SPEAKER_02: 0:24

Universe. Hey guys. Right as we begin, got hit with some something. Something hit him. Um welcome to Theology Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we're your host Slim and Malcolm. And today we're gonna talk magic, myths, and imagination as tools of resistance with one Dr. Serena Higgins. But before we go there, Malcolm, I'm so curious. What has struck you uh in the last five seconds that we as we began, you started cracking up the light from the Lord? What's going on over here?

SPEAKER_04: 1:04

No.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04

I recorded and started laughing.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07

So uh a very thoughtful uh New Testament scholar, Nij Gupta, um he he wrote this substack recently about um black voices that have that have inspired him.

unknown: 1:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20

Uh and I turned and I'm I'm one of those I'm one of those voices in one of the uh one of the textbooks in a Bible and race class that he's doing. Uh but I was looking at somebody, and so like he names all these people and all these valuable books.

SPEAKER_09: 1:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:33

Um and then somebody, but somebody left a left a comment uh where they said, uh, we're also called to listen to the voices of Thomas Sowell, Carol Swain, Starr Parker, William Winston, uh Vodie Bacum, Virgil Walker. Basically, you just name a bunch of conservative black people. Uh and and and Dr. Coopa just responded, thanks for sharing.

SPEAKER_05: 2:02

That's my response. Thanks for sharing.

SPEAKER_02: 2:05

Yeah. Hey, we need all these voices. Yeah. Thomas Sowell. Give me, give me a big thing. I don't want to know. Give me the best.

SPEAKER_04: 2:13

We don't need to do this.

SPEAKER_02: 2:14

He's a good dude, right?

SPEAKER_04: 2:15

We don't need to. We're fine.

SPEAKER_02: 2:16

Uh, what are we what are we talking about today? Hey, do you know what today is, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_04: 2:20

What is today?

SPEAKER_02: 2:20

We know what today is. Uh it's Ash Wednesday. We began this morning early. We did. You and I began early. Today is Ash Wednesday. Uh, and uh our church here in Waco um has celebrated its first ever Ash Wednesday service. Um I kind of want to hear your thoughts. We actually haven't uh debriefed from it.

SPEAKER_04: 2:40

What'd you think? It was great. I mean, I was surprised that as many folks showed up as they did. I mean, I told you before, I was like, I feel like a lot of people are gonna show up, but it like 10 minutes before I was like, I don't know. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02: 2:52

But no one's showing up before seven. Yeah, but but I I had the same feel I'm like, okay, here we go.

SPEAKER_04: 2:59

Just a couple of us, and we'll uh nice little uh No, but it was we we had a good had a good crowd. Yeah, it's packed up. Um good simple service. It was exactly basically more or less exactly 30 minutes. Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 3:11

And we went through the book of common prayer, um, kind of word for word. Um you had a short sermon. Did you promise you delivered? I did. I promise I'll deliver it. Um I I I got to uh uh make our first ever ashes for that, which is uh I did not realize how much of a process this was, but also it it reminded me of have you have you baked any of the communion bread before? No. Okay, so baking the communion bread, I used I used to be a part of that team. Um, and there's something really beautiful about like kind of like kneading the bread and like taking the time. You're like, it's just very worshipful, calm uh in doing it. And you're like, this is really sweet that this is like gonna have the opportunity to be a part of people that so many people's you know worship. And so just uh we intentionally, I think you were the one who said last year said, Hey, if we want to do a Nash Wednesday service, which we said we did, we have to keep the palms.

SPEAKER_05: 4:09

Keep the palms so we can burn the palms, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:10

And so we kept the palm branches in the closet for a long time, which future self, don't keep them in like a closet you're gonna walk into a lot because it starts to the the branches start to smell a little bit. Things you learn, things you learn. Um, but we've kept they dry out, and so then we I I burnt them. Uh also someone else said, Hey, these palm branches are surprisingly you you they don't actually burn that well, so you really need to put uh uh lighter fluid on them. It's like, okay, that seems weird because they're dry. Yeah, and so I put them in, I got you know a little fire pit and I put them in there and then I doused it in in lighter fluid, and then I threw the match and it was like maybe too much light. But it burned so well that one of the leaves was on fire flying in the air and it landed directly on the lighter fluid bottle on the ground. And I was like, Oh gosh, I was like, oh gosh, that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_05: 5:03

Yeah, that could have been yikes.

SPEAKER_02: 5:08

Um, but besides that, having to burning the leaves down into ash and then going like, okay, I think I'm ready, and then like reading, it's like, no, you need to like get a mortar and pestle and like refine them because it's you don't want like chunky branches on people's head. I was like, okay, okay. So I'm just like, I'm learning the fly of like how to make it the right way. And then it's like, don't put too much oil. I think I put too much oil.

