SPEAKER_05: 0:23

Hello, universe. Hey yo. Hey yo. Welcome to Theology Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your host, Slim and Malcolm. And today we're going to ask if God pardons like a president, should that worry us? Dun dun dun. So we're gonna we're gonna discuss pardons, uh, presidents, power, and pickles.

SPEAKER_01: 0:54

Mostly because I feel like Slim just sees this podcast as an opportunity to talk about politics. Uh cause we don't have uh because we don't have a space otherwise.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04

It's not it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06

I think I think I think politics is forcing itself uh-huh inserting itself more so into our our lives that I want to be able to navigate it with our church and connect it with scripture.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21

Okay, great. All right, in that case.

SPEAKER_05: 1:24

My my co-pastor has given us the green light. We shall continue. Um before that, uh Malcolm, this is the uh we were recording this the week before Christmas uh 2025. Uh so there will not be a podcast next week. Um, but we wanted to kind of look back at the year and say, how how did we do? Yeah. What was going on? And uh in the light of uh Spotify's unwrapped for the year, um, what were your top categories for um your your most listened to genres?

SPEAKER_01: 1:54

Yes, my genres were math rock, Gregorian chant, new disco, smooth jazz, and soundtrack music. Soundtrack meaning largely anime soundtracks. That's fine. Look. Look. I have very eclectic taste. I'm a very eclectic taste.

SPEAKER_05: 2:12

This man is.

SPEAKER_02: 2:12

I have very eclectic taste. All right.

SPEAKER_01: 2:14

Math rock, math rock, a Gregorian chance.

SPEAKER_02: 2:17

Uh, uh, okay. So to to clarify Mathieu. Okay. Mathrock.

SPEAKER_01: 2:23

You're so weird. Okay. Accurate, but accurate, but okay, look. So this is this is this is this is the this is the description. This is the description of math rock. It's they say indie alternative rock style. It's like, it's like progressive, it's like progressive metal. But anyway, uh it's characterized, it's characterized by complex, atypical rhythmic structures, counterpoint odd time signatures, and extended chords. Um it is basically what I what I like about it is is is specifically a lot of the technical guitar guitar work. That's my favorite part of it. But anyway, the Gregorian chant thing is largely because my my top song of the year was uh a choir singing the Jesus Prayer, and it's a Byzantine Catholic church, so they're like, oh, that's oh that's that's Gregorian. Most of my stuff is like orthodox chant, though. So that's that's but that's that that explains my one and two. My my hype music is anime music, specifically from my hero academia, because it's great. So that's that's that's the only thing.

SPEAKER_05: 3:28

Hype music. You're like, all right, I'm going in to to write this article.

SPEAKER_01: 3:32

Literally anything.

SPEAKER_05: 3:33

And I and I've got to listen to some anime music.

SPEAKER_01: 3:35

If I got back in the if I got back in the gym, uh it would be if I were if I were considering it. Uh it's it's it's great.

SPEAKER_02: 3:44

New Year's resolution's right around the corner.

SPEAKER_01: 3:46

It's great lifting, it's great lifting music too. It's just great, it's great. It's great. That's hilarious. It's epic. It's great.

SPEAKER_05: 3:52

Okay, okay. Um, yeah, my my my year wrapped was not helpful because uh I share the church's Spotify account. And so it is um what is being played most consistently on Sundays is background worship music or uh royalty free headline, and uh so that just it skews everything where I'm like, this isn't helpful. Um but the answer would probably have been um 90s rock, just you know, per pearl jam, uh smashing pumpkins. Man, I've been enjoying some smashing pumpkins this year. Okay. They're drama. All right, killing it. All right, yeah. So um anything else uh happened this at looking back at 2025 that you think, hey, that was a good thing that you look back.

SPEAKER_01: 4:35

Um I released a book. That's a oh that's sorry. What uh is this news? Breaking news? As a matter of fact, uh the anti-greed gospel, which was recently named the 2025 Inglewood Review of Books Book of the Year. Yeah, so I did. I am currently an award-winning author. Yeah, you are. If you didn't think I was insufferable before, I will be insufferable from now on.

SPEAKER_05: 5:03

Uh award-winning the Inglewood Book of the Year.

SPEAKER_01: 5:07

Englewood Review of Books, Book of the Year. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05: 5:09

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 5:10

It's pretty great. Oh, also, uh, and they're doing an order before. They're still doing an order. They are also doing a Reader's Choice Award. What is that? Where you name the books that you as the readers enjoyed the most. So I am not content with just being their institutional book of the year. I also want to be the book of the year of the people. So vote for me preferably four or five times.

SPEAKER_03: 5:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 5:35

Um with different emails. I assume there's a link that we can put in the show notes. We can we can I think I think it's still I think it's still ongoing.

SPEAKER_00: 5:43

Hopefully.

SPEAKER_05: 5:44

Sweet. Sweet. All right, Mal. Malcolm, yeah. We have uh your favorite segment.

SPEAKER_00: 5:52

Uh I am going to have to consider uh renaming the segment.

SPEAKER_05: 6:01

Okay. Because this is my uh I told Malcolm before we were recorded, I said, I'm gonna break some news on the podcast, and he was like, What what is it? I was like, Oh, you're gonna have to wait. Um dear. I was listening to um, have you ever heard of Ezra Klein? I have. Um he's a uh we'll say he works for New York Times. Uh he has a um books podcast. Yeah. Um well respected, um more progressive person, but um seems to be critical of the left more. Anyway, um he had uh he had a podcast uh interviewing Zadie Smith and uh it was called uh Zadie Smith on Populist Frauds and Flip Phones. And uh they go into how how terrible flip phones have been for our society. Fair um and how terrible social media has been. And I'm just sitting there listening, I'm like, Yep, I've been saying this for a while, I've been saying it for a while. Uh-huh. After listening to that episode, I deleted all my social media apps. Oh wow. 100%. Oh wow. That was on Tuesday, today's Thursday. Yeah. And I've been like having like little like little with withdrawals. Oh wow. Because the addiction, the dopamine hits. Yeah, like what do I do with that free time? Yeah. That I was gonna, you know, look at you. Dude, I'm feeling a little little disconnected from the world. So I've I still have Facebook and Twitter on my computer. Okay. So it takes work to get on your computer to and you don't yeah. Um but it's been good. Nice! It's been really good. I'm like, I think I'm happier. I think That's awesome. Because all the research shows like how unhappy all these social media uh companies like like make humanity. Um, as well as just like the doom scrolling and just seeing all like the terrible things that are happening in the world. Doesn't mean I I still want to know. So I I was like, I still won't I'm I mainly I use Twitter for like um information, like what's happening in our world. And so I was like, all right, I'm gonna have to replace that with something that maybe more positive way of getting information. So I was just like, all right, let's download some news apps, like I can actually have news without it just being doom scrolling.

