SPEAKER_05: 0:26

Hey, hey, hey, ladies and gentlemen. Hey yo. Hey, yo. Hey. Welcome to the Theology Pieces headquarters right here in Waco, Texas. That's where we're at. Where it is a uh a chilly 38 degrees. Yeah, that's a problem, man.

SPEAKER_04: 0:42

That's a problem.

SPEAKER_05: 0:42

And it'll be like 70 in a couple days. Yeah. Because that's Texas. Uh, and we love it. Don't we? We love it.

SPEAKER_04: 0:50

Don't we though?

SPEAKER_05: 0:51

Um, but hey, welcome to Theology Pieces, uh, where we hope to rebuild your theology at the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces. And uh, I've heard from a few of you uh over the last couple uh weeks, months uh who are in that place where you um your theology has been shattered to pieces. And uh we're just grateful that you listen, uh that you have followed along and this has been a a help to you. Uh and so man, thank you everyone for for tuning in. Malcolm, did you know that we are almost at 20,000 downloads? 20,000 downloads? That's crazy. That's wild. That's wild. Uh so that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Well, I think that, yeah. Thank you in studio audience. Um, but we I I think it's wild that that that that's gotta be more than just our moms that listen to it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:50

Probably.

SPEAKER_05: 1:50

Um, and not even sure if that happens.

SPEAKER_04: 1:52

Yeah, I mean it's definitely not our wives because our wives don't listen.

SPEAKER_05: 1:56

So still, we are still begging them and still can't seem to get it.

SPEAKER_04: 2:02

Oh, that's fine. One day.

SPEAKER_05: 2:04

Uh, anyways, uh today we are going to ask, why can't we be friends with airmonies?

SPEAKER_04: 2:12

Yeah, yeah. It's a great book. We're gonna we're gonna talk about a great book. It's called uh Knowing and Being Known. Hope for all our intimate relationships.

SPEAKER_05: 2:19

Oh man, oh man. Can't wait to have this conversation with Aaron. Um, but um as we've been saying, uh, if you find any of this stuff helpful, um and I have heard from some of y'all, thank you, thank you, thank you for um liking, subscribing, rating, reviewing, all of the things. Um Malcolm, we have a new review that came in.

SPEAKER_03: 2:39

Let's go.

SPEAKER_05: 2:39

A new five-star review.

SPEAKER_03: 2:41

Let's go.

SPEAKER_05: 2:42

And I have a guess that you might be able to answer something that that that came up here. The the the review is titled America's Original Sin. Okay. If you were to guess what you would say, what what would you say America's original sin is, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_04: 2:58

I you know, I don't know. I just I love America so much that I don't think it sins ever. So I don't know. I don't know. Correct. I don't even know what uh Correct. I don't even know. Untouchable. What would what possible thing would come to mind?

SPEAKER_05: 3:14

Uh this comes from one Mum Michelle.

SPEAKER_04: 3:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 3:18

I love the name. Uh, and she writes, the opposite of greed is not generosity, but what would you say that is, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_04: 3:27

I don't know. I so I read this great book uh where this person argues that uh that the opposite of greed is not generosity but solidarity. Uh as a matter of fact, this book is called The Anti-Greed Gospel. Oh, why the love is funny is the root of racism. How the show's gonna be a good idea.

SPEAKER_05: 3:43

Okay, yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_04: 3:44

It's it's fine. It's it's fine, slim. Trying to do a plug. Trying to do a plug, but whatever. It's fine. Go on.

SPEAKER_05: 3:51

Read the review. Do you want to plug any more of uh a future?

SPEAKER_04: 3:54

No, no, I can't I can't announce anything yet. Is it possible? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05: 3:58

Right?

SPEAKER_04: 3:59

I who knows another. There might be there might be a follow-up that I'm gonna call too anti-greed, too gospel.

SPEAKER_05: 4:09

All right, um, it's not a long review. Uh it that was about the end of it. They wrote the opposite of greed is not solid is not generosity but solidarity. Wow, oh, wow, exclamation point. Love that. Um so it sounds like that has struck a chord with someone. I'm glad. And it may have struck a a multiple chords, a multiple vocal chords, um, in multiple people. Uh, if your book is uh potentially gonna produce a second one. Um excited for you, Malcolm. That's excited. That's exciting. It is exciting. Um but hey, uh if you have any uh questions, please email those in at hello at theology and pieces.com. We'd love to be talking about the things that you are talking about. But Malcolm, um, we are recording this on uh what is what used to be a really important day in in my household. It is no longer as important, um, not because of me, but because of the world and the in the man. Okay. You know what today is, Malcolm? No idea. You don't know what today is?

SPEAKER_03: 5:13

No idea.

SPEAKER_05: 5:13

This is an important day, even if you're an a bail a baylor alum. Okay. What day is it, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_03: 5:20

I don't know.

SPEAKER_05: 5:21

It's National Signing Day.

SPEAKER_04: 5:22

Oh right, because people are into athletics. Do you care about that? I keep forgetting about the fact that people care about sports. Yikes. Uh this is awkward.

SPEAKER_05: 5:34

I just I just got exposed. I yeah, you need to step up your your love for your all. National signing day! Woo! Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 5:43

So it was ruining everything. Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_05: 5:46

So here's the thing. Uh it used to be super important.

SPEAKER_03: 5:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 5:51

But then they had two national signing days. Oh. So it makes it kind of like odd. Yeah. Um, although I think we've reverted down to one. I'm I'm I'm it's uh it's it's confusing, which is part of the problem.

SPEAKER_03: 6:02

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 6:03

So today's a big day for if you want to follow college athletics, National Sign Day, um, football. Yeah. Um, maybe some other sports. Um, but uh the ones that I care about, I went to Texas AM and so I care too much.

SPEAKER_03: 6:14

I get that.

SPEAKER_05: 6:15

Uh I just I if if someone were to say what what I'm guilty of, it's just I love too much. I I'm just I'm just too strong of a listener. Um say more. No, but honestly, uh I I care too much about Texas AM football. And so that became an idol and had to give it up. Um and then they went on this undefeated run to where they brought me back to carrying again.

SPEAKER_04: 6:43

That's when you're supposed to be a fam.

SPEAKER_05: 6:44

And then over Thanksgiving, they played University of Texas or Texas University, if you're a true Aggie. And then they got they didn't get blown out. They just lost, and then just it's I'm sorry. It hurts, man.

SPEAKER_04: 6:56

I'm sorry, man. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05: 6:57

It's it's just one game.

SPEAKER_04: 6:59

Yeah, it is, but it's against Texas.

SPEAKER_05: 7:02

Yeah. And they see themselves as the older brother, and they're like, all right, little brother, we'll we'll we'll tell you how this is done here in the SEC. No. I've just like alienated like 99% of our listeners that care nothing about this.

SPEAKER_04: 7:17

There are probably people who like tune out the beginning of the podcast anyway. And they're like, that at some point Slim and Malcolm will get serious, then I'll tune back in.

SPEAKER_05: 7:26

It's fine. How many of y'all care about the care about this part?

SPEAKER_04: 7:31

It's part of the branding. This they they they come for the banter, Slim. That's what I think. And sometimes the banter is.

SPEAKER_05: 7:36

I think they care about the personal. I think they care about humanity.

SPEAKER_04: 7:40

Because we're friends. Friendship matters.

SPEAKER_05: 7:43

Well, when we talk to our guests uh today, we'll find out if we are friends. Because I'm not sure if we are after reading her book. But um so that happened over Thanksgiving. Um today's National Day Day. That's not important.

SPEAKER_04: 7:55

How was your Thanksgiving, Malcolm? Thanksgiving was great.

SPEAKER_05: 7:58

Um What'd you do? I was doing a podcast a few uh actually, no, it was yesterday.

SPEAKER_04: 8:02

I'm sorry. Where I was made fun of that's not the one I wanted.

SPEAKER_05: 8:06

I'm sorry. You were sorry. You were betraying.

SPEAKER_04: 8:09

I've actually I've done a podcast this week. Anyway, but that's not the point. I know, I'm sorry. Anyway, so but I thought we were looking okay, look, but I was I was made fun of because I spent the entirety of Thanksgiving rereading Maximus the Confessor, which is a glorious way to use my Thanksgiving. I ate. He's not lying.

SPEAKER_05: 8:29

He he was sending me quotes and texts every now and then.

