SPEAKER_05: 0:24

Hey hey hey! Okay Oh yeah, it's a party because it's 2026. New year new me there we go new us welcome to us.

SPEAKER_01: 0:40

We're about time for a new use live.

SPEAKER_00: 0:46

Let the people listen to the new us.

SPEAKER_05: 0:52

Everything is different in 2026. Nothing is as it seems, all is well in the world.

SPEAKER_01: 0:58

Or as it should be. Nothing is as it seems, or as it should be.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00

Or as it should be. Um but we are starting uh off hey, I think it's a week early from last year. So it's almost like we're on time. Um I guess. Yeah. Well, hey, um thank you for listening to Welcome to Theology Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we're your host, Slim N. Malcolm. And today we're gonna talk two corrupted Christianities in the gospel coalition. Dun dun dun. I think I have that sound effect, don't I?

SPEAKER_03: 1:36

Uh there we go. All right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:43

All right. I don't know. We'll just do that sound effect because I I thought I had the dun dun dun. One day we'll upgrade those sound effects. Uh, but you know, here we are. Um Malcolm, how you dumb? I'm I'm doing all right, man. Yep. Doing all right. 2026 treating you well.

SPEAKER_02: 1:59

It it is. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_05: 2:01

The the the year is treating you well. It is. It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01: 2:05

I don't, yeah, it's fine.

SPEAKER_05: 2:06

Did you have any New Year's resolutions this year?

SPEAKER_01: 2:08

Uh no, but it's gonna be uh it's gonna be a pretty action-packed year. How so? Well, I mean, there are two big pieces of news, one of one of which uh one of which will make its debut on this uh on this podcast. You guys are you guys are hearing this for the first for the first time. Nobody else knows that this is nobody else knows that this is coming. Uh well, there's one thing that every that everybody should know right now, which is that uh me and show Baraka are going on tour this this spring, so March, March to May. So if you want us to come to your city and do our show, well then like let us let us know. You can you can you can email us at info at baracaology.com. All this stuff is on Instagram and stuff. But then there's also uh I am planning to write another book.

SPEAKER_00: 2:55

What?

SPEAKER_01: 2:56

Because you know, I'm a I'm a gun for punishment. So uh so that's that's on the that's on that's on the way. I'll give I'll give more details uh in the coming weeks, but there's another one. There's another one coming. Nice. Another one coming?

SPEAKER_05: 3:09

How much can you share about it? Uh what what's the uh pseudo-title?

SPEAKER_01: 3:14

Uh well, I mean, well the the way that I the way the way that I'm the way that I'm pitching it, they're gonna they're they're giving me the contract soon, but um Rolling in the Benjamins. I mean that's what it's all about. Um this is how uh subtly this will be the book that'll let you know how uh how Theosis is actually the answer to racial capitalism.

SPEAKER_05: 3:34

That's what we were all wondering. We're like, hey, what's the answer to racial capitalism? And it's it's it's that Theosis was one of my options.

SPEAKER_01: 3:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 3:42

So if if I was in like third grade, yeah, what's Theosis?

SPEAKER_01: 3:45

Uh that God had that God created you to be gods.

SPEAKER_05: 3:50

Cool. So pantheism.

SPEAKER_01: 3:52

No, no, no. That's what sounds like. Uh well, you'll just have to read the book to find out what I mean.

SPEAKER_05: 3:57

All right, all right. Well, we will look forward to that. So a a New Year's resolution of sort is to uh take the world by storm with Shobaraka and to write a book.

SPEAKER_01: 4:08

And write a book. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_05: 4:10

That's shooting a little high for my taste. Try to get past next weekend. Also that. Also that. Fun. Fun. Um, what was the other thing though I was gonna ask you about um uh I don't know. Um cool. Cool, great, yeah. Um, well, we are we're delighted to to kickstart the new year with you all. Uh, thank you for listening in. It always is uh refreshing to hear from you all. And um, in fact, we had one emailer uh write in uh after last um last episode that was kind of the recap uh for Malcolm being the winner of the the best the best uh episode on our own podcast. Feels a little self-serving, but you did it.

SPEAKER_01: 5:04

I had no I had no hand in that. I did not do that.

SPEAKER_05: 5:11

Um but we had uh we had uh someone write in, and I'm not gonna read the whole thing, um, because it was rather long, but I love the long emails. Um gets us to to hear what you are thinking. Um, but some highlights from it. Uh says that the Theology Pieces podcast in our sermons from the church um have been part of their commute routinely, um, and have appreciated it. Uh let's see. Some of the things that they've uh have different discussions and questions that came to mind while listening to in regard regards to Rev the Revelation series. Um person in their life that's a accelerationist, um there's a term. Um and then uh said they were listening um to our podcast and caught up to the latest episode that we released uh uh referring to Ezra Klein and mentioned we decided to delete social media, which have you have you stayed on board with the deletion of social media? Uh are you currently on it while I'm talking to you right now?

SPEAKER_01: 6:14

I'm not currently on it while I'm talking. Don't worry. That would have been just that's not really what it would have been.

SPEAKER_05: 6:24

Uh not trying to cutting it out.

SPEAKER_01: 6:26

Yeah, it's fine. I've been enjoying it. It's whatever. It's fine. Yeah. Everything's fine.

