SPEAKER_06: 0:23

What is up? Podcast World. Welcome to another episode of Theology Pieces. Everett and the fear of trying too hard.

SPEAKER_01: 0:40

Oh, yeah. That's good. That's nice. I like that. I like that.

SPEAKER_06: 0:46

Malcolm, how you doing today?

SPEAKER_01: 0:47

I'm doing, I'm doing alright, bro. I'm doing alright.

SPEAKER_06: 0:50

Hey, did you even notice? Um do you even do you even pick up on who I am anymore?

SPEAKER_01: 0:55

Probably not.

SPEAKER_06: 0:56

Do you notice what I wear? The the Baylor stuff that you're wearing? Oh stop. No. I'm just I'm just making a joke. Did you notice that our uh uh theme music has has reverted to season one?

SPEAKER_01: 1:11

Yeah, because it's great.

SPEAKER_06: 1:12

I love our season one I like season one music better. Yeah, me too. I just was like, you know what? It's one thing to change it every season. That feels like a bit much. Yeah. I just really like that me too. I brought it back, even though I still think as much as you may not be as impressed with that. Oh, that was good too. Yeah, that one was a good one, right? Yeah. That was my rage. Yeah, I know. I still got some rage in me. I know. Um, speaking of rage.

SPEAKER_01: 1:42

What an excellent segue.

SPEAKER_06: 1:46

Speaking of rage, oh, we have stuff to discuss. Really?

SPEAKER_01: 1:52

Oh. No, I'm not so much excited for that.

SPEAKER_06: 1:55

Aren't you ready for some terrible tweets? We you've missed it, haven't you? Dear listener, we've all missed terrible tweets. Uh this one comes from uh at Fat Post News. And uh, you know what? Let's just listen. Would would would you?

SPEAKER_01: 2:11

Did you plan to apologize to the family of Alex Brady?

SPEAKER_04: 2:15

Or what? Or, you know, labeling I'm just gonna stop right there.

SPEAKER_06: 2:28

But this is uh a re uh reporter interviewing um Vice President Vance asking him if he would uh uh change his tune about labeling Alex Predi as this uh what did he say? Um an assassin. With ill intent.

SPEAKER_05: 2:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 2:48

Because they instantly, so if you if you've been in a hole, uh we we recorded our last episode like right after this happened or right before it happened, and so you've probably heard a million uh news stories or articles on this, and so it's it's it's been there. Um but what I've I just I wanted to talk about here is now they're interviewing him after like instantaneously. So again, just to update you, man uh uh Minnesota uh nurse Alex Predi uh was shot and killed by ICE agents, uh shot ten plus times. Um and in the moment, right afterwards, uh all of the the highest officials up to Trump um would all said how he was this, you know, this this terrorist, uh and as as they're giving No no data or anything.

SPEAKER_01: 3:38

It's just like the the the only data, here's the thing. I've I've the only data that is relevant to them is the fact that ICE killed him. And and if that's the case, there's this assumption. I mean, from a number of force, I mean, this is for Stephen Miller and president and all these people that the that the assumption is just that law enforcement is always in the is always in the right. So if if that person was killed by law enforcement, it's because they did something, it's because they did something wrong. Like that, like that's how simple, that's how simple the logic is, and that's the root of what essentially becomes propaganda. Like anybody who anybody who um uh like basically anybody who the government treats as a threat is a threat. And that's the message that's that's the message that goes out, regardless of, regardless of data or truth.

SPEAKER_06: 4:28

And it it's it's one thing to believe. It's one thing to believe and hope the best in your people. And you know, I believe the best in you, I hope the best in you. If someone were to tell me that you went and uh shot a person, I would go, that's probably not right. I would probably start out with you. You should ask some questions, though. That mindset. At least ask some questions. Then after watching video evidence of this that he is now seen.

SPEAKER_01: 4:55

Doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_06: 4:56

I would have changed the tune.

SPEAKER_01: 4:57

The narrative is all that matters, Slim.

SPEAKER_06: 4:59

This is the wild thing of the world we live in right now. The narrative is all that matters, where it's it's one thing to just you know, to have your your your priors challenged, but it's another to say when it's challenged, you double, triple, quadruple down and matter, because the narrative is all that matters. And so they're like, would you apologize to the family of Alex Predi, who is this nurse who is a a vet nurse, like the one who's like serving the country, serving the empire, right?

SPEAKER_01: 5:29

I was like, does I said desire by accident because I was this is because this is how I operate in in intimate conversation. Just call me desire. I did with incident by accident. People that I'm close to, the person who I'm closest to, the person who I'm closest to is constantly in my mind.

SPEAKER_06: 5:48

So I need more sound effects for the wildness, wildness of this. No, I'm sorry. I I just in case you're asking, I do. No, if you're asking, if you're proposing to me, I'm not asking. I do.

SPEAKER_01: 6:00

I'm not asking. All I'm saying is like the situation that we find ourselves in is one where ladies and gentlemen, there is I've got to get him off the track.

SPEAKER_06: 6:09

I have to get back to what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_01: 6:12

Um then not only is the narrative all that all that matters, but but part of an element of it is there is a refusal to say I'm sorry and I was wrong. Yeah. There is an absolute just jettisoning of humility in every single form. 100%. There's it's just not there at all because what is important is that I am right. Every decision that I've ever made is right, every decision that I'm gonna make in the future is right. Just get in line. Like that's what the that's what the message, that's what the message is. I would love I would be so encouraged if at some point the government said about something, I'm sorry, but that's also because their leadership just can't, just can't. Like and it's part of it's also it's also part of our like this is part of our national corruption too, because as a nation, uh, we seem deeply resistant to reckon to reckoning with the ways in which we have committed profound uh evil. But if we want to be uh if we want to maintain this image of being uh the global hero or whatever, part of it, at least for the myth for for a lot of people, that mythology requires us to always be in the right.

SPEAKER_03: 7:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:30

And it's just it's it's a it's such a deeply corrupting thing.

SPEAKER_03: 7:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 7:39

Yeah. It's it I don't know what else to do. I mean, there's like you what other arguments do you need when you see something like this? You go like, no, this is clearly wrong. And I there have been some It's Cox Romana stuff, man. There have been some who've come out and been like, oh, okay, now that's wrong. Because it then the response was like, well, he shouldn't have brought in a gun to um a protest. And then every person who saw uh what was his name in uh Wisconsin, uh the student guy, the the young guy with AK 47, Alex Rittenhouse. Yeah, Rittenhouse. Was this this common like rebuttal to this? They're like, you were not making the same argument. It this is just the epitome of all of our conversations. It no one, not no one, many are just going, hey, if it helps my tribe, yeah, I'll make the argument. If it works against my tribe, I won't. And so, like, how do we Epstein files, man? Epstein Files. I mean, it's just the epitome of that. Arguing to release the files that once they get the opportunity, go, well, here's the thing. And they're out and they're terrible. They're absolutely, absolutely terrible. Yeah. They are. They are. Now, Malcolm, um, given the just the horribleness, the the just the disgustingness, but also like the the the the gravitas, the the weightiness of all of this. Um, I I sent you a uh a text um after so every to every time we send each other our sermons ahead of uh Sunday, uh I sent him and for you know feedback and to go like, hey, that's heresy. Um you should probably you know rethink your faith. Um things like this. Um I sent my sermon to Malcolm, and then I also said, Hey, none of this is includes anything about Minnesota or ice or anything like that. Should I rethink this? And you had a response of like, you know, well, does it teach Christ like this?