SPEAKER_04: 8:34

Dude, watch football. Just in case anybody is wondering how much of an insufferable nerd I am. I spent the entirety of Thanksgiving rereading the popular patristic series volume on the cosmic mystery of Jesus Christ by Maximus the Confessor, and it was a wonderful one. His name is cool enough to sound like he might be a part of the Gladiator movie, but he's not if I if I whenever I have to name myself in a video game, I name myself Maximus. Just so it's awesome. But anyway.

SPEAKER_05: 9:08

Alright, so you read a lot of it. It was great.

SPEAKER_04: 9:10

Uh I mean, you know, it's been time with family. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 9:12

I mean, what I mean they were there. What I'm messing with. What was the they're not listening? Exactly, right? What was the star of the Thanksgiving? Was it what what so dish?

SPEAKER_04: 9:25

Uh I love my so uh Desiree is now tasked with um uh the mac and cheese because she because she makes my mom's mac and cheese. Oh. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 9:38

So that was its own that she wants to or because she does not, because it's because it's great. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04: 9:43

Um and so when she actually when she made when Desiree made my mom's mac and cheese as the student become the master. At her at her fat like at her family's Thanksgiving, yeah, it became her family's Thanksgiving recipe. She's spreading the gospel of mac and cheese. Spreading the good news, spreading the good news of my mom's mac and cheese.

SPEAKER_05: 10:00

Um is it a secret recipe? Should we should we know?

SPEAKER_04: 10:03

Oh, it's not it's not really secret, but uh, but uh cheddar cheese is is heavily involved.

SPEAKER_05: 10:09

Um specifically, I mean we're not we're not talking craft.

SPEAKER_04: 10:12

No, no, no, no. Good gracious, no. Um no. Ideally, there's a significant amount of Vermont white cheddar cheese, which is the best cheese ever. Preferably as sharp as you can get it. But uh that's good stuff. No, it's great.

SPEAKER_05: 10:27

When when when when are you having Thanksgiving here in in Waco?

SPEAKER_04: 10:31

It's a good question. Uh probably in the next few years, though. Okay. But yeah, uh mac and cheese was good. Um the sweet potatoes were good. Turkey, the turkey was I I generally agree with people that like turkey is like the vegetable of proteins. Um but uh but the turkey, but the turkey was was was good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 10:51

Just oven roasted. Nice and nice and wet. Classic.

SPEAKER_04: 10:53

Yeah, so uh Desiree's brother, I think, did the yeah, did the turkey. Um it was good.

SPEAKER_05: 10:58

Desiree's brother. Solid work. He's the best. He is. Um shout out, Bart. What's up, Bart? Um we're asking.

SPEAKER_04: 11:07

Right, because I did a yeah, I was wondering. I was, I'm sorry. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 11:14

Slim, how was your how was your Thanksgiving? We're practicing the reciprocity of the thing. Yeah, because I got Wow.

SPEAKER_04: 11:21

Wow. Wow, you're putting all our business out here in these streets. Okay, that's fine. It's whatever. It's fine. Yeah, Slim, how was your Thanksgiving? I'm glad you asked, Malcolm.

SPEAKER_05: 11:33

I had a fantastic Thanksgiving. Uh I've decided I just love food too much, which has has been a problem in my life. Sure, sure. It is as of late. I gotta work on that. But uh that I can't I can't I can't dole it out to other people. I just I make too good a food. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04: 11:57

I you're saying you hoard you hoard all the you hoard all the food to yourself.

SPEAKER_05: 12:02

I don't trust other people to make it. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04: 12:04

Yeah, that no, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05: 12:05

Stuff that I want.

SPEAKER_04: 12:06

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 12:07

And so I smoked turkey, great, and I smoked ribs. Nice. It's not necessarily a Thanksgiving thing, but while you're smoking, you're already you already got the fire going, you might as well throw something else on there. Yeah. And so we smoked turkey and ribs, and from everyone that ate it, they're like, this is the best turkey we've ever made. Make sense, yeah. Um, and I'm not surprised. It was delicious. Yeah, it was amazing. That was awesome. Um, and then my wife made um a corn um casserole thing that was really good. Nice. Um, and then I made blueberry pie. Okay. Which was again, now my parents are asking for the rest. People, and I'm like, I know, I know, you're not out here. I made the homemade cinnamon vanilla whipped cream. Look at you! Okay, okay, Slim! Yeah, I yeah, people listeners are like getting hungry listening. This is a different podcast altogether. Like, okay. I'm not listening to theology in pieces.

SPEAKER_04: 12:56

Slim's out here whipping it up in the kitchen. All right. It was good.

SPEAKER_05: 12:59

It was good. It was good. I we were driving over to my parents' house, and I was like, you know, we're bringing all the stuff I really want to eat, so we could probably just detour somewhere else and just eat it to ourselves.

SPEAKER_04: 13:16

I mean, I I guess.

SPEAKER_05: 13:18

Are you not a stuffing man? I mean, I I don't think I had any here's the thing. I love stuffing. Yeah.

unknown: 13:26

Tell my mom.

SPEAKER_05: 13:27

Uh-oh. It wasn't great. Oh no! You can't put this out into the ether, man. People could hear. Oh, crap. She might listen. I don't even know if she listens. We should have we should have this conversation publicly.

SPEAKER_04: 13:39

We're doing this in real time. Editor, editor, can you edit that out? I'm gonna have a number of editor, can you edit that out?

SPEAKER_02: 13:47

It fell apart.

SPEAKER_04: 13:48

I'm whispering so she doesn't hear. Editor, just edit that out.

SPEAKER_05: 13:54

Just like, no. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Love you, Slim's mom. What are we doing? Um, Malcolm, you know what time it is?

SPEAKER_04: 14:07

What time is it?

SPEAKER_05: 14:08

It is time for your favorite segment.

SPEAKER_04: 14:10

Uh-oh. Oh boy. You know what? Okay, so I like I am actually off to like I'm actually off Twitter now. Yeah, what's that about? So let me let me apologize. I apologize to the 8,000 people who follow me on Twitter. I'm not going to do, I'm not doing it anymore.

SPEAKER_05: 14:26

Yeah, my my 8,000 as well. Uh I want to apologize.

SPEAKER_04: 14:33

I'm sorry. Uh tune in on Instagram because Twitter is that we're not.

SPEAKER_05: 14:38

Is it that bad to you?

SPEAKER_04: 14:39

Yeah, man. It's not.

SPEAKER_05: 14:40

Here's let me give you some hope.

SPEAKER_04: 14:41

Okay. Um or Truth Social. You can check me in on the There you go.

SPEAKER_05: 14:47

There you go. Now, it's this might come from a surprise to you. This one's from uh the Homeland Security account. Oh, great. Um, but it's it's scripture. And this is Isaiah 41. Fear thou not. We're we're talking King James. Okay. For I am with thee. Be not dismayed, for I am thy God. I will strengthen thee, yea. I will help thee, yea. I will uphold thee with thy right hand of my righteousness. Isaiah 41, 10. What? Isn't that great? What's the that our homeland security is quoting Scripture, Malcolm? What is the what's the context? This is the nation I want to live in. So what is what's the context? So there happens to be a video.

SPEAKER_04: 15:29

Oh, of course there's a video of what?

SPEAKER_05: 15:32

That goes along of the military cruelly dragging people off the street literally as you said that.

SPEAKER_04: 15:40

Yeah. Oh, so what a surprise. What a surprise.

SPEAKER_05: 15:43

Literally, as they are raiding, looks like I think uh Chicago as ice is going in. And so fear not.

SPEAKER_03: 15:52

What a surprise.

SPEAKER_05: 15:54

Because Ice is on the move.

SPEAKER_04: 15:58

Man, I like I wonder, like I feel like it's like it's like uh it's like putting like Isaiah it's like it's like a Syria. It's like a Syria uh posting something like this.

SPEAKER_05: 16:08

Like that's basically Oh my gosh, that's exactly what this is.

SPEAKER_04: 16:12

That's essentially what it is.

SPEAKER_05: 16:13

It's like that Assyria would put heads on stakes outside of their um to say warning to visitors this is what happened to you. There's a wall, right? Like this is basically and they're taking the Lord's name in vain. It's so disgusting.

SPEAKER_04: 16:31

That is, as the kids say, crazy work.

SPEAKER_05: 16:35

This is happening. Like crazy work, it's one thing for our government to make these these immigration policies. It's one thing for Biden, for uh George Bush, for whoever to make immigration policies. It's another to baptize them with scripture as they are doing. And do you know who's leading the charge, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_04: 16:57

Who's leading the charge?

SPEAKER_05: 16:58

It's not just uh old uh sleepy Don. Sorry. You fall asleep a lot these days. Is that too much? Is that too much disdain? Was that too much disdain? All right, all right.

