Throwback Intro And Banter

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Yo yo yo yo yo Malcolm, you hear that music?

SPEAKER_10 0:34

I do. It's a throwback. The OGs. The OG is back. The OG episodes. This is like we just went back in time. We got our our DeLorean. We went 88 miles per hour. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

You know what I'm talking about, right? I I yes. Okay. Back. We're going back to the going back to the future.

Listener Review And Show Housekeeping

SPEAKER_10 0:49

We're going back in time. To the future. Welcome to the LG Pieces podcast, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your hosts, Slim and Malcolm. And today we're going to talk about how to reclaim scripture and rediscover its beauty. Ah, but before we get there, uh we have uh lots to talk about. Lots to talk about. Oh. Uh Malcolm, there there's been like the world is abuzz with this podcast with gazillions of reviews.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Love that for us.

SPEAKER_10 1:20

And and one in particular we'll we will use. Uh maybe one review, but we'll we'll go with the one of the gazillion. Uh this is from J Duck Chit. We can only assume this is uh John Sheedy. Uh it title is Learn, Laugh, and Love They Neighbor. Uh it goes into the uh it's hard to see what of the full title of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

But the most important thing is it's a five-star review. We're like a radio channel. That's what this is. Is this self-serving? I don't think so. If that's what self-serving is, then Malcolm on the radio. We're just throwing it all out there.

SPEAKER_10 2:04

All right, this cheerful and sometimes giggly.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

There we go. Giggle. It's on it's on brand.

SPEAKER_10 2:10

I don't know if I like being called giggly.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

It's just it's what we do. What we do. It's fine. It's whatever, man. It's fine.

SPEAKER_10 2:18

That feels dismissive. Giggly pair friends have given us the opportunity to listen in as they talk through issues of the day with candor, laughter, and random special eff Okay, so he knows about these special effects. Uh-huh. Um, he's must be a good listener. Um, paired with a regular dose of Slim and Malcolm's tag team preaching on their mosaic Waco YouTube channel, you get a feel for the depth of the well from which these draw, these guys draw to tackle the topics they feature in each episode because the at times rank silliness and down-to-earth charm might just fool you. These brothers are in the trenches leading the way in a very serious spiritual war that threatens to make casualties of us all. I am so grateful for these men and their ministry, and I'm happy to take the time to share their thoughts process about the issues of the day and how they affect the life of faith in Jesus. John, that is worth um another version of the intro music again.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Oh boy. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

We're feeling splashing today. Apparently.

SPEAKER_10 3:25

Uh thank you for writing in. Uh, as always, those uh reviews do help uh others who may not have heard about the podcast hear about it. Um the algorithms overlords uh are are seeing the podcasts that get the the reviews that get the stars and then then they they recommend it to others. And so thank you for doing that, John. Uh and we hope others are able to see that and uh tune in and listen in. Uh so if any of this has been helpful, please do take the time to do that. Um Malcolm, what's going on in your life? You've been uh you've been a busy man.

Travel Updates And Book Tour

SPEAKER_04 3:56

Just uh just hanging out, traveling. You've been a busy man. Uh-huh. Yeah. Um yeah, just just doing some just some travel stuff for the book. Uh it's still getting where you been going. It's getting out there. Last week I was in Michigan for Moody Seminaries uh Center for Comp for Compelling Biblical Preaching. Uh this weekend I'll be at uh at a PCA church plant in Indianapolis, uh but doing some stuff, doing some stuff there. So that'll be fun.

SPEAKER_10 4:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Wow That'll be fun.

SPEAKER_10 4:28

People from all over the country. All over nationally televised, speaker all over the country sought after.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

All over the country. So if you want me to uh if you want me to come to your church, uh reach out. We can we can uh we can have a conversation. Uh but warning, it will likely uh revolutionize your community.

SPEAKER_09 4:47

So that was not the right sound.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

Uh that was not the right sound at all. Uh that's fine. It's whatever. That's fine. Now I know how Slim really feels about me, but it's fine. It's cool. No, no, no, it's whatever. It's fine. It's fine. Everything's fine. Uh everything's fine. Stop cussing out. Everything's fine.

“No Kings” Rallies: First Impressions

SPEAKER_10 5:06

All right. All right. So you've been all over the place. Um, did you did you hear that there was some things happening this past weekend? Um, what things? Did you did you know that there was this uh no kings rally that happened?

SPEAKER_04 5:19

Oh, do you want to do you want to talk about that? Because I I have thoughts. Oh, I I I do want to talk about that. I have relatively controversial thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Oh gosh, I don't know if I'm ready for controversial.

SPEAKER_04 5:28

But but but go ahead.

SPEAKER_10 5:29

This is kind of a PG podcast.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Is it? Is it really?

SPEAKER_10 5:32

Um Yes, yes, we uh Let's talk about it. Our family participated in the No Kings protest. Um did you know that it was an Antifa funded, uh George Soros funded protest?

SPEAKER_03 5:45

I did not know that.

SPEAKER_10 5:46

I made so much money.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_10 5:48

Making these signs.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Maybe I should have been involved.

SPEAKER_10 5:51

Oh my gosh. The check. I'm just like I'm like Scrooge McDuck, swimming in the gold with the amount of money I got for making these signs. Come on, man. I'm supposed to be the leftist.

SPEAKER_05 6:01

I'm supposed to be the leftist on this podcast.

SPEAKER_10 6:06

Uh no. Uh so our family did go out. Um, my youngest son Jordan wore a dragon costume to just show off the uh absurdity of these these claims that these people were uh radical leftists that hate America.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 6:20

Uh and so it was just a fun, it was it was a fun environment. Um it was uh it here in Waco we got to uh participate. It was out in front of um uh the the Crunch Gym area um on Valley Mills. And there was, I think there's like a thousand people that uh that went out. It was a big for Waco. Um, you know, I think seven million across the the nation. Yeah. And uh we made some signs. My my my oldest son made the sign uh that said uh I have friends everywhere with the little uh Star Wars Rebellion thing. Oh yeah. Have you watched any of Andor?

SPEAKER_03 6:52

I haven't. I think Jamar on a Jamar on a Substack says says said that I have to. I think it was Jamar.

SPEAKER_10 6:58

Yeah somebody, but this is a side note that you guys go watch season two of Andor on Disney Plus. I know we were thinking about canceling Disney Plus, but we we we you hold on to it for Andor at least. They made things right with Jimmy Kimmel, but uh they made up, but Andor, goodness, that's I mean I'm watching the app I'm watching the season and it's like oh, is this where we are at as a country? It it was pretty a little disconcerting. So, anyways, my old son made a sign that said, I have friends everywhere, which is kind of the sign, this this this phrase that they have as like a hey, we are on the rebellion, uh kind of like this this code code. Um and so he makes that, uh, which is great. Anyways, we were at the we were out there and it obviously was super peaceful. And in fact, I was there at 10 a.m. and it was too peaceful. I was like, can we like do something?

SPEAKER_02 7:55

I'm so glad you said that. So uh so so so before you get to what you're gonna say. Okay, go ahead. You probably have something deeper. I do.

SPEAKER_10 8:02

I thought, I thought, how can I make this more exciting? And yours is probably like, like, how do we make this actually matter?

SPEAKER_05 8:09

Um, not me.

SPEAKER_10 8:14

Mine was how many this like meaningful? And so I brought out the this like little like really handheld drum, and I just started like walking down the row, beating it, and then I was like, just like just playing the drum like that and people were like, cool. Like, because it was just quiet, it was like weirdly quiet. You're like, what are we doing here? And so then I was like, is there any leadership? Is anyone like gonna chant something?

SPEAKER_02 8:44

So like I then I was like, I was like, hey Kristen, uh my wife, Kristen. I was like, what should we chant? And she's like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_10 8:50

This is in the moment, and no one's chanting. That was just like wave hanging signs out to some cars that drive by, and then there's like a light, so then there's like there's like a lull between. So you're like just standing there with people who have signs, and it's fun to see other people's trust hoes and other people's signs. Yeah, um, and so then I was like, I was like standing there and I pulled up my phone on like googly, like, what would be good chance at a no kings?

unknown 9:15

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

And I was like, Kristen, what if we did this?