SPEAKER_01: 8:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 8:09

So man, it's good. All right. I'm loving it. I'm loving it.

SPEAKER_01: 8:12

Um well I I'll probably delete everything except for Instagram.

SPEAKER_05: 8:16

So come on, come on. If uh if anyone wants to join me, I think this is the thing. This is the thing that I think we all struggle with with phones um as well as social media, is there is a a mass um amount of people on the the apps that it feels the the FOMO gets real and you feel left out that it if you are uh choosing to go a choosing to go to loan, then it can be very lonely. But if you're all in a group like a church saying, Hey, let's take let's take technology serious and its effects on us, and uh the way the social media companies are designed to um make you angrier, make you um need to watch the next video for that next hit, um you can find that community elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01: 9:04

So Alright, I just deleted all of my things except for this.

SPEAKER_05: 9:08

Yes! Yes, I love it. Hey, if you're listening and you want to delete, let us know that you deleted your some of your apps. I would love that. And again, it's not against these apps, I think it's against these companies who are designed up it's profit and they're trying to profit off of us being addicted to this. It's true. I have been more present with my boys in my life. Look at you because I'm no we go like uh it. I'm telling you. So it's good. Uh things that I you kind of know to be true, and I I've just been like, well, no, well, the justifications. You're like, well, as a pastor, like I I should be able to be involved in people's lives and through this, because that's where everyone's at. But I also know some people in our in our in our congregation who do the flip phone um because of some of this as well. And so there's just other ways of getting around this. So I'm I'm a big fan. I'm not a big fan. So I'm I'm still gonna be on Twitter. We may still have terrible tweets um because I'm gonna get it through the you have to go to the physical computer to do it.

SPEAKER_02: 10:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 10:06

Um, but I don't know. I also hate Twitter.

SPEAKER_02: 10:10

Terrible news. Terrible news.

SPEAKER_05: 10:13

What how do you say that with making it um um what's the alliterate?

SPEAKER_01: 10:18

Uh how do you do that in the first my f the first thing I was gonna say was nasty news, but we don't want we don't we don't want that. Nobody wants that.

SPEAKER_02: 10:26

Nasty news.

SPEAKER_05: 10:29

Remember that. Beyoncé, uh, what was uh their group before? Um uh Destiny's Child. Destiny's Child. They got that song that nasty, put your clothes on. I told you. Don't walk out that door without your clothes on.

SPEAKER_02: 10:47

I don't know. I don't know. I don't remember that. Oh gosh. Oh no. Oh, nasty girl. Okay, yeah. Oh my god. Okay, okay, so I'm not gonna put the with the destiny child. Dude, how the two deep cuts.

SPEAKER_05: 11:12

Yeah, my Spotify rap will be pretty diverse. I guess there's Pearl Jam inky bis, but there's uh I'd love me some 90s raps. Pick enough uh and our uh white white elephant Christmas party.

SPEAKER_02: 11:23

Andrea Bearfield. So I was doing a podcast yesterday, and I I put this on our Facebook, and uh uh and Andrea Bearfield was like, I cracked up when I saw that when I saw that.

SPEAKER_05: 11:36

So for for context, uh for our white elephant gift party, I created a uh um a full media pack, uh, a CD and a poster of uh Malcolm with his favorite line that he starts many sermons off with uh is gird your loins. And that was the the title of his new album, his second album that he has now, uh, with all the the list of 13 songs in there. It was hilarious. And then I I I asked Chat GBT to uh to write the the lyrics to to these songs um and and put those inside the the Did you make the the song titles? I made the song titles. Yeah, yeah. No, I made the song titles. Yeah, yeah. Um so oh my goodness. It was fun. It was fun.

SPEAKER_02: 12:18

Um I love you so much, though.

SPEAKER_05: 12:22

Um all right. Um speaking of of nasty news, I don't know if we're gonna go into that. We're not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02: 12:30

We're not gonna do that. We'll find something else alliterative.

SPEAKER_05: 12:34

Okay. Uh, but moving to it's it's been uh it's been a dark, dark uh week, uh weekend. Um on Sunday, two shooters um opened on uh opened um fire um on the beach of Bondi Beach in Australia and it was at a um two they slaughtered 15 people uh in this anti-Semitic mass shooting targeting Jews celebrating Hanukkah at Bondi Beach. Uh more than twenty people are still being treated in hospitals. Uh all of those killed by the gunmen who have been identified so far were Jewish. Um it included a 10-year-old girl as well as an 87-year-old Holocaust survivor. Like surviving the Holocaust to have this happen. Like that's just that's wild. Um and so like that there there's your your terrible tweet already, just kind of like sharing what happened there. That was just a horrific thing. Um and then what I saw um and maybe maybe many of you ha saw as well, because this is the world we live in, you can see open video footage of this this um happening alive, and there was a video footage of um the man who took down the shooter. And it was like when I saw it, I was like, that is the picture of nonviolence that I have been trying to communicate to people because a 43-year-old man named Ahmed Al-Ahmed, a fruit shop owner, tackles the shooter, comes up from behind, tackles the shooter, takes the guy's gun away, and has the the shooter on the ground who's just killed 15 people and doesn't kill him. Like the restraint he shows there is what I'm I think we want to say, like this is what we said we say when we're saying nonviolence is he is willing to actively attack the shooter, wrestle him, yeah, disarm him. So we're not saying nonviolence is not that, yeah. But then to say, but I don't have the authority to take life. Yeah. I I just was like, what what bravery, what courage that he shows there? Yeah um and but also the just the restraint and and love for life. I don't know. What did you see that video?

SPEAKER_00: 14:58

No, I didn't, but uh no, it's yeah, it's well.

SPEAKER_05: 15:02

Um so that that happened, um, as well as you hear about the the Brown University shooting.

SPEAKER_00: 15:08

Um they still don't know who did that one.

SPEAKER_05: 15:10

I still don't know who did that one.