SPEAKER_01: 9:32

I mean Yeah, because I mean because at least for us and for our congregation, like the congregation knows what we think. Like it's not it, it's not ambiguous what whether we think that ICE is cool and doing great stuff. Like it's not no one.

SPEAKER_06: 9:48

We're actually uh a recruiting ground for ICE.

SPEAKER_01: 9:56

And I I've been thinking about this kind of on and off for the last like six years, because um, you know, stuff like this is constantly happening. And um and it's not it's not my job to give, especially in um especially in the sermonic context, like it's not my job to give uh kind of hot takes on evil things that Rome does. Um I think because I I mean if you think about even in the even in the New Testament, I mean the New Testament is written under an oppressive empire. There's plenty of stuff that's happening. Um and I mean besides the book of I mean the book of Revelation is an entirely kind of essentially anti-Roman Empire book.

SPEAKER_05: 10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:40

Um but but but but like but I I want to constantly be reminded that my purpose, especially as a preacher, is to not only expound the word, but to uh show people how it applies to the world around them. And so when there's when there's confusion about evil, I want to pee obviously I want to pierce through that. Obviously, I want to pierce through that, pierce through that confusion.

SPEAKER_06: 11:03

Um well you you you sent me this uh Instagram video that I thought was uh uh quite funny.

SPEAKER_00: 11:10

Oh, look over here at the Epstein files, societies run by demon-worshipping pedophiles who do torture rituals. No, no, no, no, no, eyes back on Christ. Oh, look over here, they're rolling in a mass surveillance police state using ice as a proxy. No, no, no, no, no, no, eyes back on Christ. But look over here, immigrants are flooding your country, taking all of your jobs and housing options. No, no, no, look over here. It's actually the billionaires who are accelerating the 2030 agenda. You will own nothing and be happy about it. No, no, no, no, no, eyes back on Christ. That's how it feels lately, living life. I can't help but think of one of my favorite gospel.

SPEAKER_06: 11:43

Yeah, so this is uh from uh Garrett Beringer, um who's wearing an Ohio State beanie, which uh, you know, if that disqualifies him or not.

SPEAKER_01: 11:53

Well, it's funny because he got pushback from um for that video and then did another and then did another video where he's like, This is this is not me saying that you just kind of go into a corner and you just kind of pray all the time.

SPEAKER_06: 12:06

I think that's the the the the the And that's what people think the rub.

SPEAKER_01: 12:10

I think that's the rub. The reaction is this is so and this is this this is also personal because like I I was I was telling you this, and now I'm telling every uh I was talking to Micah Edmondson about this too. Um name drop about because he's friends, friends, friends of mine. Anyway, uh because this is what I talked to my friends about.

SPEAKER_06: 12:28

Elon Musk. My friend. No, never mind, never mind, never mind.

SPEAKER_01: 12:32

I don't know how Micah feels about being compared to Elon, but uh but but but part of it is like the way that I've been thinking through these things, particularly with my like social and political up uh pessimism.

SPEAKER_03: 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:44

So I used to like uh back in undergrad in the years following, I think I had a deep social and political pessimism that was because I was basically premillennial, in the sense that like I was just like, well, obviously the world is terrible, like and the Lord's gonna burn it all up and we'll start all over, and that's fine, but world's terrible. Okay. Then about six years ago, especially when we planted mosaic and we, you know, in the values of or biblical values, um uh uh uh necessarily leading to a commitment to social justice, that kind, that like that kind of thing. Um, and also in thinking about like the way that I preached then, where you know, that was one of the things that constantly guided the way that I thought about uh even application. But there was a certain, I think there was a certain social and political optimism that was present there. I have swung back, but what, what, what, what, well, and part of it was also because of a certain understanding of the parable of the wheat and the tares. The wheat and the tares, they're gonna grow together. You're gonna get frustrated that the tares are there, but it the Lord is the one who's gonna do the harvest. Okay. Now I'm in a now I'm now I'm back in a position of deep social and political pessimism, uh, which is a, I think, a deeper understanding of the parable of the wheat and the tares because I'm feeling the deep frustration of the agricultural worker who looks around and sees the wheat and sees the tares and gets really, really frustrated by the presence of the tares and like, I really want to tear these things up. To which the Lord says, No, no, no, I'm gonna do it. You focus on me. Like that, that, that, um, my expectations of the kingdoms of the world is that they are going to do kingdoms of the world thing.

SPEAKER_03: 14:30

Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 14:31

Um, and so uh, and so like it it's as time goes on, that expectation just gets kind of more and more clear. But my responsibility in those in those spaces is to recognize that the evil and the and this is something that actually that that Garrett says in his in his um in in in another one of his videos, that like our primary struggle is not it's not against the federal government, it's not against uh evil agents of the state or whatever, it's it's against demons. And so, and so like the fact is that as we go through our lives, we are also constantly beset by temptations to pride, to pride, anger, lust, envy, gluttony, greed, and sloth. As we, as we are, as as we're faced with opportunities to love our neighbors, especially to protect those who are made vulnerable by this system, the temptation is going to be those those temptations to those sins are still going to are still are still going to remain. We have to be able to be able to shape a people who in being shaped in Christ-likeness are then being shaped to be able to live in this world in a way, um, in a way that bears witness to the good news of to the good news of Jesus Christ. Um, and so, but like that's but that's always the that's always the focus. And that also gives us a pro it gives us a proactive bent rather than one where we're just constantly reacting to the evil around us. Because that's all that that's also what the enemy wants. The enemy wants us to be constantly on our on our heels, reacting to various evil things that are happening and getting really bent out of shape and being distracted from the ways in which, from the ways in which these from the from the ways in which demons are actively drawing us away from the Lord. Yeah. Um, and so uh and it and the internet helps with this because we can constantly be bombarded by profound evils that we can do absolutely nothing about. And so we just get stressed out about stuff and we feel like there's nothing we can do about it. Um, but this is also why, like, you know, it's why these practices of of prayer, of fasting, of of solidarity with the poor, like all these things remind us um of the work that the Lord still has yet to do in us.

