:07

It's my other regular vodka.

SPEAKER_02: 4:09

That was a little more than mine. Mine. Ours. But let's be honest. Um, regarding whether to join a domination, I say, of course you should. Everything Micah said was spot on, and I completely dis disagree with Slimston. Whoa, whoa, this thing took off his argument. His argument about a lack of accountability, and also the antidote about Eugene Peterson fell flat in my opinion. Okay. I take I'll take pushbacks. I mean, I disagree with it, and you've never really given me a reason why you disagree with it. But you can you can disagree. However, cards of the table, and here's where the bias comes in. I have been a ruling elder in the PCA for several years, and at times have really struggled as a black man in the PCA, but does that does not negate the value and wisdom of being in a denomination? My presbytery does hold its presbyters accountable, and the different churches in our presbytery have take turns hosting and putting on a joint service for their particular congregation with the presbytery members. It's been great to see the different churches worship. So my vote is take the dive and join a denomination. God bless you, brothers. Um I won't say the same. Um so uh thank you for writing in. Uh do appreciate that. And yeah, I again I do we I want feedback. And we did say this is kind of not up in the air. Like we're not actually uh having listeners uh vote us on which way to go on this. Um but I I okay, fair. Thank you for your opinion. I I also don't necessarily feel like he made the argument for it, just that he recommended.

SPEAKER_00: 5:41

That wasn't the purpose of the email. The purpose of the email was not to make the argument.

SPEAKER_02: 5:44

Yeah, yeah. Um, but the idea of taking a dive to join a denomination. Take the dive, man. I mean, I'll I'll dive into a pool, but you know, you can get out of the pool. You dive into a denomination. Like, like it takes a lot longer to get to get out of that. Uh like if you you realize like, oh, this isn't water I'm in.

SPEAKER_00: 6:05

This is lava formally.

SPEAKER_02: 6:06

This is burning us. Sorry. Is that just go with the illustration?

SPEAKER_00: 6:12

We did this in the episode. We we did this back and forth in the episode. Yeah. Which, if you want to listen to it, uh take a look at it.

SPEAKER_02: 6:18

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:19

Um listen to it.

SPEAKER_02: 6:20

But yeah, thank you for chiming in. Um, and then we had another uh email. Uh said, Hey Malcolm and Slim. I've been attending Mosaic. Um by the way, if you're just a listener to our podcast, we also are pastors of a church in Waco, Texas. Yeah, that's yeah. The heart of uh of the theology pieces headquarters. Yes. Um uh anyways, uh, been attending mosaic for about five months now. Uh I've read the anti-greed gospel. Oh, we should have that. There we go.

SPEAKER_00: 6:47

I hear it's a good book.

SPEAKER_02: 6:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh no hard, no hardcore disagreements, no reviews that have been anti-the-greed gospel.

SPEAKER_00: 6:56

Besides any, besides just some people getting bent out of shape over the anti-capitalist stuff, but you know, that's standard.

SPEAKER_02: 7:02

You know what's funny? I I was listening to another podcast, and while they were they were talking about like, man, it just feels like all this just comes down to capitalism and like and just greed. And then the other host goes, Yeah, that's Malcolm Foley stuff. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 7:15

This is this was the Voxology podcast, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 7:18

Yep. Yep. I was like, I'm spreading. That was great. That was great.

SPEAKER_00: 7:22

Like a wonderful beneficent virus. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 7:24

Oh my gosh. Uh beneficent? Is that that's a word? Beneficent virus. A good virus. Is there what are there good viruses? Probably not. Wow, we should have had the crickets thing. Probably not. Because there was a di Probably not. That's fine. There it is. Um, all right. Uh Malcolm's googly that.

SPEAKER_03: 7:51

No, I mean that's just all right.

SPEAKER_02: 7:53

Uh, we're gonna continue with this guy's email. Um, I've listened to basically all the theology pieces. Batlog, I went back to listen to the early one on egalitarianism and then just kept going. Uh, one thing that comes up frequently is our fight against mammon. What I want to understand is if mammon is a personal spiritual individual, like how Milton or Dante might depict the devil or even the devil's depiction in Job, or if mammon's uh is a word that we have a personified as a symbol for the greed and selfish ambition that we are called to resist as followers of Christ. So is it is it a is it a depiction or is it actually a demon? Um it might be that explanation is something different, but this is binary but this binary is the only way I have been able to think of mammon. If mammon is a spiritual individual, why do you think he is also rarely discussed in the broader church? If mammon is not literally real, are we who talk about resisting mammon at risk of doing something with him that is like what Jordan Peterson does when he talks about God's existence? In other words, do we run the risk of saying it doesn't matter if mammon is real or not because risking resisting mammon is our goal and believing he is real motivates us to resist him. Thanks, y'all.

SPEAKER_00: 9:01

So Yeah, so uh when I use the language of Mammon, I am not using it metaphorically. Uh I am referring to what I believe is a demonic entity. So this this this and this even goes back to the way that I think about um you know when the so so you know I agree with uh Evagrius and actually a number of the desert fathers when they when they think of our passions of pride, anger, lust, envy, um, gluttony, avarice, or or greed and sloth. Um that those are not just that those that those are not just kind of sins, but they're also like demons that we that we battle against. Um and so and so when so when Jesus names God and mammon in in in Matthew uh uh in Matthew 624, um I take that as uh I take that as a personal as a personal call out. Um I th I think that what the I mean I I just I do believe that the Christian is actually constantly engaged in spiritual warfare. And it's important for us when we when we when we struggle against uh when we struggle struggle against not only our old self but against these particular uh but against these particular passions, I think it's important for us to be able to name them and turn away from them and to understand that these are that that that um that yeah, I'm I'm I'm willing to I'm willing to use the language of the personal and the demonic to to to describe those realities because I think we have I think we have um I think we have adequate resources in in both the scriptures and in the tradition of the church to do to do so.

SPEAKER_02: 10:42

Um could it could it be both? Or is it you think it is it like you know um the Bezob um you know the the name of the demon? Um is it actu so it's actually a demon. Um to me, I'm I'm curious. That almost maybe this is where you you you're you're you you wanna land. Uh that almost makes me feel like it is um more defeatable um than an i idol. Because if it's an idol, that's something that's like constantly there as a struggle of the the old man um uh to be tempted towards. But if it's a demon, you're like well we wanna they are powerful, but they're also very limited. They are not you know equal in power and glory, right? That's true. This is not the you know dualism. Yes. So Yeah, no, I I I Is that where you're at?

SPEAKER_00: 11:39

I mean I want people to experience I mean I want people to experience what uh like what the I mean essentially what the fathers experience in the desert, which is like you fight these things and they run from you. Like like it's like it's it's it's when uh James says resist the devil and and he'll flee from you. I mean I think that's like I mean that I think that's true of each of these it's true of each of these particular battles. Like these are um I think about even um you know there have been there have been times where uh where where there have been particular like sinful thoughts that have presented themselves to me and I I can recognize them and put and actively push them away. Like that, that what is what is going on in that moment, and this is something I um uh the way that I want to frame that is that you know what you can experience in that moment is in Christ victory over the powers. Like you can like that's that's something that you can take that's something that you can taste in union with Christ over the course of your life. Um and it's also it's also part of the Holy Spirit's work of sanctification in you. Um and so like so like that like that's not to kind of draw kind of dramatize the spirit, kind of dramatize the life in Christ. I think that's just like actually what's going on in the life of Christ. Um and so uh so yeah, so I I I have come to I've come to deeply believe that that's what that that's kind of what's that's what's going that's what's going on.

SPEAKER_02: 13:07

Um his follow-up question is if Mammon is that, yeah, why do you think he's so rarely discussed?

SPEAKER_00: 13:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I think because a lot of us well first of all, um especially in current I think in current Protestant circles there's not a well in in some uh especially charismatic circles, there's there's talk about spiritual warfare. Um, but I don't know if it ever gets as specific as um as as as as some of the ways that the conversations have gone kind of throughout the kind of throughout church history, um, where it's not just kind of this abstract abstract demonic powers or whatever that like just frustrate your dealings on a day-to-day basis, but that like you but that on a d that that on day-to-day on a day-to-day basis as you struggle with I said pride, anger, lust, envy, gluttony, avarice, and sloth, that that what that is is um at root uh a battle that you need. Um I mean you use the we I mean you use the weapons of of of prayer, of fasting, of all of all of all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit to actually uh to actually live the life that Christ has called us to live. I think um I just think people get antsy about the language of spiritual warfare just just in just in general.