SPEAKER_00: 15:12

They let the guy go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 15:15

Horrific. And then um Rob Reiner. Um it was a sad story. Um if anyone grew up um watching some of his movies. The famous movie director, uh, Rob Reiner, uh, did When Harry Met Sally, did um As Good As It Gets. Um did a did a lot of um a lot of movies. Um A Few Good Men, I didn't realize was his until later. Um but he and his wife were uh murdered in their home, uh stabbed to death, and I think everyone believes it to be by their son, which is just wild. Which and Rob Reiner became a uh kind of an outspoken um um uh on politics in the last I don't know how long, um maybe twenty years. Um but he recently did a um a video on on on Christian nationalism um that I thought was was helpful, um kind of critiquing that movement and he himself um um not not claiming Christianity, but I thought it was it was helpful. Um but the the thing that struck me was just like the the amount of violence that just was going on here and then this this happened and uh did you see Trump's tweet about Rob Reiner?

SPEAKER_00: 16:30

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 16:35

It it was it was everywhere because I I I saw so many people denouncing it. Yeah, and yet it seems uh all the people who like the president, the vice president, the speaker of the house, all just looked past it. Um and the well, the president himself doubled down on it when he was asked about it. But it's of course that's that's his tweet was a very sad thing last night happened in Hollywood. Rob Reiner, tortured, struggling, but once very talented movie director and comedy star has passed away together with his wife, Michelle, reportedly due to the Southern There A very sad thing has happened. Um but they says reportedly due to the anger he caused others through his massive, unyielding, and incurable affliction with a mind-crippling disease known as Trump derangement syndrome.

SPEAKER_01: 17:21

It's just part okay, so part of it is part of it is the uh the the derangement is not about other people. The derangement is when you think that everything is about you. Yes. And when everything has to be about you. Yes. And you can't even mourn another person without it being in some way about you. That's like that's a pathology.

SPEAKER_03: 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:46

I'm not I'm not here to diagnose anybody. All I'm saying is that everything is about you. There was that thing last we had that uh um he had an address last night. Just one of the most every time I listen, every time I listen to this man for an extended period of time, I'm like, why am I doing this?

SPEAKER_05: 18:07

See, I missed it. I'm not on Twitter. Yeah, don't.

SPEAKER_01: 18:09

I I was watching it on the like, I was watching it live, uh, and I was just reminded of why I'd never do that. Um I mean whenever whenever anybody talks about lowering prices 500, 600%, I'm like, you you're literally just making things up.

SPEAKER_05: 18:23

Oh, we're gonna get paid.

SPEAKER_01: 18:24

You're literally just making things up. It's just a few minutes of just you making things up. But apparently, apparently America's back, gas is under$2 a gallon, and prices have prices have dropped. Nice. America's back. America essentially has been made great again. Nice so nice. Anyway, man, it's just it's just but but the other but the but the thing about kind of everything having to everything has to come back to you and how awesome you are. It's just it's tiring.

SPEAKER_05: 18:55

It is tiring. It's tiring. I mean, he he is it's tiring because he's in this position of power that we all we all have to kind of still look at him. Like we probably all have people in our lives that that live this way where it's all about them. Um and there's times you want to say what you just said, like, it's not it's not about you. Um it's just not. And like and that's okay. And to like, yeah, to not to not uh uh make people feel bad about it, I think on one level, isn't that great that it's not all about you? Like so like there's times when you're like, oh, did I misspeak at that party, or did I say something bad? You're like, I bet no one's thought about it.

SPEAKER_02: 19:33

Nobody's thinking about you.

SPEAKER_01: 19:38

You you think yeah, you you spend more time thinking about what other people think about you than those other people do actually thinking about you.

SPEAKER_05: 19:47

Right. Yeah, but be free. Be free. Just be free. Uh so Donald, if you're listening, um, just be free. It's it's okay. Obviously, he's not listening, but if if someone else Struggles with this, like, yeah, it's okay. You don't have to worry about it. It's okay. We all everyone, like, this is like the selfish thing. Everyone selfishly thinks about themselves. Yeah. And so they're probably less thinking about you because they're thinking about themselves.

SPEAKER_01: 20:13

Yeah. People, people really don't have all the time that you think that they have to think about you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 20:21

Um, before we talk about uh pardon, um and you know, all the other things. The here's a here's another here's another tweet. Um this is uh uh kind of a uh for an interview happening uh on Meet the Press with uh Rand Paul, a Republican from Kentucky. Uh I said, Do you support the GOP redistricting? Um and Rand Paul said, it's gonna lead to more civil tension or violence. If 35% of Texas is solid Democrat and they have zero representation, how does that make Democrats feel? They feel they aren't represented. Uh both parties do it. If California has no GOP or one GOP representative, people will think the electoral process isn't working, and we need to think about that before we all do this. Yeah. I I thought that was a very like great point because I've been seeing the gerrymanor where we live in Texas, and the the they just redistrict um mid, you know, uh um mid-year, uh mid the the 10 year census um for the sole purpose of getting five more um districts, more seats in the House um to help the Republicans. And I just like I hated it here, and I know what California is doing to try to counterbalance that, and I hate it there too. I'm like, I just gerrymandering just it feels wrong. Now, my question here, Malcolm, um, because it it is what it is, we have no power to stop it. The Supreme Court has said, like, no, they can do that. Um how do we think about gerrymandering um biblically? It does the do you think the Bible has anything to say about gerrymandering?

SPEAKER_01: 22:00

I mean No, because I mean there's nothing in the Bible that says that we have to operate in a constitutional democracy. So like there's not there's nothing there's nothing in the Bible that gives any account of uh the best way to organize a the best way to organize a state.

SPEAKER_05: 22:19

So you don't think it's that's where I'm like I I agree, but it like also it feels immoral.

SPEAKER_01: 22:24

I mean we can say it's unethical. We can say it's unjust. I mean I think if the if the goal if the goal is um if the goal is proper representation, like even just from the basis of even just from the basis of intent, because the the goal is not to more justly represent the um kind of the positions of the people throughout the state. The goal is to win. The goal is for your party to win. And so when you see basically it's your che I mean for California, like you're cheating because everybody else is cheating, and the only way for you to win is to cheat like everybody else.

SPEAKER_05: 23:08

Yeah, they they won't say it that way, they'll say we're fighting fire with fire, right?

SPEAKER_01: 23:11

Which is yeah, it's the thing. I mean you could, I mean you could even think about it. I'll get uh I'll get I'll get controversial. Uh you can I mean you could I mean you can think about it like uh like in terms of college athletics. So we might turn this box. You see other people, you see other people in some ways cheating, and you're just like, well, it's the only way to get ahead, so clearly this is what we gotta do. No, no, you can also just insist on doing the right thing, and the consequences are gonna be what they may. Like other people's uh uh other people's moral unscrupulosity doesn't give you license just because you want to win, because winning is the goal. Winning is not the goal.