Nonviolent Action And MLK’s Four Steps

SPEAKER_10 9:19

She's like, that's stupid, don't do it. And so then I finally I was just like, I was like, uh, okay, we're at a no kings rally, I'm gonna say no kings, and then you're gonna say no, and then uh Jordan said thrones, and I was like, great. Um so I just went down there, I was like, no kings, and I said, Well, I was like, when I say no kings, you say no thrones, and then people I would go down, and people were excited, they're like, Yes! Of course. So we we rallied the troops and we said no kings, no thrones, and we made change. History is forever different.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Right.

SPEAKER_10 9:49

Um, I lost my voice and I could barely speak at church the next day. I was like up there doing like the the welcome, and I'm like, where'd my voice?

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Oh yeah, that's right. I was screaming, no kids. Oh, oh slim. That was fun. Oh my dear, my dear, dear co-faster.

SPEAKER_10 10:05

I was really disappointed though. I I did have a Halloween costume that was coming in, but it didn't, it got delayed. Boo! And it was like this like inflatable costume that was like I love all these inflatable costumes. I was gonna join up with my son, but yeah. So what do you think about these No Kings rallies? Uh did you participate? No, did I miss you?

SPEAKER_04 10:21

No, you did not miss me. I thought I was, I was like, maybe you were there. Um and not to advertise other podcasts on this podcast, uh, but but I spoke about this a little bit uh with Esau on Esau Macaulay's podcast. Um but we were we were less mean in that podcast than I think we could have been. So I can do that now. Um so so so what's so what was really interesting, even on the No Kings website, uh, because one of the things I was talking about there was like why engage in nonviolent, like why engage in nonviolent action, specifically nonviolent direct action, so the acts of protest things like that.

SPEAKER_07 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

Um and uh and I laid out there kind of what uh Martin Luther King's four four kind of steps uh of nonviolent direct action. So first you determine whether or not an injustice has taken place. That's the first step. Second step is you negotiate with the parties who committed said injustice. When that negotiation fails, you then move to the third step, which is self-purification, because you're like, if if I'm gonna if I'm gonna actually engage in uh in protest action, like I need to be the kind of person who is not doing that out of uh anger or revenge or trying to or kind of trying to harm someone. Yeah um as as King said about the about the nonviolent movement, it's it's aim is justice and reconciliation, not not not victory. Um but then the fourth step is you engaging in nonviolent direct action. And the purpose of that action is specifically to create a crisis that then forces the unjust party to the table of um of negotiation. Now, interestingly, I can't see where falling apart. So then uh on the No King's website website, uh one of the things that they say is that a core principle behind all No King's events is a commitment to nonviolent action and uh no civil disobedience. So it's like like there's essentially a no civil disobedience.

SPEAKER_10 12:25

But isn't aren't that what uh isn't that what they're trying to do with the sit-ins?

SPEAKER_04 12:29

Uh yes, they're trying to do civil disobedience.

SPEAKER_10 12:31

Uh wait, but you're saying no civil disobedience?

SPEAKER_04 12:33

Yeah, that's what the website says for no kings.

SPEAKER_10 12:35

Oh sorry.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Yeah, for no kings. Gotcha. So base so basically like like ba basically in the in the very framing of these of these things, it's not really to cause a stir. So you're saying we didn't go far enough? No, I'm just saying that like that was the intention of the thing. Like the the apparently the intention of the thing was not actually to cause a stir. So if the like if the if the goal is just hey, like let's gather with other people who are like-minded or would like like those kinds of things, like cool. But uh but uh but that is But I want us to have expectations of those things that are match the intention. So like the intention is not like that that kind of action is not going to if the goal is to change the situation, that kind of action is not like that's not gonna do it. Now, it that's not gonna say now it's not that that that doesn't say that those kinds of actions don't have any benefit. Um it's good, especially if you're in a um I mean whether you're in a city or town to be able to gather with other people who are all see at least a certain element of the evil that you uh that you see. But but without a kind of uh but without a kind of coherent goal, you end up running into I think the same issues that we ran into five years ago in the in some of the George Floyd marches, where you get a you get a mass mobilization of people marching. But while these people are marching, right wing folks are uh planning Project 2025. Like they're planning the legislation that we are now like that we're now dealing with, like, like what what what we're what we're experiencing now is the result of years of real planning, of real like legislative planning, of real planning of how to how to how to disrupt and really overhaul a system. And that's what we're like that's what we're seeing.

SPEAKER_07 14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Um and and and and that's overwhelm like it's overwhelming to a lot of people, but it's overwhelming because uh people uh kind of ignored the fact that uh that this that this was being planned for a really long time. So it's it's like that ov that overwhelm is intentional. That's the way Steve Bannon and and others talked about kind of how they how they wanted to flood the system to basically paralyze folks. Um and so and so as we think about kind of creative ways to at least for us to be beacons of the kingdom of God in the midst of the kings of the world, I want us to keep those uh like I want us to keep that keep that.

SPEAKER_10 15:09

So you're you're you're saying we need a a an alternate project 2029?

SPEAKER_04 15:15

Um no, because like you know, because my you you you you you you know my other my other assumption that like this is like this is also just kind of the empire doing empire things.

Planning Power vs. Symbolic Protests

SPEAKER_10 15:27

But but can't you perceive how beneficial it would be to have our empire?

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Yeah, right? Yeah, if you fight fight fire with fire, is what's what Gavin Newsom talks about.

SPEAKER_10 15:40

And that that sounds super trustworthy to me.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

Well, you know, part of part of what uh part of part of what being a Christian is uh is fighting fire with the podcast. It's fighting fire, fighting fire with water.

SPEAKER_10 15:55

So uh But you think about when you fight fire with fire, like they both go away.

SPEAKER_04 16:02

Yeah, we don't want we don't want what we have to go away.

SPEAKER_10 16:05

Yeah, that's the other thing. Like when I add fire to other fire, yeah, it just it all dies.

SPEAKER_04 16:10

Yeah, exactly. That's not what we do. We don't I was joking. We don't want we don't want that. It gets worse. Everyone burns. Yeah, yeah, everybody. No, no, no, like no no, like like no, but there is such a thing as a controlled burn. Like the like like like fighting fire with fire is actually a tactic, like it is actually a tactic. But uh, but that's not the way that we um but that's not the way that we, I think, as Christians are called to operate. I mean, we fight, yeah, we we would in instead of instead of trying to overthrow our fear and anxiety by just uh by just other displa like by just a counter-display of power, yeah. Um the the the question is really how do we how how do we build communities of deep of deep love and solidarity that are going to be able to withstand the kind of fear and anxiety that is essentially being being imposed on us by an authoritative government?

SPEAKER_10 16:58

I wasn't gonna go here yet, but might as well.

SPEAKER_08 17:02

Um boy.

SPEAKER_10 17:06

Um there is a a terrible tweet that's out there of President Trump posting uh a AI video of himself as uh a fighter pilot uh wearing a crown, flying over America, dropping uh poop on uh all of the the protesters of these No Kings protests.

SPEAKER_05 17:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_10 17:24

Um and one, it's just like just we have a child like uh as our president. It's just so like it's just a meme. How ridiculous is this?

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Uh just memes all the time.