SPEAKER_06: 16:52

Um but anyway, sorry, that was yeah, and I think I think the the the heartbeat behind um what what he was arguing uh was hey, look over here. Uh you know, these terrible things. Uh no, eyes back on Christ. Look over here, eyes back on Christ. And the heartbeat behind that, um I am I am feeling myself needing that that rebuke because I I personally um was only looking over at those things and going, here is the injustice. We have to do something, we have to say something, we have to uh respond um and forgetting where the true power is in Christ. Um and I think maybe the root the pushback he received for that video and just the general tension though, I think is he he's pushing back on one thing, but he's not and I think that's probably what the f I didn't watch the follow-up video, but that's probably what the follow up video is, yeah, is saying, no, no, it's still important to like know about these things. Yeah. So like the thing that I thought was wild was okay, one, Alex Predic gets murdered. He gets murdered by ice, he gets and then a whole discussion is on on ice and uh uh murdering him. And not hardly any of the conversation is on what why he got murdered is because he was stepping in to protect how ICE agents just push this woman to the ground. Her name was Stella Carlson. Like she is the the victim in this moment that he's like I think rightfully responding to like this is where I'm like, I still want to know about what's happening in our in our like if this was happening in Waco, yeah. I want to know about this. I want to have whistles like they have in Minnesota to like know about this stuff so that you can step in, yeah, and yet not have that to be like the the the sun at which all of our life is now orbiting around.

SPEAKER_05: 18:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 18:44

Because that is just so discouraging and like despondent, and you're like, that can't be because it also like not only discouraging despondent does that make us, but two, like that's not reality, right? Like it's it's Christ, right? And Christ is gonna overthrow these unjust powers.

SPEAKER_01: 18:58

And this is what empire like empire wants us to be constantly thinking about it all the time because it is because it is presenting itself as an as an antichrist, really. Yeah, like that, like that's like it's an but the but the thing about antichrists is that they want the attention that is only due the actual Christ. And so and so like so we it like I I we I I I I I want us to be uh you know, I want us to be really careful about how we um uh just to be to to in many ways kind of audit our mental and emotional energy and to really think about where where and on what am I spending it.

SPEAKER_05: 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:46

Um because because if we really do that audit and find, wait a minute, there is a lot a lot of my time and energy is spent thinking about and staring at empire. I'm like, what that's gonna shape me, that's gonna shape me in some in some ways that are likely not gonna be super healthy.

SPEAKER_03: 20:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:05

Um if now, if it's a matter of, no, but as I look at those things, I am constantly running them through the sieve of Christ. Well, that's different. That's you looking at all all these things through that lens. But if but if you're but if if you're noticing that a lot of your mental and emotional energy is spent is spent purely just purely on the matters of empire, yeah, that's it's it's going to malform you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 20:31

100%. 100%. So um I think it's important for us to to know the news, but not to be shaped by the news. Um, to uh be aware of it. This is why I think it is a good question to ask. Should we comment, should we consider it in our Sunday services? Uh to be aware, does it how much, but also to not feel like this is the only thing that we can um that that is uh uh an appropriate response here. Yeah. Um hey, last week we had a uh a listener write in in response to one of our episodes. Thankfully, they did not um say, How dare you um ruin uh Wake Up Dead Man for me? I forgot to say spoiler, spoiler, spoiler! I said spoiler, I said spoiler. I should have put it in the notes. I I put it in the notes like uh a week afterwards. So I apologize if uh we ruined the movie for you.

unknown: 21:22

Sorry.

SPEAKER_06: 21:23

Heads up if you've not gone back and listened to that episode. We do ruin uh the ending of Who Done It in Wake Up Dead Man. Um, but we hopefully you can go back to listen to that episode. Uh but uh our good friend John Cheedy uh wrote in and said one of the themes of Wake Up Dead Man uh is about the sins of the hypocritical leaders, and it's matched by the story of the singer of the song that played uh in the Devil themed pizza bar. Um so you know, you know that that that uh scenes that are in the devil themed pizza bar. There's one scene where they have the music in the background, and the song in the background is by an artist named Larry Norman, and the song is Titled, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music? Which I guess Ryan Johnson, the director, has used his stuff in uh multiple films.

SPEAKER_01: 22:09

Interesting.

SPEAKER_06: 22:10

Um and so John um was just talking about how much he loved uh Larry Norman. Um and you know, he's saying how you know some of his songs were were a little cheesy um um songs, and but he was kind of the this this person who was too religious for the world and too worldly for the church. Uh he kind of wrote in between those things. But he has a uh a great line in one of his songs um where he says, Jesus told the truth, Jesus showed the way. There's one more thing I'd like to say. They nailed him to the cross, then they laid him in the ground, but they should have known you can't keep a good man down, which is a great line. Um, but uh I think Larry Norman seems to be like the the pinnacle um of the type of person that Wake Up Dead Man is for. Um in that he's he has apparently there's a documentary movie made after him uh called Fallen Angel, we can link in the show notes. Um kind of uh depicting uh someone like a Ryan Johnson or someone like um uh the the priest in that movie, who is um kind of not necessarily the the perfect um religious saint, uh, but someone who is uh struggling and wrestling with the truth here. Uh so I just anyways, I hope you guys do get to enjoy that. Um we had another uh listener write in and say, like, oh gosh, that movie is amazing. We shouldn't do like a movie night now. So we will be preaching the gospel of Wake Up Dead Man.

SPEAKER_04: 23:31

Alright. Alright.

SPEAKER_06: 23:44

Well, hey, um, we want to move into our discussion now as we uh talk about this Ash's effort and the fear of trying too hard. Um, and this is in response to an article um that Christianity Today has published, and I have enjoyed Christianity Today as of late. Um, and uh this is written by a guy named Michael Horton, and if you are not uh familiar with him, he is a uh what what he's a professor at uh Westminster um California, I think Westminster California. Big time theologian. He's written a bunch of books um that I I used to read religiously. Uh and so it's not surprising. This is his article. Um, but the title of the article is Disciplines Don't Save, Christ Does. Uh in the subtitle, Michael Horton exhorts Christians to not confuse discipleship with the gospel. Um one line that particularly stands out to me. So he is in this article. Um, you will link in the show notes so you can read it yourself. Um, but he is particularly arguing against uh John Mark Comer, who has written um a book called Practicing the Way, um uh, which is a more modernized version of um, you know, some of the spiritual discipline books that you uh some uh kind of like updating them a little bit. And so it's really good stuff, I personally believe. Um, but there's a line in this article where he says uh Comer, John Mark Comer, acts as if no one had thought about discipleship in the kingdom of God until he came along.

SPEAKER_01: 25:21

Hey, yeah, that's pretty uh That is uh scathing review.

SPEAKER_06: 25:28

That's that's pretty uh do you agree with that take? That's pretty spicy. Do you think John Mark Comer comes off with that arrogance? Well, I mean, so here's the thing.