SPEAKER_04: 14:26

Um I mean let me think of others, some some other reasons, some other reasons why.

SPEAKER_00: 14:35

Um I mean I assume it's probably just unfamiliar for people too. Uh and so part of this comes from I was I was talking to um the college group at our at our church about about fasting last last night. And um and one of the questions that they asked was like why why are these specific like ascetic disciplines, why why are they kind of looked down upon in um in Protestant circles? And and and for well well they said why do we look down on it? And I'm like, well part of it is part of it is I think a Protestant thing where in in in a in kind of an anti-Catholic reaction you frame a lot of the a lot of the what whether it's the things that the monks do or the things that the mu that the nuns do, you frame it as either superstitious or um kind of part of this broader theology of merit. And neither of those things people want to have anything to to to do with. Um but the practices of prayer, fasting, giving to the poor, solitude, silence, all those kinds of things, those things are good things to do, regardless of whether they contribute to a theology of merit or whatever. There's a long history in the church of of us doing those things and not linking it to any kind of understanding of merit. It's just like this is how we commune with the Lord.

SPEAKER_04: 15:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:55

Similarly, the history of um uh of spiritual warfare and stuff, it's not it's not super it's not superstitious. Like for I mean, for me, it's like you we have people who in the fourth century and following like went out into the desert and tell of their experiences of like fighting demons. Like that's I I mean like you could like you can say that they're delusional and stuff, but like, but that's not that but that's not the way that I um that's not the way that I've come to understand it. That's not the way that uh much of the Christian tradition has come to understand them. They're like, no, no, no, like they when they separated themselves from specifically the distractions of the city, they came under a certain they came under a different kind of attack. Um they're like people are facing these kinds of temptations in the in the city too. Um, but when there's nothing else, that that those those battles get sharper. Um and so I want us to be able to learn. I want us to be able to learn from those folks too.

SPEAKER_04: 16:50

Good. That's good.

SPEAKER_02: 16:53

Well I hope that uh that hope that helps us uh as we think about these. It's an ongoing conversation. Yeah. Um I mean I think that's that was a great question because I was the one I'm like, hmm, I I have thought about that as well. Whether it's the demon or it's the the entity uh or it's the um yeah, the the idol or or whatnot.

SPEAKER_00: 17:13

So it's good. I'll say this other thing. Like, I mean, because we also want to take Paul seriously when he says we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities and spiritual forces of darkness in the heavenly places. Yeah. And so then it's so then it's important that if we if we understand our life as that battle, it's important for us to name what those enemies are and who those enemies are. Uh because what we're very clear about is that our enemies are not each other. Um and and but but but we know we're we know we're under attack. And so um and and and we often uh kind of aim our weapons of warfare against against each other rather than against those whom those weapons of warfare are actually supposed to be armed against.

SPEAKER_02: 17:58

So nice. Alright, Malcolm. It's time for your favorite time of the day.

SPEAKER_00: 18:03

Oh boy. Two tweets. Dun dun dun. There are no tweets that are not terrible now. Like I'm not I'm not even gonna be. Oh. What?

SPEAKER_04: 18:17

I was just saying.

SPEAKER_00: 18:21

The Twitter thing was on. Yeah, Twitter's terrible now.

SPEAKER_02: 18:24

Twitter is terrible.

SPEAKER_00: 18:25

I I I am. I told people I was gonna get off. Like, I'm actually gonna be. Like, I'm actually off now. Are you? I'm going to be. Says the addict.

SPEAKER_02: 18:38

I'm I'm judging that. I'm I have no intention.

SPEAKER_00: 18:40

Look, but there's there's some look.

SPEAKER_02: 18:43

Hey, hey, hey. I can quit any I can quit anytime I want. I just don't want to. Um no, Twitter's great. Uh you should all consider it uh for your daily devotionals.

SPEAKER_03: 18:54

Uh gross.

SPEAKER_02: 18:56

Um hey Malcolm. Yes, sir. Did you hear the Lord's Prayer?

SPEAKER_00: 18:59

Um my goodness.

SPEAKER_02: 19:01

Let's start over. Our Father. Who art in heaven? I gotta pause here. So we have this from this is from our secretary of the. No, we are not, we are not condoning this. Um, it is the Lord's Prayer, which is not blasphemy. Um, but it is when it's said in the spirit. This is probably the most disgusting um you know distortion of scripture. Uh that is, I mean, it's just like if you could not pick something that's more anti-Christ um in the way that um our Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth, has created this uh this video to inspire the troops. Um, and so it's with the Lord's Prayer in the background. So in saying our Father who are in heaven, he's praying on um uh with some military uh folks in the background. Hallowed be thy name. Now guns and missiles are shining. Thy will be done. Team fighter jets, tanks, people jumping out of planes, our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses. As we forgive those who trespass. Storming the beaches.

SPEAKER_00: 20:12

Don't, I don't, I don't want to hear this.

SPEAKER_02: 20:15

This is what see I deliver us from evil. No.

SPEAKER_00: 20:19

Okay. I feel the same. Yeah. I feel the same way when the the Lord in in Isaiah 1 15 to 17 says, When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you. Even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood. Wash and make yourself clean, take your evil deeds out of my sight, stop doing wrong, learn to do right, seek justice, defend the oppressed, take up the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow. Spend your time doing that as opposed to doing these uh public displays of prayer that are really just justifications of of militarism.

SPEAKER_02: 20:51

Yeah. I mean to just tie the Lord's Prayer with our military going out and and you know, saying like like thy kingdom come when you are sp literally trying to take over other people's kingdoms. Um you say, well, no, it's God's kingdom coming on earth. It's clearly you're you're conflating God's kingdom with your kingdom.

SPEAKER_00: 21:20

As though the Lord wants America to succeed in its military endeavors.

SPEAKER_02: 21:24

Like we're praying with like bombs and weapons and and and guns that are going to kill.

SPEAKER_00: 21:31

I'm already on public, I'm already on public record in being uh in being uh explicitly anti-violence. So this is a very obvious very obvious disconnect.

SPEAKER_02: 21:43

It's rough. It's rough. So um anything uh anything red redem redeeming about that, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_00: 21:52

No, it's blas it's blasphemy against the Lord. I mean, I mean I mean it's I I it's just I uh yeah, I mean my my my prayer my prayer uh is just that the Lord would have mercy on those who uh disrespect his name. Yeah and his commands in the name of uh we're gonna talk with we're gonna talk with Caleb in a minute.

SPEAKER_02: 22:21

Like if if people are gonna say like you weren't speaking like this with our last um president or w whatnot, but nobody's ever done stuff like this before. And this is this is our not just Secretary of State or Defense, Secretary of War now who is aligning Christian values with what our government's doing. And so I'll call that out. I I uh happily call that out if that's coming from the democratic president, uh Democratic Party as well. It's I mean it's like the epitome of like stop stop putting God's name on on these things. Like you cannot sign God's name on these bombs and these bullets and say like this is this is God's kingdom.

SPEAKER_00: 23:06

I was talking to Jake and I was he was like this is like Holy Roman Emperor, it was like Holy Roman Emperor stuff, where like you're claiming to be put in charge of both the state and also uh in a sense, in a sense, the church, or at least the Christian community, saying that this is the state is actually just going to become an an an extension of the Christian community or whatever. Um which is part of I mean Hegess's own own kind of history that I mean we'll talk about we'll we'll talk about whatever whatever Christian nationalism is, we'll talk we'll talk about it with uh with our guest.

SPEAKER_02: 23:42

But I am um yeah, so that was that was a little rough.

SPEAKER_00: 23:48

Little little rough.

SPEAKER_02: 23:50

That was rough.

SPEAKER_00: 23:51

A little rough. Just a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 23:56

Just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00: 23:58

Just a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 23:59

I mean So how do we engage with with folks online? I mean, you you're just like, I'm gonna get off Twitter.