SPEAKER_04: 17:17

Everybody who's listening, don't hold me responsible for anything that Slim says. I'm just I'm just out here.

SPEAKER_05: 17:22

Malcolm approved the script.

SPEAKER_04: 17:23

I'm just out here. I'm just out here. I'm just trying to make it.

SPEAKER_05: 17:28

All right, all right. Um it's it's also um the same the same person who's approving this.

SPEAKER_00: 17:40

They're suggesting they're suggesting Nancy that the the president has given illegal orders, which he has not. Every single order that is given to this United States military, this committee. We don't defy court orders, we do things like to suggest and encourage that active duty service members defy the chain of command is a very dangerous thing for sitting members of Congress to do, and they should be held accountable, and that's what the president wants to see.

SPEAKER_05: 18:18

All right, so the context here. You have you had uh the uh as as Fox News and others have have labeled them the seditious six, who have encouraged the American military to follow legal orders and to not follow unlawful orders.

SPEAKER_04: 18:34

They're like Spider-Man villains. Oh, yes, that's who we should talk about.

SPEAKER_05: 18:38

And one of them being Senator Mark Kelly, um, and they are this was in response to this bombing of the boats in in Venezuela. And just now recently we find out that in September there was a bombing of a boat that that Heggseth and others had have posted the video of us just murdering people in the in the ocean. And then they said kill everyone, leave no survivors. So some people who survived the bombing hang hung on to you know ends of ships to save for their life. They go back in and leave no survivors, leave no quarter. It is a a war crime. That's crazy work. And yet we have a a government who's saying every single order that comes out of the president's mouth is a lawful order. Malcolm, is there a problem with that?

SPEAKER_04: 19:33

Do you think I mean yeah, it's the same the same accountability that that he wants of people in Congress is an accountability that's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_05: 19:43

It's that simple.

SPEAKER_04: 19:44

It's just just uh anyway.

SPEAKER_02: 19:50

You know what you know what we need.

SPEAKER_04: 19:51

Slim wants to do this podcast just so he has a few minutes to be really mad about what's going on with the government, and then and then we can go on to our normal conversation.

SPEAKER_05: 20:00

What we need is more. Ah you know what we need to talk about friendship. Let's have air and all. Let's have that. All right, y'all. Well, we are excited to have our uh guest here this uh this afternoon. Um, the Reverend Dr. uh Aaron Moniz uh as uh uh associate chaplain and director uh for chapel. Uh her work includes overseeing Baylor Chapel and a team that leads uh various services and offerings, and she is part of the spiritual life staff, um, ministering the spiritual needs at Baylor, um uh pastoral care, teaching, worship, leading, and speaking. Um, and uh she is active in spiritual formation, mentoring, discipleship programming for emerging adults. She's a trained conciliator and has a position, uh passion for conflict coaching and third-party mediation, and the author of her new book, Knowing and Being Known. Uh Aaron, thanks for jumping on the podcast with us.

SPEAKER_06: 21:06

Oh, so, so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_05: 21:09

And also a musician, is that right?

SPEAKER_06: 21:11

Uh yeah, a long time ago. Um, I don't do it as much anymore, but uh in a former life I was a traveling singer-songwriter, folk musician. I play a couple instruments.

SPEAKER_05: 21:19

Oh, I did not know that. Really? Traveling okay what did so what did you play?

SPEAKER_06: 21:25

All right. Oh, I'm classically trained on the cello, but I also play That's my favorite instrument. Oh, cello's the best.

SPEAKER_04: 21:31

Oh, we're just learning new things about each other.

SPEAKER_06: 21:33

Play guitar, um, banjo, lap dulcimer, um mandolin, harmonica, a little bit of percussion.

SPEAKER_05: 21:39

So yeah. Yeah. So do you don't do you not play, do you not uh play as much anymore?

SPEAKER_06: 21:45

No, no. I I mean I don't always get the opportunity. I mean, every once in a while I'll I'll get pulled in by like some of my team for some stuff at chapel. But um, but yeah, no, just uh that was that was my early 20s. It was a lot of fun. Uh it was just kind of what we did back then. Um it was a great time, yeah. Like like had a few albums, but like it was all before everything went digital, so you can't find them. And that for that I'm eternally grateful every day. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 22:11

Do you have like a stock of old CDs that you give out at Christmas?

SPEAKER_06: 22:15

Oh no, a stock of old CDs that I hide from everyone.

SPEAKER_05: 22:19

Yes, Liman's is out at Christmas. So I still have a stock of old CDs from our band in college that they just find their way as gifts during Christmas. Literally a church staff meeting staff Christmas parties with their white elephant gift.

SPEAKER_06: 22:35

That is great. Now, what now were you was it was it Christian rock?

SPEAKER_05: 22:39

Uh it was we we like to see ourselves as Christians in a band, not a Christian band. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 22:45

I yeah.

unknown: 22:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 22:46

What about you? Were you were you touring as like uh the Christian artist?

SPEAKER_06: 22:50

We were we were folk musicians, um, which unless you're like Alison Krause or you know Patty Griffin, you're not making any money doing that. Um, but we had a lot of fun. Yeah, we we wrote about things that were like pseudo-religious, spiritual, yeah, but could be something else. Yes, because folk music.

SPEAKER_05: 23:07

Because folk music. That's cool. That's cool. Uh my favorite um traveling artist, um, our church back in uh Houston brought to uh I had another part of this. I was a youth, but it was the worst. It was half the I just remember walking by and this guy was he was he was acting like a like a dolphin and he was like, What's my porpoise in life?

SPEAKER_03: 23:32

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05: 23:33

So cheesy. Oh no. Oh Christians, oh Christians. Um and it's made me forever hate Christian um media and things like that.

SPEAKER_04: 23:43

Christian media in general.

SPEAKER_06: 23:46

Anyway, I mean I mean, fair enough. I mean, we could have a whole we could have a whole episode about that. Yeah, yeah for it.

SPEAKER_05: 23:51

I grew up in that era, so like got lots of thoughts. But my my I think the most important question we have to to to center us after this question. Yes. Um you're a deacon in the Anglican church, yes, and you get to wear a collar. I do. Why the collar? And can I wear one?

SPEAKER_06: 24:14

You know, if I mean you can pick one up at any sort of costume store. I mean anybody can does it need to be blessed? Whatever floats your blood, I guess. But um, but but no, I mean mine was, you know, uh bestowed on me by my archbishop. I don't know if that makes a difference.

SPEAKER_02: 24:30

Yeah, it does it does.

SPEAKER_05: 24:32

It does make a difference. Amazon's prime I mean the collar. Does it work?

SPEAKER_06: 24:37

Depends on who I'm talking about. Um but that's the thing, it's like literally anyone can put one on if they if they really want to. But um, no, I I was ordained in 2016 uh as a deacon, and in the Anglican church, um there's uh sort of uh visually speaking, there's like a minor distinction between deacons and priests. So if you see us wearing vestments, our stoles are a little different. So the the priest comes over both shoulders and uh mine comes uh across the chest uh as a deacon. But otherwise, everyone gets the collar, you're all called reverend, like it all like and to be honest, as far as church people are concerned, like you're just clergy. So like I being a deacon doesn't get me like out of any sort of work that like a normal pastor would do because they see you in a collar and people just make a beeline and they're just like, I'll talk to you. So like it we're we're all kind of in the same boat. We just have different uh functions uh within the church that are sort of descript for Anglicans.

SPEAKER_05: 25:28

Yeah. No, that's good.

SPEAKER_04: 25:30

So one of the other reasons that you're on this podcast, Aaron, is that uh Slim and I need friendship counseling. That's what we're doing here today. And and this and this book is just an it's an excellent book on all of our intimate relationships, but especially but especially friendship. So as we have as we have this conversation, uh, I just I just want you to keep in mind that sometimes Slim and I go through go through some difficulties together.

SPEAKER_05: 25:53

We're we're uh we're in the desert right now.

SPEAKER_04: 25:56

We're in the desert. We're in a dry spot and we're just gonna be.

SPEAKER_06: 25:58

I'm happy to give you my my hourly rates. Totally fine. Um we can totally do that. But you know that's a thing now. The that that friendship therapy is starting to become more of uh more of an emergent thing within therapy practice, but also just like uh friendship coaches, like the life coaches friendship coaches. Like interesting. This is all this is all happening. Friendship is starting to make a comeback and become marketable so that you know, because we're always trying to make money off of it.

SPEAKER_04: 26:24

We'll talk about capitalism later. Come on, Mammoth. Come on, Mammoth. Slim ask questions that Slim will probably ask, and then I'll come in and we'll talk about capitalism. So it's it's the towel. Tell this go.