SPEAKER_01: 25:38

Like oh, you do no, I I say this as somebody who like didn't read practicing the way.

SPEAKER_06: 25:43

Uh so like but I Dallas Willard is is kind of his his uh mentor in in and that's where he was um drawing a lot of his his source material from.

SPEAKER_01: 25:56

Yeah, yeah, and Willard and and and Richard and Richard Foster, like that, like that, I love that. I mean, especially over the course of the last year, I've come to love that tradition. That I mean, that is it was actually, I think, rereading uh the spirit of the disciplines that got me into my slippery slope to orthodoxy. Um, but but um but yeah, I mean I I could see how, and this this this this will bring in, I think, the broader conversation of what's going on in this in this article. I could see how Dr. Horton would think this. Part of it is because he says that the problem with Comer's emphasis, this is the sentence right after the one you quoted, is is equating discipleship with the gospel. And part of this, okay, so there are there are a few things going on in my head.

SPEAKER_06: 26:48

That's a lot there.

SPEAKER_01: 26:49

I'm only gonna name a few of them because I want us to go back and forth, and I don't want this to be uh Malcolm Monologue. Okay, first so first issue. Um I want to personally jettison this is gonna sound this is gonna sound aggressive. Um what is I think foisted on us as a kind of evangelical orthodoxy. Meaning there are certain words that we like have to use in a particular way that's not dictated by the creeds or anything like that. It's just by a certain reception of Reformation theology. And and and one of those things is this word gospel.

SPEAKER_06: 27:40

Because there is Malcolm does not believe in the gospel.

SPEAKER_01: 27:44

I d clear clearly not. Uh I've been told I've been like this is the argument that I had with Thaddeus Williams about social justice.

SPEAKER_06: 27:52

Oh my gosh, we've not responded to that. Okay, that's gonna be a new episode.

SPEAKER_01: 27:55

So, but like if the if this whole thing about the question it was a debate. Yeah, about like the question of whether so like of me being like I have been accused of saying that social justice is the gospel. Here's the thing I want to say about you did argue that, right? Here's the thing, here's the thing I want to say, but here's the thing I want to say about the way that people feel about this word gospel and and and and all these other things that they say are not the gospel, discipleship is not the gospel or whatever. Jesus says, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will have no part in me. Jesus also says, unless you are born again of water and of the spirit, you will not enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus also says, Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father. I if there is an understanding of the word gospel that does not incorporate those things that Jesus said, I don't know what you're talking about. First issue. Second issue, you have there is a there's a there's a phrase in this in in here, and he and he he says it, he says it a few, he says it a few times, but I want to I want to find the sentence. Um because I I I was like, are you are you gonna say it this way? Because I'm gonna have a problem with you saying it this way. Um uh okay. Basically, and I'll find I'll find the sentence because it I mean it's it's very it's very simple. I just I just want to point to it specifically. But he says, Jesus is the gospel.

SPEAKER_04: 29:29

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 29:30

And and I'm like that that seems to me to be a category error. Jesus is a person. Jesus is the eternal son of God, made man for us and for our salvation. Like that's who Jesus, like Jesus is not a message, Jesus is a person. And so like, but but but but but but like that's the kind of confusion uh that pops up when this word, all of these things are poured into this word gospel that then makes us say really imprecise things. Yeah. And Dr. Horton is a brilliant, like brilliant theologian and stuff, but like, but there are some elements of what I think has become a certain kind of evangelical orthodoxy that leads people to say really not careful things, even at even at that very beginning, the very beginning, that disciplines don't save, Christ does.

SPEAKER_02: 30:28

That's a particular understanding of what of what salvation means.

SPEAKER_06: 30:33

Does does Christ save Malcolm?

SPEAKER_02: 30:34

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06: 30:36

Do discipline save?

SPEAKER_02: 30:37

I so here's what here's here's what I want to say about that.

SPEAKER_06: 30:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:40

Because I'm I'm firmly I'm firmly in the in the camp that sees salvation as not just a one-time thing because it's it's the way that Paul frames it. Like there are there are ways in which we have been saved, there are ways in which we are being saved, and there are ways in which we will be saved.

SPEAKER_02: 31:00

And some of the means by which Christ works that salvation in us is through the discipline of our will, because our wills need to be saved. And and in order for that to happen, our wills need to be actively disciplined. It's why Paul says we be beats his body into submission, because there's a because there's a necessity to that.

SPEAKER_01: 31:17

And the and but there's a there's a fear in a number of these circles, there's a fear of the language of necessity.

SPEAKER_02: 31:25

And I'm like, Jesus is not afraid of that language. Yeah, to go back to what you were saying, the fear of trying too hard. It's like that the Jesus isn't afraid, Jesus isn't afraid to tell us to do stuff and to be like, it's necessary that you do these things.

SPEAKER_06: 31:38

So do you think uh Horton and uh those in this camp are pushing back against legalism? Yes, or against or against effort itself.

SPEAKER_01: 31:49

I think they're pushing back against legalism with language that ends up being a pushing against effort.

SPEAKER_06: 31:55

So they start so define legalism.

SPEAKER_01: 31:57

I don't think they're starting off to like the perfect like I mean I think it's I think it's a well and and the and the massive boogeyman of works-based salvation. I think that's the like that's that's really what's in like that is that is the scariest boogeyman in the heart of most like magisterial Protestants. Is that like you do what uh whatever I say, it I don't want it ever to be interpreted as works-based salvation. Yeah. Like that, that's I think what it that's I think what it what it comes what it comes back to.

SPEAKER_06: 32:34

Like the the the epitome of this would be kind of uh Ephesians 2, you know, for grace you have been saved through faith, and it's not your own doing. It's the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. This is the kind of bedrock foundation for this this doctrine, this belief. Yeah. So we are saved by grace uh and grace alone. Yeah. Um, through faith, it's not your own doing. It's a gift. So you've not earned it.

SPEAKER_05: 32:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_06: 32:57

And so, legalism, what they're trying to push against is this belief that you may earn uh your salvation, that you, if you do X, Y, and Z, you have a right standing with God.

SPEAKER_01: 33:10

Uh, and so they're pushing back against this, but are they As they have been for 400 years as a particular under as their understanding of Catholicism, basically.

SPEAKER_05: 33:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:21

And then like that, like that polemic, that polemic focus is like core to reformational identity now.

unknown: 33:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:29

And like, and my thing is like, ooh, it's like the way that when people um uh uh caricature cal Calvinism, quote unquote, as the um as as tulip, when tulip is a specific polemical response framing. Yeah. And like, and my thing is like when your when when your definitions are dictated by polemic, it it weakens, it weakens you.