SPEAKER_00: 24:05

Yeah, I don't. So here's the thing. I here's the here's here's the here's the thing, brothers and sisters. I say this to everybody who's listening. Um you will have uh there is much that you could be uh stressed out about in the world, especially with the rise of an authoritarian government, all this, all these kinds of things. Uh this could be occasion for uh you know, fear, despair, all these kinds of things. Uh which is why I am so glad that we preached through the book of Revelation last year, because part of it, um, part of the purpose of that book is okay, the churches are going under persecution, they see the emperor, emperors doing all this evil stuff. And then John's like, yeah, actually it's even worse than that. You're also dealing with multi-headed demonic beasts. Yeah. But the comfort is that um God and the Lamb still sit on the throne. Your your purpose always and in every situation is to bear is to bear witness to the kingdom of God. That is the only thing that that is the only thing that matters. I want the I want people to understand how simple how simple the Christian life is. The only thing that you have to do is grow in Christ-likeness. And so if there so these the the the fact of the matter is is that um the days go by, people will continue to do evil, blasphemous things. And we can spend all of our time constantly being mad and upset about it, which is which which also drains very valuable emotional and spiritual energy. Or we can channel, or when we feel the temptation into that kind of anger and fear and all that kind of stuff, we can submit that to the Lord and then ask the Lord, okay, what does this mean for me? What does this mean for the ways that you that you have called me to love to love you and to love my neighbor? Because that is what matters. I'd I the the less time that we spend going back and forth with trolls on the internet and and and get and just kind of ranting and raving about this stuff, the more time we can spend the more time we can spend, um, the more time we can spend building the kinds of communities that God has called us to build. So for example, I think about this with the recent uh uh rapture scare that we had two weeks ago uh or a week ago or only heard about it afterwards. Exactly, right? Because it because every single one, because every single person who who tries to predict the rapture will be wrong. Um when when Jesus talks about his return in Matthew 24, um the the context of Matthew 24 and 25 is like he has all this talk about kind of speculation about his about his return and stuff. And then he goes into uh you know he talks about like who the who the faithful servant is, that is the one who when he returns, he finds the servant doing the work that he called the servant to do. Then he goes into the parable of the talents, and then he and then he and and then and then he talks about the uh the sheep and the goats. Yeah all that's to say, all the time that people spend speculating about, speculating about the return of Christ, speculating about, oh gosh, like we're in the middle of the end times, because look at what, look at what the government's doing, look at what the government in America is doing when you've got when you've got governments around the world that have been doing this kind of thing for thousands of years. But because it's happening in America, we're like, oh, clearly, because it's because the Lord cares about this country so much, the fact that it's happening here means Jesus is definitely coming back. People have done this kind of thing around around the world throughout throughout time. You're not special. We're not special. Um, but but but but but but but what Jesus is essentially saying in those two in those two chapters is stop worrying, be watchful, but stop worrying about when I'm gonna come back. What you need to worry about is being the kind of people that I've called you to do. Spend your energy doing that instead of instead of constantly looking up to the sky thinking, oh, is this it? Is this it? You stop, don't look at, don't look at the clouds. Look at your neighbor who I've called you to who I've called you to love. Look at you look at your poor and needy neighbor that's dying in your midst. That's where your eyes ought to be. That's where your action ought to be. That's where your end, that's where your spiritual and emotional energy ought to be. Um, and so one of the things that uh continues to frustrate I mean it just continues to frustrate me is that how like this is precisely the kind of distraction that our demonic enemies want. Like they want us to be bent out of shape constantly, constantly looking at Twitter and Truths and Truth Social to see what's the next what's the last crazy thing that the president said. And then and and to kind of just run that treadmill. Um, because in the meantime, our neighbors, our our our neighbors and brothers and sisters suffer and we're and we're and we're blind to it.

SPEAKER_04: 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:48

There's my monologue for the day.

SPEAKER_04: 28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 28:54

But here's the thing though.

SPEAKER_00: 28:56

Yes. What's the what's the thing, Slim?

SPEAKER_02: 28:58

I agree with you. Let's stop spending our time worrying about the end time. I'm I'm with you. There are so many, like but the the question, this is what I I I'm trying I'm rest I'm wrestling with. Wrestle. Is what does that mean to love our neighbor? Yes. The one that that actually doesn't want you to exist. Yeah. That's the thing that is going to be They're enemies.

SPEAKER_00: 29:23

How are we supposed to why what does Jesus say about how we love our enemies?

SPEAKER_02: 29:26

Annihilate them is how is what he says.

SPEAKER_00: 29:29

Uh is that is that what he says? Yeah. It might be a paraphrase.

SPEAKER_02: 29:33

Uh so I think we're gonna need some help.

SPEAKER_00: 29:39

Uh I think so too.

SPEAKER_02: 29:40

Let's let's invite our friend uh Caleb on to this podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 29:43

I would love to have some help.

SPEAKER_02: 29:44

Is he here? He he could be. We'll see. Alright, well, we are uh blessed and uh grateful to have uh our dear friend on Caleb Campbell. Um let's uh I'll give a round of applause. Live studio audience here because Jimmy Kimball was cancelled and they all became fucking back, but he came back just like Jesus. Um Jimmy is is as close to Jesus as we can. He he uh is the director of the Disarming Leviathan Ministries, uh, which is a uh a podcast, um, but also training resources, uh as Malcolm um may have said earlier, of the uh the media conglomerate uh of media empire, yeah. But also uh pastor of Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, um which is a hot grant, you know, hotbed for uh a lot of things that you probably are talking through and uh with people about. Um and uh you that began when for you, Caleb?

SPEAKER_01: 31:09

Uh well I met the Lord at this church in 01, came on staff in six, and then lead pastor in 2015.

SPEAKER_02: 31:18

So what was happening in 2015?

SPEAKER_01: 31:21

Well, Slim, let me tell you. I had been uh, like I said, been in this church for a long time, and our pastoral transition was awesome. Uh, my predecessor Rick served here for 30 years and was continues to be my pastor. Uh, and I thought I knew what I was getting into. Uh historically, we had not been uh a congregation that endorsed candidates. Uh, we had we have historically been involved in caring for refugees and immigrants in our community. Uh, we've talked about racial reconciliation as a you know expression of the gospel for decades.

SPEAKER_04: 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:01

And I thought, okay, well, that's we're just gonna like keep doing that. And I stepped into lead pastoral in September 2015, just weeks after uh Donald Trump announced his candidacy. Yeah. And I did not see this stuff coming. Uh and over the like 2016, 2017, 2018 into 2020, I was getting a steady stream of resistance around those issues in particular, with people accusing me of propagating like a liberal agenda, atheism, Marxism, demonic, you know, ideas, because you know, evidently uh racism got fixed in the 60s, and talking about it is just propagating it, was what I was told. Uh how old is this church that you're at? Uh we're 48 years old.

SPEAKER_02: 32:57

Okay, so it's been established. It's you you came in and there is a there's a culture.

SPEAKER_01: 33:02

Yeah, I'm the fourth lead pastor. Uh and I was so confused because I thought, well, wait a minute, we've been doing this stuff. And what I was putting together was, you know, something shifting in the water. Like some like I wouldn't have said it at the time, but there's like this massive cultural shift. And by the time we get to uh January 6th, uh 2021, uh the like we had 80% of the congregation that was there in 16 had left. And many of them had re-deployed to congregations that were actively promoting a you know warrior stance in the culture war, very combative, yeah, you know, dehuman dehumanizing speech, uh advocating for uh particular candidates from the pulpit, uh saying things that that I had not heard said as loud as they were being said, like Christians need to, you know, rally together to take the country back. And then promoting folks who were using dehumanizing speech around immigrants uh or refugees. Uh fear mongering was rampant. And so I did not see any of that coming, and at the same time recognized there were purveyors of this stuff in my own community. So, like three miles down the road from where I'm currently sitting is uh Turning Point USA's headquarters. They moved here in I think 2020, if not shortly after, um, and set up shop and were hosting in 20, the end of 2020, they were hosting monthly Freedom Night rallies.

SPEAKER_02: 34:51

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01: 34:52

And thousands of people were going to it, including a bunch of people from my congregation at the time.

SPEAKER_02: 34:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:56

And that was when I started paying attention to uh American Christian nationalism as a movement, because I I could I started to see how all this stuff that I was getting pushback on was connected. Uh it wasn't a bunch of disparate issues, it was one massive movement that was feeding people a steady diet of anxiety and rage and giving them talking points, and even saying things like if your pastor says the word social justice, you need to leave that church because they're apostate.

SPEAKER_04: 35:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 35:29

And I've used the word social justice since seminary. I learned it from a John Stott book, and I was blaming liberal shocked, shocked, shook to discover that the Luzanne movement was now woke or something. Uh I mean, it really was so disoriented because like I thought we were all on the same page inside evangelicalism that we have a high view of the Bible, a high view of Jesus, yeah, personal conversion experience, and social action to especially with the widow, poor immigrant northern. And I think people started redefining social action as uh partisan allegiance. And so evangelicalism just kind of completed its 50-year shift from historic evangelicalism in America to just partisan hackery, basically. And I just I just couldn't see it. I always just thought, well, that's in the minority, but it's certainly not all of us, right? Like I'm looking around. Yeah, yeah. Uh I mean, I I don't know if we're naming names or anything, but like when World Magazine takes a hard shift and Christian Post. I mean, 2016 to 2020, it was like it was like those movies from the 80s where the protagonist slowly realizes everyone's an alien or a zombie or a spy.