SPEAKER_05: 26:36

Well, to get to this book, uh where did uh this book originate? Uh I I I'm read I read the book and I'm like, man, this thing is deep and it is making me wrestle with things I didn't want to wrestle with. And so I'm I I I hate that about it.

SPEAKER_06: 26:51

Um, no, I love that. I love that. And that's and that's the idea. Um this was this was uh honestly, it was a hard book to put together because um most relationship books are more how-to books. Um they're trying to like, because people are like, how do I do how do I how do I stay friends with Malcolm Foley? It's impossible. How do I somebody tell me right how this how this works? Um But what I realized is that uh for all of the content that my students were ingesting about the sort of how-tos of especially in in the Christian world, right, where where we're trying to make our faith primary when it comes to the kinds of relationships we have, um, I realized this book had to come first. Um and it was really an occupational hazard because um, you know, you you don't set out to be uh some sort of expert in intimate relationships, but if you you do college ministry and if you're working with emerging adults and students, um that's what your 80% of your office hours are gonna be. You're just gonna be students coming in and talking about this. Um and for years I wasn't 100% sure I was helping. I just, you know, I'm a little further down the road. I have uh anecdotal advice. Um I can kind of help them parse different things. But I think the aha moment for me came when I was I was reading the same content they were reading, watching the same, you know, YouTube sermons and things that they were that were influencing them. And all along uh it struck me that not only was this not necessarily helping them in significant ways with their relationships, but it wasn't making them more mature Christians. And I was like, this Christian content should at the very least be drawing them closer to Christ, should actually be helping them be actually more mature Christians. It should be growing them and discipling them. Um and somewhere along the way we've unmoored our conversations and discipleship about our relationships, especially for our students, um, and the things that are fundamental and important to our faith. Um so for me, that was a huge moment where I thought there has to be something uh that I've been missing in scripture, something that I've been missing about a theology of intimacy that brings these two things together because the gospel should be all-encompassing. The gospel should be an orienting piece for everything, everything in our lives, um, especially relationships, because we have a relational faith, right? We don't have just dogma, we have a relationship with God. And so there's something about a relationship that is so much at the center, and yet that's not what the content has been doing. That's not that's not the direction it's been taking. Um, and I think people well-meaningly are trying to help people make good decisions. It's not a bad thing. Um but I think if we start with behaviors, we actually miss what's fundamental to why we why we're why we do all of this, what's our tell us, what's what's driving this, what's behind it. So that's why I wrote the book.

SPEAKER_05: 29:38

Yeah. That's good. So it's more of kind of seeing the the cracks in um the ministry what we you who you're ministering to um and so then you you set out to try to address that. Um but you're all yeah, you're also able to see those cracks throughout your your your um time growing up. Um and you you you mentioned a few different things in the book around purity culture and things like that that that were kind of some of the resources that we bring and we you usually use when we're trying to address some of this. Um could you could you describe purity culture uh for those who may not um have grown up in that in that um and what where that kind of has uh its limits?

SPEAKER_06: 30:21

Yeah, yeah. Um purity culture is being written on by authors much more articulate than I who are are helping us parse this out and deconstruct it. Um I I mentioned it in my book because I know that um regardless of of whether my students because my students are all very young, much younger than me. I grew up in the um Acastating Goodbye era, the Joshua Harris, the whole thing, and and the pure purity culture at that time had a major influence on us because it was the way Christian, especially youth uh discipleship was being framed as a way to help students come back to what was this traditional sexual ethic, um this idea of of uh pushing back against cultural pressures to uh exist in relationships, especially in our sexuality in ways that were not uh pure or modest, um, but again, also focused very much on behaviors and also spoke very much to the mechanisms of the time. So I kissed dating would buy goodbye was reactionary towards uh modern dating. And um I talk a little bit about this in the book, how it's not that we don't need things that are timely to speak to an error, like we need we need resources now that talk about AI. We need to talk about things that are pertinent to what we're dealing with. That's a new book. I kissed AI goodbye. Hey, here we go. Hey, that think about that, Malcolm.

SPEAKER_04: 31:41

Yeah, hey, look, I I already got a second one that was five seconds.

SPEAKER_02: 31:46

Number three, number three.

SPEAKER_06: 31:47

We need we need timely resources, but the problem with uh addressing those things in their most current form is that oftentimes we're narrowing the conversation to only address very specific things. And that's sort of how we end up losing the gospel, is when we're saying, okay, how do we combat this specific thing? Yeah. Um and so, but purity culture has continued. It's actually not just a thing of the past. I still see sort of purity culture 2.0 because we're still trying to help students live within an ethic that we believe scripture is very um uh pr pronounced about, like that this is not something that has changed in scripture. Um, and yet we're still struggling to know how to do that and to not replicate maybe some of the damages of purity culture in the 80s and 90s uh evangelical world. But it's still influencing my students. It's still having effect, it's still in the water. So um, I think I would say it it just boils down to our attempts to try to get students to have godly relationships, although I don't think it succeeds very well. And and the research would show that it doesn't.

SPEAKER_05: 32:48

Yeah, I I I saw firsthand how it didn't succeed. Um growing up in the um 90s, early 2000s, and uh went to a true love weights conference, which I know you referenced in the book.

SPEAKER_06: 33:00

Uh DCLA.

SPEAKER_05: 33:01

Yeah. Um and uh got my my my purity ring with me and my dad and uh some other people in our church. Um and I I was happy with that. That I think that was sophomore year or high school, but I think it was my junior or senior year of high school, so it was like uh still some time away from that, but I was still rocking my ring. Um that I remember going to youth group, and then afterwards we would go to like Sonic afterwards to get you know drinks or whatnot. And I pull up to my uh one of my uh fellow football friends um who was kind of on the on the fringe of the youth group, but he was there. Uh but he he went to the true love weights conference too, and I was like, I don't know where he's at spiritually, but he went to that conference. Anyways, I pull up to his his his uh jacked up because that's what high school schoolers did then, and they jacked their trucks up. Um, and he had LCD screens or whatever screens in his truck, uh, and he's sitting in there with his girlfriend, and there's porn being played on like four different screens after youth group, and I walk up like and I was like, God, whoa, whoa, dude, what's going on here? If there was ever just a visual true love, wait.

SPEAKER_06: 34:09

It's wearing his ring doesn't work. Yeah, I got the ring and the screens and the girlfriend in the truck.

SPEAKER_05: 34:14

Ah, I said I can't. That's true out in the street. What's going on with that? I thought you were wearing the ring. And he's like, yeah. And I thought he's like, so what? And I was like, I was like, you know, like this is like, are you hurt? And he's like, he's like, yeah. And I'm like, oh, oh. And I was like, but put the ring. And he goes, he goes, I just take it off when we have stuff.

SPEAKER_06: 34:35

And I was like, oh yeah, that's okay. Now we know. Now we've got it.

SPEAKER_04: 34:44

That was wild. That is that is wild. Um, we can't do it with the podcast like a telling story. And we're all scarred by it. Okay, it's it's true. I'm I don't I know I have story everything. So of the classical, of the classical orthodox Christian doctrines, whether we're talking about the doctrine of Christ or the doctrine of today or the doctrine of humanity or or or or or whatever. Um which which of these which which of these which of these doctrines is most helpful for us to contemplate and consider as we consider uh what what what ought to be the model for our intimate relationships?

SPEAKER_06: 35:34

Yeah, it's uh it's the trinity. And it feels like a like an uh unusual thing to apply to something like this. Because again, like so so much of what we're pulling from in scripture are proof texts that help us know how. Like what are the behaviors, what are the do's and don'ts. Like you look at the guy in the truck and you think something is completely wrong with his picture. Everything is like in in our nature is to to find a way to course correct. Um, and and behaviors are important. Don't hear me say they're not important, but um but I think a lot of of what we know about scripture is that uh our sin and uh the way that we exist and we disobey God um has to do with a distortion of something that God has said. This is what is true and this is what is real, and we live in sort of a false reality based off of lies. And so the reason the Trinity is the doctrine I think that that is is most essential is because it is uh the starting point of every relationship, even the whole concept of relationship that springs from the imagination of God, marriage, family, friendship. These are not things that just happen naturally through sort of social evolution. And people thought, oh, these are good ideas, let's create institutions. It happened because these are things that God created, that God said, let there be these things that connect humans to one another. Um, and that imagination ultimately springs from the essence of God, which is a three-in-one God in community with God's self before the dawn of time, and that all created beautiful things uh in Genesis, as we see, are are an overflow, are a result of that fullness. And so we get this picture of everything good and right about a relationship that we would want to have when we when we look at what we know about the Trinity. Now, obviously that was distorted by the fall, um, but but but it retains and then and then is is brought back uh into restoration through Christ's incarnation and and death and resurrection. So um, but but all of that doesn't matter for our relationships if we don't first start with the with the Trinity.