SPEAKER_03: 33:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 33:59

And that's and that's that's what I'm that's that's that's I think what's what's frustrating me here is that that that polemic, particularly against works-based salvation, leads you to ignore all of the language of necessity that's just in the scriptures, which you claim to actually be your primary, uh, your primary commitment. Yeah um, when it it often appears to be the case that actually the primary commitment is this particular polemical standing against these specifically book like boogeyman.

SPEAKER_05: 34:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:31

Uh it's like what I say that I'm like, like everybody doesn't have Luther's pathology.

SPEAKER_06: 34:37

Um Luther, uh, if you are unfamiliar, so Luther, Martin Luther is responding to the Catholic Church and the Reformation, right? The Reformation is reforming the church uh from the abuses and the scandals that the Catholic Church was was uh participating, leading in. Um and so one of the the pinnacle ones was um the the abuse of um uh what's it called uh now um to pay for sin indulgences. Um so you you pay the money so that you can you know you can uh um basically pay off your sin. Um and so there there's like this the pinnacle of works-based um or financial-based um uh way of of in infusing this. And so Luther is fighting against that day that person of the day. Um and or early Luther, right? There's and so this is this is where I think Horton, Michael Horton, um Chevidgean, I'm trying to think of some others in this camp that would argue this. Um man, I bought this book line and sinker so hard. Um so I I I was a part of a church um that was like just like seeing this as and we were I I think we were trying to diagnose our our our our community and in saying that I think our community was also um responding in this way that we live in a culture that is um as a works-based culture. And so we were trying to communicate to that to the culture of saying, like, no, the gospel is like you know, you know, rest in Jesus. And like I'd still preach that sermon um that you should rest in Jesus. But let can I can I let me give you this.

SPEAKER_01: 36:20

Please, please, please, please. Because I I want I also want to get to that rest in Jesus thing because I think it it points to a deeper impulse in Protestantism that I think that well we'll we'll talk about that. Go ahead, go ahead, please, please, please.

SPEAKER_06: 36:31

So this I found in my archives, Malcolm. You're gonna love you're gonna love this. Okay. I found uh two radio ads that we put out to to the city of Waco. Okay. Thirty second ads. Here we go. Interesting.

SPEAKER_04: 36:44

Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_06: 37:27

That's fascinating. Let me give you one more. Let me give you one more. This is uh this is the Christmas version.

SPEAKER_04: 37:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 38:10

That's an amazing slogan. That's an amazing slogan for a church that tried so hard. Okay, so okay, so so let me so let me go back to this that I think this gets at. I think, especially for many of us as Protestants, the pinnacle, like the kind of emotional pinnacle of the faith is is assurance. All of this is really a str like all of this is really like a struggle for assurance.

SPEAKER_03: 38:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:42

And uh, and we're really uncomfortable, I think, with thinking about the Christian life as a life of struggle.

SPEAKER_03: 38:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 38:51

And and I like, and I say this as somebody who like I mean, and and like I am now basically firmly in the latter camp where I'm just like, we like it, we're just we're going to struggle until we die. Like it's we're like we real, like we we really are. Like that's like we're gonna struggle, we're gonna struggle with with with with doubt, with temptation, with all like all these things. Like we're just we're gonna struggle until we die. Like that's that's just a fact. Like we it anything other than that is is uh we're just lying to ourselves. But it's but it's because it's because we are reminded of what it is that the Lord has actually prepared for us. So this goes back to another quote from this from this article. Uh Horton says, A disciple, a disciple is first and foremost a recipient of good news. Following the example of Jesus is an important part of discipleship in the gospels, but it is not the gospel. And I and I'm just like, I why am I using a word to summarize a thing that is not that doesn't have wide swathes of the Christian life involved in it? Like like following the example of the thing is, like following the example of Jesus is not something that is conceived of nakedly. The Christian follows in the example of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit because that's the body that we've been baptized into. Like, like it's not that it's not that it's not that the example of Jesus is just kind of offered nakedly. It's that it's that when we e even when we think about kind of what Christ what Christ did, what Christ did on the cross and and in his resurrection. Like I I it's just the the frustrate the frustrating thing to me about the like don't don't try so hard. I'm just like but that's not what Jesus that's not what Jesus said. So here's the here's the point. There's a in uh Matthew, uh where it is in ah, I can't remember the the exact citation. But what Jesus says is he says, from the from the time of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of God suffers violence and the and the violent take it by force. And it's a it's like an ambiguous, it's kind of an ambiguous text. But a lot of the monastic tradition through the history of the church has taken that to mean if you wanna go, if you want your life to actively be shaped in a way that conforms, that conforms to Christ, it takes effort. Yeah. You got it takes effort because you are in a war. And that and and like and that like and that's and but the but the fact is like I mean you're gonna you're gonna win because Christ is already, because Christ has already won. But that does not negate, that does not negate the fight. That you you are you we we we are each we are each facing battles with the passions, yeah, and they don't go away by us just like saying things about them. No, they go away through the through the discipline of our wills and our bodies and our minds.

SPEAKER_06: 42:07

Which is where John Mark Comer, the Prax in the Way, or you know, we'll we'll go the OGs uh with Dallas Willard and Richard Foster um uh are are arguing for with practicing these disciplines. Um Because I want to be like like I want to be like Christ. And and that's what God created me for. Yeah. And I if I were to go back and listen to those commercials, um, part of me like would go, like, yes, like the the first one, um, with the woman kind of over, you know, sharing all the different things that are stressing her out. I would say, like, hey, quit trying so hard in these things, yeah. Like these things aren't bringing you life. Like, I think this is the the epinnacle of us running the rat race. And you're like, yeah, stop running the rat race. Um, and then the other one of like trying you know, quit trying to be so good because the only person who was good is Jesus. Um I'm like, well that word, it's like that thing.

SPEAKER_01: 42:55

It's like when when we uh um uh it's it's it's like one of the I think bad ways of reading the Sermon on the Mount where you where uh it's like oh this is just this impossible standard, but it's okay because Jesus did it, so now you can just go on with your life.

SPEAKER_02: 43:10

No, like Jesus does actually expect you.

SPEAKER_06: 43:13

Scripture, and this is the funny thing. The funny thing. I I I I'm on my tombstone is gonna be so many regrets. Is the the the epitaph on my tombstone is is so many regrets, and one of them is this radio ad. Because it's like quit trying so hard in in contrast to scripture, where we're where you know Jesus says, strive to enter through the narrow door in Luke 13. In Philippians 3, Paul says, not that I've already attained this, but I press on to make it my own. I strain forward.

SPEAKER_01: 43:43

Straining and striving.