SPEAKER_05: 23:50

That that that that is literally happening, I know uh all across, but like particularly I know of uh Clemson and Dabo Sweeney at Clemson University is getting under all this fire when he's saying we are not gonna contact other college athletes until the open uh signing period, the transfer portal opens. Yeah, it's it it's illegal and it's immoral for us to do so now. And every other coach, uh I think uh even if it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Every other coach, coach uh uh what's his name of Missouri just said like just the the other day, he's like, No, like there is no rules. There is no like like because there's no enforcement period.

SPEAKER_03: 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 24:25

And so he's going like where where you're like, where you're talking about of the well, everyone's doing it, so I gotta do it.

SPEAKER_03: 24:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 24:30

And Dabba's like, well, I'm just gonna do it because it's the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_03: 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 24:33

And they're gonna suffer for it, and they have suffered for it.

SPEAKER_03: 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 24:35

And so now we think about this with gerrymandering. Um, like, what's the right thing? And that's where I'm like, is it right? But I think I think the I think Yeah, so I I think the people should like we set up this system. The people should pick their politicians, the politicians shouldn't pick their people, and that's what's happening. They're like, Yeah, no, we want these people uh to be our voting for us.

SPEAKER_03: 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 24:54

Um so yeah, the Bible doesn't mention gerrymandering marine explicitly, um, but it does speak to the I think the moral issues that it raises. Um, you know, like I I think of like the that Proverbs 11, like a false balance is an abomination to the Lord, but an accurate weight is his delight. Now, it that's about like kind of commerce um and and what was happening there. Um, but I think it applies to any system designed to to skew the outcomes. Um and so I think it's it's you know, as you said, like it Bible speaks on justice, you know, Deuteronomy 16, 19, you shall not pervert justice, uh, or Isaiah 10, woe to those who make unjust laws. It it feels like we are um skewing things to show favoritism towards one group of people, which also the Bible speaks about as well, than others. And so whenever it happened in Texas, I was like, I'm against it. And as when people were saying we're gonna have it in California or we're gonna you know respond in uh Illinois, um, I thought positively I saw Indiana voted against that and said we're not gonna do this. And I but I think what Rand Paul said here was well well said. Like when people don't feel represented, what are they gonna do? When you feel like you're the system that we operate in is a you know democratic republic and we're going to vote. And if you're like your voting doesn't do anything.

SPEAKER_01: 26:14

People are already losing, people are already, I think, losing, losing faith in in the two parties, uh, in the two parties anyway. And so uh so and and this could, at least for some people, this could exacerbate even that because it'll it gives even more reason to just say, oh, like both of these parties are essentially just two sides of the same coin. It's already true globally that both that both of our both of our political parties are in a sense when you look in the global context, they're both essentially right of center. Um in the global context. Yeah. Um especially insofar as well, I mean, especially in how beholden they are to corporate interest. Um but uh but yeah, so so but uh but this could and so and and there and there are also the Republicans who um who have spoken to the I think it was think it was even Ted Ted Cruz who said something like this about about um about some of the stuff that's going on in uh in California, but but but basically talking about how you know if or no no no or maybe it was talking about Texas. I forget. But basically the cot but the but the content of it was look, if we keep if we keep doing this, when we're out of power, they're just the other party is just gonna respond in revenge. Yeah, no one's gonna be able to do that. Because like that's what this that's what this is. Like this is just this just becomes a tit for tat, yeah, a tit for tat kind of kind of battle, which doesn't end well for anybody.

SPEAKER_05: 27:50

Well, let's let's move into the discussion on pardons.

SPEAKER_04: 27:55

Dun dun dun All right.

SPEAKER_05: 28:08

I found a uh article uh the other day that I felt was very fascinating. Um, and it was specifically talking about um presidential pardons. Um, and it's titled uh One of the Founders' Worst Fears Has Been Realized. Uh it's an article written by David French in the New York Times. Uh David French, um a lot of respect uh for for what he writes. Um and I'll just give a try to give a quick summary of what the article is saying. But he he begins by talking about four different um cases of pardons that have happened um in this last year. Um the first one was uh uh by a man named Jonathan Brahm, um, who was sentenced to 27 months in prison, um, charges including sexually assaulting a live-in nanny uh for his own children by and attacking a nurse with an IV poll. He's also accused of assaulting a three-year-old child. Um the second case was uh a man named Christopher Monahan, uh, who was arrested and charged with threatening um via text to eliminate Hakeem Jeffries, the House minority leader. The third case was uh a federal jury convicted a man, uh Elihu Weinstein, uh, of defrauding investors of forty-one million dollars, um, uh falsely promised to invest their money in COVID-19 masks, uh, baby formula, and first aid kits that were bound for Ukraine. That did not happen. Um, and then the last one he cites was um an Indiana sheriff who shot and killed a man um at a uh routine traffic stop. Um and so he was um um pardoned for for that that that for uh you know unjust use of power there. Um and so what that brought as kind of these specific examples, these four different crimes, um, but they're all kind of like what brings them together, so they've all been pardoned by um or been granted clemency by President Trump. Um and they note in the article that at least eight other people uh whom Trump granted clemency in his first term have since been charged with a crime, so that when he pardoned them the first time, they got out of prison and they've committed another crime. Um at January 6th, uh with the attack on the Capitol, um, Trump, when he first came into office the second term, he pardoned all 1,500 people who were um just in a in a wave of the wand. So 1,500 people um who were pardoned, and uh many of those um who got out have since committed more crimes. Um and so that there's another case here. Um he also then cites pardons of uh Robert Harshberger, um who um is the husband of Diana Harshberger, Republican representative from Tennessee, um who pleaded guilty to healthcare fraud, distributing a mis a misbranded drug. Uh and then uh the big one was him pardoning crypto billionaire uh Xingpang Zhao, um, who uh his company was helpful for Trump's uh new Bitcoin um to go from 127 million to over 2.1 billion. Um so all this is just it's building and building billion the amount of um um seemingly corruption that's happening here um because pardons they have no checks. Um pardons um they they are a power that is given to the president um and that's only he gets to do it and there's no one who can say what he can't do. And recently the Supreme Court said that the president um cannot be um uh that there is an immu there is immunity when you are working uh uh as a as a president, and so you now have that extra layer of um power given to the president. Um when you get a pardon, you don't have to like prove your innocence. That's not what is part of this. Um and this isn't, you know, again, this is not me trying to say this is all about Trump. Um Joe Biden uh pardoned his son on his way out the door. Uh he communicated sentences of thousands of other convicted criminals. Um Biden pardoned 80 pardons and 4,165 commutations um in his uh four one four-year term. Bill Clinton um pardoned his brother, um um Roger from drug conviction. Uh he he's pardoned many others. Uh he pardoned uh uh let's see, who was it? Um Mark Rick, uh his ex-wife Denise gave$450,000 to the Clinton Presidential Library. Seemed like it was a pay for pardon moment there. Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, but then he says maybe the closest analogy to tr what Trump has d has done is Andrew Johnson's blanket pardon of the Confederates after the Civil War there. Um and so all of this is just to kind of like bring up Japan. It feels like a pardon is a problem. Like in the United States, that pardons are are being used for pay. They are being used for uh to to do whatever they want. And uh in in David French's article, he cites uh George Mason uh uh at the uh Virginia Ratification Convention, the founding father, a delegate to the Constitutional Convention, saying um that the president ought not to have the power of pardoning because he may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself, meaning he could tell people to do something, and he says, Don't worry, I'm gonna pardon you later. Uh, which sounds a lot like what happened with January 6th. Um, and then Mason said, This by doing this, this will establish a monarchy and destroy the republic. Yep. Um, he said uh um another person right under the pseudonym of Cato, an anti-federalist, thought to be then New York governor George Clinton, warned the unrestrained power of granting pardons for treason, which may be used to screen from president those whom he had secretly instigated to commit the crime and thereby prevent a discovery of his own guilt. Yep. It it's all coming, like this has all been told this is what's gonna happen. But the Federalist's answer to the anti-federalists was simple when they said, like, hey, this is this is gonna happen. Then they said, no, no, don't worry. Congress can impeach a president if president is doing something like this. So like that seemed like a legit way to say, like, no, if president if if if a president is gonna do something this corrupt, Congress will just impeach them. But what we've seen in our checks and balances don't work 250 years is no Senate has ever actually impeached a president um or convicted an American president. So it's not working. It's not working, Malcolm. Um, and so uh David French uh to summarize his article, he makes one suggestion to help us out um rather than throw the pardon out the door because it's never gonna happen. What if we added an amendment to our constitution uh that said a president shall have the power with advice and consent of two-thirds of the Senate to grant reprieves and pardons? Um what did you think of that article? What did you think of that uh suggestion?