SPEAKER_10 17:34

But then I saw other people because it's AI, and how simple is it to go? And they were making videos of Trump now doing that on uh on like you know Washington Monument, other things like that, and be like, look, Trump said he's doing this, and and in a sense they're fighting fire with fire. And I'm like, it doesn't help. It doesn't like he's already shown himself to be beastly. Just let people see how ghastly and ghoulish he is, and then let them go like that's that's not okay.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

I mean, I mean, I don't know. He feeds off of attention. I mean it's a it it's it's all an ego, it's all an ego trip anyway. Yeah, um, and I think you know, the more and like I say, I mean, and and and and and it continues to just be more reason for outrage. Like we could on a day-to-day basis look through all the truth social uh posts and Twitter posts and be mad about all of them. Yeah um like that's how this that's how this goes. And like I don't I just I don't want to spend the next three years just doing that. Like we have more we just have more important things to we have more important things to do. Well and like people oh go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_10 18:45

The good news is there is there is something spiritual happening right now in America.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Uh oh. I don't know if you knew about this. What's happening in America, Slim?

SPEAKER_10 18:55

There might be a revival happening.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Really? And what what evidence do you have for such a thing?

SPEAKER_10 19:01

And good news, um this is uh Aaron Rupert sharing Eric Trump telling us we are saving Christianity. In fact, um should I say it or should we let um see, can we hear it?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Um on Charlie Kirchburg A.

SPEAKER_10 19:19

Okay.

Fighting Fire With Water

SPEAKER_00 19:20

I can't tell you how many things are lining up. I mean, uh think about the fact that this book came out on Charlie Kirchburg. You know, I I mean so many different factors are all coming together at one thing. In the most unthinkable author could not have printed this book in the trials and tribulations inflicted in terms of where we are today. And look how much better humanity and our world is. You know, we're we're saving Christianity, we're saving Christian God, we're saving the family unit, we're saving the nation. I mean, DEI is out the window of any. We no longer have Hollywood Captain feeling for the national, you know, for the national anthem. You no longer have you know a Budweiser going woke as hell, or all of this is is dead. And yet, what do we have? You know, we have a return to people going to church, we have a return to people, you know, uh valuing their children and valuing society and we'll stop there.

SPEAKER_10 20:20

So uh he uh Eric Trump says that we're saving Christianity, we're saving God. Um so praise the Lord. Did you know did you know that God was saved?

SPEAKER_03 20:29

I didn't know God was in danger.

SPEAKER_10 20:30

Uh oh, he was in he was under fire.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

I didn't know. I didn't know. But Eric Trump saved him. The Lord who sits on the throne.

SPEAKER_10 20:44

Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

I didn't know that he was struggling. I knew the Lord was struggling.

SPEAKER_10 20:48

If we have a a a God that is in need of a human to save them, didn't know he was struggling. How fickle is that God? I mean this is in direct contrary to what have I been what have I been doing with my life?

SPEAKER_05 21:00

Not committing it to saving the Lord.

SPEAKER_10 21:06

Good news that Eric Trump was here. I'm glad he did it. Because we almost blew it. Um I mean, this is Acts 17, 25, uh insane, and he, God, is not served by human hands as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. Like that's the type of God we have that doesn't need us to save him. It doesn't, he doesn't need us. He uses he chooses to let uh to you work through us and and and proclaiming the gospel and and and and working uh shalom heaven here on earth, but it doesn't he doesn't need us. And so this is like like what utter like like just like wild, like uh what's the word self self-congratulating. Um I don't know, like we're saving Christianity, we're saving God, we're saving the family union, we're saving this nation. And then like as an example of that, Colin Kaepernick is no longer kneeling for the Ashley. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:07

Which is like it's a free speech thing.

SPEAKER_10 22:09

Like it's like these people aren't expressing he did he did that as a sign of of honor, like as kneeling, not like burning the flag or or videos of you know Trump pooping on people. Um, and then no longer Budweiser goes, I I I could care less of what Budweiser does. Um like that's wild.

Outrage Economy And Attention Loops

SPEAKER_04 22:28

I mean, I'm just saying that like none of these things are actual like signs of revival or anything like that.

SPEAKER_10 22:34

But that's what I was gonna ask, Malcolm. Do you think we're in a state of revival? Because there was also a report that we are in a state of revival because Bible sales are up.

SPEAKER_04 22:43

Yeah, um CCM streaming is up, CCM streaming is up, religion and spirituality app sales are up.

SPEAKER_10 22:49

So, good news as pastors, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_04 22:52

I mean, our job should be getting easier, and it totally happens. Totally, like totally.

SPEAKER_10 22:58

No, man, I mean So you you don't think we're we you don't think that this is evidence of revival?

SPEAKER_01 23:02

No, because because because revival m means the work of the Holy Spirit, and and uh none of those things are mentioned in the scriptures as effects of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_04 23:13

But couldn't they be like uh periphery to it?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Like evidences of but but insofar as they're at the periphery, I mean like yeah, yes, I I'm glad more Bibles are being sold, but like, but are more people obeying Jesus?

SPEAKER_05 23:29

Like that's what that's what matters to me.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

I you can you a whole bunch of people have Bibles in their in their houses that they don't read, yeah, much less obey. Like I I'm not I said this in my said this in my sermon this past Sunday, which I'm sure we'll have a conversation about.

“Saving God” Claims And Revival Metrics

SPEAKER_04 23:45

But like I just it there in especially in a lot of Protestant circles, the Bible is just kind of this magical talisman that as long as I'm like near one or have one on my phone, like that's that somehow makes me a Christian. And I'm like that James when the the reference that James makes to to to hearers of the hearers of the word is very similar to the people who's we could we could what what he says about those people is the same thing that he would say of people who just people who just read it or just have it on their just have it on their desk or whatever. It's not about it's not about where the Bible is, it's about whether or not you're actually whether whether or not you're actually living a life of obedience to the Lord of the scriptures.

SPEAKER_10 24:28

Yeah. And what matters. I I saw uh Russell Moore say um in regards to uh whether we are in a revival or not, based on these numbers from the Bible sales and things like this, and he said, when success is measured by public opinion, the stakes are high. Like we're doing well because public like there's a more capitalistic consumption. I mean, like all of those are just consumption now. You think about that, you're like, oh, but yeah, like what happens like if if Bible sales go down? Are we is is oh no is God leaving has the Lord left the temple? Like, is that like and yet we have all that stuff prophesied in the book of Revelation that there's gonna be a time when people or as we took we preached on Sunday that people will not put up with um you know sound doctrine. And so like there's gonna be things that happen. And so all this is like I'm not I'm not um negative that Bible sales are up or that apps are up or or or streaming is up in this way. Like I think it's just the it's the question of whether we're in a revival that I'm like, yeah, I'm a little hesitant about because there are, as we saw on uh this past Sunday or Saturday, there are seven million people who went out to these No Kings protests, which probably could have been more organized. Um, and we could talk about like maybe coming up with a different project 2029, um who are saying there's something evil going on um in our our government right now, and doesn't mean that that the revival can't happen in the midst of a an evil government, but right now the people who are supporting the government are the ones who are saying no, we're in a revival. And this is so this is all happening while Mike Johnson, you know, after the No Kings protest, and they asked him about it, and they're like, What do you think about that? And he's like, Well, I don't know why we're calling it No Kings, because if he were a king, he'd shut all this down, which was like not what you should have said because it sounded like a threat. And you're like, oh, that sounds like what a king would do. Yeah, and this is all happening while while while our government is shooting boats out of the water, and the Colombian president said that they actually killed fishermen, yeah, right? And then they said, like, well, there's two people who who weren't killed, instead of us trying them and saying that they were these terrorists or drug smugglers, we said, No, go back to your country. Like, we're willing to to to kill them, but then just to send them back to the country. This is why pastors are getting shot with pepper balls in Chicago by ice. This is why we just gave a 40 40 billion bailout to Argentina, a$1 billion upgrade to the$400 million Qatari jet,$172 million to two Christy Gnome private jets. Did you see Trump is now suing the Department of Justice for$230 million? Oh boy, to say you owe me$200, like his own nation.

SPEAKER_08 27:21

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_10 27:22

And who foots that is American taxpayers? He's he's literally robbing us for$230 million. And he's like, they asked him about it. He's like, oh, you know, I'll probably give it to charity. To his charities, oh my gosh, probably to the presidential uh uh library charity. Oh my gosh. Like oh my god, like so all this is happening. And so this is why I think the No Kings protest to me felt like a I feel like I have to do something. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

That's how it, that's how that is how it feels.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

I my uh my suggestion to anybody who feels like they have to do something, I got I got some stuff for you to do.