SPEAKER_02: 36:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:58

Uh that's how that season felt for me.

SPEAKER_02: 37:00

Yeah. Yeah. And so you you began in the the beginning of the Trump coming down the escalator um in 2015. Um ten years now. Um you you mentioned you uh you had a eulogy um uh for Charlie Kirk.

SPEAKER_01: 37:20

Yeah, my my tenth anniversary, this the like the anniversary, the tenth anniversary Sunday uh of me becoming lead pastor, uh I uh prayed and led a congregational prayer.

unknown: 37:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:34

And part of that was lamenting um, you know, the murder of Charlie Kirk, who in my community, he's the one, he's the leader of Turning Point USA.

SPEAKER_04: 37:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:44

Uh he is uh purveyor, was a purveyor of American Christian nationalism, uh, had said so and had platformed people who said it explicitly, and I was in the room when they did it. Uh and so it's a very striking decade of my first decade of industry. I think, Slim, Malcolm, I think it's like eating your vegetables first. I think it's just gonna be downhill from here for me because I got all the hard stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 38:15

Yeah, all the hard stuff's out of the way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:17

You know what I mean? Now, like I ate the vegetables first, now it's time for the good stuff. And so I'm just really stoked about years 11 through 20. I feel like it's gonna be easy to get it. Yeah, it's gotta be. It's gotta be easy.

SPEAKER_02: 38:29

The culture is ripe for that to happen.

SPEAKER_01: 38:31

Uh I I just want people to be mad about the fact that there's like guitars in the worship or like being mad about how old the earth is. You know, it's just no, I'm I'm really looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_02: 38:45

So over that one. I'm so over that one. No, no, I want it back.

SPEAKER_01: 38:49

Bring it back, bring it back, bring it back. So I'm give me dinosaurs any days.

SPEAKER_02: 38:54

How did that go? Lamenting um Charlie Kirk's uh passing um at your church. Was that a was that received well? Um, because I think as as we all know, like he's a very polarizing figure. Um, and so there's kind of this dichotomy here of like how you respond to him.

SPEAKER_01: 39:17

Yeah, uh our congregation is all over the map uh by design. So we're socioeconomically, ethnically diverse, politically diverse. And so there are folks in the congregation who love Charlie. Um many of them just knew him recently, uh, like as an apologist. So these videos that are all over YouTube of him like defending the faith or you know, giving gospel proclamations, like that, they knew that version of him. Uh, and so they're lamenting in a certain way. There are others who know him from his political activism, uh, and they're lamenting that in a certain way. Still others who know him from you know a lot of the fear-mongering and dehumanizing speech that he uh propagated. And so they're feeling about that too. And what's also difficult is pastoring this kind of a congregation is and then they discover each other's feelings about the same issue are different. And so now they're feeling deeply about those things fear, anxiety, loss, grief, you know, anger. So it's a it's multifaceted because I I have my own feelings. I mean, in a in a sense, he was a big part of my life. Uh, I met him uh a few times, was at pastors' gatherings, you know, small pastors gatherings with them over the years. So it's strange because he's a member of our community and uh you know a public figure. Uh he did uh give gospel presentations, he also at the same time uh was a purveyor of a uh syncretistic empire worship that I think is really harmful when it gets smuggled into the gospel presentations. And also the uh corporate trauma that our community experiences when they watch a public murder on a screen. And I got doz, you know, dozens of teenagers who watched a man on a college campus get gunned down on a screen. Yeah. And all that there is with that, you know, and uh so the the feelings are manifold, the complexities are it's so interwoven. Yeah. Uh and I've I've just tried to not say much and really spend more time in our congregation helping people navigate this. Uh you know, I've got folks who went to the memorial service and some who really were against the fact that what happened all the most of the stuff that happened at the memorial service, I mean it was at the stadium down the road.

SPEAKER_04: 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:08

Um I think it was like I they because they had overflow, but the numbers are always funny with these types of things, but it was like somewhere between 100 and 200,000 people between stadium seating and then the overflow at the arena. So there's also this like I'm in Phoenix and this is in Phoenix. And I of I know in Utah that that's where the murder happened, yeah. But like it's it's here. Yeah. And I'm also a part of this community too.

SPEAKER_02: 42:38

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the the analogy you used earlier about uh kind of um the protagonists seeing everyone else as an alien, um, I feel like that that resonated. Um and uh no not saying that uh we are always the protagonist of our stories, uh, but um I exactly I I I do think when this happened, um on one level, I feel like the only thing you should we you know we should say is like how you know terrible and and you know harmful this was and just uh how sorry we are for uh Charlie Kirk's family and um you know his his wife forgiving the shooter was was very moving and you know like just like this like let's just sit there with the empathy um for this of saying like this is just so sad that this is what has happened. Um and so that's where I I kind of leaned into um was just like let's just see him as a human being, and that if we want to say we we affirm the Imago Day and every single human being, then like that's who he was. He was an image image bearer, and like that's all we need to say at this moment. Um in the moment. Um but I felt like there was a lot of people um online that were like, yeah, but you know, and and wanting to bring up all the the harmful rhetoric. Um and I was like, there's there's times for that. There's I think there's time for that. I think in the in the in the immediate moment, I think it was it was like just let someone mourn. Like you uh um that I think that's all all we we we ought to do as as human beings there. Um and so that but yeah, we I had some people on on Facebook and whatnot, you know, reach out and be like, you know, now you're saying it this way. And I e even when we we said it as a church, uh, you know, I was all I wanted to say was like I'm really we're we were praying for his family, we're sad for this. Um didn't want to get into it. But there is a ton of harmful rhetoric that he said. Um, and there was a ton of stuff that um and now it feels like he's being um lionized, and there's talks of a statue of a um a memorial. There's always talks of statues. Right. Um and and it's like, oh, ooh, is this who he was? Like, you know, that he was uh he was one of the the disciples as uh uh the 13th disciple, as as some people were saying. Um I'm like, oh, ah, I don't know. This does not seem to be the person who follows Jesus. Um and that's just that that to me is where it's now I'm like, okay, so let's we've had time to grieve. Uh not to say like move on, but like now to be able to say, like, but let's not let's not um re-remember his life um in in a in a new light there. Um I'm sure that's difficult in your community with it being as as integral as he was to your community, but yeah. Yeah, that's that that that to me is the is is a difficult thing to navigate. But then the the the part about the alien thing, I feel like this event revealed a lot more than I thought was um there. I feel like when I saw so many people come out and and mourning it, I was like, oh, I didn't realize how popular he was. I didn't realize how much all of these people were in it. Uh because it he he was the Christian nationalist. He was pushing these things. That was like a where am I? What who who around me is is listening to this? And it seems like everyone was.

SPEAKER_00: 46:09

And I uh I am gonna throw this out here. Uh that wasn't uh that the you know finding out the people around you are aliens thing. Uh I think that wasn't I think that wasn't so much my experience because uh because I'm not white. Uh no, I mean just I mean just factually, like like like my like it's similar to I think it's I think it's in a way similar to the way that a lot a lot of folks were kind of awakened um with uh um some some of the some of the Trump support kind of kind of kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04: 46:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:44

Um just because and we can and we and we and we can talk about this uh too, Kayla, as we talk about the fact that there's an element of the Christian nationalism that we that we're that we're dealing with which is white. Like there are there are there there there's there's there's the there's the there's the there's the fact that there is a there is a ra there is a racialized element to the way that to the way that power and money are mobilized and spoken and spoken of um in in ways that especially in a number of white communities go unspoken and uninterrogated. Um and so so there are things that I in a number of my brothers and sisters have seen from afar for a really long time and and recognize for the toxic things that they that they are, but then for others it's just kind of part of the it's just kind of part of the water. Um and so then so then you so then you have moments like this that then allow it to rise above the surface. And then other people who have who who who are who are who are trying to become more aware of the water in which they swim, they see from above the water, they're like, oh, oh, what look at that. That's that's really weird. And but then some of us are like, no, actually that that tracks. Um and so um so so that so that surprises personally that I kind of like even in even with like my Facebook feed and stuff, because like I know I had I had a number of friends who were like, oh my gosh, like all these people who um you know I thought you know, I thought I knew I thought I knew these things about these about these people, and they're like, oh like all this, all this, all this new stuff is coming to light. Um just experientially that wasn't that wasn't my experience. But um But yeah, these I mean these the this is this has bred just kind of a number of number of conversations that I think are good and uh and revelatory. That's why we preached this is why we preached revelation last year, because it's one of the advantages of un of unveiling. When when when um right before right before the election, uh one of our elders of the church asked me who I who I thought was gonna win. Uh and I was like, I'm pretty sure Trump's I'm pretty sure Trump's gonna win. And we're gonna go in, we're gonna enter into a stage of church history that's gonna be uh revelatory. Like people's people's people people's commitments are gonna be like they're gonna have an opportunity to really be revealed. Um and so the question on a on a daily basis is gonna be for us, are we gonna go the way of the lamb or are we gonna go the way of Leviathan? Um and so uh I just I want us to continue to ask that question and to be really serious about uh you know what it what it looks like to go the way of the lamb, because that's the way that I presume everyone who claims to be a Christian wants to go.