SPEAKER_01: 35:20

I mean, it's a nice you know, it's a it's a nice suggestion, but I mean like I said, I Slim, so little so little of my emotional energy is taken up with whether the Republic is going to survive. I mean, I it this is you know, I think about the fact that you know um uh there's a sense in which Augustine wrote the wrote the City of God to respond to the kind of to the decline of the Roman Empire and stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 35:53

And and and my thing is like but empires do empire things. And so like we we the whole last in many ways ten years has been a failure to hold uh in some ways a failure to hold people in power accountable. Um I mean it it's not just the past ten years, but um you know, I mean, yeah, it's it would be great to to see an amendment like that. But like it's just it's highly unlikely. I just think w what what it's just people people are struggling with seeing the slow the slow death of democracy, essentially. And people are like, we gotta do something about it. I'm like, yeah, I mean probably probably should. Um but but but then there's all but like I said, I mean part of it is just my priorities my priorities are just so I think my I think my priorities have shifted because I think they're I think this would this would have stressed me out more before. But now because my only job is to be faithful to the Lord and to care for those whom the Lord has called me to care for, and that includes our church and our community, like that's I mean, like that's that's where I'm that's where I'm at. And so the fact of the matter is like yes, we have a deeply, we have deeply immoral people in the uh in the leadership, in the leadership of the country, but as as is also something I like to bring up, I mean the whole New Testament was written under the Roman Empire in the first century, and you had you had to deal with folks like Nero and Domitian and all like Chris Christians are being killed. Like it's just like and and throughout that, in the letters that Paul, like in the letters that Paul and John and the other um folks write to write to their communities, they're like the mention of the government is like it happens a few times. Like they're just like, yeah, like the government's doing stuff, like just as long as they're not telling you to sit and just do what they do what they say. But like, but you but what your responsibility is to be Christ-like communities, and that's gonna be, and that's like it's it's inevitably going to lead to persecution, is what is what he is is is what is the way that it's framed in scripture. Um and it's inevitably going to lead to to suffering is uh is also is also the element of it. And so much of our, I really think so much of our stress and our anxiety, and this is um this is an intro to book two, so much of our stress is anxiety is because we really want to avoid suffering by all by any cost, and we don't, and we're not thinking about just asking the question, what does it look like for me to follow Christ in this, in this, in this situation? So when you think about the application of your political power, always, always, always apply it for the for the uplifting of especially those who are those who are oppressed. But as I said in my book, I was like, but don't expect to, but like, but don't expect to win and don't be really and don't be really bent out of shape when you lose. Like that's it's what happens. We're up against powers and principalities. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 39:11

Um I think I think that's um go ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 39:14

But the other the other thing is uh I to to talk about the gospel, um, because you mentioned uh in in your text from me, you're talking about uh forgiveness.

SPEAKER_05: 39:27

And like let's get there in a second.

SPEAKER_01: 39:28

Oh, you don't get there in a second.

SPEAKER_05: 39:29

Okay, okay. Um so the the I think the way you frame that, um, that you know Paul and and other New Testament uh writers are writing in the midst of uh you know, Caesar, amidst of uh an oppressive regime um overseeing them. Um but they had they had subtle ways to undercut it. Yes, they didn't talk about like how can we um you know rework the the government in in our favor in this time, uh, but it's because the literally they they they're they had zero power, um, but they would find Ways to subvert it by you know saying, like, no, Jesus is Lord. Um but it's it is funny that you think about it like uh that that that analogy because we don't we would say, well, president's not like that. But um I ironically, um in the midst of uh President Trump pardoning the former Honduran president uh Juan Orlando Hernandez um uh for uh I mean he just got convicted earlier this spring for m bringing more than 400 tons of cocaine into the United States. Four hundred tons of cocaine. And the others said, no, like this is a mountain like mountains of cocaine.

SPEAKER_00: 40:39

It's a lot of cocaine.

SPEAKER_05: 40:40

And so we just pardoned the president who's uh booger sugar, if you will.

SPEAKER_02: 40:50

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_05: 40:52

I hope y'all spit out whatever you had in your mouth at the moment there. That's wild. Booger sugar. That's the official term.

SPEAKER_01: 40:59

Uh I'm just gonna break up this constant litany of crimes for these people. Uh uh.