SPEAKER_10 27:58

Okay, tell tell us. We got we we we're we are we are we are ready to hear what to do.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

Here you here you go.

SPEAKER_10 28:05

All right, uh prayer. I'm gonna drum roll, not the drum show.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

Okay, drum, okay, drum roll. Because I got I got it, I got a few things. I got a few things too.

SPEAKER_10 28:12

Apparently, here we go.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

Great. Okay. Uh prayer, uh, fasting, uh, giving to the poor, uh, solitude, silence. Um, let's see, there are a few other uh few other things that we could do. Um basically uh Christ-likeness. Uh that's the that's the most important thing in your life because it's the only thing that matters.

Are Bible Sales A Revival?

SPEAKER_10 28:35

Uh Malcolm, that that that that doesn't deal with the beasts of revelation, which it um it does, though. Um and so this makes me think of the article you sent me, which is just FANTASIC. I've never heard of this group, the mixed suite.net. If anyone's ever heard of that, hilarious. Oh my goodness. They have an article that Malcolm shared with me um by a guy named Chris Vandersal. Um, and the article title is Don't Let the Beasts from Revelation Distract You From Your Expense Reports. And so it begins as if you are uh you're you're uh in an office working and then you're being called in to the to meet with your boss, and then it says, Thanks for having us thanks for coming in. Have a seat. I realize there's a lot going on right now between work and the seven-headed dragon that is here to brutally murder us, but I really need you to focus. As you know, this is a critical time for our company, and every individual needs to be accountable. Your lack of punctuality with your expense reports is very telling of where your priorities lie. Obviously, you aren't as concerned with work as you'd like to be. And it's a long uh not super long, but uh it goes down and it's just like I realize your expenses will add up to an immaterial amount for a company of this size, but our books need to be account accurate as possible. The last thing we need is to be audited while the physical manifestations of Satan are at large. Then we'd really be up a creek. It's The whole article is this uh farcical uh uh you know way of just saying like still keep on keeping on, uh basically, amidst the beasts of revelation, which which would be the the the tyrannical government that we are under, which is interesting because I feel like also the intention of doing something humorous like this is is actually is also to point to the is also in a sense to point to the absurdity to what what the author is going to say is the absurdity of being told to focus on the mundane when all these ridiculous things are happening, right?

SPEAKER_04 30:34

When like so like I so I'm I I'm like what do you what do you interpret?

SPEAKER_10 30:38

Do you interpret he's trying to make that argument?

SPEAKER_04 30:39

I think I think he's trying to make the argument like this is like this, like it's ridiculous to be told to focus on the mundane in the in the face of in the face of these cosmic threats. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:51

Um and and and and my and and so and and and I read this and I'm like, no, no, no, like actually, that's actually what I'm explicitly calling you to do.

SPEAKER_04 31:03

Like all these things that you actually can't do anything about, it doesn't actually do you any good to spend all of your time in anxiety about them. Yeah. Um, what what does what what what you and I are called to do in the midst of the kingdoms of the world is to continue to live as to live as people committed to the kingdom of God. So that means when the vulnerable in our midst are threatened, we have we have an immediate responsibility to to act uh to act in solid in solidarity with them. When there are um and and and when there is uh you know and when there's suffering that's outside of our reach, we go, we go to the Lord whom we whom we trust, the Lord who is actually in control of all things. That that is why we live lives, that's why we live lives of prayer. And and and this is not some people think that prayer is this is this escapist thing. No, no, no, no, no. The only way that we can, the only way that we can act justly and with mercy is if we are doing so out of a out of a life of prayer. Because otherwise, you're gonna get really tired because evil continues. And it's gonna continue even if you do all the good work and all this kind of stuff. You need to be like you need to be filled in order for you to actually be able to do that work. You need to live lives of actual communion with the God who created you and sustains you. Um, and that's the purpose, like that's what prayer is for. We were talking about this uh a few weeks ago, and I said Slim, Slim Priest on Prayer and uh and the Westminster Confession, the way that it defines prayer, the like the first thing that it talks about is is kind of lifting up your requests to the Lord. And I was like, that's not but that's not the main reason why we pray. We pray because we need to commune with our God. Yeah. Because God is the we we we we we don't we only exist because of our participation in God. And so prayer, so prayer is this, prayer is this, is this continually, continually humbling act that reminds us of who we actually are in the world. Um, because yeah, like circumstances like this are gonna are gonna press, I mean, they're they're they're gonna try to keep telling you that you're powerless, you're powerless, you're powerless. And the Christian is gonna be like, uh yeah, why is that surprising? But I serve, but I serve the God of all of all power, and so he's the one that I'm gonna rest in, and also he's the one who I'm gonna live in obedience to.

SPEAKER_10 33:29

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, this this is like I honestly, I think this article, this, this uh question is seemingly the most pressing question of our day right now.

SPEAKER_08 33:40

Yeah.

Beasts, Bureaucracy, And Everyday Faithfulness

SPEAKER_10 33:41

Um, because I mean I I I see this in our congregation, I see this in our city. Um the the the question of of what do I do? Like, yeah, there's so much like if if if we do have a totalitarian takeover of our government, and it there's it doesn't sound like we're in the like it might happen. It's happening, it's happening right now.

SPEAKER_04 34:04

This brother is demolishing uh pieces of the White House. This is this brother has no intention to leave.

SPEAKER_10 34:10

Like it's and so if that's happening in your your um Francis Schaefer in Germany, you do something. And so, like, there's like what do we do in this moment? And then at the same time, so I go to this this no kings protest and it starts, it's like 10 to 12, but uh, we have a soccer game at 12. So it's like the the the weird nature of like I've gotta go protest this thing that's like this imminent doom of our country. But also I got soccer. We have a soccer game at 12, so we have to leave at 11, so we can only stay for an hour. So absurd. But it's also like the reality of life of like there's still things that need to get done. And this is where like I love this article where it's like, but you still gotta turn in your expense report. And so, like, in terms of like what my my encouragement to people uh around is is yes, this is this is as bad as it can get. Um but worse. But but turn in your expense report. But like, like, like because as like maybe they're more joking, like, yeah, like the beast of revelation are taking over. Yes, they are.

SPEAKER_05 35:14

No, we're like, yeah, no, like that, that like is actually true.

SPEAKER_10 35:17

And therefore, what you do matters, but also it matters in a small domino effect of what God is actually the one doing the work. And so like that that's where like it actually brought me comfort, even though it was kind of I don't know if it was supposed to bring comfort. Yeah, so I'll I'll I'll link this in the notes. It's a fantastic article.

SPEAKER_04 35:37

Because like the because like the things the things like uh uh if I'm if I'm being honest, I've seen a serious dip in your overall performance ever since the beast of the sea emerged. It's it's been concerning to all of us. Not the not the sea beast, the lack of motivation you're exhibiting.

SPEAKER_05 35:52

You seem to be distracted, perhaps by the threat of eternal torment.

SPEAKER_04 35:55

I recommend it completely ignoring that during your 8 a.m.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

to 11 p.m. or whatever your nine to five is.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

I know, but again, someone's timesheets are are delinquent. Uh don't be don't get bogged down by the real life soul-sucking biblical kaiju. It's hilarious. Also, I mean, but I mean, I think, I think in a sense, this is a this is a uh this is also a commentary on the um on the uh life-consuming elements of capitalism. Uh but but but but one of the things that I want to say is that like actually you even even in these moments you are called to do the same things that you have always been called to do, um, which is you've been called to Christ-likeness.

SPEAKER_09 36:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:40

Um, and so and so uh at least as I think about my own I mean pastoral call, but also like life call. It's it's to continue to point people back to what is really, really important and where real power can be found, real hope, because that's the other thing, is is hope. Like the fact that so much of our anxiety is is is bound up in the particular state of the nation indicates that there are elements of our hope that are rooted in what happens in America.