SPEAKER_02: 49:44

That's not a fact was that was that was me trying to chime in here. Um let's say I'm I'm uh uh uh a newbie uh to this podcast, uh to Caleb Campbell, uh, and this whole Leviathan thing. Um you said that word. And I did. And and what is Leviathan? Uh Caleb, why why why why why is disarming Leviathan?

SPEAKER_00: 50:05

We name we name demonic powers on this uh on this on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 50:09

Yes, yes, yes. Uh so yeah, so my book, uh Disarming Leviathan, Loving a Christian Nationalist Neighbor, I chose that title for two reasons. The first reason is it sounds like a heavy metal album. Yes. And I like that. And the cover looks like a heavy metal album. Like it's very you could do a tattoo of it.

SPEAKER_02: 50:34

Yeah, what what what band what band are you thinking right now? Oh, I mean, it really could be uh let's see, like Dio D but late stage black stab.

SPEAKER_00: 50:49

Speaking, speaking, speaking about language, bro. Love me by 80s metal.

SPEAKER_01: 50:54

Uh the second reason is it's the working metaphor, one of the working metaphors of the book is uh recognition that the the powers, so what the apostle Paul calls powers, principalities, rulers, and authorities are always at work, and they're work at behind the scenes. So this idea that Paul could look at like Rome and could see at work not just dudes doing horrible stuff, but a power, a structure, a system uh that was uh beyond the material uh was also at play. And and Paul, of course, is riffing on the the entirety of scripture, which sees evil as a uh a force that is predatory, but it's very attractive. So like in Genesis chapter 4, Yahweh says to Cain, who's meditating on whether or not he should murder his brother, yeah, uh, if you're not careful, sin is crouching at your door and it wants to have you. So this predatory language, Peter talks about um the accuser prowling around like a roaring lion seeking those to whom he he can devour. And then of course the revelation, you have the dragon of the beast. Well, in like the Psalms and some of the prophets, they use the word uh Leviathan, which is uh an ancient sea dragon or sea beast that lives in the disordered chaotic abyss that is a power, but it's an like an untamed chaos power. And on occasion, this power can be ascribed to um like kingdoms or empires. And that helped me to see like the American Christian Nationalist movement is trying to harness the power of Leviathan while drawing crosses on it. And so it's it's this idea of that the power of Leviathan can take manifold forms, like it it looks different throughout human history, it look it has many heads, so to speak. We can go to what the sea dragon uh motif, it's a like a seven-headed dragon.

SPEAKER_00: 53:19

Yeah, it's a hydra.

SPEAKER_01: 53:22

Uh and Gregor the Great in his commentary on Job in the sixth century was riffing on this, and he makes this comment that like the Hydra, uh evil presents itself, the Leviathan presents itself differently to different people. And he says, To those who are trying to be righteous, Leviathan never presents itself as unrighteous, it always wears the garb of righteousness. Uh for American Christians, if evil was just to show up and say, Let's do evil, it'd be dismissed out of hand, right? If a leader, a political leader, got up and said, Let's do evil stuff, let's do greed, let's do licentiousness, let's do murder and hate.

SPEAKER_04: 54:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 54:12

Christians would be like, get out of here. We don't want to do that stuff. We're good people. And so what does Leviathan have to do? Leviathan has to accomplish those ends by wearing the attire of holiness. And so this is where you get um, you know, uh in the New Testament, we're warned to watch out for those who take on the posture of godliness or the form of godliness, but deny the power there within. Uh that you'll know a false prophet by their fruit. Because it's hard to tell by their words. When they're on the stage, they look like they're doing good stuff. But it's that little five percent of poison that they're sneaking in that's the insidious part. And so that that commentary on Job and the the general motif of the Leviathan being predatory, seeking to dominate and so chaos helped me put some framework and imagination around this movement that is way more than just a political ideology. A lot of folks try to distill American Christian nationalism down to its political ideology that Christians should take charge of the government. And then they're just arguing about that. And I I don't think that's the main bit. I think the main piece is that there are hundreds of thousands of people who are terrified of the future. And their anxiety is so sky high that they are desperately looking for anything to solve that problem in their hearts of safety the need for safety belonging purpose. And so they're willing to overlook some of the failures of the movement because the ma most of it sounds like standard very evangelical, what they've been fed for 50 years inside American evangelicalism. And that little insidious trick is what makes this thing so powerful because and it's what we're talking about earlier on on this uh venerable program. Uh two people can watch the same video and see two different things. Yeah, we're reading the same Bible, we're praying to the same Jesus, but some people look at this movement and say godly, and others say look at it the same movement and say ungodly. And the question is, is what do you make, how do you make sense of that little corrupt bit uh that that's being added on and smuggled into this thing?

SPEAKER_04: 56:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 56:34

What's so striking and revelatory, Malcolm, to your point is the little corrupt bit was probably like five percent visible, you know, as a little leaven. Yeah. Uh now it's just like explicit. Yeah. Like some some like the like at the memorial, you know, there were some people who said we should forgive our oppressors and we should forgive the murderer. And then there are others who were like, We're gonna dominate our enemies or we're gonna kill everyone we don't like. Yeah. And so it's it's now coming to a head where it's like, well, which way are you gonna choose? The the way of the lamb or the way of the dragon. And so the dragon showing its teeth.

SPEAKER_04: 57:11

Yeah.

unknown: 57:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 57:12

Which I think is a gift for those of us who are trying to minister to people drawn into this movement, is all we have to do is show them, hey, one message was forgive your enemies, and the other actu the other message was kill your enemies on the same stage within an hour. Which one's the gas wall?

SPEAKER_02: 57:28

And it's to me, it's wild that it's Trump who says, I hate my enemies. And it's like we can like the we can see people turn on different uh people within the MAGA movement, but they will never turn on Trump. Like they'll turn on Pam Bondi, they'll turn on other people and say, like, oh, that was wrong, that was wrong, that was wrong. But he is never wrong in their eyes. That's like that's the hard part. They're like, Well, you want him to be honest, don't you? It's like Caleb.

SPEAKER_01: 58:01

Yeah, at least at least he speaks his mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 58:05

So it's interesting that you name so um it's it's really fascinating to me. You know, you you talk about Leviathan all the time. I talk about I talk about Mammon all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 58:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 58:14

But one of the things you do? I d I do. It's a thing.

SPEAKER_01: 58:18

I have never heard this.

SPEAKER_00: 58:24

But but what you just said is is I think really important to remember that like their favorite weapon is is fear. I'm about to preach this because I because I'm about to preach this text on um on Sunday, uh, when Paul tells us when Paul tells Timothy that the that the that that God's not given us a spirit of of fear or or or cowardice, but of but of power, love, and self and self-control. Um and it just it's it's so fa it's it's it's fascinating to me that the primary thing at root, what gets smuggled in in all of these conversations is you end up people are encouraged to make their decisions out of fear. And that that is also precisely the thing that Christ by his incarnation is seeking to excise from is seeking to excise from us. And yet it and yet it's this thing that just keeps uh it keeps creeping back in. Um and it's the favorite weapon of these of these of these of these uh of these demonic entities that I think we keep that I keep thinking we keep referring to. Um is that something as you think about uh as we think about kind of your own hist I mean history, writing the book and all that where where where have you seen that? Where have you seen that over the course of your over the course of your story?

SPEAKER_04: 59:44

Yeah, uh the uh the anxiety.