SPEAKER_04: 5:31

They're they're a little okay, they're a little juicy.

SPEAKER_02: 5:35

Anyways, that's all right. But the service itself, yeah, not just the people came out. I was surprised, and because I didn't think about it until it was about to happen, like how intimate it would be to put an ash on someone's forehead.

SPEAKER_04: 5:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 5:54

I like I was just like, it's like, yeah, cool. Ash Wednesday, that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_04: 5:57

This is like No, that was beautiful.

SPEAKER_02: 5:59

Um on like a minor level, I was like, ooh, this makes me a little uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03: 6:04

Oh no, it was great.

SPEAKER_04: 6:05

I mean, like, although although the joke was because there were people were looking, people in my line, so the two of us have lined up and and like half the church lined up in front of us live and half half lined up in front of me. Um, and so with people in my line, there were some folks who who were like, there's a lot of like there's a lot of motion. There's doing a lot of motion over there. Because like I was very, I was like, I was super gentle with mine. It was just like one one one stroke up and then one stroke to the side, but like you were making sure that people had artistic.

SPEAKER_05: 6:38

It was a little more heavy-handed than I was. That's odd.

SPEAKER_02: 6:40

I wanna I want that ass to last. I want to make sure it lasts. But but so like at first, because like I just one thing, I like I hate when someone touched my face. Like, even Chris did, I'm like, okay, they'll touch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like I didn't think about it till now I'm doing this to people.

SPEAKER_04: 6:52

So I was looking folks in the eye and be like, you gonna die.

SPEAKER_02: 6:57

But it was also like really sweet, yeah. Because yes, like it's one thing to hand people communion, um, but to have that and be like, hey, like this is as serious as it is, like you are dust into dust, you will return. Um, like reminding people of our mortality, which was like so it was like it was really beautiful. It's beautiful. It was also I like it almost like uh brought me to tears when the kids came forward, yeah. And I was like, oh, this is a little sobering to tell a child you are dust to dust, you will return. I was like, I hate it, but also it's the reality. Yeah, so man. But it was I thought it was a really sweet service in the sense of kind of reorienting what's the most important um thing in life and kind of reminding us of how short our lives are. So yeah, I loved it. I'm so glad we're doing it. I saw this talk to a lot of people afterwards, they were all excited. They're like, why do we not do any of this growing up in Baptist churches? Like, I don't know, me neither, but I'm so glad we're doing it. Malcolm is thinking uh the uh the uh high church um transformation is is about complete. Excellent. Malcolm, I think it's time for us to have a little oh boy. Um you had a terrible tweet um that you shared with me earlier today. What was your terrible tweet?

SPEAKER_04: 8:18

Did I? What did I share with you earlier?

SPEAKER_02: 8:20

Something about visiting preachers.

SPEAKER_04: 8:23

Oh I guess part of this may just be a complex for me. I don't so like you know, there are some kind of well-known preachers that like when they're out of town or whatever, or like at a conference, they'll like put out on social media, hey, like I'm in town. If you're a pastor of a church with like 300 or 200 or fewer people, like I'd be happy to preach for you this. I'd be happy to preach for you this Sunday. You don't have to pay me or anything. I just I'll just I'll I'll preach. Yeah, to like give you a break or whatever. Um I just sounds like an act of service. What's the problem? I know.

SPEAKER_02: 9:02

I just it just I I I said, is it is it like Apollos showing up to the city and be like, all right, minions, let me show you how it's done.

SPEAKER_04: 9:12

I mean, I mean I guess part of it is just it it continues to feed so it continues to feed this cultural assumption. And granted, this is I think a Protestant thing, that like that the sermon is is the most important thing in the um in the uh kind of in the church service, but also like and I'm gonna sound insensitive, so please so please um you know rebuke me for this, Lim.

SPEAKER_02: 9:40

We are nothing but insensitive.