SPEAKER_05: 6:32

Um so yeah, uh, so they listed on that, um, which yeah, update. I'm still off of it. It's still on uh my um desktop or you know laptop, and so I'm able to uh access things like that here and there, but I am just so far removed from stuff uh and you know I'm enjoying it. Um really have. Um they said they wanted to share their story of leave uh of you know deleting uh social media as well. Um they've been uh uh wanting to listen to unbiased news sources. Um they've used uh how do you say that? Reuters? R-E-U-T-E R S? I've read it before. R E U T Routers.

SPEAKER_01: 7:13

R-E-U-T-E-U-R-T.

SPEAKER_05: 7:16

T-U-R-T-L-E-Pow or T-U-R-T-L-E-P. You know that you know what I'm saying? I know what you're talking about. I'm an adult. Um as well as A P news. Uh so they're giving some uh ideas on ways to still stay in the know, which was the thing that I felt like I was missing if I were to delete Twitter. Um, but she said, uh this person said um uh they don't know how else to say it, but the American imperialistic take on the world depended on how relevant the country was, economically defense-based. Um so just realizing how um biased all the news is, um, and different conflicts and wars were put to the narrative helpful uh Americans versus the deserving recipients of atrocities. Um came to the point where they knew that the war in Gaza was going on, had a vague understanding of the Gaza uh Israel-Gaza history, but um has since been rethinking through this. Um and the you know, the current mainstream media saying that 60,000 casualties in Gaza, but the recent studies have calculated over five hundred thousand um numbers in the six hundred thousands. And so just seen some uh discrepancies in the reporting, um, which is just that's propaganda. Um let's see. Uh around the same time she was started reading Malcolm's book. Hey. And began finding more critical sources on domestic and international news, found herself regretting uh uh how much they ignored. The anti-Gree gospel was tremendously helpful in the framing for what's going on, um which I concur. I concur. Um Let's see what else. Uh all all that to say I think taking away different aspects of social media can be good for sure, but also can expose the story making propaganda behind mainstream outlets, which is very good. That's that that is one of the points that if everything is only filtered through one main source, one of the perks of social media is that you have more people who are able to say what is true um and kind of countering that narrative. The flip side is you could have as is true as well, lots of bots that are making more noise and uh are vehicles of the propaganda machine. Um and so I 100% agree with you, and I'm you know, we've all heard stories of someone who's able to get their word out or their the the news out um because that it's not having to be filtered through um some some corporation. But those corporations got money. They do and they they they pay others to to do this work, and it's been proven that way as well. So it's just it's hard. Um but um I think both this is why I'm like I'm not completely off of it, because I still think there there is there's there's value there. But I just know my own tendency and temptation to being addicted to it um is rough. Um as well as just my countenance was getting very despondent over consistently watching the Empire Empire and having no agency to do anything about it.

SPEAKER_04: 10:13

Um yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01: 10:19

I mean I um Yeah, Empire's Empire's gonna empire, bro. Um my my thing is um Well this this this this listener uh mentioned how um their their their disillusionment would to American imperialism and and capitalism broke uh thanks to thanks to thanks to my book.

SPEAKER_03: 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:46

Um but uh I I don't want I just I I don't want that to lead to despair for any of the for any of the body of Christ just because like and I've mentioned this before the entire New Testament was written under Rome and and the United States is just like Rome but dumb. So like we we have we have we have resources, uh we have resources to be able to be able to deal with this.

SPEAKER_04: 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 11:17

Yeah. Um yeah, some of the things that encouraging things she said in there, although her theology wasn't it necessarily in pieces, uh trust in the church and church leaders has been broken for a while now, which I feel like is very much uh very very common, sadly. Um and that is why she's been grateful for um adoring Christ, applying the gospel, and acting with mercy and justice, the mission of our church, the sermons, the podcast um have been encouraging. Um, and then she's currently wrestling with what it means to hold these standards and beliefs, but also be part of a faithful community. Oh, I love that you were wrestling. That's that's the thing. It's like, how do I have convictions then also compassion and loving my neighbors that might feel differently? Yes, please continue with that work. That is a good work. Um what else? I mean, it's so good. I just I I love people writing that this is what we want podcasts. You can actually have long form and wrestle with stuff, and then also you can actually have communication back and forth. So this is great. Um one of the podcasts she wants to recommend for us. Uh so if you guys are looking for some other extra podcasts, uh, it's called the Blowback Podcast. I personally have not listened to any of it, so I'm looking forward to trying it out. Um, so no no endorsements or uh anything like that, but uh endorsement from from this one, listener. Um so I think it it says it uh two guys who go through major global conflict conflicts, wars, and periodistic atrocities that America's been involved with on and the non-American sides of the story in order of seasons, Afghanistan, Cuba, the Korean War, Cambodia, Angola, South Africa, and Israel. Uh which that sounds fantastic. Um anyway, she just says thank you for the podcast and for all that. Um anyways, stuff like this is uh so encouraging. It reminds us that you know the the work that we are doing, the the the the getting together and talking is not just talking. Um it is um hopefully encouraging you all, and we hope that that allows you to go like maybe I'm not crazy, maybe not not everyone in the world thinks this one way or the other. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Um if you want to write a review, you can do that. That helps others uh like this listener find it and and then share it with people, but also email us in. You can hit the ask a question question button, or you can write in at hello at theologypieces.com. All right, man, so much going on. But um, Malcolm, did you know there's uh lots going on in the world? Did you know that we are taking over Venezuela? Did you hear about this?