SPEAKER_07 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:13

And that's just not like that's just not any substantive element of my hope.

SPEAKER_10 37:18

It's just not like put yourself in if you are a resident of Scotland, yeah. Uh of any other country, you're like, okay, like I I love my country, but like I'm not like putting my hope in like it's dominance in this world.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

I mean, like, and we're in a nation that was founded in theft and murder. Like what we're seeing is that it's it's that that's what we it's what we do.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

Yeah. Um, and as much as we have these narratives about ourselves as as exceptional and all this kind of stuff, we're we're people, many of whom are selfish and greedy.

SPEAKER_06 37:54

So, anyway.

SPEAKER_10 38:08

All right, well, I think this is a good time for us to uh switch gears and uh go to the the question of the the day of how to reclaim scripture and rediscover its beauty. Uh the the the question came about, uh Malcolm, um because you preached uh a pretty pretty spicy um clickbaity uh I just titled it in a clickbaity way in a clickbaity way. Malcolm preached a sermon uh uh this past Sunday called uh uh Why I'm not a Bible believing Christian. Um and my question for you, Malcolm, is you know, who do you think you are?

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. That's a that's a where do you think follow-up question?

SPEAKER_10 38:49

Where do you get off?

SPEAKER_03 38:50

Where do you get off?

SPEAKER_10 38:52

What would you say to that, Malcolm? Because I I think I'm voicing the opinion of many of the comments on Facebook or on YouTube for that.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

It's a fair, it's a it's a fair question. Um yeah, because you know, if you just saw that, you'd be like, oh, clearly Malcolm's uh apostasized from the faith.

SPEAKER_10 39:08

Because you preach you preached it from the Quran?

SPEAKER_04 39:11

Yeah, no, no, I've no I preached it from from the Bible, specifically, uh specifically 2 Timothy 3, 14 to 4.5, which includes uh what I think is every every Protestant's favorite book, uh every Protestant's favorite text in the scripture about the scripture. Um that all scripture is is is God breathed and and useful for uh all kinds of things.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Teaching. Uh like teaching and rebuking and encouragement, correct. Correcting and training, and yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 39:42

All that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 39:43

You know, you know, uh so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. All that all all that all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:49

Um and so um So what was your what was your argument there? Yeah, my main thing was that um, you know, the when when I go before the Lord in judgment, uh the Lord is not going to ask me first and foremost, like whether I believed whether I believed the Bible. Um it's it I do now. This is this and this I and I made this point at the very at the very beginning of the sermon.

SPEAKER_07 40:17

Your title seems to say otherwise.

Where Real Hope And Power Live

SPEAKER_04 40:19

I do well because and and my title says says otherwise because of what the fr of because of the work that the particular phrase Bible believing does, especially in I think American evangelical spaces, it's a shorthand. It doesn't just mean that you believe the Bible. It it it it is it is often paired with um I think specific uh and and unspoken um and unspoken assumptions, especially in a in a lot of kind of I think more uh more fundamentalist spaces. It's like if you if it it it it's a it's a it's a particular understanding, I think it's a particular understanding of the um of the scriptures in a way that uh in a way that I think in some ways uh ends up amounting to a kind of idolatry um where where the tech where the where the tech and and this is and and this like like and this is the other thing, like even the so Hebrews. Hebrews 4. Yeah this reference to the word of God as as living and active and like a double-edged sword cutting to the cut and cutting to the bone of the marrow. Yeah. Um in the next in the next verse, it's it refers to refers to the word of God and the fact that nothing is outside of his gaze. Like we we know that the like the Bible is not a person. The word of God though, like is in John, the word of God is is Jesus. Like life is life is found in Christ. The reason why we go to the scriptures is because in the scriptures Christ is revealed to us. And so one of the things I said in the sermon was that actually the most important text in the scripture about the scripture is what Jesus says in John 5 39, when he's talking when he's talking to the Pharisees and he tells well he's talking to the teachers of the law and he tells them You know, you you you search the scriptures because you think that in them they have that that in them you uh in them you have life, but these same scriptures point to me and you refuse to come to me.

SPEAKER_07 42:28

Yeah, that's a fantastic script.

Pivot To Scripture: Episode Theme

SPEAKER_04 42:31

If you if you like if you can if you can re you can read the Bible all you want, if it doesn't actually lead you to go to actually go to Jesus, the actual fount of life. It's not worth it. Like it's not it's not it's not it's not worth anything because the purpose of it is that is that is that the scriptures are meant to be read through the through through the through the lens of the spirit among the people of God in the church so that it points you and and all who engage with it to Jesus because that's where life is, because that's where life is actually found. So I want to I want to make sure that people's that people's focus is on the is on the right is on the right thing, because the right thing is Jesus. And so um there's a there's there was a quote from go ahead. You're saying you don't believe the Bible, you believe Jesus. I don't believe in the I don't my my faith is not in the Bible. My faith is in the Lord of the Bible.

SPEAKER_10 43:25

All right. So this is like a new version of what would Jesus do?

“Not A Bible-Believing Christian” Explained

SPEAKER_04 43:29

Not s not so much in in in the sense that like because what what what we get what we get in the scriptures, and not just in the scriptures themselves, but also but also uh but also to me in the in in the uh in the traditions of interpretation that come out of the that come out of the church, we get this picture of what the Christian life of what the Christian life is. Um and so and but the but the purpose of it is not like I I don't want people to just read the Bible more just to read the but just to read the Bible more. I want them to read the Bible more to commune with the to commune with the Lord. Yeah I don't want people to pray more just to pray more. I want people to pray more in in order that you might commune with the Lord. The goal is for the Holy Spirit to shape us into the image of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_07 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:17

And that and that happens, that happens as we, yes, read the Bible, but also pray, as we give to the poor, as we as we as we discipline, as we as we discipline our as we well, as uh uh as Paul says, as we as we offer the members of our body to to God in righteousness. Like that because that's what that's the practical, those are those are the practices that lead to that kind of holiness.

SPEAKER_10 44:43

Yeah, because you you can say you are Bible believing, and that there is a uh a very wide variance of what you mean by that. Yeah. So by saying I'm not a Bible-believing Christian, you are arguing there are many, uh currently, um, there's pastors out there that are saying I'm Bible believing, and therefore I'm actually, I believe that that slavery was justified. In fact, it's not sinful for you to own human beings. This is the pastor of the church who uh who pastors Pete Hegseth's uh church, uh our department of uh war. So so that's that's a that like that lit just happened in the last week or two uh that this this pastor said that. So they they are what they would argue Bible believing, because they because the Bible does talk about slavery, it does talk about polygamy. So you could also argue that if based off of uh scripture by being Bible believing you you believe in polyamorous relationships. Um are there other um that you've run into kind of like not just make it a straw man of people who would say that they are Bible believing um but it's kind of a wrong way of of reading the Bible, an obscure um its beauty?

SPEAKER_04 45:53

Well, I think that I mean for me it's just that I think the the main thing is that like the I want people to remember that the the reason the reason that you re the reason that you read the Bible is not because there's something it's not because of something I want to be careful as I say this, or I can just say it because it's our podcast. Uh but it's it's not because there's something special because there is something special about the word because it is because it is given to us it's given to us by God, even if it's uh even if it's written by human hands.

SPEAKER_07 46:33

Yeah.

Scripture Points To Christ, Not Itself

SPEAKER_04 46:34

But the but the per but the purpose of it is not to point to itself, but to point to the Lord. And so, and so when so like the like the like the question so to go to go back to the question at the final judgment, the question at the final judgment is not did you did you read your Bible? The question is like, did you live a life of obedience to me? Like that's that's that's what that's what that's what we're gonna be asked. Um it's not just about whether or not we read it, it's about whether we actually did what it what whether we actually did what it said in seeking above all things the kingdom of the kingdom of God and his and his righteousness.