SPEAKER_04: 9:42

Um I think pastors get worn out preaching every week because they're doing too much. Like, as in like like if you can't if you can't preach a 45 minute sermon every week, then like then don't do it. Like you don't have to. I mean, like but but I think people feel this pressure, and I think especially of like of pastors of small congregations and stuff like that, like you feel this pressure that like I've gotta get up and like preach a 45 minute sermon every week. Like if that's not your like if it's the kind of thing where doing that wears like wears you out and stuff and you can't replenish, like you can find ways to re-like there there is nothing in there's nothing in the scriptures or even in church tradition that tells you that you have like that that's something you have to do. Now you have to care for your you gotta care for your folks. You do have to tea like you do have to teach you like you do have to teach them and in and envelop them in the life of the church. But like but when folks are getting burnt out because like folks some people get burnt out for a number of reasons. Some people get burnt out because of things that they because of expectations that they place on them, that they place on themselves. Um or broader cultural by kind of broader cultural assumptions. Um and like so I know that I'm profoundly blessed and mosaic to be able to preach every other Sunday, and that's like that's a really life-giving cadence, cadence for me, and I'm thankful for the co-pastor model that allows us to do that. But like um Yeah, so I you know, I I don't want to sound incentive because like it it is, I know it's perceived as kind of an act of service to these pastors to give them a break from you know, that like that kind of thing. But I'm like, but what are the circumstances that place you in a position where you are like drowning and like all the like all this kind of stuff? Yeah, um can you think of a yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 11:45

I think on one hand I disagree, and one hand I agree. So on on one hand, I disagree is um like you just said, that we have a this co-pastor model, and yeah, I don't know. I think I would, if I was doing it every week, be like, oh please, someone take a Sunday. Yeah. Um I think if I'm doing it, you know, seven weeks in a row, I'm like, ooh, I could use a a breather.

SPEAKER_08: 12:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 12:09

Um but on the other hand, I do agree with you because I I have noticed myself early on in my uh preaching pastor if there are 40 hours a week, which not you know, most pastors don't actually do that, they'll do fifty or whatnot. Um but if it's 40 hours a week, I would spend you know three-fourths of my time on sermon prep. And so that makes sense, then you're exhausted. You spend all this time on on these 30 to whatever, 45 minutes if someone is doing that long, and then you do it around all around again the next week. Um and I think over time I've you know, once you get more comfortable, but two, I'm just realizing like that isn't the best use of the time. Like some of the best stuff that goes in the sermon is stuff that's not in like read reading commentaries and writing and and all of that. And so I think that's where I think there's growth in that. And I think that's something that the church could these pastors could use as a a reminder, like kind of what you're saying here, of what where are we use where we use best use in our time and what's the most important thing? Is it the sermon? Um I think the sermon's important. I think it's important. But yeah, I think there is a outside of Protestant circles, uh, the sermon isn't everything.

SPEAKER_04: 13:16

Well, and it even goes into the way that we think about our sermons. This was when I decided to preach shorter sermons, part of what I had to deal with then was and I know like we've done, you know, we've had conversations about kind of cutting room floor stuff. And for me, when I did 30 30 minute sermons or uh 30 or even 35 minute sermons, I included everything that I wanted to say in that in that space. I just I like I pack it, I pack it really tight. But like but as I think about shorter ones, it was also me coming to terms of like I don't have to say everything that there is to be said about this text. I don't have to answer every question, even though that's like that's what I was used to doing. It's just I could do it kind of really tightly.

SPEAKER_09: 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 14:00

Um and and part of that is just like I guess it's a broader thing, like be because because what I'm doing is I'm not just offering you know, I'm not just kind of offering to the congregation a product. I'm this is this is part of a life, like it's part of a life that we're living together. And so my the most important part of my sermon prep is actually my conversations with folks just over the course of the weeks as I'm as I'm prepping, because I find that the text that I'm meditating on, there there are ways in which that text just comes up in conversation as I'm as I'm caring, you know, as I'm as I'm caring for folks and as folks are asking questions and all and all that kind of stuff. Like that's the most fruitful part of the prep process for me, which is just part of doing the life of a pastor.

SPEAKER_09: 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 14:48

Um, so so yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:50

Yeah. Um, well, here's another terrible tweet in a completely different direction. Right. Uh, this is from one Brian Allen. Um at Trump's ICE detention camp in Dilly, Texas, which is outside of San Antonio, agents are reportedly raiding family dormitories to confiscate children's letters after they exposed abuse and neglect. Kids wrote about fear, depression, and being denied school instead of fixing the conditions the always are trying to silence them. Um rating children's letters inside a detention camp. Um and they have a a picture of a um a notebook piece of paper with since I got to this.

SPEAKER_00: 15:30

All you will feel is sadness and mostly depression. I haven't get been getting any school time either, or the other kids in here.

SPEAKER_02: 15:38

We won't listen to it all. Uh it it is heart-wrenching. Um and I'm at I'm wondering, uh is this a detention they they call them detention centers. Are these internment camps? In school, I remember reading about Japanese internment camps and going, how could the United States do this? Like, how could that like we do this? Also, I think my bubble has been burst on how could we? After reading more of United States history. Um But also then now experiencing this, right? This is uh what is that, three hours from us?