SPEAKER_01: 59:49

So maybe I would just uh I would draw a distinction between healthy fear and anxiety. Sure. So h healthy fear, if a bear walks into my office that's that's not supposed to be here. Uh the gift that God has given me is the gift of fear. Right? The bear's not where it's supposed to be. I need to do something about this. There's a common thing in Phoenix. What's that?

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:11

There's a common thing in Phoenix. Just bears walking into the chair just showing up.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:14

Yeah, you never can't. Actually, in Arizona, yes. There's a bear in a grocery store nowhere. So not so much in Phoenix. More rattlesnakes here.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:23

Uh and you know, fear compels me to act. And anxiety is uh the constant feeling that there's a bear just around the corner. And when I smell a funny smell, is that a bear? And there's little debris on the floor. Is that bear hair? And to be constantly in a in a um uh this anxious state, expecting there to be something devastating this devastating bear just around the corner. And that anxiety uh serves well the salesman from Bear Repellent Spray Incorporated. Because if the so here's the deal if there really is a bear infestation, I'm thankful for bear repellent spray incorporated. Yeah, and I would gladly purchase their product. Yeah, but they can sell more product if they get more people anxious about bears around every corner. And this this is that subtle distinction because in like uh I am thankful for certain aspects of the American government because it really is doing good things that are like good. Yeah, um you you take like Border Patrol, I am grateful that the uh drug cartels open uh operate in the open in some of the smaller towns in Arizona because our law enforcement is just overwhelmed by it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:55

I'm grateful that they're trying, and I'm grateful that Border Patrol's on the border trying their best to keep you know that from coming into my community.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:03

And however, that real thing, real threat, real fear, can be manipulated when we use words like monsters are invading, uh, hundreds of thousands of drug dealing rapists are storming across the border to get your kids. Yeah. There's a bear around every corner.

unknown: 1:02:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:27

So it's it's that thing of like we you could take a good thing and just subtly shift it to manipulate.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:34

And if I'm a political leader, keeping people in that state of anxiety so that I can do nothing and present myself as the solution to the problem that I manufactured, uh, I'll get more votes or more money or more power.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:50

And I would also notice, uh, my fellow men of the cloth, that our vocation also engages in this type of behavior. Uh God sees you when you're sleeping, and he knows when you're awake, and he knows when you've been bad or good. And you're going to hell if you don't donate enough money to our church this week for the building plan. I mean, yeah, it's rarely that explicit. Yeah. All three of us know some of the some of the homies who do this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:21

Fear is a powerful motivation.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:22

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Which okay, a healthy fear of God, and this is key. A healthy fear of God.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:29

But notice what I'm doing is I'm trying to generate an anxiety that I'm going to solve.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:35

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:36

A healthy fear of God leads us to repentance and a deeper relationship with God. A profound anxiety propagated by the pastor is. Oh, here's a good one. Uh you know, those heretics down the street. They've got it wrong. Thank God for our church and for the biblical teaching that I give you to keep your kids safe from the clutches of hell. Now, you wouldn't want to leave the church, would you? Because you might end up with one of those, you see, like it gives allegiance, it gets money, and so healthy fear about heresy, good. Anxiety that can be stirred up by a malicious or malevolent leader, that's the problem. And the the the discernment is required. Yeah, I mean, you really gotta pay. Um we really do need a spirit-led discernment. And I think this is why Jesus said, listen, if you like one of the things you can notice is while they all might be saying the same kind of words and using the same lexicon, notice the fruit. Is is the community that's propagating this stuff exhibiting the works of the flesh or the fruit of the spirit? And and so sometimes it's difficult to discern like from the stage or from the talk track, but but you can look at the community, yeah, and are you seeing fruit of the spirit, are you seeing works of the flesh? And in my own life, uh anxiety has been uh certainly a part of it. Uh when I was uh 16, uh I fell with a group of neo-Nazi skinheads and became one. And a lot of people think that folks start with the ideology and then the community comes second. And maybe that's the case sometimes, but that's not the case most of the time. Most of the time, uh it's the community and then the ideology comes second. What I mean is I wasn't sitting around reading like a genetics book and reasoning myself to white supremacy, saying, I I believe the white people are the superior race. I should go find some like-minded individuals to help around with. Uh it I was at a party, there was all these tough looking dudes, there's girls and beer, and they said, dude, come hang out with us. Yeah, I mean, that was the keys to the kingdom for me.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:07

And started being uh invited in, and and it's it's language like this. Okay, brother. I mean, think about how powerful that is for someone who's desperately in need of safety, belonging, and purpose.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:26

Brother, we are gonna stand together and fight the who cares what the them is, because I belong.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:35

Now, at the same time, uh, you know, Malcolm, as you said, like white supremacy is baked into the system. So I I already had that in me.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:44

Uh, and uh 16. So, and I had blonde hair and blue eyes. So to be told at that time in my life, uh, you're the like pinnacle of human and wasn't a hard sell. Yeah, so that's trying to say, like, I I'm not trying to say, you know, I accidentally became a wise supremacist, like it was there, but they were excuse me, they were nurturing something that already existed.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:14

By playing on the my need for safety, belonging, purpose, and the deep anxiety I had that I would live a life of no purpose, no safety, and no community. And all that's at play. And in the American Christian nationalist movement, as I've talked to people, rarely can we have a five-minute conversation about the political ideology.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:37

What we what I hear more of is heart-level needs being expressed and met inside the movement. Yeah, this is my people, this is to whom I belong. We are gonna be, we're gonna protect each other, we're gonna have each other's back against the them. And I see a lot of the similarities in my experience uh as a skinhead in this movement. And I don't mean that they're the same. I'm not trying to correlate the two in that way, but just the way that these kinds of movements work.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:06

Uh it takes real needs, stokes anxiety, and then promises to meet those needs. But the the question that I ask folks is is it real belonging? Because if I understand real belonging, real belonging, one of the key markers of real belonging is that you can say whatever's going on inside out loud without fear of expulsion from the communion. Can you ask a critical question? Can you express doubts without fear of being excused? If not, it's not real belonging, it's a facsimile. And to the point that you made earlier about people giving allegiance to Trump, a lot of that's performative. What I mean is um authoritarian movements like this demand performance. They demand that you fall in line by pledging allegiance.

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:01

And so a lot of these, like, oh, he just speaks his mind things, they're saying it f to communicate I still belong in this communion. They're not saying it to you, they're saying it to each other. Um saying, look, we're all still in the same direction. Yeah.

unknown: 1:09:19

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:20

It's the code word, it's the shibboleth, it's the I belong.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:23

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, going back to you you mentioned like the there's the 5% um of poison that's in the water of Christian nationalism, um, but now it's become like the 100% or whatever, you know, the whatever percentage you want to have there. Um how do you this is the thing that I'm like I'm wrestling with. Um, and I think I think our our world is wrestling with right now, um, is you know, like, how are we going to I mean the title of your book, like loving, how do you love your Christian nationalist neighbor? Like, how do we are we gonna continue on um with people who are not just like, yeah, I I I vote differently than you, I I think differently than you, but now like I don't want you here. Because as and this is, I mean, this isn't like just in one camp politically. Like, I mean, Hillary Clinton was famous for calling um Trump supporters deplorables, um, right? Like they're they're irredeemable. Um, and then Trump is, as we all know, um very, very uh polarizing and calling everyone animals and you know, people who shouldn't be here. And as you just pointed out, that you know, I hate my enemies. Um, and then after Charlie Kirk's death, you know, I mean, some of the things on Facebook, it was just like people were saying, like, this is it. We need to stand up against the left because the left just you know stands for for you know death and killing and and they destroy, and they are a cult of death. And so we need to, you know, like how do we live with one another? How do we love that that person that that uh just doesn't want you here?

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:02

Yeah. What's your thought?