SPEAKER_06: 43:44

First Corinthians 9, run in such a way as to get the prize. I discipline my body and keep it under control. Hebrews 12 let us run with perseverance. Like there is straining, there is effort, and it's not saying, and I think the the The contrast here to to push against legalism is we're s you know, legalism might say like you strive so that you can earn your status before the Lord. And you're like, this has nothing to do with status. Yeah. Right. Like Christ has proclaimed you his son, his daughter, and now strive. And now, like, yeah, you like this is this is the the kind of the the the dual nature here of God's sovereignty, human free will, like God, God working in us, working, you know, the the flippings too, like, you know, yeah, work out of the world. And yet it's it's Christ who's doing the work. It's like it's like he's telling you to do the work, but it's also Christ who's doing the work.

SPEAKER_01: 44:38

But like but that's the other thing, like the fear and trembling element. Like it points to the fact that this is still a life of of struggle. Like there's a like there's a sense in which I think we in in in this kind of rabid pursuit of assurance, we want to find some way to be able to work out our salvation without fear and trembling. Yeah.

unknown: 45:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 45:02

Yeah. And like it's why uh, you know, it's why one of the one of the disciplines is uh is remembrance of death, because it's you being reminded every day that like one day you're gonna stand before the Lord in judgment. Like that's like that, and and like, and that's real. Like it does, it it it's not and that and that fear and trembling is not a like paralyzing terror, but it's like you reckon like recognize that this is a life of struggle, but it's a life of struggle that we're not only it's one that we're engaged in together, but the Lord has given us profound resources for comfort.

SPEAKER_02: 45:37

He's given us, he's given us the supper, he's given us his his very body and blood because he's like, I know you need nourishment in order to live this life. He's given us, he's given us the church because he's like, You're not, you can you're not gonna do this on your own. You're not gonna be able to hold yourself accountable. That's why you've got other people. Like he gives us the he gives us the encouragement of the word.

SPEAKER_01: 45:53

Like all of these things, like that like all those things are things that we don't ever stop needing those needing those things. Yeah. Um, and so like, so that's well, Malcolm, you've convinced me on on some of this.

SPEAKER_06: 46:10

Okay, but you you you did go too far.

SPEAKER_05: 46:12

Okay. Where did I go too far?

SPEAKER_06: 46:15

You texted me earlier this week.

SPEAKER_05: 46:16

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 46:17

And I don't know if I'm there. Um Malcolm has officially given up his his Christianity card. Um as as one of you believe that. As one uh who uh is was deeply rooted in the reformed faith. Um and and just you know, a Christian, um and in the I guess Protestant faith, the Reformation was is pretty pretty primary.

SPEAKER_05: 46:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 46:48

Like it is, yeah. And and the um the bumper sticker of the Reformation, the thing that you say, like, here, what is it? It would be the five solas. Um right? So the the the the the five solas, the the which is uh the Latin word for only, um, are gonna be the the things that you would say, like, what is the reformation? And it's gonna be sola scriptura, uh, scripture alone, sola fide, faith alone, sola gracia, grace alone, solus Christus, Christ alone, and solideo gloria, glory to God alone. And Malcolm says, I don't believe any of that.

SPEAKER_01: 47:21

No, I did not say that. Okay, he didn't say that. But similar to the rest of the conversation that we've had, is that it's really interesting when you become more and more aware of the polemical context of a number of these summaries. Yeah. Um, because people can treat those summaries as as though they are actual attempts to be summaries, when really they're particular polemical claims. And so, like, so uh so whether, so for example, when you think about the uh the process and affirmation of Sola Scriptura, it's it is it is specifically a response to a particular understanding of church tradition. So it is it is specifically to say, hey, uh actually, like script the it's it's it's to it's to tier these things. So like tradition can be cool, like we're not saying tradition is bad, but it's all but it's all to be held, but it but it's like the final you know authority on all matters of the city. Scripture's the final authority of all on all those things. Um and when it comes to like the faith, the faith and the faith and works thing, because this because this is what I was thinking about it, because as I was about to preach Romans 5, 12 to 19, but thinking about just revisiting the justification uh conversations.

SPEAKER_05: 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 48:39

Um, you know, especially in light of, you know, uh, because James, you know, James says in in in uh in James 224 specifically, you see a person is justified by works and not and not by faith alone. Um and like, and it's just it's it's interesting that uh so when the but but when the reformers see that text, they are they immediately draw it in contrast to some of the things that to some of the things that Paul says and the and the way that the way that it's dealt with is well, faith there basically Paul's when Paul says faith, he means something. When James says faith, he means he means something else. Uh and I'm and to which to which I'm like, that's fine. Um, but James still says that a person is justified by works. Uh like which is like specifically what you never want to say. If you're if you're afraid, like if your primary fear is a works-based salvation. Right. And so like, and and and um, and so like, and and this is not obviously, I'm not saying that you that that that that that you know that you're that you're and no cr and no Christian, I mean, unless they're I mean, no Christian is saying that you that you work yourself, that you work yourself into that you work yourself into salvation. Um, but one of the things that I think uh uh a lot of I think some processes end up end up being afraid of, even though Calvin specifically says, Don't don't be afraid of this and I'm not afraid of this. But the necessity, but like the necessity of of works and obedience. Like it's what we're called to do. We're called to obey Jesus.

SPEAKER_06: 50:24

Like that's what that's what like and like As opposed to what it is now, where it's we're just called to believe. Yeah, which and I would argue true belief would be obedience. Right, right, right. And and and and yes, yes, yes, yes. So uh the the the solas, um, and particularly the sola fide, the the faith alone one that you're talking about right now, um, you would say is more of like an oversimplification, um kind of a reactionary slogan. Uh it's not really answering. It is a distinct theological position. Yeah, it's answering a real problem, the late medieval abuses. Yeah. Um, but in so doing, they they over-correct to say faith alone. When you're like, well, that's actually not scripture. Like, nowhere in scripture says faith alone. Yeah. Because as you just mentioned, James says, you know, a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Um is odd.

SPEAKER_02: 51:24

Well, and this it is, it is, it is odd. And so like, but like, so like it even like the Malcolm, I just it makes me feel bad.

SPEAKER_06: 51:34

I know. I I don't want to feel bad.

SPEAKER_01: 51:37

So what what what what kind of feeling bad do you do you do you feel?

SPEAKER_06: 51:42

Well, because if it's by works, well, my works suck. It's not, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 51:45

Well, and well, and it's not that. Like that's like that, like, like, like that's the other thing. Like, it's also the context in which we think about because okay, because this is the other thing. Okay, here we go. It's also because justification I don't okay, it's also because of the particular ways in which the reformers frame justification as a as a juridical and and forensic thing. Yeah, and like, and the thing about verdicts is that they are given and then it's done. And so when I look at the fact that my works change, that is weird for me if justification is a juridical thing and it's like it's a one, it's a kind of one and done thing. And so, but this is also Which we're we're not against.

SPEAKER_06: 52:36

We're saying that that's part of justification.