SPEAKER_08: 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:21

What do you think do you think we are the these are internment camps? Do you think this is the equal? I don't know if what the official definition between an internment versus uh detention camp is.

SPEAKER_04: 16:30

There's no um Yeah, I mean most of us don't even don't even know what goes on in those camps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:40

And the fact that they're now taking kids' letters so that we won't know what's going on in those camps.

SPEAKER_04: 16:48

What we do know is that it's dehumanizing. Um we know that about our prison system broadly, but especially these. I mean, we're being and the way that immigration policy is being mobilized, I mean we're we're we're being encouraged to not see migrants as human beings. Um Yeah, it's it's it's it's disturbing.

SPEAKER_02: 17:14

Yeah. I don't mean I I I you read this stuff and I don't know what will cut through for people. There's different things. I think some things cut through for people that um break rank. Um this here hopefully is one of those things that might cut through. Um I've I've stopped going what why doesn't everything break through. And it just says, okay, maybe the the the goal is to continue to just keep offering um different seeds. If you're uh preaching the gospel, you're planting the seed and you hope something lands and something grows up, and maybe this will be a seed to to see something is being something's really, really broken. Um so end on encouraging stuff. Um I think I actually I do think the thing that the Empire wants you to think is that there is no hope, that there is no recourse, that you just have to accept um that this is the way life is. And so um one thing that is hopeful and encouraging, um uh myself and a few others are gonna get together and we're uh working on uh something from this Faith Works um group uh that is um helping uh kickstart immigration ministry uh endeavors across the nation. And our church got uh uh lucky enough to be uh awarded a grant to help uh start something here in Waco, and we're gonna meet uh actually tomorrow with a group of uh people to talk through that, and then we're gonna go to the border in a few weeks uh and help continue to to dream. I think dreaming, imagination seem to be important. And I think that's uh a good segue to our uh interview with Dr. Serena Higgins. All right, dear listeners, we have a uh a gift here. Uh we have one Dr. Serena Higgins uh with us. Let's give her a round of applause. Yeah. Live studio audience. Yes. Yes. Does that make you feel good?

SPEAKER_07: 19:27

That is one of the warmest receptions I've ever received.

SPEAKER_02: 19:31

Uh Dr. Serena Higgins is a consulting editor, author, English teacher, and award-winning scholar of British modern modernist literature. Her academic work focuses on the inklings, modernism, and magic. Um, and so to to kick us off, for those who don't may not know you um or your work, how would you describe your your vocation at the intersection of all of these things? Literature, theology, imagination, uh, all that.

SPEAKER_07: 19:56

Thanks so much for asking. I think it's still evolving. On the professional side, it's simply to help people achieve excellence in their writing and communication, to take this gift of language that God has given us and learn how to use that to the highest degree of skill possible for each client. But I think I'm starting to find my way into looking at public rhetoric and the ways that words are used publicly and how those can either build up human persons or tear them down. And that frequently, but not always, has an overlap with Christianity. I talked to a lots of a lot of pastors about how that works for them, but I think also as a writer, an English teacher, a podcaster, a YouTuber, I think the ways that I use words and the ways that I interact with other people about their public rhetoric can all either contribute to or detract from human flourishing.

SPEAKER_02: 20:51

That's good. That's good. And also um we failed to say in the uh intro, you know, how we know Serena. Uh we we we we're friends that go back since uh when did we first connect?

SPEAKER_07: 21:02

Um we connected at Redeemer Waco in 2016 when I started at Baylor. Okay. And then Malcolm and I graduated together side by side there 2021. Yeah. And Malcolm, I will never cease to regret that we didn't get a picture together in regalia. We spent for like hours. I didn't want to take the picture until we were official, until we were the doctors that had graduated, and then as soon as we graduate, we went our separate ways.

SPEAKER_04: 21:28

Oh man.

SPEAKER_07: 21:28

So that's a lack.

SPEAKER_04: 21:30

Misconnection.

SPEAKER_07: 21:34

I mean, what's great? We were dissertating at the same time and sometimes chatting about our projects, and I was got together for writing sessions.

SPEAKER_04: 21:39

Yeah. That's a good time.

SPEAKER_02: 21:41

You have you have so many interests, so many uh uh you're Jack of all trades have so many uh opportunities to talk about different things and uh kind of chameleon your way into a lot of different conversations. But one thing that stood out to me was uh your work on the inklings. Um I just wanted to ask a really simple question question like what. What the heck are the inklings? I want to say it so angrily aggressive. Aggressive. You can do better than that. That tend to take it.