SPEAKER_01: 13:43

I did, I did hear about that.

SPEAKER_05: 13:44

Um so we we now run it.

SPEAKER_01: 13:46

I I apparently, yes.

SPEAKER_05: 13:48

Um and then we were about to go to war, like physically boots on the ground with Greenland, but we we don't we're we're not anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 13:56

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05: 13:56

Which, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 13:58

Okay, and and here's the thing about that.

SPEAKER_05: 14:00

I think that would I think that counts as as another war that our president has saved us from.

SPEAKER_01: 14:05

Look, I I am just I I am most uh interested in the fact that you know, I made the Rome, I made the Rome reference.

SPEAKER_03: 14:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01: 14:17

Um I'm just I'm just amazed by how how how petty how petty this is. In the sense that, like, you know, there were the text messages between um uh Trump and the Norwegian prime minister, was it? But basically. But basically, but basically that's all terrible. You know, that basically, hey, he's saying, hey, because I didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize, I'm no longer like peace is no longer gonna be my like first priority, and I'm gonna think about the interests of the United States and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_05: 14:50

Yeah, let me re- let me read it. Let me read it. Dear Jonas, considering your country, this is from President DJT. Dear Jonas, considering your country decided not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize for having stopped eight wars plus, I no longer feel an obligation to think purely of peace, although it will always be predominant, but can now think about what is good and proper for the United States of America. Denmark cannot protect the land from Russia or China, and why do they have a right of ownership anyway? There are no written documents, it's only that a boat landed there hundreds of years ago, but we had boats, they're landing landing there also. I have done more for NATO than any other person since its founding, and now NATO should do something for the United States. The world is not secure unless we have complete and total control of Greenland. Thank you, President DJT.

SPEAKER_04: 15:36

I'm gonna be very simple.

SPEAKER_01: 15:39

I it it we just we want to be very, very I this is this is a cautionary tale for what what happens when you allow greed and vainglory to drive all of your action. Which is it's what we're watching. Um when you just really want money and you really want attention. Like this is the kinds of these are the kinds of things that you subject uh other people to. And now we're seeing it just like on a global stage because the most powerful person in this country is guided basically first and foremost by uh greed and vanglory.

SPEAKER_05: 16:19

Yeah. It's childishness or gratuity. It's just a it's a five-year-old response to a crazy situation.

SPEAKER_01: 16:28

Well, well, here's the thing. It uh it's not even so much that it's childish. Like it it is. I like it it is. But but I also but I want us to think but I also want us to think about it through the lens of vice. Like it, like it's not just uh because the c because the thing is like you can you can children are that way because they are immature. And uh but this is this is not just a like it's not just an immaturity thing. It's a vice thing. It's that it's that he loves attention and he loves money. And so the thing about the Nobel Peace Prize is that like it's it's this it's a prestigious award that he thinks that he deserves. And uh and that like and that's what it's for. Like I think about the phraseology of because I did not get the peace prize, I will not be committed to peace. Already that already that communicates everything that needs to be communicated. It's that it's not a base commitment to peace, it's a base commitment to attention. Yeah. And so like and so that but but but I like I I I I just I I want people to in in in in all these things, I want us to be able to learn from them and especially to see how corrupting vice is. Um and the fact that, you know, these are like these are the kinds of things um you know, I I I my favorite, my favorite acting role of all of all time was uh in high school.

SPEAKER_05: 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:58

When I played when I played Gaston in Beauty and the Beast. As one does. And it was glorious. It was glorious because I my j my joke is that, you know, it was a really easy role for me to play because I'm like, this is what I would be like without the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_05: 18:14

Uh but that was a fun role to play then. That was fun. Oh, it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01: 18:20

I love playing villains, but but but but it is but it is, you know, it's a but that but that kind of vice leads to I mean, it leads to it leads to death. And so and so I so I it it's the kind of thing where I mean I think it's easy when we uh sometimes when we say that something is childish, we do that as a way to dismiss it and then not think about it any anymore. And one of the things that I want us to I want us to be reminded that uh, you know, I mean, like I said advice advice comes after comes after all comes after all of us. Um and so it's important for us to be diligent in our resistance of it.

SPEAKER_05: 18:57

Just the the wild claim that because I didn't get the peace prize, I'm gonna go to war.

SPEAKER_01: 19:05

Like I said, like I said, I think I I I really do feel like uh Roman emperors were like this capricious. There were some folks who were just kind of this capricious about this about this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_05: 19:17

Well, this is the thing that as as absurd and uh as obnoxious and childish and and and wild it is, like if you look at any of the in in history, any of these uh dictators or any of those you know corrupt leaders, like they also had this to them. They had this like kind of childish playfulness. But also terrible terrible. Um here here's one of my favorite tweets uh that I I found, again, not on my phone. Uh sure. Ah dang it. I believe you don't talk to me that way. Uh uh Who's this from? This is from uh George Conway. Says, today is the most humiliating day in the history of the United States of America. Space. At least until tomorrow. And I don't even know what he's referencing. But I feel like that is like the perfect tweet. It is, it is, it's at least until tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01: 20:18