SPEAKER_05: 37:39

Yeah, that's good. That's good. Um I want to go back to the the title of the book of knowing and being known. Um and I think I'm more comfortable in the knowing. Um I think many of us feel very terrified in the being known. Um what why is that? Like I I'm I could learn so many facts about other people and about uh about God, about all these things.

SPEAKER_04: 38:04

But then'cause you're a sinful Rex, Lynn. That's why not kidding our.

SPEAKER_05: 38:08

Well, this was our podcast, everybody. Good night. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_04: 38:14

And just kidding. Sorry, the question, the question's for Aaron.

SPEAKER_06: 38:22

Why is it hard? Why is it hard? Um well it's it's vulnerability. This is this is, I think, this is the trickiest thing. I think this is what we're mitigating all the time. This is actually what people capitalize on when they're making money off of our loneliness, is they are capitalizing on apps and and technological mechanisms that actually try to um limit the the friction and the intensity and the dissonance of being a human in a relationship where the only route to intimacy is through vulnerability. I say in the book, vulnerability is the currency of intimacy, but vulnerability is risky. Um it's never not risky. It is always risky. And we uh the the longer we live, we see how that can be weaponized against us. Um, we see people who deal with that poorly. Um and so we learn how to protect ourselves. And there's something discerning about that, about actually discerning. I I try to tell people that vulnerability and trust building have to go along parallel rails so that you risk a little bit. And in doing so, you sort of extend that trust. And when it's met, that trust builds. And so you can risk a little bit more. And so it's it's this it's this ongoing um journey uh together because we don't do vulnerability well. We either just jump in and are way super vulnerable. Some of my students have that problem. They're just super vulnerable right off the bat. Um and and then that can come back to bite them. Um, but my problem is you're like you're slim, like I I would rather hear about everyone else and log that away than to risk being vulnerable myself. Um but some of it that is just a natural part of risk management, but also like you can't. There is no intimacy. You can't you cannot build deeper connections without a greater and greater amount of vulnerability being being risked. And uh yeah, and that's the rep. I think that's something we're all trying to to negotiate.

SPEAKER_02: 40:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 40:14

Yeah. And you use the that term all throughout the book of intimacy. Um and you even have the great um line that you I guess uh had heard from a conference that I can live without sex, but I cannot live without intimacy. Yeah. Um such a great line. Um Well, how would you dis how would you dis uh define intimacy? Um, because it's something that I think we're you're saying we are all meant for. I cannot live without intimacy. What is that? What is that that we are meant for?

SPEAKER_06: 40:43

Yeah. In the book, I really I really had to sit with this for a long time to figure out how to articulate this, but I I sort of landed on the highest aim of intimacy is a generative closeness that affirms and refreshes one's identity and value and does so for the other person. It's a reciprocal uh non-uh static movement towards each other, but towards each other with a purpose to to be people that are constantly affirming and refreshing who we are and and I would say who we are because of Christ, um, what is true about us pulling us away from those false narratives into what is what is true and good because of Christ. Um and and I do that for the people I love and they do that for me. And the purpose of intimacy is to have these relationships where there's this reciprocal movement happening all the time. Uh, my marriage, my friendships, my family should all be aimed at this. So so intimacy applies um sort of across multiple relationships. It's a tricky word because most of us think of it in a carnal way. That's usually how it's used.

SPEAKER_05: 41:46

Um Yeah, I Googled intimacy before on and then pulled up images, and it was not what we were talking about.

SPEAKER_06: 41:53

No, no, no. Slim, what you don't want to do is you don't want to go to like Christian books with the words intimacy in the title. That is a rabbit hole that's very hard to come back from.

SPEAKER_02: 42:03

Oh no.

SPEAKER_06: 42:04

It's uh because we were we're trying to think of titles for the book. Those are these were dark days. We really struggled um because intimacy is just not not one of the. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 42:18

You've just now made everyone want to go start.

SPEAKER_06: 42:22

Yeah, if the truck story didn't scar you, we're just gonna keep digging. Um welcome listeners after here. But um, yeah, it was a tricky word, but also uh you needed something that would define relationships ultimately, um, aside from a more transactional or economic status that is purely just economic and transactional. Um intimate relationships have some of that as a part of it, but what I have with like my friends, my marriage, my family, it's just going to be categorically different. It doesn't necessitate, does not necessitate that they are sexual, but it does necessitate that they are they're intimate on a level that is is different from other types of relationships. So it's a helpful word, but uh there's a lot of vocabulary to have to overcome just to get to where you can talk about this stuff.

SPEAKER_04: 43:08

Yeah. That's so fascinating to me. If you'll uh just allow a quick reflection. Please go, Doctor, just briefly. Where's this going? No, I because I think about even just um even just what you just said about the people that when we think when we think about intimacy, the first thing, first thing that often goes through people's minds is is is sex. And the fact that and and you and you have you have an ex you have a relatively extended reflection uh on union with Christ uh in the book, and it is my it's like it's been my doctrinal obsession for at least 15 years. Um but there is a um uh my new favorite theologian, uh uh Nicholas uh has this extended reflection on how close union with Christ is, um, that the scripture uses all of these metaphors for. I mean, we've got husband and wife, you've got you've got uh vine and branch, like all this all these things. Um but he has this image of like he says our our union with Christ is closer than our union with our own bodies. Um because like because like like if you think of something that you're like one with, like you would think about your own body, but the but the martyrs were more willing to have their limbs and heads severed from them than to be than than to be separated from from Christ. Like you want a picture, like you want a picture of intimacy, like that, that's a picture. And so to think about to think about the ways in which our imaginations have been dulled because we've failed to, because we failed to understand not only who God is in Trinity, but and and and who Christ is, but also who we are in Christ. Um it's just it's fascinating to see that in those kind of visceral ways when the fact that when we think about intimacy, we think about this thing that is, you know, it's a good, it's a good thing in the in the context that God, you know, in the context that God has said it, but but even there it's a it's a shadow of a it's a shadow of a greater of a greater reality.

SPEAKER_06: 45:17

Yeah. And that's the beauty of it, is this idea that all of my human relationships are in participation with this sort of gravitas that is driving me to that center. Um, the idea that that maybe all of these relationships exist for that purpose. And and that's not always how I think about my own existence in those relationships. And that's that's a shift that's been happening in my life since I wrote the book. This has hugely challenged my own existence. Um, but yeah, the union with Christ, I you can thank uh Wesley Hill for that. He was my advisor when I was doing my doctoral work and he um it was kind of a a late, like, you know, 11th hour thing where he says, let's let's look at union with Christ for the for the systematics chapter for your doctorate. And I I just fell in love with that. I didn't get to put as much of it into the book because um dissertations, of course, are written for committee and books are written for like real people. So like we we we do what we can. But um, but it's it is it is magnificent. And the picture that I always comes to mind is when Christ comes back in his resurrected body and he's walking through walls because the walls are less real than the resurrected Christ being most real. And to think about to have to have a picture of this idea of of being the most true, full human that I can be, which is of course what we ache for, what we what we desire, what I think drives us um to Christ and to each other. And I think it's brilliant the idea that Christ put in us this drive for each other, this this this desire for intimacy that we never get to walk away from, uh, as a way of trying to draw us to that, to say this is what you're made for, and that our human relationships are somehow an embodiment of that along the journey. Uh, even with really messy people who are also the source of a lot of our hurt, um, they are also the location of God and the Holy Spirit that are kind of the only portals to get us to that amazing idea. But if I can live out of that, if I can live out of who I am free and full and adopted and beloved and remember for even a moment that that is who I am because of Christ, everyone around me benefits because I come to my work full and not feeling alive scarcity. I come to my relationships full and not feeling alive scarcity, everything changes um when I remember who I am because of what Christ did for me on the cross and resurrection. Um, but I forget. We forget, and that's why relationships are so important because they are the constant that says, nope, come back, come back, come back if we're doing them well, if we are stewarding them as a spiritual discipline that we get to love.

SPEAKER_05: 47:56

Oh, that's so good. That's so good. It's awesome. See, Aaron's great. You tried to tell me.

SPEAKER_04: 48:06

Are you ready to talk about capitalism now, Silva? Can I talk about capitalism? Oh, it's or do you or do you want to do you want to ask another question?