SPEAKER_05: 41:05

So this president uh uh is moving 400 million uh 400 tons of cocaine in the United States, mountains of cocaine, and President Trump pardons them. Yeah um uh in the midst of them saying, No, we are going to stop the terrorist uh drug boats of Venezuela bringing drugs in these these small little drug boats um by bombing them in the Caribbean um to where we all get to watch it live. Um and yeah, so like it's just it's wild that these things are are happening um back and forth. But it the the reason that president got uh of of Honduras got um pardoned was he wrote a letter to Trump saying, Your excellency is how he began it, which makes me think of Caesar Augustus. Like like that's like going in this this realm. Um and so I guess before we get to the the um the forgiveness and like how we relate this to the church um angle, what good is the pardon power, Malcolm? What what do you think? Why do you think the founders wanted that in our system? What what what's what's what's an argument political science questions?

SPEAKER_01: 42:11

Malcolm is so anti-empire. No, I think it's just like I mean it's probably just I mean it's probably just for like when when when people um I mean when people have been railroaded by the system. Like it's a it's it's a check, it's supposed to be, I think it could function as a check on the legal system that there is an ultimate, there is kind of a it's the like that's where the buck stops when it comes to appeals of the broader American legal system. Um and so like people who have actively been unjustly railroaded by the system, like this is kind of a hail, it's it's kind of a Hail Mary kind of kind of kind of so maybe in the sense where someone has actually is innocent, or maybe the um Which happened which is happened.

SPEAKER_05: 43:00

There are plenty of people who are in prison and jail who are actually you could think of uh the book Just Mercy, which is kind of you know, uh Brian, what's his last one? Stevenson Stevenson, uh you know chronicling all of those uh these examples of this. But sometimes it's not just someone innocent, but also maybe they're convicted of a crime, but the um the punishment is far more severe than it needs to be. Yeah. And so I think a president could pardon in that reg that regard. That I think that would be a good thing. Um But it's like it's like the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01: 43:30

I mean, like we s it was one founding father that was that when in in talking about the way that the system is set up, like it's it's set up in such a way that gives the people involved, like it assumes a moral people. Like it it it it it it gives people the benefit of the doubt that like that there'll be people who follow the rules. Yeah. And so what we've we find ourselves in a situation in a situation where the chief the chief executive functionally does not care about the rules.

SPEAKER_03: 44:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:03

That's a not like and that's like a real that's I I feel like that's a relatively non-controversial claim. Like it's just like he just doesn't care. And the fact of the matter is that the system is not set up for somebody who doesn't care about the rules. Yeah. Um, and that's what people are seeing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 44:25

Yeah. And that's what we just cited. The the the founding fathers saw that the pardon power could be catastrophic if it was used like this, and that's what's happening right now. It is catastrophic. Um and it it could get worse. Um But let's I want to think about this not just in the political science realm, um, as uh um we just talked about, but I want to move the shift this the conversation to as Christians, you know, how are we as Christians to think about presidential pardons? Because it feels like or or pardons in general. Okay. Because it feels like as a Christian, I should be very pro-pardon, and right now I feel very anti-parton. Why?

SPEAKER_01: 45:09

Why do you think as a Christian you should be pro-pardon?

SPEAKER_05: 45:11

That's a great question. Because there's this thing in scripture where God pardons sinners. Um uh let me read to you.

SPEAKER_01: 45:22

But that's controversial. Go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_05: 45:23

Let me re- Let me let me share a few verses. Um 32. Um Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity. Uh Micah 7, 18, 19, who is a God like you pardoning iniquity? You will cast out you will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea. Um Romans 8, 1, one of my favorite verses. There is therefore now no condemnation for those in in Christ Jesus. Um Colossians 2, last one, God made you alive, having forgiven us all our trespasses by canceling the record of debt that stood against us by nailing it to the cross. And so, as Christians, this is deeply um a part of our own story that God is pardoning us. And so we we hear this and we're like, you know, I should be very pro this. Like, we ought to be very pro forgiveness and pardoning. So, how do we distinguish between legal forgiveness and moral forgiveness?

SPEAKER_01: 46:19

Yeah, see, that's this is this is the issue. Uh, I think there's a I think there's been a truncation of the gospel in a number of spaces because people think that the self because people think that salvation is primarily about forgiveness. Um and and and if you think about it uh in terms of we can we can just think about it kind of linear linearly in terms of our own virtue. So we can think about ourselves as when we were when we were created, you could assume a kind of moral blank slate. Um we weren't created virtuous, we were cramped created with we if we if we were to think about our yeah, that uh think about it as a as a blank slate, and we we have an option to turn in two two directions. We could turn toward toward God and toward life or toward death. Adam and Eve chose to move toward death. So what so so that places the entirety of humanity in that in that direction. All forgiveness, all forgiveness does, if you want to just think about forgiveness, all forgiveness does is move you back to the basically back to the center. And so, and that's not what the entire message of salvation is. God didn't God didn't create us to just be at the center or to be a just to be a blank slate. He created us to be righteous, he created us to be like him. And so, and this is and this is this is this is this really lies at the core of what I deeply believe is the good news of Jesus Christ. He did not just come for us to be forgiven. When when when we are when we are told, when we're told that his name would be Jesus because he would save his people from their sins, it's not just that they would be a people who don't sin. It's that it's that they would be a people who are actually righteous, like Christ is. Like when we see when we see Christ's life, we we we are seeing what human life is supposed to be. And so, and so uh so part of the um so part of it is also uh, you know, uh forgiveness is a very, very, very good, very, very good thing. Um, but we when I th I I I think about uh uh in Romans 3 uh 26 when we talk about um uh God presenting Christ as a sacrifice of uh of atonement, in in 326 it says God God did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have those who have faith in Jesus. What what faith in Jesus does though is it actively changed, like it actively changes you. And so one of the so and and and this and this is why it was so this is why it was so controversial. This is why one of the primary questions, especially in the first centuries of the church, was like, why do people still sin after baptism? Yeah, because baptism is a massive, like you've been reborn. Like why are people still why do people still sin after baptism? And part of it is because there's this understanding that they're like, but like forgiven, like forgiveness is not is not the whole game. The fact is that God has actually changed you into a different person who does, who does different things. Um and so um, and so that's the other, that's the other element of it here, is that in this in this context of presidential pard pardons and stuff like that, it's literally just it's literally just an act of favoritism. And so like as though you can just petition, as though it's something like you can just petition for it or you pay enough and you and you and you get it.