It is embarrassing. I mean, like, it's just it's and we can see it from the fact that these decades-long alliances are are crumbling. Um Canada's speaking out against us, a lot of Europe is speaking out against us, like we we are uh and but this is this this is the other thing I want to stop doing or I want to learn to stop doing. Because every time I refer to the United States as a nation, I keep saying we uh and it's because I live here. Uh like but like I I I also want us, specifically for the church, I want us to be reminded that we're not like we're not American Christians, we're Christians in America. And um and and because like because because I think there's the like when decisions like this are made by the government, we like internalize that and like get like emotionally like attached to it and stuff. Um not because of its effects, but because like we think that it reflects on us and our identities because we find our ident because because because in this age of nationalism, particularly over the course of the last four or five hundred years, people have this like deep, deep connection with the nations in which they live. Um and it shapes their identities. And and and and it takes a lot of work to kind of do that kind of disentangling and be like, well, but like what does it look like for me to be, you know, a citizen of the a citizen of the kingdom of God first and foremost? And so then that is what drives my commitments. That's what drives um, you know, that not only drives kind of the things that I do, but also the way that I feel about the things that happen around me.

SPEAKER_00: 22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:10

Um, because I I I I I said this on uh threads yesterday. I was like, don't be surprised by the violence of the United States. Like we were founded in violence. We it's the it's the whole, it's our whole deal.

SPEAKER_05: 22:22

Like it's it is it is wild to to be like, hey y'all, like this isn't who we are.

SPEAKER_00: 22:27

It's like yes, it is like we don't recently, it's exactly who we are.

SPEAKER_05: 22:31

We don't act like the country that's because we're big, we're gonna take your small little country, uh, or now huge country in Greenland. Um we're oh wait, that is who we are. That's exactly who we are, but it's not who we've been for the last couple decades. And so we feel well, at least not publicly.

SPEAKER_01: 22:48

Like this like like like this is the other thing. There's there's always been this kind of imperial streak that we that we act out econom that we act out economically. It hasn't been as brazen in the sense of like us trying to acquire land.

SPEAKER_04: 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:01

Um but you know, I mean, the coups, the coups that we've facilitated in Latin America and all, like and all that kind of stuff, like all of it is part of the same. Yeah, it's all part of the same impulse.

SPEAKER_05: 23:11

But that that line about uh the the boats. Uh who has the right of ownership anyway? They're still like because of a boat landed there a couple hundred years ago. You're like, wait a second. Are you are you making that argument? I think the uh Do you know how the I think some Native Americans would love for you to make that argument?

unknown: 23:36

Right?

SPEAKER_02: 23:37

Um my goodness.

SPEAKER_05: 23:38

That's absolutely wild. But you know what's good? Um, he did get the the Nobel Peace Prize from Maria Machado. Yeah, um and uh the the organization said you actually could receive it, but we're not awarding it. Um then he started his own board of peace that was uh chaired by himself and others uh other very peaceful countries.

SPEAKER_01: 24:03

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_05: 24:04

So we're good. Oh my goodness. We're in a good spot as well.

SPEAKER_01: 24:06

We're fine, everything's fine.

SPEAKER_05: 24:08

Everything's fine. Um, but that's not what we want to talk about. 2026, it can't continue to be just the gravitational pole of DJT. Um, and so we're we're sorry we just spent some more of our valuable time here on planet Earth talking about it. Um, but it does have huge implications.

SPEAKER_01: 24:24

Uh you know global geopolitics and all that.

unknown: 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 24:28

So what I think is more fun to talk about is the two corrupted Christianities in the gospel coalition. Malcolm.

SPEAKER_01: 24:38

Well, and this is a response to Wake Up Dead Man, the knives out movie.

SPEAKER_05: 24:42

Yes, yes. So uh Malcolm and I got to enjoy a a nice night uh with uh one another. We went uh came over to his house.

SPEAKER_02: 24:50

And our wives, our wives were there too.

SPEAKER_05: 24:51

And our wives came over.

SPEAKER_00: 24:52

Um I like that you said our lives came over. I like the thing our wives came over as though like we live together. We live together, our wives occasionally. Our friendship is at a new level.

SPEAKER_01: 25:09

I love that. I love that for us.

SPEAKER_00: 25:14

I didn't mean it this way, but it's fine. No, it's not maybe there's something subtle there.

SPEAKER_01: 25:18

Let's psychoanalyze that for a second. That's not. It's fine. Do I love you? Love you, Slim. Okay, moving on to the matter in hand. Here we go.

SPEAKER_05: 25:31

All right, so yes, we will discuss Wake Up Dead Man. So we we had we had a we had a great night together with our families. Yes. Um, minus kiddos. Um, and we watched uh Wake Up Dead Man, which is uh the third installment of Ryan Johnson's uh knives out. Um I don't know if it's just a trilogy. It might he might keep going. I think he said he enjoys making them so much he would love to make them the rest of his life. And I'm like, please do. I enjoy them. Um so they're very much like uh Who Done It? Uh clue, uh murder mystery. And so you're always guessing you're always you know left wondering what's going on. And so I think we watched it and we were like, this was great. Um it was shocking, I thought. Um it was kind of not a departure from his other ones in the sense like it was like v vastly different, but it was um surprising how much spirituality was um at play in this, and so kind of the the set the scene. Uh oh man, it's been a while. This was before Christmas, so we've probably watched this. Um but this to set the scene, there it's it's uh set in this Catholic church, and there's this Catholic priest um and and his uh assistant who are the guy who gets assigned to come be there, and there's like this tension between the two. Um but the the Catholic priest, the the head guy is uh what's his name? Uh Thanos, is how I I see him. The actor who plays Thanos.