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:08

Well, my thought is uh, and Malcolm knows what's coming next, that you should log on to any venerable bookstore and purchase Leviathan, loving and that always be closing. Always be closing. The the work I do in the book is trying to give a field guide to answer that question because the number one question I've been getting pastorally is uh what do I do with my Aunt Betty? Yeah, she's yelling and screaming at the kids' birthday party about lizard people running the government, and I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:41

And you know, my hope in writing the book was not to argue about Christian nationalism. My hope was to help those who think it's not good answer that question. What what do I do with the people in my life? And one of my key metaphors is uh to think missionally. So I I cut my teeth in like theological development on the missional movement. So like Tim Keller, Leslie Nubigan. And so I've just that's just what I've grown up in. So I've often I I almost always see the church through the missional lens, like the church has a mission in whatever community it's in. And I am trying to apply that now to American Christian nationalism as a movement, is a mission field. So in the in the same way that one might think about going to uh a culture that's different than their own, or a la Tim Keller, the city that they live in, yeah, uh, we can do that to this movement too. And I think that for me has been the biggest shift is primarily instead of thinking this is a heresy to fight, it's a mission field to reach. They they've they've imbibed a false gospel of empire worship and syncretism with you know Americana. And if I was approaching a culture that also did empire worship but didn't use Jesus stuff, I I would think missionally, you know, how do I understand their culture? So studying the culture is the first step. Don't assume I know everything about them, you know, uh spend a lot of time at Cracker Barrel in Hobby Lobby. Oh, it's got more. Try to like try to learn. Uh that's right, that's true. Uh Chick-fil-A. Go to Chick-fil-A. Yeah. Um, and in and out. And just listen. What are their hopes and dreams? What are their desires for the future? What are their fears? What are their taboos? What are their origin stories? What what's their food? What's their music, right? Study the culture.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:46

And then the second piece, and nobody likes this part, it's set the table of hospitality. Uh I have a bit of a prophetic bent. That when I think about Christian nationalism, I want to flip tables so bad. And there was a real corrective moment for me a few years ago when I realized Jesus flipped tables once. Maybe twice, depending on how you read John, but it was once. And he set tables throughout his ministry. Uh, as one author says, uh, Jesus ate his way through the gospels. And certainly there is a time to flip tables. I would just notice whose tables did he flip. His own people, like the the the corrupt people inside of his own team. He didn't go to Caesar, he didn't write he it was his own. And he he also invited some of those that same echelon of person to tables. Like there were Pharisees at his table, there were tax collectors, there were zealots, there were pimps and prostitutes, like all the way down the line. Yeah. And what's striking about table ministry, especially in Jesus' day, is when you invite someone to your table, you're saying to them, you're my kind of people. The other thing I've noticed too is it seems like Jesus put misfits at his tables as a discipleship tool. Like he's so strategic. Could you imagine how uncomfortable Simon and Andrew would have been sitting next to the tax collector?

SPEAKER_04: 1:15:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:27

And then the zealot shows up with a knife. And just meditating on that tension as a key opportunity for discipleship. And Jesus says to all of them from their unique positions, follow me and be like me. And for somehow they were able to experience change. The zealot didn't kill the tax collector. And in fact, it seems like they they both died for the way of Jesus in later life. And that that tells me that real powerful stuff can happen, real powerful change and transformation can happen at the table. And it's also so important to notice, we've already talked on this, this is not a head problem, this is a heart problem. People are not logic and logicking themselves into this, they're feeling their way into it. And the table addresses those feelings, those needs of safety, belonging, and purpose. You cannot solve the, you cannot answer those needs on social media.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:31

And to the pastors listening, you can't do that from a stage. Yeah. It's it's gotta be close, it's gotta be intimate. And so studying the culture, setting the table of hospitality, and then when the heart feels safe, engaging in humble subversion by showing the inconsistencies of their currently held convictions. And so for me, this would be re-inviting them to consider the way of Jesus, like legitimately reading the Bible together. I mean, it's it that um one of the key factors that has empowered the American Christian nationalist movement to gain such a foothold in the American church is that American evangelicals have a high view of the Bible and they don't read it, and a low engagement with it. And for 60, 70 years, they have been conditioned to believe that the Bible is their authority, inerrant, you know, authority. And the way that they discern what the Bible authoritatively says is the man on the stage with the Bible tells me what the Bible says. And the trick of the modern American Christian nationalist movement is they just started putting politicians up there with Bibles. Like I watched the leader of Turning Point USA, a political advocacy program, preach on multiple occasions.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:56

Open the word, the word of God says, let's take over the school board. Thousands of people clapping, praising God, saying amen and hallelujah. So American evangelicalism has been conditioned to believe that the Bible is the authority and then be told what the Bible says by people in charge. So actually reading the Bible. Uh when people get when people go hard on Romans 13, yeah, let's start with Romans 12. Yeah. Yeah, let's read it. And let's let's do that thing. And when you want to talk about the Antichrist, let's go for it. And let's talk about the dragon and the lamb. And yeah, uh, you know, you want to talk about um uh immigration. Let's just Google how many times did the Bible talk about immigrants and how does it talk about like let's do this together, and that can really that can work at the at the table. And this movement will not be um relinquished in by another power movement. It will be 100,000 kitchen table conversations over the next decade. So how do you how do we engage the loved ones in your life? You study their culture, invite them to the table, and then read the Bible together.

SPEAKER_04: 1:19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:19

And I I in the book I give a lot of practical steps for how to do that, but some of us are called to be missionaries, like to actually go into these places, like what I do. Uh many of us are called to pray and pray that God would send workers. And so each of us are gonna have different opportunities. I do think this thing is so pervasive, it's in all of our churches, it's in most of our families. So there's probably a loved one that you have that you could invite to coffee and ask why this matters so much to them, what values they see, and try to connect heart to heart.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:54

Yeah, that's good. How have you um this book came out? What what what year did this book come out? It's been a while now.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:01

Uh uh 4th of July 2024.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:04

2024. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:06

Um year and some change.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:09

How's been the the the the feedback? Have you had uh any any any good pushback? Dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:16

Uh it's done better than Malcolm's. I can't I can't see his numbers. I'm just picking picking up those vibes from the general populace out there.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:35

Yeah, I got a story to tell you about the future of my book, but I'll say that for a vlog.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:41

Many people are saying my book. Many people. No, it's well, I mean, I I'm a nobody. Like, I'm a I don't uh I don't have a brand or a name. So the fact that it's done so well tells me that the thesis, like people are not buying the book because of me. Maybe they're buying it for the cover, which I didn't had nothing to do with. But I think the fact that it hits so well speaks to the fact that there are many folks in America who are trying to figure out what to do with Aunt Betty.

SPEAKER_04: 1:21:15

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:16

And so I'm proud of that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:21:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:19

Um, I really tried to add a pastoral perspective. Uh, I did not want to write a book. I don't like writing books. I don't like writing. Uh but but in 2021, I was desperately looking for a pastoral guide and help for me to minister to my community. I could I didn't find one. And there's a lot of great works out there: sociological, historical, uh, political, theological. It I just was looking for the missional pastoral one.

SPEAKER_04: 1:21:48

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:49

So it's so well, the the pushback I've gotten, you asked if I had good pushback. So the good pushback I've gotten, uh, and and this is kind of in that same department. Like, what would I have done differently? Um, I did mention that Leviathan takes on many forms politically.

SPEAKER_04: 1:22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:09

I probably would I wish I would have added a couple more pages of examples of that because I'm not trying to slam on conservatives.

SPEAKER_04: 1:22:18

Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:19

Um I I kind of left some of that stuff unspoken. And that was good criticism that I wasn't clear enough that I I mean, almost all my examples are towards conservative evangelicals because I am one.

SPEAKER_04: 1:22:29

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:31

I I I'm I'm persuaded to recognize that the biblical prophets are almost always yelling at their own people.

SPEAKER_04: 1:22:38

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:40

Uh as I kind of took my lead from there, but I but I left it unsaid, and people don't know me. So I I wish I would have done that. That was that was really good feedback, and I wish I would have done that different.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:50

Um you and Doug Wilson hanging out a lot these days?

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:57

Well, you had asked about good push.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23:00

Yeah, that was the question.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:03

So there are some um there are there are purveyors of spectacle and controversy who have recently targeted my work. What um I'm really trying to engage it in good faith.

SPEAKER_04: 1:23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:20

Uh you mentioned uh Pastor Wilson. He's, I believe, publishing a book soon that's pro-Christian nationalist. So I get the impression that some of this is about promoting his work. Gotcha. Uh, and it was striking. I mean, one of his things that he said was, you know, Caleb wrote about Christian nationalism. I'm a Christian nationalist. Caleb wrote this book about me. And I I must say, um, he was not on my radar when he was writing this book. And that's not a slight to Doug. It just I'm next door to turning point.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:56

Uh, it's in my that's who I prime. And that and in the book, that's who I use as my predominant um uh counterpart, I guess. Yeah, because it because I'm familiar with it. I don't I don't really know that much about Doug. I remember stuff he did from like 20 years ago with um Chris Hitchens and uh a controversy he got into about slavery with um to be um with gospel coalition stuff. So he so I I was aware of him. I I was not aware that he was a purveyor of American Christian nationalism explicitly.