SPEAKER_01: 52:38

Yeah, it's part of it. Um, but this is also one of the things that I think distinguishes us from our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters, which is that like Protestants get mad because they think that those folks are blurry on justification and sanctification, when Protestants have made this very sharp distinction between the two. Yeah. Although using the language, as Calvin does, of the double gift, where like they're they're or to use Chalcedonian logic, like they're distinct but not separate. Like they're like they're they want like we want to use this language and stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 53:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 53:13

But the but in actual practice and in and in actual language, like they're really distinct. In a way that it's not the sense that like one leads to the other, because you want to avoid that language. But but but but there is a sense in which they are really different. And for an and but for but for a number of our but for a number of our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters, they're like they're both really speaking to the same reality. When they're talking about justification, they're also talking about the means by which God actually makes us just. Um in in a number of our circles, as Protestant circles, it's about it's about just a kind of a declaration.

SPEAKER_06: 54:00

Yeah. Um and like and is that the distinction between imputation and infusion?

SPEAKER_01: 54:08

To a certain extent, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and but but the other thing is that like I think I really do think that the deeper impetus behind the press for imputation is specifically the press for assurance. Yeah. Because it just feels too tenuous for me to say that this is a lifelong thing. I need to I need to be able to have this point where I can be assured because of that point, and then I can move on.

SPEAKER_06: 54:40

Oh, oh, Malcolm. And so this this is bringing up a new question.

SPEAKER_01: 54:44

Well, this well, this is asked because like I also once saved, always like I could do that because I don't have an evangel, because I don't have an evangelical testimony in the sense of like there was this moment where everything changed for me. Like my my entire life is a life. My entire life, like my testimony is a life of a walk with the Lord where I've just ex I've just experienced his grace throughout my entire like throughout my entire life. Yeah, like I can't, I I have never honestly, I've never seriously questioned whether or not Christ died and got up. Like I it's just never been a thing for me. Yeah. But but my life is still my life with the Lord is still continuous struggle because I desperately want to be like Christ and I need to live a life of repentance in order for that to continue to happen. Like that's and like, and and my thing is like there's nothing wrong with that. Like that's what that's just that's just kind of what the Christian life is. Yeah. Um and so like but you know, part of even the comfort to Luther of this of this particular articulation of the faith was this is especially like as a monk where he where he confess where he you know just really strenuously looked at himself and his and his failure to you know and and and his failure to live up to to live to live up to live up to God's standard. And that and and that was met by a number of these particular understandings. I just I I also think that there are other ways to deal with that anxiety.

SPEAKER_06: 56:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 56:25

Um well let's let's flip it on its head.

SPEAKER_06: 56:29

Let's flip it on its head. Yeah if disciplines don't save, yeah, what are they doing? Yeah. Um, you know, if if they don't save, if we're not saying that disciplines, the you know, this the spiritual discipline of of meditation, of confession, the we can give you a list of these disciplines. Um if they're not saving us, what are they doing? What's the what's the hope? Well, my thing is like uh actually people And I don't think Mark Comer was actually John Mark Comer was actually arguing that they save you. So I think uh Horton needs to retract his article.

SPEAKER_01: 56:59

Yes. But that's me. No, but I but I also because I have a broad understanding of what salvation means, yeah, I'm actually perfectly happy to say that these are means of these are means that the Holy Spirit uses for our salvation. Because like part of that salvation is a purifying of my will. And the means by which that happens are through some of these disciplines. Like we're people of we're people of habits, and and and and much of our sin is habitual, and so it needs to be dealt with through Holy Spirit-infused habits.

SPEAKER_06: 57:36

Like like that, like I it's let's give an example. So one habit. Yeah. Um as we get into the season of Lent. Yeah. Um, and Lent seems to be marked by three things of prayer, fast prayer, fasting, and all giving. Yeah, right. And maybe many people kind of just think of it as fasting. Um, but like thinking about this and this this framework, yeah. Can it be used towards legalism? Sure. I'm sure someone would go through the season of Lent, I'm sure many have, and at the end felt really good about themselves and felt, now I'm good, now I'm just gonna indulge in whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 58:12

If the purpose of it, if the purpose of it is just to follow a particular rule, it's this this is a danger when we think about scripture reading, when we think about prayer, we think about solidarity with the poor, we think about fasting. If we just do those things just because they're rules, that's that's essentially what legalism would be. But if we if we do those things because this is the way that God has revealed this is this is the path that God has revealed for us to actually be able to partake in the divine life. Yeah, when that's the framing of it, well, yeah, like that's the stuff that I'm gonna want to do.

SPEAKER_02: 58:44

And I'm gonna wanna do it often because this is the thing that matters.

SPEAKER_03: 58:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 58:52

In my relationship with my wife, if there are things that if there are things that she wants me to do for us to be able to build our relationship, then like, yeah, like they sure they could be rules, but like, but the purpose of it is not just because I want to be a rule follower. The purpose of it is because I want to be in a deeper relationship with this person.

SPEAKER_06: 59:10

You you could say, sorry, honey, I don't wanna I don't wanna be illegalistic. And so I'm just gonna hang out with this woman at two two two a.m. at a hotel. They're like, well, that's not necessarily what we're going for here. In fact, your wife's gonna go like, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01: 59:26

No, you're not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_06: 59:30

Like, absolutely, I mean this is where it's like, yeah, rules won't save you, but there's like wisdom in some of these things.

SPEAKER_01: 59:35

Yeah. Um it's why, like, it's it's like when I get nervous when we have conversations about the law and the gospel, and people start to tend toward talking about the law as a bad thing.

SPEAKER_03: 59:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 59:47

And I'm like, Paul never does that. Paul says sin uses it, but Paul never refers to the law as a bad thing.

SPEAKER_06: 59:53

And I think because of the Reformation, I think many Protestants start with the law as the bad thing. Yeah. And as you said, the Bible never never sees it that way. Yeah. And so, like, as you've said before and another podcast on other occasions, that abuse does not negate negate use. And I think that's really important for us to think about the law in this way. One like, no, the law is actually good and beautiful and holy. Um, and Paul has that line of argument in Romans all the time. And so, like, to see it that way, um, one practice the church has adopted um is Lent. It is and and uh and it's and it begins, it gets kicked off with Ash Wednesday. Yep. Now it's not this is not uh scriptural, um, but this is something that I think is a a helpful thing. We as a church are gonna participate in our very first one, um, this upcoming Ash Wednesday. Um if it it is not requi it doesn't I'm I'm like, it's wild. I I I've had never participated in it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:00:51

Because it was seen as this like, this is Catholic, this is which is not just Catholic, by the way.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:57

It's a Western, I mean it is a Western Christian practice, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:01:01

But it it was seen as like this like works-based thing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:04

So fascinating.