SPEAKER_05: 48:12

Can I just she was right on the cusp of the great line that says intimacy intimacy is the enemy of shame. And that is like the mic drop line for for me for the book, where I'm just like, yeah, what can you expound on that?

SPEAKER_06: 48:27

Yeah, boy. Um for me, like I I know, I know when we think about like what gets in the way of relationships, we think about sin, but sin has a a point of origin that I think we we can go all the way back to Genesis to the fall and look at that hinge in verse 225. The hinge point between everything bright and beautiful and everything being broken is they were naked and knew no shame. And why mention shame? Why, why is that the hinge point at which our entire human story turns? Um, and I think for for me it has helped significantly to realize that a lot of my favorite sins and a lot of the the sort of fear and seat that drives my bad behaviors in relationships, um and just just spiritually generally, but but certainly in relationships, um, actually comes from this sort of constant pull back and forth between my desire for closeness with others and this shame that pulls me into isolation. And shame is not like conviction or guilt. Guilt and conviction are good things that lead me to repentance, that lead me to Christ, that lead me to repair. Um, shame is different. It feels the same as guilt and conviction, but it leads me a different place because it's there to attack my identity. Not I did something wrong, but I am something wrong. Um, and shame can come even from things that we don't do. It can be from things that happened to us. So it's insidious in its nature. But we have this narrative that um the enemy is constantly weaponizing to get us to believe something untrue about ourselves and shame lies. It lies to us about our identity and tries to tell us things that only the gospel gets to say about us. Only the gospel gets to tell us who we are and what our value is. But shame tells me that I need to isolate that no that I I don't deserve to be seen or known. That I uh am not free to be a person who can be myself, who can be true with others. Um and and that is sort of always running in the background and needs attention. Um, and the enemy is intimacy because where shame says isolate, intimacy says no, come close. Where shame says hide, don't don't show yourself, in me says we want to see you. Um but it is it is the weapon that fights our shame. And boy, boy, do we need that. Boy do we need relationships that are attentive to that that power that they have. Um, because what how how incredible would it be for our marriages and our family life and our friendships to be resonant with that discipline, um, to be the very people on the front lines of that that um journey in our lives that I need constantly.

SPEAKER_02: 51:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 51:07

But Malcolm. That's good. She's preaching here.

SPEAKER_04: 51:12

That's what she does. That's what she does. That's what she does. Why do we got her on the podcast?

SPEAKER_05: 51:17

Let's talk about our favorite friend, Mammon. Ooh, ooh.

SPEAKER_04: 51:21

Speaking of speaking of speaking, speaking of mammon, um, in the wouldn't be this podcast if we didn't have a little bit of a little mammon. A little a little cover. Don't don't do that. Don't don't don't don't do that. We can be little. Don't do that. Demon? There are there are there are racist connotations for that. Uh it's probably layers. Yeah, they're layers. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. That's okay. Don't worry about that. I'm gonna go. I don't know what it's everyone. I don't know what to tell me. Everybody, uh so uh this is in the this is in the chapter how the Western world co-opted our identities. You name three values of the Western world, uh individual agency, personal and civic responsibility, personal freedom. But the way that you uh these offshoots that I think uh are deeply dangerous, you say you say they're autonomy, entitlement, and productivity. Um that sounds like Merca right there. Uh the Merca.

SPEAKER_06: 52:19

That is, sir. That is America with a capital M.

SPEAKER_04: 52:22

Merca. Um, which is which is also to say uh it's our particular mode of capitalism. How does capitalism keep us from really being friends, Aaron? That's that's that's that's my question. I want to know how capitalism is coming between me and Slim and how we can handle that.

SPEAKER_06: 52:38

Yeah, I was actually um just in Nashville giving a talk about um friendship and why adult friendship is really hard. One of the first things I start out with is like, um we we don't feel like we can afford it. Like, and I mean in Nashville this resonates because it's like we're gonna go out again. And for like two drinks, I've got a hundred and fifty dollar budget. But also like, I can't be your bridesmaid, I'm sorry. Like, I don't, I can't sell my car to do this. Um, but I will support you as a guest. You know, these like there's there's some of that to play around with, but but honestly, like our time and our money, um, we're really protective of these things. Um, and a lot of that is because we are swimming in water that tells us what to value. Um, and in this sort of Western American society, those, those personal freedoms, civic responsibility that you mentioned, these are sort of like fundamentals that built who we are as a country, this, these sort of ideals, but but they're not stat. They're dynamic and they've evolved. And that American dream has evolved. And of course, having having um capitalism sort of at the center, this sort of central enterprise of how we realize those things or how we think we realize those things. Um, it tells us what to value. It tells us um how much it costs, and it tells us what we need to sort of protect. And this idea of entitlement and autonomy and productivity, which I mean, that could be gosh, we could write whole other books about this, um, and relationships. But ultimately, these are the things feeding the mechanisms where we are again sort of negotiating that vulnerability that we were talking about before. This idea of um, well, I mean, I don't know, I can just scroll online or I can have, I can, I can look at pornography instead of like the messiness of negotiating like a sexual relationship with my spouse. Um, there's all of these things that are created to try to uh feed this idea of of this entitlement and this autonomy, which we don't really see as bad or wrong things because this is the water we're swimming in, this is what's shaping us. Um, so there are just numerous ways in which this is happening. I was just talking to a friend this morning about the productivity aspect where um this idea that uh, and of course we govern a higher education setting. Malcolm and I are, we're talking with college students all the time about this. There's this, there's this incredible pressure to have all of their education, everything they're pushing for, everything they're working for to be about contributing to this gross national product. And if they don't, do they matter? Right. And so there's there's thinking about productivity as it's shaping who we think we are and our value in the workforce and in the world. But the other metric we use to gauge people's success as adults is have you gotten married? And so these two arenas are where we are constantly fighting for our identity and our value. And if we're missing the mark, if we're not achieving what these sort of sort of messages tell us we need to achieve, there's this assumption that we're doing something wrong or that there might be something wrong with us. Um and uh unfortunately we we co-sign on this in our churches. We haven't done as much work in the local church to counter these narratives with the veracity that they require because we're just getting this all the time from everywhere. It is it is the culture that we are swimming in every day. So um yeah, it these again we can we can just go down so many rabbit jobs with those, but um but those those cultures are shaping us and what we we value in in incredible ways that we're not always aware of. But yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 56:19

What would what would your uh advice be to churches to try to uh encourage them to um help their people navigate um to having deeper, um more you know transformational um relationships rather than just kind of the surface superficial level ones.

SPEAKER_06: 56:37

Yeah. I mean, in some ways I think we have to recognize what's behind all this, what's shaping us, what's um I I think in some ways we get lazy just blaming sin. Not that sin isn't a problem. Sin is a very, very, very big problem, but we don't always talk about um what's driving sin. Like what is behind that? What is actually I mean, knowledge has never been the problem, but I know I need to be more patient. I know I need to be kinder, I know I need to be someone who uh gives more attention and curiosity to others. It's not that I don't know these things, but I still don't do them. And there are reasons why that need dismantling. And this is where I think the local church really plays a really important role because we know we know what is driving that, what's driving our fear, what's driving our shame, what's making it hard to make good choices. Um and for me, the simplest answer for clergy um is uh if you really want to focus on healthy relationships in your church, if you want to prioritize strong marriages, uh healthy families, um, and have something for everyone, focus on the art of friendship. Uh because first of all, that is a key part to successful marriages. Um so you're strengthening those. It's key to helping people learn how to become um I don't know, have adult relationships with their family. Like our students are navigating this, they're like, I'm I'm not a kid anymore. How do I do this with my parents and my siblings? Um, the art of friendship. How do we date better? The art of friendship. Um and then of course, how do we have friendships that are actually being intimate relationships that care for us in sort of that motif of family for those who aren't married or who are widowed or divorced? Um the art of friendship. Um learning to be better. It's a tide that raises all ships. And um and so I think that's that's a good place to start.

SPEAKER_05: 58:38

That's good.