SPEAKER_01: 26:50

Mr. Josh Josh Brolin. Josh Brolin, who's fantastic. He does your wicked.

SPEAKER_05: 26:54

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. He does so many great stuff, um, including Thanos. Um but uh anyway, so it's this picture it's set in this church scene, and there's like there's this dichotomy between uh Josh Brolin's version of Christianity and this uh this other priest's version of Christianity. Uh and so, anyways, it was a great movie, but at the end of it, Malcolm was like, Have you read this article from the Gospel Coalition? And so in the boat, right after we watched the movie, he's quoting it, and we're all just getting really angry. Like, what?

SPEAKER_01: 27:31

So we'll say, I'll say this. If you haven't seen the movie, there will likely be spoilers because I I will likely not hold back and think about the fact that I'm spoiling the movie. So it's fine. Yeah, but anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 27:44

So uh Brett McCracken. Um McCracken. Is he related to Sandra? Oh Sandy?

SPEAKER_01: 27:50

Uh oh my gosh. Why did I say that?

SPEAKER_02: 27:56

I don't know. I don't, I don't know. It's possible.

SPEAKER_05: 27:59

Anyways, uh, the Gospel Coalition is a website. Um, I used to enjoy uh cards on the table. Um Me too. I was in uh it seems like it's changed. Um, and maybe I've changed. I think I have. Um as well as we've uh changed. I think we have and they have, and uh, we just don't see the world the same. Um but uh Brett McCracken writes this article, and I wanted to contrast because he he he reviewed this movie, which is the one we talked about, and then a few weeks later, uh I took my family to go see the David movie, uh, and he re he re um reviews that one as well.

SPEAKER_02: 28:34

Did you feel as glowingly about David as he felt about David? So here's the thing because he loved it. It was like his favorite movie ever.

SPEAKER_05: 28:42

I think he and I have the exact opposite reactions to both movies.

SPEAKER_01: 28:47

Interesting. Interesting. You'll have to talk about David because I don't know anything. I haven't seen the movie, so we'll talk about that. Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 28:55

But uh let's talk Ryan Johnson. But briefly, let's talk knives out.

SPEAKER_01: 28:58

Let's talk Ryan Johnson.

SPEAKER_05: 28:59

Okay, so what what what what um what what what first in a positive sense, what is his main argument in this uh article, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_01: 29:07

Uh the main argument is that you uh basically there are two Christianities portrayed in in Wake Up Dead Man, and both of them are and both of them are insufficient.

SPEAKER_04: 29:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:23

Um and like and and like I mean the last so the last sentence of this article, I think, is what ended up making me upset. Uh well, I mean the whole thing to a certain extent. But it because it it's about also the the response of uh of Benoit Blanc to that Christianity at the end. And and at the end of this article, um McCracken says, had had Blanc encountered this sort of church, that is, he gives this description of what um McCracken gives this description of what the Christian church is supposed to be. Had he encountered this sort of church over the course of his investigation, Blanc might still have rejected Christianity, but at least he would have for a moment looked true Christianity full in the face. And and part of this comes from like what your expectation is of a movie like this. And and like if you go into if you go into a movie thinking that anything that claims to be Christian has to have a robust gospel presentation and like and all these kinds of things. Yeah, I think you're I like I just think you're guaranteed to be uh disappointed. Like Ryan, so Ryan doesn't never like he's he's not a Christian. Right, right. He's he's he's he has in many ways, so he grew up in evangelical Christianity, but but left it. And so like and and the way that he also talks about kind of what he what he did in this movie, like he's portraying what he thinks is is the best is is kind of the best of Christianity. Like that, like that's what it is. That's that that's what he planned to do. And so my expectations of the movie, I didn't I didn't even know this afterwards. I just watched the movie just kind of as a movie, and I was surprised. I was like, oh, look at these, look at these, um, look at these redemptive elements of it. For example, at the very end, I'm just gonna jump straight to a spoiler. So like I said, I said spoilers. But right at the end, when when we find out that Glenn Close's character is the is is the is essentially the um the one behind a lot of this. Dun dun dun um and and um and pat and Pastor Judd like takes her confession at the very end as she dies. Like my primary response to that moment was I hope that I would have the presence of mind as a pastor in that moment to react with exactly those words at that time. Yeah. Like that's what that's what my that's what my reaction was. Yeah. And yet, and yet, and yet in this, and yet in this, in this, in this article, that kind of Christianity is described by McCracken as just progressive, inclusive faith. There's another, there's another uh there was another quoted here because like part of it was a frustration with the fact that like talk of sin was absent from Judd's ministry. Yeah. And in this paragraph it says, notably, talk of sin is largely absent in Judd's ministry. His preferred term is brokenness. And in the film, greed and ambition for power are the only behaviors warranting correction. Your real inheritance isn't is in Christ, Judd Judd rightly tells one money hungry congregant. For all he talks of grace is Judd's a cheap grace that downplays turning from sin.

SPEAKER_00: 32:43

And I think it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_01: 32:46

Only greed and ambition for power warrant correct. Do you understand how serious greed and lust for power are? Yeah. Because you know, my whole thing is that like most of our sin actually boils down to, in many ways, greed. And I'm like, well, you know, the only thing that they talk about is greed. I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 33:06

Greed is is a sin and a significant vice.