SPEAKER_07 47:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:15

Um, and so part of it is uh because I you know I made the joke, I was like, it's am I using the scripture to say read the Bible less? No, I'm saying like read it right. Which which which which which which which means read it in such a way that that centers the need to be a Christ-believing and Christ-obeying Christian. That's what's that's that's a more important identification for me than for me to say that I'm Bible believing. Um, as important as believing what the Bible says is, I the reason why we do it is be is because of Jesus. Yeah. I it's like why I tell people like why I believe the Bible. It's not it, I I don't believe the Bible because I came to some independent uh uh uh conclusion that it's this authoritative document. No, it's that Jesus Christ died and got up from the dead, and because he did that, I'm gonna do whatever he says. And he says that the scripture is the word of God. Well, that means that I need to treat it as such. Like that's where that, that's where that comes from. Um and and why these particular books? Because after after the Lord ascended, he gave his people the Holy Spirit, and through that, and through that guidance, they saw, okay, you've got Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. These are these are authoritative. You've got these other gospels that are floating around in these communities, but they're false. They don't match up. They don't match up with the truth. They don't they don't they they don't match up with what the with what the apostles with what the apostles' teaching is, which is what the people of God are committed to in Acts in Acts 2, that they're devoted to the teaching is to the teachings of the apostles.

SPEAKER_10 48:48

Yeah, yeah. And that the how do we distinguish though? Um, because I think this is where I was like reading the Bible rightly, yeah. Um like because I think what we've we've already stated that we we we disagree with um the that God says it. Um that I believe it, that settles it. Um that's one way of like like just being like, I just affirm everything, but there's there we've already kind of made clear that there's there's such a a wide variance of interpretive beliefs out there. So you can't really just say I'm Bible believing because that doesn't really tell us anything.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

It doesn't tell us anything.

SPEAKER_10 49:21

And so it's it's more of just like it's too blanket of a statement. But what you're saying is let's let's read the Bible rightly, yes, and by that rightly, you're saying let's use Christ as our um lens to see the scriptures through. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

Um and so and expect to see him everywhere in it.

SPEAKER_10 49:38

Um and so how do we not make that um a a modern version of the German um um interpretation uh where like the that who is it? Um something von Harnack, where it's like the kernel and the husk. Where it's like, well, this this stuff is important, but really the the like the husk is is is is helpful, but the kernel is really what it's about. It's about Jesus. How do you make it not?

SPEAKER_04 50:01

No, because because because the other thing is that um because the other thing is that we are told by the scriptures that the fullness of God's revelation of himself is Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_07 50:13

Yeah.

Obedience Over Mere Reading

SPEAKER_04 50:14

And so that and so there is now that that doesn't mean that God, that that doesn't mean that that is God's only revelation of himself. Yeah. It's his it's the fullest revelation of himself. So when we so as we interact with God's revelation of himself, which is the scriptures, the scriptures are also God's God's revelation of himself, but but but we do but we do that through the lens of God's fullest revelation of himself. So for example, I'll give the example the way we think about violence. One of the main responses to the very uh kind of what I attempt to have a very a very consistent commitment to nonviolence because of Jesus. One of the one of the responses is and this is even in uh uh even even in Westminster, when you get the justifications of of uh of self-defense or retaliatory violence, there's always the reference back to the old testament. There's oh well, God told the people of God to do this then, so why would you begrudge that to me now? And I'm like, Because Jesus, the fullest revelation of God, of of God to us, told us this is what it means, this is what it means to follow me. Yeah. Specifically in a in a specifically in a case where he said, You have heard it said this, but I say to you this. What he's saying is, yes, okay, yes, the law says this. This is what the intent of the law is. Fuller revelations. A full it's a it's a it's a fuller understanding of what of what of what you were told. It's a deeper and also more difficult thing to do.

SPEAKER_10 51:56

But I think it's also a a a clearer, so it's not as in contrast to the old law. The old the old old revelation described described some of these things. It didn't prescribe that. And so Jesus is prescribing love your enemy. Yes. Yes. Old Testament has examples of of of war, of of violence, but it's not prescribing it. No. And that's where I'm like, I do want to be careful of being like, well, as long as like this is like like if we were to say, like our interpretive lenses, what would Jesus do? And I feel like that's a very uh that's you could interpret a lot. You're like, okay, well, I think this is what Jesus did.

SPEAKER_04 52:35

Yeah, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_10 52:36

It puts it at like back on us to decide what Jesus would do.

SPEAKER_04 52:39

My thing is also like Jesus has already told you to do plenty. Focus on doing those things. Like it's just like it's not like the the uh and I think a lot of our a lot of our back and forth is also is also because we it's just because we see the stuff that Jesus calls us to do and we just think it's too hard. So we find other ways to justify doing other things that are easier. And my thing is it's like, no, no, no. Like if you want to actually experience the power and peace that the Lord has for you, it only happens if you do what he says.

SPEAKER_10 53:14

Yeah. Yes. What why do you think so many people struggle today to see the beauty of scripture? What do you why why do you think that? Uh I think because you think it's the cultural noise, the cynicism about people misinterpreting scripture um already?

SPEAKER_04 53:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 53:34

Um I mean that's that's kind of where I would land.

SPEAKER_04 53:38

Yeah, I mean I think there are I think there are also ways in which some academic conversations have made it uh seem less accessible, less accessible than it is. Um that I think I have to um know all of these languages and stuff to like kind of really understand what it means. And and but but also I think it's because people are not seeking to live these things out in community. I mean it's it's one of the reasons why like the church is supposed to be a kind of a living icon of what obedience to Christ looks like. And the fact of the matter is is that so many of our communities are not that, so many of them revolve around particular uh particular personalities or uh or shows or whatever, and it's not it's not just a community of people seeking to be obedient to Christ together.

SPEAKER_10 54:36

Like that's what the like that's what it's supposed to, where we're we're we're we believe in quiet times and nothing against quiet times, but they had the Bible that they would read communally, right? They would have the letter written to the church of Ephesus, and they're like, let's all read this because there's only one person who's got that letter. Yeah, and it's uh a fragment of it.

Interpreting Through Jesus Without Evasion

SPEAKER_04 54:56

Read it and then like let's do what it says. Like that's what the like that's the orientation of it. Um and and it's and and so so it's like we have a tremendous privilege in being able to read and also in having access to the scriptures. What that ought the way that ought to be used though is like when you read it, like commit it to memory so that it is in you. Like my thing is like, because my thing is also like if you were, if you let's say that we uh enter into like an anti-Christian authoritarian government and you end up thrown into prison without without books or anything? Do you stay Christian? If you're stuck in a cell for months on end, you don't have a Bible, what are you gonna do? What are the songs that you're gonna sing? What are the prayers that you're gonna pray? Like what like what are those are are the scriptures in you to the extent that you that you that you'll be able to even grow closer closer to the Lord in that kind of situation? The Lord, the Lord had this had this period of so um uh uh uh Dallas Willard in in the spirit of the disciplines, which we uh uh which which we're reading as a uh as an eldership, uh he uh he he's reflecting on Christ's fasting in the wilderness, and he's like, we think about that as a period of weakening, but the wilderness is actually a period of strength. Like he like what's happening over those 40 days is he is getting stronger, and the Lord does not allow Satan to the Lord does not allow Satan to come tempt him until Jesus is at his strongest. That's crazy, like that's crazy to think about because for us, when we think about things like fasting and solitude and silence and stuff, like we think that what that is is it's making us weaker. No, what it is is in recognizing the weakness of our bodies, those are specifically the moments where Christ, where where we're we're we're where where God has the opportunity to show us his strength. And the and the fact of the matter is is that I mean for most of us, we ne we just we refuse to give the Lord the opportunity to show his strength in our lives. Um and and so um, so yeah, so like it's like we we re when when we encounter the scriptures, I want us to encounter them in ways that can that that convict us of sin and that bring us and that bring us low so that the Lord can lift us up, so that we can be reminded, oh right, every moment that I live is by is by means of my connection with the Lord. What how do I cultivate how do I cultivate that? What is it that keeps me from Christ like this? And how can I shed that? Like that's what this is for. It's not because the eyes are not the eyes are not primarily just on the Bible as a text. Our eyes are always on Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 57:55

And and your your sermon title was was was catchy, it it caught people's eyes, um, but it really was a manifestation of that John 5, uh, what is it, 43? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:07

Um because it of 39, 539.