SPEAKER_04: 58:39

I was I was channeling you uh on um I was on Esau's podcast on Monday, and we were talking about there's a New York Times article. Oh, this New York Times article that frustrated me. Um it was it was so it was a woman who had been married for something like 33 years, and it's and it's about how it's about essentially how her how her marriage ended. Uh, although they're although you read in the article that they're not actually legally divorced yet for tax reasons and for healthcare reasons. Uh but but she's out but she's out here. She's out here on the streets. Yeah. Um and and so and so, but but but what was but one of the things that was really interesting to me was um one of the things that she celebrates in that piece is like now that she's dating, she's she's talking about all of the new people, like all the new people that she's met, and like and and and all like and all and and all that. And and I and I couldn't and I couldn't help but think that you know this is this is also something that we do in our marriages where we place the entire weight, like all of our social weight on our spouse, and our spouse is not meant to is not meant to is not meant to bear all of that weight. And at the end of that podcast, I you know, I I was I was like, if there's one piece of advice I want to offer, it's like invest in your friendships. Like Friendships are really, really, really important. Like that. And like I'm talking about friendships, like the friendship of your marriage, sure. If you're if you're married, but also like friendship outside of your marriage. Like friendship is really, really, really important.

SPEAKER_06: 1:00:11

Um but I don't know marriages that succeed without it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:15

Yeah. Yeah. Um and so uh so yeah, but I was I was thinking about I was thinking about you and your and your book as I was as I as I was even reading through that opinion piece, because I'm like, what like all of these things, like all of these like people that you've met in relationship, like you could have done this, like there was nothing about marriage that should have stopped you from being able to being able to build these being being able to actually build friendships. Um but but but but but for some of us when when folks get into especially when for some folks when they get into marriages they think, okay, like I did, like I did it. I've got like I've got my person now. Like now this is the only other person that I need to be spending time with or interacting with. And that's a and that's a recipe, that's a recipe for disaster.

SPEAKER_06: 1:01:02

Oh yeah. No, that actually came up in the talk that I gave up in Nashville as well, talking about like what gets in the way of friendships. We replace them. We replace friendships with other types of relationships. And one of the most common ones is uh romantic relationships, dating and marriage. And um, in the evangelical world, we've got our own flavor of this because in an effort to protect marriages, we have things like the Billy Graham rule and other things that we've been using to try to save marriages from infidelity, which is super important and super like we should never take that for granted. Um, but it's also one of those things where it it's um made it particularly difficult for men to build robust relationships that are actually going to enhance their marriage. And what what I try to tell people is sort of one of the ways to gauge um whether there is a problem in an intimate relationship. And this and this goes for marriage, friendships, and family. Um if you have uh if you have a friendship that is not healthy for your marriage, that is that is damaging your marriage, then there's something wrong with that friendship. Likewise, if you are married in a way that is damaging your friendships, if there's something in your married life that is making your friendships uh difficult to have, then there's a problem in the marriage, right? It's and the same with like family and friendships, whereas if if like if your family is damaging your marriage, then there's a there's a problem with the family dynamic and and vice versa, if your marriage is damaging your ability to have relationships with your family. So we're like these are I think are important gauges because um we need others. I I I don't talk about this much in the book, but um but I I try to talk about it publicly when I can. Uh so my husband and I just went through a season uh prior to coming to Texas where we um our our marriage almost just got destroyed and and a huge symptom of that as we went through counseling, as we started like unpacking everything, we realized we had been without a church for nine years, we had been without a close community group. We were used to having friends and people who were a part of the healthy ecosystem of our marriage. And when it's just the two of you, I know there's that whole romantic like just us big world, but but it's a lie, it's a lie because when you're inside, there's only certain things that you can see and there's a lot that you can't see. Um and things broke down from within uh because we lacked any any healthy ecosystem of of friendships of people who were close enough to us to to be a part of our marriage in the way they had been years before. And so one of the things when we moved um that we knew was a second like a high priority for us was we were gonna find a church, um, but we were also going to start intentionally building towards having those friendships again because we knew our marriage uh depended on it, that it it wouldn't survive otherwise, and we saw the effects of it. We saw that happen in real time. So um we have to find out a way to do this without sexualizing every relationship in our life.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:55

Yeah. So you you have this great thing that you know, like we have a romance idolatry problem. Um and you you you you uh referenced the When Harry Met Sally movie um in in the book, which is fantastic. Um I love that movie. Yes. Um and I I see this everywhere that it it's we've elevated the romantic relationships to be so much more important in every storyline. Um and you even reference like like the the friendship relationships in that movie or subsidiary subsidiary or you know, you know, jokes to that. Um more um like very recent um or kind of like right now. Um do you watch Stranger Things? Um I don't.

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:36

My husband does, so I know what's going on.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:38

Well there's uh there's there's this there's these two guys in uh two kids in the the show um that I assumed were just solid friends, and we had this great friend storyline. Are you spoiling anything? No, apparently if you watch it, everyone knows it but me.

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:53

Um but but it's only being spoiled for slim.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:58

But Will is one of these kids, um, and he has a uh an attraction to his friend Mike. Um, and so the whole time I'm like, like, he just loves his friend. There's just a good storyline of friendship. And my wife was like, no, they will is attracted to Mike. And I'm like, no, it's like Sam and Frodo here. And then like the season five comes out, it's like, no, it's obvious. Like he like, I was like, uh, okay, sure. I was just like, I loved that was like it was not the romantic side of it. It was like just a solid friendship. And I just I think about like Sam and Frodo as like maybe the one storyline of like they love each other, they're friends. Are there other storylines that seem to uh not not many?

SPEAKER_06: 1:05:39

Yeah. I love you, Slim. I mean, Lord of the Rings is is hard to say the exemplar, but you know, it's funny, we're watching, we're re-watching Lord of the Rings right now, it's one of our advent practices. Um, you know, it's very spiritual. But um, but we we like I was thinking about this yesterday because we're watching the appendices because we're nerds, and um they were talking about uh the Aragorn Arwen relationship that made into the movies. They had to really pull from the appendices, like they had to dig to get any kind of romantic storyline of any kind into the movies. Yeah, because Tolkien just didn't. Yeah. Um not that that wasn't important to him. I mean, the whole that storyline, the the gravestones of he and his wife with Sharon and Luthian on the on the headstones, like obviously these this is a mythology that's it was important to him and his marriage, and he wrote about it. But he just romance is not it's not part of the plot. And the the movies had to dig to get it in, um, which I find which I find telling. But uh yeah, it's always relegated, it's always a supporting like part for the main line, which is romance, which is why the people in our churches, especially ones who aren't married, are are stressed. It feels like they're stressed.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:50

It's being told that they're not full citizens.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:53

And that's so frustrating, and that's also so frustrating because it it wasn't a part of Jesus' life. Jesus.

SPEAKER_06: 1:06:59

No, but I do I so I have this friend, we're we're really sarcastic all the time with each other, and we talk about Jesus, Jesus' wife, Becky, and we just talk about it. It's like, oh yeah, well, no, I mean, Jesus had a really strong marriage, and like Becky picks up the kids from soccer practice. Like, I mean, it's like we just like we have a whole thing we do, especially when we get like especially when people online are talking about like find someone, get married, have lots of kids, you know, sort of this evangelical narrative, and we're like just like Jesus. Just like Jesus. And I mean, such a such a picture of what we're going for right there, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:35

So let let's let's build up friendships. Um, and so we're gonna start here. Um, we're gonna ask you as our friendship coach. Right. Um, if Malcolm and I want to be better friends, that's that's that's a big if. Yeah um but if we want to be better friends, do I just come to Malcolm and say, hey, let's get intimate? Um what what would you recommend?

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:58

Do you think we can't be friends?

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:59

What's wrong? We've been talking about intimacy and we've been saying how important that is, and so I'm saying, hey Malcolm, let's get intimate. Uh-huh. What what would you what would you suggest? Is that the best path forward?

SPEAKER_06: 1:08:13

Yeah, no, I don't think in any way that is what I would ever recommend in.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:19

I will say, I will say I we are all a little bit dumber for the last 10 seconds.

SPEAKER_06: 1:08:24

I award you no point without a Marcaniers on that. Um, uh there's in in C.S. Lewis's Four Loves, um in his chapter on friendship, he spends an exorbitant amount of time talking about homophobia because he recognizes something even back then that has only been more exacerbated today, which is guys have to put all of this emphasis of their need for intimacy on women uh in relationships because the ability to have friendships with other men is so fraught. It is so like just just even that little example of like let's be intimate, it's like oh no, like you know, just like it's so instantly shut down so difficult for men on so many levels. But boy, what what what an incredible thing if if the local church suddenly became the place where we were actually teaching men how to have relationships with each other that that that fed that platonic need for intimacy and connection with others that redistributed their humanity across the sexes to both men and women um to where they can feel seen and loved um and and that they have people and that it's not all just channeled into a romantic relationship. Um so I I I don't know the the the the five-step plan for that, but I will say um right now we're seeing sort of a a divergence in churches where women are either leaving the church or heading towards more what they would consider progressive churches, men are gravitating in droves towards what are often um politically centered uh right uh leaning churches ideologically, which is going to be really difficult for the future of Christian marriage. Let's just say that out loud. But I believe that the church or denomination that can find a way to have both men and women feel utilized and seen and dignified and wanted not only will say the future of Christian marriage in many ways, but will be a place where people can again come together and find each other and feel that that there's multiple avenues in which they're being cared for. Um that's that's what I'd like to see.