SPEAKER_01: 33:11

I think the issue was that's that he was upset that like Judd was was uh that that that he used foul that he used foul language and he cursed on occasion, like nobody talks about that.

SPEAKER_05: 33:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:23

Alright, bro.

SPEAKER_05: 33:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:24

I see I I feel like I apologize for my raw response to this.

SPEAKER_02: 33:28

This is just my raw emotional response to this.

SPEAKER_05: 33:31

I feel like this is uh very much in line with anything everything else in the world where um you can hear one person's argument and then uh one side of the story, and then you have another person say this say completely the opposite thing uh to the responding to the same facts. And so I think because he is is uh seeing this through this one lens, he he depicts uh so Monsignor Wicks, he says, is the Trumpian faith. He was the he says he's the obvious proxy for Donald Trump and uh American Christianity, and he's you know preaches a fiery political sermons, and he he very much is very much like we've you know we've lost so much ground and we've you know we gotta take take this uh country back by force.

SPEAKER_01: 34:13

It's so interesting. Okay, but this is another interesting thing. Because he says he's obviously a proxy for Trump, as though Trump is concerned with presenting himself as a Christian figure. Like this is like this is the like like that's the like that's also a weird like that's also I think a weird response because like that's not I mean that's not the way that Trump presents it himself. Yeah. So like it would it's actually it actually doesn't make much sense for us to say that Wix is a proxy for Trump. Like Wix is a proxy for a particular type of Christianity, and Trump is not. Trump is not a representative of a particular type of Christianity. You have a bunch of Christians who want to claim him and thus and and thus and thus kind of corrupt the faith in order to make someone like Trump acceptable to it. But like that's not yeah, that's not actually what's going on here.

SPEAKER_05: 35:08

Yeah. So like there's a there's an uh example of you know Monsignor Wicks, the the main priest, you know, he the the the congregation is dwindling over and over and over, which is why they send uh Father Judd there to kind of help out. Um but he realizes he's intentionally sifting people out. So when visitors come, he can see like, oh, this person uh is struggling um because uh they maybe they had a divorce. And so then he he he goes in on divorce, or he sees maybe a uh a gay couple come in, and then he goes in on on uh homosexuality. Yeah, and and so he's driving people away intentionally. Yep. And so it was like, one, you're like, why is he doing this? But two, you just realize like there's just like a very much like a an us versus them element here. Yeah, um, but I think they they rightly um summarize this as there's a galvanizing force when you make it us versus them. It makes the unity of us that much stronger, right? Um, which is what I think is a good um cultural commentary on this version of Christianity. And so I even though Ryan Johnson is not a Christian, I think he's rightly assessing what is happening in some of the the churches in America that are becoming more and more polarized and in and uh right-wing version of Christianity, uh Christian nationalism, that they are finding themselves to be like, no, this is this is there's like a great unity, and and we see the world exactly the same way. And so I think he's he is depicting that. And and then to McCracken's credit here, he says, um when he comes into this broken congregation, Judd rightly observes that this is not the true church. So he did he he says he Judd rightly observes that that's not the true church. So to give McCracken credit there, but is this is the version of Christianity that Judd espouses much truer? So now he's like okay, well that's the wrong one. But is is Judd's the the the true version of Christianity? Um which what what what what was his main argument?

SPEAKER_01: 37:05

Because he didn't call out the sin of the Yeah, so uh the in the paragraph right before the thing that I said about sin, he says, Of course, there's much to admire in Judd's ministry. Aspects of O'Connor's uh endearing performance make this form of Christianity attractive. A priest who prays over the phone with hurting people, who clearly loves his flock and isn't just using them, a man who's quick to confess his own sins and and slow to judge others. But is his form of Christianity too appealing? What about the Bible's unpopular parts and the difficult necessity of repentance?

SPEAKER_05: 37:38

Oh my I get that we we can uh have the tail wag the dog, and so you're not trying to just be like, um, is it you does it just look appealing? Like we're not going for looking appealing, but I do think the gospel itself, Jesus himself is appealing because it's what we were made for.

SPEAKER_01: 37:58

Uh also, also, we have a very compelling account of confession and absolution at the very end of the movie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:08

Where this woman is about to die, yeah, and she confesses to the priest, and the priest reminds her of the of the of the boundless nature of Christ's forgiveness.

SPEAKER_05: 38:18

That's the whole thing. That's the whole thing. That's the whole thing! That's what we stand on. That's the whole thing. He writes, in contrast to Wicks, Judd wants a Christian more about hugs than fists. We are to serve here to serve the world, not beat it, he quotes from the movie. His ambition to show broken people like himself the forgiveness and love of Christ. Like, how is this a critique? How is that a critique?

SPEAKER_01: 38:42

Right after, like I said, this this series of paragraphs surrounding the greed thing is is really interesting to hear. So right after the cheap grace comment.