SPEAKER_10 58:10

539, uh, of why I am not a Bible-believing Christian, in the sense the the the the verse there is that that you think that in them these scriptures have life. Um in a sense that we are using this the Bible, and I think about like um modern Christians who are using the Bible as a book to master rather than a a word that masters us. Yeah, like we're uh are we submitting ourselves to the word to go like please form me, not let me memorize you to make my arguments to to someone else. I think it's to submit ourselves under the word and go lead me to to the the fount of life. And that's where I'm like uh And here's the other thing.

SPEAKER_04 58:53

Well well, and that's the thing, because like that that prayer is not a prayer that we're making to the scriptures, it's a prayer that we're pr that we're that we're praying to the Lord to use the scriptures to do that in our to to to do that in our in our lives. Um so yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_10 59:09

So let's say we get people to that point. Yeah, let's say we get people um to say, I'm not I'm gonna give up trying to master the scriptures so that in them I have life, yeah. But now I'm gonna point myself to Jesus. Um here's where I think I I I I've I've found people go, okay, so all scripture is about Jesus. Um uh it's all about uh with how do we read scripture in light of Jesus? As Jesus says, it's all about me. Like in that these scriptures are pointing to me.

SPEAKER_04 59:41

As he did with the and and when he talked to the uh the two guys on the road to uh on the road to Emmaus, he he opened up the he opened up the scriptures to them in a way that uh showed them.

Wrestling With Hard Texts In Community

SPEAKER_10 59:52

Luke twenty four. He's like, this is all about me. Like it's all pointing to him, right? Um how do we interpret scripture and uh uh use like See scripture in the way that does point to Jesus without getting to the point where it feels like uh we're we're just reading a Where's Waldo book uh of just like opening it up and going like oh there's Jesus, oh there's Jesus. And in in a sense, that's the whole point of the passage. Um because I I I have been in settings uh where the the whole point of the passage, like I still believe our uh as a church, our value is to be gospel centered. Um but I think I had been in settings where that meant being salvation centered. It was it was not necessarily being pointing to Jesus in a sense of like who he was, yeah, it was pointing to Jesus' cross.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

Yeah, the death and death and resurrection. Well, I mean specifically death.

SPEAKER_10 1:00:40

Yeah. Which is where I think Scott McKnight has this great book called The King Jesus Gospel, and in it he asked the question, like, did Jesus actually preach the gospel?

SPEAKER_08 1:00:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:00:50

Because he wasn't like he wasn't going around talking about his death and resurrection. Yeah, he he would tell people like, I'm I'm going to.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

I'm going to die.

SPEAKER_10 1:00:56

But like that wasn't his main message. He was there out there like preaching good news to the poor. Right. Right. So like it says, like, w uh are we are we accusing Jesus of of preaching something other than the gospel? Uh obviously not. So how do how do you how do you see that kind of coming into this when we're saying like yes, let's point people to Jesus? What do we mean by that?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:16

Uh I I want us to, I think, remember that when we when we encounter the scriptures, we are encouraged to enter into a conversation with the Lord. Um and so when we engage, we do so prayerfully, and we do so understanding that um I said that in our encounter with the scriptures, we're in uh that we're that we're in a conversation with the Lord, that this is not just us reading a book like any other book, um, but that we are um but but but but you know but we're but we're we're enjoying uh we're enjoying a gift. Yeah and that and the and the purpose of our enjoying that gift is to draw us closer to the Lord. So if we encounter texts that seem to have the opposite effect, the response is not, okay, well let me just jettison that text. That's never an option because it's the word of God.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:15

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:16

So the so the response then is in conversation with the Lord, wrestle with it.

SPEAKER_10 1:02:22

Yes, yes, wrestle with it. That's where I'm like, this is where I want to run away from it. If you are listening to this podcast, all five of you, um if if if you are listening to like this is where the the title of this episode of of of asking like how to reclaim the beauty, um, how to reclaim scripture and rediscover its beauty. Um beauty draws us. Yeah. Like we obey not out of duty but delight. When you see something beautiful, you're like, I've got like it's not even like a like something you have to like physically think about, like, oh, I've gotta respond and say, Oh, that's awesome. You just naturally respond in that way. And when we see the beauty of Jesus, we we start to love what he loves.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:03:03

We start to love justice and mercy and humility. We're like, that's the way it should be. And it kind of breaks this cycle uh of of of feeling like we have to uh force this on on something or force our way to go like I gotta do, I gotta do what the Bible says. But when you see it, you're like, no, I I want to do what this is. It it it it in a sense it changes your taste buds to actually uh find those things to be sweet as as the scripture says, as honey.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:29

And that's the thing, like it has to get to the level where like you you assume that the Bible is beautiful. Yeah. And so then when you So when you get to those texts that are struggling, and then those so then so then the prayer is Lord show me how this is beautiful. Yeah. Like that's where like that's what it comes from. Like and it it it it it's not even so much a because the other thing I think for a lot of us is that like what we ask for is uh is understanding.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:58

So what we ask because what we want to do is we want to be able to master, we want to be able to master the text. And so and and the way that we do that is through intellectual mastery. If I know, if I know what's going on, then I've mastered the text and I can move on. And and and but the but the but our relationship with the Lord is not a relationship of mastery. Because he's because he's our master. It's a it's a it's a it's a it's a relationship of submission because the Lord, the Lord is calling us, is the Lord is calling us into something. Where the Lord is, is where we want to go. Yeah, we're not we're not trying to pull Christ to where to where we are. We're trying to go where the Lord is. Yeah. And so and and and and it's why it's why the Son of God took on took on flesh. He he became all that we are, so that we might become all that uh all that he is. Um, and so and so if that is the primary orientation of my life, then the question that I ask when I encounter scriptures that uh don't seem to be beautiful is Lord, I know you're beautiful, I know your word is beautiful. I need you to show me how that works.

Practices: Prayer, Fasting, Psalms, Lectionary

SPEAKER_10 1:05:03

So let me give you an example of how I found a text that didn't seem beautiful, beautiful. Please. But then I want to ask, how do I not swing the pendulum? Um so first, um, of I I I would think about First Timothy two, when it's a god when when Paul says, I don't I do not permit a woman to teach with authority. And we talked about this on our very first episode of like how we we've we changed our view on women in leadership. And this was this passage that for the longest time did not feel beautiful. It felt very restrictive, and you're like, Man, you just kind of sound you know, um patronizing and and and very condescending. I don't permit a woman to speak with authority. Are you kidding me? Um and that but I was like, well, I don't want to be just a man of my times. This is scripture, and so I'm like, but I I kind of had to go like, Lord, help me see how this is beautiful and uh working through it forever, finally able to go, like, okay, that word, you know, with authority, we can go, you can go back and listen to that episode of how that that shifted our view on that, but of of you know, to not permit a woman to to bark with you know, with with uh domineering, uh, with with this violent way of speaking to one another. And then there was this back and forth between the male and the female. Um, and it's like God God was trying to say through Paul, I don't permit this toxic relationship to happen. And you're like, this changes everything of how I see Paul. Like, was like even in complimentary circles, they're like, man, Paul kind of sounds a little over the top.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:06:26