SPEAKER_06: 1:01:05

Which is just wild. That like, and so the the idea of Ash Wednesday, they they they they they uh you know take the ash and they yeah, put it on your forehead and and say, remember that you are dust and dust you will return. It's it's this reminder of our mortality.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_06: 1:01:21

What's legalistic about that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:24

Yeah, yeah, and our mortality as a consequence of sin. Like that's what it like it's like it should inaugurate like humility. Exactly. Because it inaugurates a sp a an explicit period of the church calendar that is focused tightly on repentance. Yeah, the core Christian activity.

SPEAKER_06: 1:01:43

So 40 days, Lent is 40 days of of of repentance leading up to Easter. Yeah, and it's it's those three pillars that we talked about of of almsgiving, of fasting, and of prayer. Yeah. All seemingly good things. All yes, you would think that Christians would agree on. But it was like this thing that was like so foreign. Like I I personally had never participated in it. It was like, what are all these people doing with these ashes? Like, look, you got a little smudge on your forehead there.

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:12

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:02:13

Um, and so it's it's just it's wild how we kind of lambast other other believers for this. Again, it's not like uh, you know, Jesus never mandated this, and doesn't mean you don't do anything that are like we can't do things that Jesus didn't mandate. Like, yeah, I think it's a good thing that we're looking forward to to doing it. And I think yes, like all uses we can abuse, but it doesn't mean it's it's bad. Um what what what would you say your best argument for why a Christian ought to participate in um Ash Wednesday?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:47

Oh yeah, I mean you you you you can. I'm actually I'm actually relatively uh I'm actually relatively ambivalent about it, but uh, but I you know, it is the fact is we already have very few reminders of our own mortality in general. And so to do that in the church, where those things are set in proper context, especially where, especially when it's used to inaugurate a period of really focused um repentance and discipline.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:19

Uh, like that's helpful. It's very, it's very, very helpful because this is also the context, because the church is also also supposed to be the context in which we can hold one another accountable, but also remind people of the joy that's set of the joy that's set before us. Yeah. Um, because all this leads up to Easter, which is, you know, like that's the whole reason we do any of this stuff. But like, but it it it's it's also a kind of practice of us, because the other the other thing that Jesus has also told us that is that uh, you know, unless you if if you want to be my disciple, take up your cross and come follow me.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:01

And like that, like all like all these, it's it's it's part of us being reminded that that lies at the core of of who we are, of who we are as believers. We're folks who with Christ walk walk the way of the cross because we know that the way to the way to true glory, which God has, which God created us to share with him, yeah, the way to get there is by the way of the cross.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:27

Um and so for us to be able to walk that path together, uh, which we kind of r really emphasize uh dur during the season of Lent, like it's a it's a profound opportunity.

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:38

Yeah. And I think of these, um, you know, the the fasting element that many can struggle with and they're like, well, you know, there's so many things to reasons to not fast or things that might be in the way. But fasting, uh you know, I was reading this article uh one of our elders, Kirsten, had shared with us. Um is is historic practice of withdrawing something good from our lives so that we can enjoy something even better. Greater.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_06: 1:05:04

The the full presence of Christ. And that to me makes the most sense as understanding fasting, because so many times you can think of the things you're like, all right, I'm gonna fast from sugar or from coffee or alcohol or whatnot, and you're like and you think of like this big like sacrifice. Um you're like, all right, I'll do this for Lent, and uh fine, you know, like this like really bad thing. And and it's gonna be hard. Um Malcolm has committed, uh, I don't know if we want to do it on air, he's committing to to to sacrifice beef from his his diet.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:35

And it is, I love beef so much. So much.

SPEAKER_06: 1:05:44

And the idea behind this is not just to like mm have you struggle, yeah, but to realize certain things in our lives distract us from the most important things. Yeah. And I think that to me is so relatable. Anyone who is living in twenty. 2026 can go, yeah, there's a hundred distractions in my life that are distract me from the most important things. Whether it's distraction from my family, distraction from my work, distraction from the most important stuff. And so I think that to me is most relatable. It would be helpful for me to fast from these things. And so I think that is something that that makes the most sense when we think about as we enter the season of Lent and kickstarting it with um this, you know, this uh with Cash Wednesday that the the disciplines don't say, but love can train the body in these ways. And I think that's the kind of way uh a helpful way of framing this season as we go into it. And so if you're uh Michael Horton, um I think you should listen to this podcast and come defend yourself.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:48

Deeply respect your work, Dr. Horton, just so we're clear.

SPEAKER_06: 1:06:51

I got a few radio ads to send you. You'll probably love. Stop trying so hard. Or as oh my gosh, as my kids say, That's great. I'll always say not my kids. As one particular kid, Mateo, Mateo says, Dad, you do too much.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:09

Probably true. You probably do do too much.

SPEAKER_06: 1:07:11

I it it infuriates me when he says that. He says it with his accent, like, ah, who are you? You do too much. All right, Malcolm.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:22

Final word of encouragement. Don't do too much, brothers and sisters, brothers and sisters. I like I really want us. We are a Christian is a spiritual athlete. Like you are, like that's what you're like. You can, here's the thing you can be lazy and not fight the passions and not and just kind of let that stuff happen. And you will not experience the joy, the power, and the peace that Christ has prepared for you. If you fight, you will actually be able to experience those things. Um and and and what what and what the scriptures, I mean, I think just what the scriptures tell us is that like it's a struggle, but it's a struggle that ultimately ends in in joy. And it ultimately ends in us being made into little Christs. And if you re and if you really this is this is what my whole this is the book I'm about to write, is what is what is what it's all about. When you really see what it is that Christ has prepared for you, you will be willing to give up whatever it takes to get there.

SPEAKER_06: 1:08:32

That's pretty good. That's pretty good. I can't wait for that book.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:35

It's coming.

SPEAKER_06: 1:08:36

Hey y'all, we are so grateful that you continue to listen. Um, if you have questions, uh thoughts, concerns, uh shoot your questions, hello at theologypeas.com. Uh, you can find us on Instagram, um, sometimes on Twitter. Um sometimes. Sometimes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:54

Not me anymore.

SPEAKER_06: 1:08:55

Oh, oh, this is important, Malcolm. Yeah. Uh, we're putting a poll out there for you listeners. We were thinking in 2026, how do we uh how do we step it up?

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:03

Uh oh.

SPEAKER_06: 1:09:05

Would y'all care if we added video to the podcast element? Dun dun dun. I don't know. I I it's gonna take some work. So if y'all are like, nah, I'm more of a listen while working out or while in the car, then don't worry about it. That's fine. But if you're like, no, that'd be sweet. Um, we'll we'll we'll consider it. We'll think about it. So let us know. Um, but if you find any of this uh work helpful, give it a rating to review, share with a friend, um, and we'll see you guys in two weeks. See y'all. Bye y'all.