SPEAKER_03: 49:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 49:43

Um, and that's not what this it's it's not why God forgives. God, God doesn't forgive you because you're awesome. Like that's like he forgives you because he forgives you because after you when you've when you've placed when you've placed your fa the only the only re the only reason is Christ. And when you place your life, when you place your life in Christ, they're like, great, like let's actually do humanity the way that I created you to do it. Yeah. Um and so uh so yeah, and so and and and there's a there's a hu there's a there's a humility that's necessary there too, because like God God doesn't like you you you can never make the argument, you know, well God forgave me because like he really wants me, he really wants me on his team because I've got all these gifts and stuff. No, like he wants everybody on his team. He wants he did this for everybody. He died. We're told in first John. That that is that Christ died for the for the sins of uh of us and the entire world. Because he wants everybody in in in in 1 Timothy 6, he he he he desires everyone to be saved. He wants everyone to live an actual human an actual human life. Um this is not an act of this is not an act of favoritism. The reason why if you if you if you choose not to accept that gift, that's because you didn't choose that's because you didn't accept that gift. Yeah. Yeah. It's offered to everybody.

SPEAKER_05: 51:06

Well, so how do we um what are what what you kind of highlighted the differences between the presidential pardon and and and God's pardon. Um what would you say is a similarity there? Um like I mean, I I as frustrated as I as I am with it right now, um it it does appear to be getting g given to those who um show loyalty or um maybe even buy um the the that pardon. And so I think that's the difference. Um but I also but on the on the another level, they've not really shown any sign of remorse for their their sins. Um and also, but I I would say that's actually like a connection between us and the Lord, because it's not as if God says, once you clean yourself up, I will offer you forgiveness.

SPEAKER_01: 51:54

Like divine forgiveness is true, but repentance is necessary. But that's the response, right?

SPEAKER_05: 51:58

Like that's that's that it like kind of you know in order though, the the divine forgiveness comes first. Um and so if if these pardons go out irregardless of someone's approach to them, I almost say that's actually a pretty good picture of the the gospel. If now they then go now, but also the same thing, like not everyone who who's been offered this turns and and and reforms their life.

SPEAKER_01: 52:25

Well, I I go back to Cal the way that Calvin sees because all of this, the only thing that actually matters is union, is union with Christ.

SPEAKER_05: 52:32

It cancels the punishment, it cancels the legal consequences, right?

SPEAKER_01: 52:35

Like this is for those who are in Christ. So that's because like because that because that because that's because because that's the other thing. Because like it as as uh as as uh Calvin uses uses uses this image, but he's like it it's out there, but if you're if you're not connected, if you're not actually connected to it, it offers you no benefit. And so like I mean, humanity, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna preach this on uh on Sunday. Like, I mean, in the birth of Christ and the life and death of Christ, like humanity has actively has actively been changed, but you only but not everybody experiences not everybody experiences the benefits, the benefits of it. So this is like this is a case. These are these are cases of you and and thinking of the way that the pardon is being used now, you get to experience, you get to experience these benefits without having done, like without, like, without even responding, like without even responding. Like there, there is, at least with the gospel, there's a repent and believe the gospel. This is this is not but but but but with something like this, it's it's I mean the the requirements are the requirements are different. Um yeah. I see all this is this I see very little similarity. But this is good.

SPEAKER_05: 53:56

It's it's it's lively conversation. Do you think do you think the cross um complicates this idea of forgiveness? Um that when God pardons uh it's just letting someone get off the hook.

SPEAKER_04: 54:15

No.

SPEAKER_01: 54:16

Uh no, because it the I think it's also important that um because we've all been wrong that the penalty has been yeah, I think it's I think I think and this is where you get into uh the substitutionary imagery in the scripture. It's that it's that the it's that the penalty has been um the penalty's already been exhausted. Um and so and and you you can either like you can either bear that penalty yourself, or you can take the fact that Christ is knocking at your door saying, look, I've looked I've paid it before you die, because if you die without taking it, you're gonna you're gonna have to take this. But before you die, I'm I'm knocking until you die. I'm not I'm knocking until you die. This is and this and this is the other reason why I can't. Uh I talked about um uh and this won't come out for for probably a little while, but on the on each of my colleagues' podcast about uh physician as uh physician assisted suicide, but it's also the way that I feel about the no, no. Okay, um, but also the way I feel about the death penalty. This is this is part of my kind of very consistent uh pro-life kind of kind of position, is that is that at any is that I do not ever want to cut off someone's opportunity to repent. Because until they until they die, they have that chance. But after they die, the chance the chances are over. Um and so and so um, but it is that that knocking at the door that uh these that Christ uses that language in uh in Revelation 3. Uh, it's because he has that he did it's if you if you don't take it, then you be then you bear the consequences of all the things that of of your running away of your running away from the Lord. Yeah and and and and the and the Lord has a different I mean the Lord has a different and much more marvelous life for you to live. You accept accept the gift.

SPEAKER_05: 56:19

Accept the gift. Uh I I this makes me think of um in Luke. Um so we're because you're you're you're communicating the importance of not just the offer of grace, of pardon, of forgiveness, but that that pardon and forgiveness does something. It is it it it ignites a life to to something different when it's received. Um but it makes me think of in in Luke 7, um there's this um passage with Jesus uh uh being anointed by they said by a sinful woman. Yes and and then uh in verse 44 he says and he turned to the woman and said to Simon, Do you see this woman? I came into your house and you did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not give me a kiss, but this woman from the time I entered has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet, and therefore I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven. As great love has shown, but whoever has been forgiven little loves little. And that's where I think this is the picture of true forgiveness. Um whoever has been forgiven little loves little, and you could say, but whoever has been forgiven much loves much. Uh Paul wrestles with this, and he's like, if you've sinned, you know, if you've you know the greater the sin, the greater the the response there. And he's like, Well, should we you sin the more? And he's like, by no means.

SPEAKER_01: 57:51

No, because you're a different person. Like that, like it that like that's the other thing. The mega noital there is just like is it's insane. Do you understand how ridiculous that is? Yeah, you've died to sin. He then goes on to say, you've died to sin. Like that this like you're a different, you're a different person. You've been born again, you're alive to get consider yourself dead to sin and alive to God, because that's who that's who you actually that's who you actually are.

SPEAKER_05: 58:18

But think thinking about that woman, like what she must have lived as a life to then just see so at to be so appreciative of Jesus that she's you know, wiping his her feet with his hair, and she like what you know, her tears, like I just like oh, I love it. Like she is just so moved by Jesus that she is willing to to you know to um humiliate herself in this way. Um and I just what a beautiful thing that is. And so it like knowing knowing our own sin and knowing how far we were from the Lord should make us more gracious people. And so should should divine grace make us more cautious or more generous when evaluating these human pardons, Malcolm. Do you think do you think that that should uh affect how we see these pardons from Trump?