SPEAKER_05: 1:10:35

Yeah. Now your example of that of uh men leaning rightward and uh women leaning uh leftward, uh, we've seen uh a few times uh where we're like, oh, this is how how to how to navigate this, um, not just in a church, but in a in a marriage is uh is um you know complicated.

SPEAKER_04: 1:10:52

I yeah. I know we're running out of time, but Slim Slim has an anecdote about uh about when a friend uh told him that that that they that they loved him and he and he and he responded in uh and he responded in a hilarious way. And he told this story in a sermon, so it's perfectly fine for him to also share it on the public on this podcast.

SPEAKER_05: 1:11:23

Where are the phones to go on vacation?

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:25

Watching, watching the video of him sending this to the sermon. Come on, come on, it's not gonna practice it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:11:31

We said each other's sermons, but he was on vacation, so he didn't read ahead of time. And so I just I was like, I'll share it. And Malcolm's on a phone call the time was like Ed and he's like, I love you, man. And I was just like, YouTube. I did not know what to say. And I was like, I can't say I love you, man. Cross is the Rubacon. And so then like later, I thought about it, I was like, why did I do that? And then he said it again. What did I say? I thought, love you, bro! Like I just I couldn't say I had to like keep with some distance by like the bro somehow it just It's the it's the Bud Light commercial years ago.

SPEAKER_06: 1:12:18

Do you remember this? Like two guys are fishing or wherever, and one one guy goes, I love you, man. And the other guy says, You're not getting my Bud Light. It's a beer commercial. Like it it it it like exactly hits a nerve.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:12:33

I love you, man.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:34

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06: 1:12:36

Some funny line that diffuses the awkwardness I feel in this moment. You know, that's great. We worked through it. We worked through it. We did, we worked through it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:12:45

We're we're friends, we are friends. But you you mentioned something that I I had a curiosity by reading the book, and you mentioned already the Mike Pence rule, Billy Graham rule. Um growing up, I was you know taught the Billy Graham rule. Um, and you already mentioned like obviously want to you know try to preserve um people from falling into temptation, things like this. Um can men and women be friends?

SPEAKER_06: 1:13:09

Yeah, and not in the when Harry Met Sally uh way.

SPEAKER_05: 1:13:13

Um can't how does this work with it like being like a good like and I I see this I do there's there's there's the bear um um show, which I you reference as well. Um but there's some great male-female friendships in that that I'm like, yes, I love that that's like beautiful. Um is this possible in the church?

SPEAKER_06: 1:13:33

It is, it is, and and I think there've been people in the side B world that have helped me put some language to this in about recovering a real beautiful picture of siblinghood. Um, which again, we have as the church, I mean, our baptism is what centers us in our ability to do this ultimately. Like the that's that's where we start. We we use this motif as the family of God, which comes directly out of scripture to understand our relationship to one another in Christ. Um, but this idea of recovering true siblinghood and thinking about what does that mean for us to to have this friendship that looks like family um but is not sexualized the way family should not be sexualized, and is allows for people to be full humans and for marriages to be the place where we have that sexual expression, um, so that we're not ignoring it, but but to be able to have these places to where they're really defined. Um as a woman who's been called into vocations that mostly have men in them, I just had to figure this out on the flyer so I couldn't do my job. Um but I work, um, I work with a lot of men and and whenever I come into a new situation, um, I have learned that the the men I'm gonna be working close most closely with we start off by saying the way to protect ourselves, the way to make this relationship really good is to prioritize friendship and friendships friendships with our families. Um so there are colleagues in my life that I see socially regularly with my husband, and we've built this friendship in in this capacity um where these people are my brothers, essentially. And um, and we we we we take hold of and define that relationship. Um not that the enemy can't distort or you know, abuse anything. Um but ultimately I feel like there's there's ways to be in a relationship with the opposite sex that it doesn't just immediately devolve into something sexual. And romance idolatry has made that hard. We have to push back against that. Um, but it's a form of objectification, yeah. That's what it is, especially for those of us who are married, and these are other people outside of our marriage. Um it is an expression of chastity, right? Celibate people uh who are single practicing celibacy is a form of chastity the same way I, as a married woman, practice chastity by not going around and sleeping with whoever. Um like there's there's always self-control, there's always discipline involved. Um, and I think friendship makes that easier and makes that harder. Um but we also have to do it well, and we don't have a lot of cultural liturgies that help us know how to be friends well. Again, I figure the local church is another great place to be able to. I don't know any other institution that has the mechanisms or the the language or the purpose to be able to instruct on this.

SPEAKER_05: 1:16:24

That's so good. I mean, I just think it's so important for us to to give people that uh that vision of like a better way of relating with one another, to not sexualize one another, so it feels like you can't have these friendships to be able to see one another in their humanity um as not as um um temptations to avoid or uh whatnot, still using wisdom. And as you said, like you know, have some good guardrails or whatnot to say like let's meet each other's families, because that's what you would do with friends. You would want to get to know them, right? Um so that makes sense. Um but that I I love that. That's great. Malcolm, you have any more questions? I'm good.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:00

This has been a wonderful episode. Uh it's doing great.

SPEAKER_06: 1:17:03

Uh yeah, we'll do the off, we'll do the off mic second later.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:06

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:08

The post show. How do you break up with a friend who calls you out on his podcast? Let's have that question.

SPEAKER_06: 1:17:18

What do you do when you tell someone you love them to share a podcast?

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:23

They say you do. Those are for our paid subscribers. I'm like, uh subscribe to our Patreon.

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:36

Aaron, um, how can people find you? Um if they want to hear more from you, learn more from you.

SPEAKER_06: 1:17:42

Yeah, um, I uh the book is anywhere books are sold. Um support your local bookstore. This is uh I I hope the book blesses you. I I really obviously highly recommend it, but it changed my life and I think it can change yours. That's my that's my pitch. Um I'm I mean, I I the amount of hubris that it takes to say this, I I have a website. I have a personal website. Well, I need to pull up a little bit in the back of my mouth when I uh say this. It's just it's just the worst. Um but it every yes, everything.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:14

What's the website?

SPEAKER_06: 1:18:15

AaronFmonas.com. But you can you can sort of connect and find everything's there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:21

There you go. Yes. No.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:23

As an author, you probably have to have that. That's that is a good idea. I do. I do.

SPEAKER_06: 1:18:26

Like every time you have to say it publicly, I'm like it's great.

SPEAKER_04: 1:18:30

I have a website, just keep it easy for people.

SPEAKER_06: 1:18:33

Everybody wants to know. Everybody wants to find out about you, Aaron. So now you get it. Yeah, the minister is linked.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:38

That's great. Are you on uh are you on uh any of the the socials?

SPEAKER_06: 1:18:41

I'm on the socials, yeah. I'm on uh Aaron F. Mona's um Instagram, Facebook, different, yeah. All right, well places any places where Malcolm is. That's right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:53

Where you are, there I shall be as well.

SPEAKER_06: 1:18:55

I'm still on the the the X, the yeah, the the place formerly known as Twitter.

SPEAKER_04: 1:19:01

Yeah, that place. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_06: 1:19:03

But as long as Beth Moore is there, like I will never leave that dumpster virus.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:06

Amen to that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:08

It is by the dumpster virus.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:09

Amen.

SPEAKER_04: 1:19:11

What's it get the book? Once again, the book is knowing and being known. For all our intimate relationships. It's a great book. I encourage all of you to buy it, buy multiple copies, get it for your friends, get it for people who you want to be your friends, and be like, read this book. This describes the kind of relationship I want to have.

SPEAKER_06: 1:19:32

Not sure how they're gonna react.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:35

This is, I feel like subtweeting to me, but uh I'll approve of it because I love it. Uh Eric, thank you so much. Um, uh, all you who've been listening along, um, thank you for following along with us. Uh, we'll make sure we put all those uh links uh uh in the show notes so you can uh go buy her book or follow her. Uh check out her website. Um but the best way to support this uh work is to give it a rating and review. Uh it's Helps others find the podcast and help to hear from more uh wonderful authors like Aaron and more other uh great theologians like that. So um thank you so much. We'll see you guys in a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:10

Bye y'all. Bye.