SPEAKER_04: 1:24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:28

Uh so that's and then he's doing like every other week uh a video criticizing my book. Most of it, yeah, I'm having a hard time understanding what his criticism is.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:43

Is that because sometimes he's saying I'm saying something that I'm not, uh um, like for and and this is a criticism I get frequently. It's like, well, you know, well, Caleb didn't condemn abortion, therefore, Caleb loves abortion.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:57

Do do you want to make that clear right now? Do you love abortion?

SPEAKER_01: 1:25:01

I I do not love abortion. I I also didn't condemn like many like licentiousness. I I don't know. Like um, I don't feel compelled to give my perspective on every culture war issue in everything I do, right in order to in order to prove my other arguments. Like I think that's a guilt by association, yeah, poison the well type arguments that are being made. Um there's another criticism that's like because Caleb is critiquing the right, he's secretly an agent for the left. And that's I mean, I don't know what that is other than slanderous, because if there's no like evidence for it, like where in the book do I promote any sort of I don't promote a political ideology. I anyways, yeah. Uh and that's in like that's I I don't know what to do with that. Um I I I think for good faith arguments, I I'll talk all day when it's when I get the perspective like this is not in good faith, this seems to be about self-promotion and spectacle making. Yeah uh I'm just not sure what to do. Um so far I've just taken the stance of like read the book. Yeah, and discern dear dear reader, read if you think that these criticisms have any merit, you go read the book and discern for yourself, because yeah, I don't need to defend myself.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:32

In in in two weeks, I'm um preaching on uh 2 Timothy 2, and there's a part where it says, keep reminding God's people of these things, warn them before God against quarreling about words. It is of no value and only ruins those who listen. Um and I just I think about that with sometimes of like trying to decide like is is this person wanting to have a good faith discussion? Um, or you know, can we actually seek to learn and maybe um think about things in a new light? Or is this just quarreling about words? And it says it ruins those who listen. It's like this is ruining us. Yeah, yeah. What are you gonna say, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_00: 1:27:10

I was just wondering how much uh what you named about the fact that a critique of the right gets immediately interpreted as you being an agent of the left. Uh in what ways might that also be uh basically ways in which we're subject to the assumptions that that that that Leviathan essentially teaches us that there is even just that the primary that the primary element of Christian commitment is a particular platform that if you and if you find yourself off on a particular element of that platform, that I mean that's where your identity formation takes hold. Like like all of this seems all of those also seem to be elements of the elements of the project. As you were saying, like it's if you express any kind of doubt like you're out. It's like or when we think about what Christian communities are, I mean, they're communities of doubting, weak people who are dependent on the Lord. I mean, it's why we when we when we gather, we gather around the Lord's Supper as people who are in need. Um in in in what sense i i if if people listening are also want to be on guard against, like I said, the m the the many heads of Leviathan that this is not just something that manifests itself in um in American Christian nationalism, but it's like it's also more it's also more subtle. What are the ways that we that we um both as individuals and as pastors can be can be on the lookout to make sure that Leviathan doesn't Leviathan and its assumptions don't seep its way into our minds and our spirits.

SPEAKER_04: 1:28:55

Man. Yeah. I'm gonna tell you about a prayer that I try to pray.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:05

Yeah, and I I hate it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:09

I hate this prayer. I don't want to tell you about this prayer, because then you'll know it and will judge me about it, and I don't like that. But I'm gonna tell you. Great. Lord, what do you want to change in me through them? So whoever the them is, uh the despicable other, the person who's a purveyor of something that you think is evil. And if I'm going to have a meeting with them or a coffee or I'm gonna view their social media feed or whatever, uh Lord, what do you want to change in me through them? If I can't pray that prayer with integrity, then the number one problem today is me. Because I'm thinking of myself more highly than I ought to think.

SPEAKER_04: 1:29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:57

And one of the things that Leviathan does is it published. Up. And if I'm not in a space of being able to learn from those who are propagating ideologies and opinions that I find abhorrent, then I'm probably thinking of myself as more righteous, more won m better than. Right? Grandma used to say all ground is equal at the foot of the cross. And if I can't pray that prayer with integrity, in my heart the ground ain't equal. And so I'm not ready to have the conversation. I'm not ready to go to the social media feed. I'm not ready to watch, you know, what they're saying if I can't pray that prayer with integrity. And that's why I like the missionary metaphor, because like missionaries know they're going to work. Like this is work. And the work, 98% of the work is in me, not in them. I think in a broader, so that's like an interpersonal one. I think a broader one would be is this movement or this community bringing together and reintegrating what sin has torn apart? Or is it disintegrating? Uh one way to maybe think about this is um do the people with whom I disagree still see Jesus in me? Do they feel loved by me even though we have a disagreement? Are are we able to be integrated communally even though we disagree about this thing? Or have I so elevated this thing, this idea, this belief, to where I can't I can't be integrated with them? Yeah. And and and I want to give you know all the caveats with boundaries and abusers and all that. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about in my own heart, a a political ideology, a conviction about a culture war issue, uh, a posture towards something. If I am holding that so closely to my own heart that I am an agent of disintegration where God wants to join together, I am tearing asunder. It may be that the spirit of Leviathan is at work in me. And so this would be, I mean, some manifestations of it, like cancel culture is one kind of um modern expression of this. Uh but can I be so okay, so healthy in my relationship with the Lord and with myself that I can be in the presence of tax collectors and zealots and not lose my ever-loving mind and create disintegration.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:37

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:38

And that work is not primarily in them, it's in me. But if my instinct is to disintegrate and destroy and destruct, then it like because of whatever I'm holding dear, it's likely that I've I'm imbibing that that spirit of Leviathan.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:56

It's my it's my hope, Caleb, that folks pick up your book, implement it, and and in so doing become more become more Christ-like. Uh, because that's as I try to tell the church this often, and every time I speak to them, I'm like, that's literally the only thing that matters for the Christian. You do say that. I do. I'm gonna keep saying it, likely for the rest of my life, because there's nothing that will be able to be presented to me that is better than that. Uh yeah. I'm glad I figured it out early. Um, but like, but but but um but thank you. Uh thank you for your book and thank you for your work. Um also your current work, because you're doing you're doing some stuff, you're doing some stuff currently, currently too. As we as we wrap as we wrap it up, uh what what what what's some what what are some current things that you're that you're involved in that you'd like people to people to know about.

SPEAKER_04: 1:33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:52

The uh Disarming Livine was a response to a movement.

SPEAKER_04: 1:33:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:59

And what I'm trying to work on now is get ahead of this thing cycling back in 50 years. Uh and so I'm I'm trying to be more proactive in the resources that I'm I'm helping to cultivate and curate. And and one of them is a larger project of if not escapism, uh, and if not Christian nationalism, then what?

SPEAKER_04: 1:34:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:24

So especially for evangelicals, I mean uh Catholic social tradition and thought is so rich and developed well. And in the inside of America, especially the African American denominations, they they've they're they're they've got it. Predominantly white evangelical, like theological development. So think most of the evangelical seminaries in America. Yeah, uh they they told their pastors, don't talk about politics. Right. Just focus on the gospel. I mean, you've heard that before. But what that means is we have a generation or a few generations of Christians that are uh have an impoverished political theology. And so they turn to talking heads on social media to get their political theology. What I'm trying to do is curate resources and cultivate um uh methodology to, in the local congregation, discern where you are unified on politics, starting locally and then moving up the chain to federal. Uh, recognizing that a politically diverse, meaning the political convictions are diverse in the congregation can still be unified on like 98% of its social action. Because it's not it doesn't need to be partisan, but we've lost that imagination. So I'm helping to develop like Bible studies around this and um uh hopefully uh like a field guide for how to actually do this with 12 people in your congregation uh and like real practical stuff. I love that is where my heart is. So that's what I'm working on the next couple of years.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:59

Well, uh I I echo Malcolm's uh words um uh in terms of I I can't think of anything more uh relevant right now than uh your your work here with disarming Leviathan and then this this upcoming work. Um just some of the things that you've you know encouraged us here to you know even just disarming versus fighting Leviathan and you know you know setting the table instead of flipping uh the tables. Um just the the missionary posture and the heart focus um uh I think is something we as the church could all um adopt. So thank you so much for your work. Uh we really appreciate your your time and look forward to seeing you at the another conference here or there. Uh connected episode. Yeah. I'd love it. Thank you both. Thanks for coming on. Uh and y'all thank for listening to another episode of Theology in Pieces. Uh, as always, uh the way to help support the work is to uh rate, review, all those things. You can send more questions in. Uh hello at theology in pieces.com. Um, all right, y'all. We'll see you in, let's say, two weeks. All right, bye y'all.