SPEAKER_04: 59:09

No.

SPEAKER_01: 59:13

Almost had so close. Because like, because the other thing is that like it it's not the way I feel about so like it would be like I just had this conversation. I was meeting with so Ida B. Wells' great granddaughter uh uh goes to church in Chicago.

SPEAKER_05: 59:32

Say that again. You were meeting with Ida B.

SPEAKER_01: 59:35

Wells' great granddaughter.

SPEAKER_05: 59:36

That's wild.

SPEAKER_01: 59:37

Yeah. So basically, uh one of the board members at Baylor is is her cousin. And so when I gave him the book, he gave her the book. She loved it. And so she emailed me and she's like, and and and she's like, she's like, Can I can I have uh uh you know, I'll buy like 15 signed copies. I was like, I'll give you 15 signed copies. I'll tell a little more about the book. The life you live, man. Sounds but uh so her the pastor of her church is uh David Black, who Went viral um because he was he was the pastor who was pepper sprayed by ice in Chicago. Oh that picture of him that's that's that's him. So that's our pastor. Wow. And so I did a Zoom meeting with uh her with some folks at her church, but also some other folks around the country. This was this past Saturday. And uh but one of the things that came up was like after after Mother Emmanuel, after the Mother Emmanuel Amy shooting.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:26

And that there were a number of um that there were a number of folks, um uh members of the congregation who forgave uh Dylan Roof kind of a f within a few days of the of the thing and people and and that also kind of makes people upset because they're because they're like, um, you know, it it feels like we're not we're not allowed to grieve or to be angry, that we just kind of have to rush, just kind of have to rush to forgiveness.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:55

Um and and the and the point that I was making there is that I I mean we we forgive, we forgive for us. Because we forgive because we can't afford not to forgive. Because if we don't forgive, then the then the root of bitterness can build up in us. But also, also we're told by Christ in in the in his in his explanation of the Lord's prayer that if we don't forgive, then we won't be forgiven. Now, now the what that but what that does not mean though, is that that doesn't mean that we don't hold people, that we don't hold people accountable for the things that they for the things that they do. Yes. Um and that's the that's the issue is that people like I can like I can forgive you, but if you committed a crime, like you, you're you're the the the the debt that you owe is not just to me but to but to but to but to bra society. Similarly, even even when we think about our sin against our sin against the Lord, like yeah, I sin against you, but ultimately I sin against the Lord. So it's up to the Lord to figure out what it is what it is to do, what it is to do with me. Yeah. Um and so and so even to think about God's grace to the extent that with all the things that with all the sin that I've committed against the Lord, that his his choice, because he has the prerogative as sovereign Lord of the universe, that his choice was, I love Malcolm so much that I, that I, that, that, that my son is going to take on flesh, live a perfect life, die, be raised, and ascended so that I so that he can so that he can be redeemed and brought into and and brought into my life. The fact that that is God's response to each of us, that is, that is different. That is different from any other way that we could experience forgiveness in this forgiveness in this in this in this world. And so, so yeah, like it's you know, I'd I'd hesitate to say that it's categorically different. Uh, you give me a give me a few more days to think about it, and maybe I'll I'll confidently say that it's categorically different. But it is, it is very, it is very, very different because no one, because no one has been harmed, like no one has been actively offended and harmed by sin. I mean, I'm I'm not I'm not saying that God is harmed, harmed by it properly, but no, but no, but but but no but nobody has been more offended and opposed by evil than God than God has been. Yeah. Um, and nobody can respond and do and have this and have the kind of response that God that God has had to our millennia of sin.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:37

Um this is the this is the thing that I I I absolutely 100% agree. Um, because when we sin against someone, um they have the opportunity of the to either hold us to account or to offer forgiveness. Um but when you offer forgiveness, you are choosing to eat the suffering. You are choosing to say, I will take on this injustice on myself. That's what forgiveness is doing. And so if if a president is offering pardons to people, he's not eating the suffering. No, injustice is continuing to go. And so this is where it's like we should be the biggest proponents of forgiveness and grace and mercy, because we it's been shown to us. And yet the Bible is also very pro-justice all throughout the scriptures. Micah 6 8, the famous one, he has shown you, oh mortal, what is good, and what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and walk humbly with your Lord. Uh Amos 5 24, but let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream. Because justice is is it's a form of love. It's a way to love our neighbors. And so if you've ever been sinned against and not just um insulted, but like maybe in horrific ways, it's these sins, they're like bombs that go off in communities, and the shrapnel hits all the people around us, and you need you need to recognize that that's that's in affecting everyone around us, and for the love of the community, we want to care for them and hold this person to account. Hold this j it actually in enact justice here. And it's it's it's loving to the community to have justice as well as to the person. So in that case of of you know the the AME shooter, like that that they were able to forgive them, but still want them to to go to prison. Like I I still think that's that's a path forward for that person's own sanctification that God could use their time in prison to work on them and to disciple them to see how impactful that decision was. And so all of this to say, I think I think that yeah, we we can conflate them, but I I think it's it's hard because we use the word pardon. We hear president pardons and we hear God pardoning, you're like, uh, I think it's two different things. But I just thought it'd be worthwhile for us to to have this discussion here. Um but I I would talk. I would love for all of us to uh embrace the the the mindset of this woman who is so moved by Jesus who had been given pardon, but then to respond and with like um response as her there uh from Luke 7. So go read that uh this week. Uh Malcolm, I know you gotta run out.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:07

Um Love you.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:09

We talked about so much today. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:11

So much meaty. That was a meaty, that was a meaty podcast.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:14

It was uh a little little heavy on um politics. Next one we'll uh hopefully not talk about that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:20

It's what I've come to expect of you, Slid.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:22

No, no. Never um hey y'all, thanks for listening to the Theology Beast podcast. If you found any of this helpful, um, as always, would you like, rate, subscribe? Um, this helps other people find the podcast. Uh and so if you did find any of it helpful, um please do that. Um share it with a friend. Uh we'll have a contest, hi me, how many you can share with. Um, and the winner gets a book from Malcolm? A uh an award-winning book.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:49

We can actually do that. We can send you a signed copy.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:51

Yeah. Um, but no, that that that we would really appreciate that. That does help. Uh and we we hit over 20,000 uh listens the other day. So yay! Awesome. We'll see y'all next time. Merry Christmas.