And you're almost like making excuses, like, Paul is like this like like uncomfortable uncle that you you invite to Thanksgiving weddings or Thanksgiving parties, and you're like, oh gosh, yeah, um, I I have to make an excuse for him. Versus now you're like, no, Paul was actually trying to protect and have like a very healthy, safe marriage and healthy, safe relationships here. Yeah. Um, and so how do we find and so that's what I want to encourage us to when you find a text that you do struggle with and go like what is the beauty here? I'm not I'm struggling to see it. And that was a good example for me. But how do I not make sure I don't fall into the pendulum or or or swing the pendulum and go like, well, because I don't see it as beautiful, right? I've got to reinterpret what everything God says. No, because that puts me in that driver's seat. And that was like my I think probably what made me slow down my process of accepting that because I was like really hesitant. I didn't want to let my own preferences drive this.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:15

And I hate keep doing, I hate keep saying this, but it just keeps happening. Uh it's because we're Protestants. Uh there's the assumption, but there's the but there's the kind of base assumption that the primary locus of biblical interpretation is the individual. Right. And and and so and so we also think and it and it also feeds into um it also feeds into the assumptions of neoliberal capitalism. Uh, there's our political economy uh thing of the day. Um that that that the kind of that the primary locus of my identity is my is is me as an individual, um, as opposed to the fact that you know God has called us to engage with these things together. Um and not just together in our like in our local communities, though that's important, but to also do so um like with the church. Um and so uh I think I think about I think about uh particularly the uh the history and uh and tradition of the church, that's something that we ought to be constantly uh engaging, engaging with. Because like I said, I mean, because we act because we also act like, you know, uh we're the first ones to have the questions that we that we that we have. And yeah, and uh, but you know, if we if we do end up uh having questions and conclusions that uh are really different from everything from everything that's gone on before, that should uh that should also give us that should also give us give us pause. Um doesn't mean doesn't mean you're immediately wrong, but but uh but but it should at least but it should at least give you pause because understand that like you're we we we are all part of a really broad communion of saints over the course of a very long time. You are one of those people.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:07

So so and and and there is so much uh there's just so much richness that you can that you can that you can engage in um because of the because of the richness of that of that of that tradition and the saints that you're joined to.

SPEAKER_10 1:09:23

So as we we try to answer this question more clearly of of how to um read the Bible rightly, how to um you know reclaim the scripture and rediscover its beauty, um what advice would you give to someone who right now might find the Bible confusing or harsh? Um yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:46

Uh practically read it every day. Okay. Um alone? Read it, read it. Well, yeah, like yes, first first.

SPEAKER_10 1:09:55

Where where should they start? What what book?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:57

Uh I would say uh I mean m one of my favorite books is the Gospel of John.

SPEAKER_10 1:10:03

So start with the Gospel of John.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:05

Uh but but uh and but and and and I mean you could you could read I mean there are I mean I I would actually probably uh uh I'd say actually do the uh the lectionary the lectionary readings would actually be that might that might actually be that's probably better because um because I because I because I want us to also remember that we're not just reading these things by ourselves, but we're reading them with we're reading we read with the church.

SPEAKER_10 1:10:35

Yeah. Um we as a church are going through.

Three Questions For Every Passage

SPEAKER_04 1:10:37

That's why we're preaching through the lectionary right now. Um but uh I would say start there because you get a range, you get a range of things. You get Old Testament, you get Psalms, you get you get New Testament, you get it, you get epistles. Um but I would say that and pray that and pray the Psalms. Um both of those things are reading, are reading scripture. Um but uh it's also very practical when you pray the Psalms, because they're like they're literally prayers that we've been given. So like we can pray them. Um but but but it like it's just I mean that's the that's the that's the practical guidance because like I can't I can't tell you um I mean I can tell you that you will meet that God will meet you there um because that's where he says that's where he says that he'll meet you. Yeah and so like there's there's nothing else that you like it's not you gotta get yourself to a certain state of mind. What no, just like just meet the Lord where he says he's gonna meet you. And he's and he says he's gonna meet you in prayer and in the scriptures. So go there, so go there to meet him.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:47

Um there isn't, you know, there aren't uh there aren't gonna be, I mean, there might be some book that you read that you might like that but but but but but if you if you want to meet the Lord, go where he says you're gonna meet him. Yeah so you so encounter him in prayer and in the scriptures, and when he and and and and um uh uh Oslar Cham Oswald Chambers says this um when he talks about discipleship and um in in thinking about the Sermon on the Mount, he's like, what's gonna happen is you know, you're gonna read these scriptures and then and then you're gonna have there's going to be a moment in your life where the spirit is gonna bring that scripture back to your mind during like during your day-to-day. And then the question is gonna be, okay, are you gonna obey it or not? And choose to obey it in those in those moments. And when you do, you will encounter, like you will encounter the Lord. Um, but like, but that's but we but we but we read it to not only have this, not only have this conversation with the Lord, but also to open up avenues of obedience so that we can be constantly shaped into Christlieness.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:53

Um so that's like that's the practical encouragement. It's the most practical encouragement that I can give. Like it gives practices that bind you to the Lord.

SPEAKER_10 1:13:02

So we're gonna start with the Gospel of John. Sure. We're gonna read through that, maybe pray some of the lectionary, um, maybe pray the the the Psalms. What were the three questions you asked?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:11

Um of each text? Who is uh who is who is God? Um or or what is this what does this passage say? Just what does it say? Yeah, who is God in this text? Yeah, what does God require of me according to this text? So I think that's really helpful.

SPEAKER_10 1:13:26

Um we we you kind of simply go into the a passage if you were to begin um the Gospel of John, chapter one, you're reading it and you're going, what does it say? And just kind of navigate, you know, even if you if it helps to just kind of journal out, writing down like w how would I summarize this? Um who does it say God is in this? And so you're kind of getting that, that's where I think some of the beauty comes out of going like, who's just telling me who God is?

SPEAKER_09 1:13:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_10 1:13:48

And then going, what is this, what does that beauty compel me to? Um what does that compel me to to how to respond? And I think an underlying principle in all of that is that Luke 24 passage of saying that all scripture points to Christ. This is where Jesus is telling his disciples that it's all pointing to me. So even if you're reading John, which is you know one of the gospels that's explicitly about Jesus, yeah, and Jesus talks a lot. And Jesus talks a lot. So that that's a little easier, which is why we encourage you to start with that. But if you're starting somewhere else in the scriptures and going, okay, as I'm reading uh the book of Judges, how does this point me to Jesus? And as I'm reading that, I think that helps you read the Bible in such a it's just such a helpful way to go like there is a unity of the scriptures um that it's not about me, it's about Jesus. And that to me is one of the transformative things that I learned early on in this in the faith that just like made the Bible come to life. Yeah. Where it was like, it's not about me. It's not about you. It's about Jesus. And then you're like, oh, it's free. And you're like, oh, tell me more about you, Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:14:48

And then yes, how should I now live? But let's start there.

Beauty, Delight, And Formation In Christ

SPEAKER_04 1:14:52

Well, and because I mean the purpose of our creation, we were created in God's image and after his likeness. And so the like the purpose of our lives is not to uh is not just kind of a kind of self-actualization, it's I want to be like God. And that means I have to see him as he is. Uh, which, well, I mean, in in first John, we're told that when Christ returns, we will be like him because we will see him as he is. But we but but but throughout the scriptures, when we see God's revelation of himself and also see how he's called us to live, that is that that that that then draws us toward draws us toward him. That's the purpose of our lives.

SPEAKER_10 1:15:32

Yeah, yeah. Well, Malcolm, uh, since we are so young and so uh Gen Z are. I feel like that podcast was was very six-seven. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:44

I I'm leaving. Did I use it rightly? We're never doing this again. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:50

I don't know. I'm not one of the I don't.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:56

Dear listener, thank you so much for listening to this podcast.

SPEAKER_10 1:15:59

Uh uh, if you have questions about 67, uh about anything we said, you can email hello at theologyapises.com. Uh you can find us on Instagram, which we probably should use more, um, or uh you can just email us. Um but as always, the best way to s uh support this work is to give a rating and review. And if you found any of it helpful, please uh give a five star review and then write in. Let us know what you think. Alright, y'all. We'll see you in hopefully two weeks. Bye.