SPEAKER_03: 38:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:51

At one point, Judd describes the miracle Christianity offers. It's not about being cured or fixed, he says. Nowhere does he mention the miracle of the gospel and our blood bought salvation. Rather, the miracle is, quote, finding the sustaining power to wake up every day and do what we're here to do in spite of the pain, daily bread, unquote. Huh? The core of Judd's gospel feels flimsy, more akin to follow your heart motivation than soul-saving, synatoning good news. And this is like, and this is the thing about, I think, a particular kind of conservative evangelicalism is that it looks for particular words in order for something to be recognizably Christian. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 39:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:36

And insofar as those words do not exist, don't aren't aren't present, they're like, it's not recognizably Christian. Yeah. And like, and when at that point in the movie, when when when when he's describing, I mean, this this woman who has been looking for a cure for her physical illness throughout the entire movie. And at the end of the movie, movie she basically comes to come to terms with the fact that that's not what she's going to think she's just going to seek kind of trying to live live live each day um and and the fact that that like the fact that the Christian the fact that that apparently is not one of the things that the Christian faith offers the resources to in to in Christ be able to live a life of to live a life of suffering that's still a life of meaning. Like the fact that the fact that someone can't see the ways in which the Holy Spirit can do that. I mean it's just it's yeah it's unfortunate really because like I like I it it it it it closes our minds off to how holistic the gospel of Jesus Christ is and how holistic the Lord's work in and through us can be. Because like my thing is like I I I I want to uh you know I want to see this I want to see this book well it's not book this movie uh sympathetically because like I said the the filmmaker is not a Christian. Right. But there are but there are significant elements of the faith that are beautifully portrayed in this movie. Yes. My expectation is not that people watch this movie and become a Christian as a result. Because that's not I mean that's not the goal of it. But but if you if you can see the goodness of God in any of these things, in any art form or whatever, like that's that's awesome. It's beautiful. I want to be able to recognize beauty for what it is.

SPEAKER_05: 41:32

And maybe one of the most beautiful parts to me in this movie of Christianity was the uh Father Judd the the the one he's portraying as the the left wing seeker friendly church person he is he's actively working with um um the the detective to try to find who the murderer the murderer is and in the moment he hears someone saying like I I need prayer and he just stops everything and he sits and he prays with them and and and and the LeBlanc the the detective is like gone for like hours and he's like you're still praying with them? Like and it's like this beautiful picture of like hey here's what is most important. And so I I there's definitely elements here that I'm like this screams something good, true and beautiful and McCracken is just missing it. So I think what you just said about it um I feel bad that he can't see it. I think it's absolutely right because it what it does is what you said earlier as well that it unless it you say some specific words um almost like a a magical incantation yeah you it it robs you from seeing the the the fuller picture of the kingdom here.

SPEAKER_01: 42:45

And this and I'll uh two things and then I want to hear what you'd have to say about uh David one thing one thing is that so our our friend uh Jake Randolph also also wrote a piece for uh Pathios where he I think in a way that is a res that is actually a particular response to the TDC articles uh his his is called two two Christianities at the heart of of wake up of Wake Up Dead Man. And so uh so basically the what what the what McCracken describes as two corrupted Christianities uh um uh Jake outlines as two uh two particular expressions of two particular expressions of Christianity he has it's a it it's an it's an interesting it's an interesting article but one but but the other thing I want us to reflect on broadly and this can go into the David thing is also like just the way that we respond to art. Yep because like if my response to art is like yeah that yeah that's beautiful but here are all the ways that it could be more beautiful like I'm just like what like what are you like it's like you're looking at a tree I'm like that's a beautiful tree but like you know how that tree could be more beautiful like just just appreciate it for the beauty that it like the for the beauty that you see and thank the Lord for it and then move on yeah or make a movie of your own where you can do all the you do all the make it as Christian as you want or whatever. But like I'm not gonna expect a m I'm not going to expect a movie um like the the like like like that like that's the other thing. Like it's it it it it went far beyond my expectations because like I didn't I I was not expecting to go into a movie like this and have yeah you know kind of some of some of the most beautiful elements of the Christian faith.

SPEAKER_05: 44:36

And that I think this is the the difference though is I mean I'm okay with um people reviewing and critiquing art and editing being like movie reviews. But I think the the the difference is I think Brett McCracken is asking these movies to be sermons.

SPEAKER_01: 44:54

Right. Yeah yeah yeah yeah he he art any mention of Christianity means okay now I can run this through the lens of how I would do a sermon critique.

SPEAKER_05: 45:01

Yeah so I'm like it's one thing to critique the the movie itself and you if if his article was hey I think you you portrayed um uh Monsignor Wicks uh as like only like one sided like he didn't have a uh a another side so you like I can understand how you went there um but those people do exist right I know I was gonna say but if he if it's if if this was his critique I would have been like yeah I think that would have been more compelling if you would have shown like that element of it. But that wasn't his critique it was like it wasn't the right Christianity. And so because that's how he's filtering art which is just wild that he is his role at TJ's uh at the gospel coalition is to kind of review media and films it's gonna make all of his reviews this way. So that means David the movie David he the article is titled David is the best animated Bible movie since Prince of Egypt which I remember seeing that art that that headline without reading it going into the movie and I'm like that's this and I couldn't remember if he wrote this or not. So I was kind of my expectations are up. Yeah okay this is interesting at the same time uh I struggle with Christian movies sure um because usually and this is what what I loved when we had um our our friend uh our friend I'm I'm calling my friend uh Steven James on um when he's like making the argument that the art has to trump yeah the message yeah that the art has to be the most important part of this not the message because it's not a sermon. Right. Yes there's a message in all art but you can't make that the main thing um otherwise it's just too canned and you're like hey I want you have to believe what I believe. Yeah. And that's how I see Christian movies.

SPEAKER_03: 46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 46:42

David it was so weird because I I went almost um because there was nothing else at the at it was like Christmas time and like our family was like hey either we all go see anaconda which I feel like I we should have gone to see anaconda or see David and we watched the preview and all of our kids were like let's go see David I was like I don't want to be the dad's like no let's go see Anaconda. So we saw David Godless either we saw David and me and Kristen were just like interesting. Because it was over the top like uh triumphalistic Christianity and at the same time to its credit it was very biblically accurate in terms of like stories uh from from scripture um and afterwards my kids um who are not young um you know 15 13 12 loved it and I was like hey so uh there was they're like why did you struggle I they could tell me because we're like they're like what I was like I was like well no no no it's good it was good but uh you know I someone said it was better than Prince of Egypt. Did you guys like it? And they're like no we liked it better than Prince of Egypt which is I'm like no it's not better than Prince of Egypt. The music was so cheesy. It was uh sung by who what's his name um yeah Phil Wickham Phil Wickham which again no problem with Phil Wickham but like it was just it was over the top like the songs were not like Prince of Egypt you had you had Whitney Hewts and you had Epic Mariah you had Epic like it's not CCF it's epic so I'm just kind of like so here's the thing those two are not on the same level um but my struggle with the movie itself was not that it wasn't biblically accurate it was it painted David as kind of one-sided character and it wasn't the David who raped and the David who murdered and it was it was the little shepherd boy who grew up to be the king and all was well. And it was always like and I'm not saying you have to tell the whole story um but it was like a very one-sided David that I was just like and but and the like the songs were very much like we are gonna take over like this is like because there's like a war going on so I get it. But anyways it was just interesting I but I it didn't feel like I needed to say anything. But then reading his article here contrasted with his article on on the Knives Out movie. Yeah um he he just you could tell this is filtering through what he believes the art should be that it's this uh and it it it's to be a sermon. And on one hand this was a much better option for my kids at their age. However I would say that Knives out Wake Up Dead Man is a better picture of depiction of true Christianity than the David movie. Is that is that wrong for me to say that it's like saying I would rather someone watch a non-Christian movie by a non-Christian director than a book or a movie about a book of the Bible by a Christian direct like is that wrong Malcolm?

SPEAKER_01: 50:05

Yeah it's wrong uh you should repent. Sing tonight sing it here like it's like the like it's like the debate over like Christian rap and uh and what's and the way that Stephen James uh um talks about uh you know the way he writes his fiction like you you want it to be and this is something that show uh that show has said uh sometimes uh jokingly about about Christian hip hop but like it it should be good music like it should be a good book like a good story in a book like it it it it's it's because because the fact of the matter is that if if we if if we wanted to just if we wanted to just learn then we could just we could we could go to the scriptures for that. Like the screen the scriptures are great for that because that's they're perfect. Like they teach us who God is and and and what God requires of us.

SPEAKER_04: 51:06

But uh but sometimes man I what are you gonna say?

SPEAKER_01: 51:16

What are you gonna say? No I mean I I mean I just think that sometimes sometimes people think that you know that just if I use these particular words or these ideas that just that it's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_05: 51:29

And I'm just like no no like that's that's not yeah uh I think this is where I we can we can close the close the the the topic I I we all believe in common grace that the rain falls on the just and the unjust. Yes. And I think God is working through things that are not explicitly Christian all the time. Yes. And so that's why you can when you walk outside and see a sunrise and think of God because God is working through common grace. He's working through natural revelation as well as special revelation. And yes we like special revelation scripture. Yes but God is working through all this to where I I want us to open up our eyes uh to movies like um Wake Up Dead Man and even ones that aren't I mean that one is also wrestling with some more explicitly Christian stuff. There's still movies out there that may not ever mention Jesus or you know the church that still have great Christian themes in them and we can we can go into that stuff. As well as there's some Christian ones and I'm so not against them. It's just I I feel like Christians have historically used the the the protection of saying well we're Christian therefore our art doesn't have to be as high quality. There are exceptions to that rule show Baraka's art is fantastic. There are exceptions to that rule Stephen James's art through um his fiction books is fantastic. But I I think those are um exceptions to the rule um or the the norm as Christians. And so Christians uh man let's make better art I'll say and I'll I'll have this last thing.

SPEAKER_01: 53:01

Part of it is also because of marketing. So if you know like there there are people who think that if I do something that is branded as Christian, Christians are gonna buy it. And so it comes it also comes down to money when you have this captive when you have essentially a captive consumer base that looks for ooh where's the uplift where's this up I I just want an uplifting movie with Christian messages. They can spit that out pretty easy. But to have but to but to have something that really wrestles with the complexities of the faith in all of its seeming in all of its paradoxes and seeming contradictions and stuff like that, the messiness of what it actually means to live a life committed to Christ in a world that has all the stuff the other world's going on. Like there are it it it it's less it's just that's less sexy found it found the sound effect that's all I got first that's all I got.

SPEAKER_05: 54:04

Alright so you heard it here be less sexy I'm sorry if you're listening to this with a great takeaway kids in the car. 2026 is we're we're a little uh disc mobilated there's a winter storm coming we hope you're all gonna be safe and cold or warm um amidst the cold uh again as always um shoot your questions hello at the other pieces dot com um please do uh rate review share um that always helps us we will see you guys in two weeks bye y'all