SPEAKER_03: 22:12

A very aggressive interval. Skin disease that I need treatment about? What is it?

SPEAKER_07: 22:16

It's a skin disease, and the cure is you take one fairy tale and call me in the morning. I am a doctor after all. There you go. So the Inklings were this group of writers in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, more solidly the 30s and the 40s, in Oxford, England. And their center was C.S. Lewis, author of the Narneo Chronicles, Mere Christianity, and Screwtape Letters and more. And then his best friend there in the group most of the time was J.R.R. Tolkien, author of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. And then there were other men who came and went throughout that approximately 20-year period. And what I find so interesting about them is that they were trying to find ways to use popular genres like science fiction and fantasy as vehicles to communicate Christian truth, but to try to do that in a non-didactic, non-preachy way, that their beliefs were just sort of integrated into the stories and could therefore wheedle their way into readers' imaginations and help readers to see the world in a different way.

SPEAKER_02: 23:26

So was it like a Christian dead poets society? Is that how you describe it? Like just like people are excited about, like, hey, let's get together, let's let's stir one another up on, you know, different different poems and different things. Is that Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 23:42

Um, when Lewis wrote to invite Charles Williams to the group, he said the qualifications as they have evolved are a tendency to write and Christianity. And they would usually read drafts of works in progress to each other and then critique them and give suggestions how to improve those works in progress. But really, those two qualifications were pretty loose because the tendency to write, well, they were not by any means all professional authors. The vast majority of them were faculty, were professors at Oxford or Cambridge or Leeds or other universities, but not all of them. There was a lawyer, there was a medical doctor, there was a career military man, uh, there was a publisher. But they all sort of had a habit of writing for fun in some genre or another, even if it wasn't their profession. But then even the Christian part was a little loosey-goosey because you had all sort of exhibitions representing you had Roman Catholic, you had Anglican, um, but then you had anthroposophists, which is Rudolf Steiner's philosophy, religion, and then you had at least one occult master who was also a like Christian teacher and lay theologian, both at the same time.

SPEAKER_02: 24:58

Interesting. Interesting.

SPEAKER_07: 25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 25:00

So what was it about the inklings about this uh Christian Dead Poet Society, as I like to think of them right now? Um, Captain My Captain. Um what uh what about them? Has this captured your imagination that you were like, hey, I want to write about them, I want to think about them?

SPEAKER_07: 25:16

Yeah, they they have a really beautiful vision of goodness having a a vitality and a reality to it. That they write about that in a way that really brings goodness, truth, and beauty to life in memorable scenes, in vivid imagery, and characters. So I think they do a good job of writing the good. It it's actually easier, I would say, as an author, to write wickedness, to write suffering, to write difficult things. It's hard to write about good characters without making them really flat and boring. It's hard to write about good time periods in which not a lot happens because usually when stuff happens, it's conflict, it's bad stuff. But they were mostly kind of neoplatonists, thinking that there's like a spiritual reality to everything, and then what's in this world is either a lesser shadow of those things or in in a in a more vivid way, is sort of corresponding to spiritual reality. So when they wrote about anything, whether it's a little hobbit going on an adventure to get a treasure from a dragon or a little girl going through a wardrobe and finding this enchanted world, they were writing, they believed that they were writing about eternal spiritual realities, but giving those flesh, as it were, in the bodies of the characters and in the events that happened.

SPEAKER_02: 26:41

Yeah. That's good. That's good. And so Lewis Tolkien, um, they're kind of the stars of it.

SPEAKER_07: 26:49

They're probably the most famous ones. Yeah. Owen Barfield is really important. He was probably the most uh sharpest-minded philosopher of the group. So he wrote some really challenging philosophical works, but also some fiction. And then Charles Williams is the one that I study the most, and he wrote Supernatural Thrillers. These novels that are sort of like what Frank Pretti or Dan Brown would be if they were good writers.

SPEAKER_04: 27:15

Yes! Look, Frank's Frank Peretti, Frank Paretti takes me back. That's those are those are some of the things that I've got to do. This president darkness, piercing the darkness.

SPEAKER_07: 27:34

Did you read the series? I don't even remember what they're called.

SPEAKER_04: 27:40

I feel like yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. This was this was at the same time when I was reading uh left the high too. So I was reading I read that whole fifty of the kids' books. There were like 50 of them. Wait, in a series, like 50 of the five books. Oh yeah, like yeah, I read at least at least 30 of them. I'm trying to I'm trying to remember if I've made it all the way to the glorious appearing. Um, but it's probably all the same, right?

SPEAKER_06: 28:07

They're probably formulae. Basically, but it's awesome. It's it's it's good versus evil. It's like that's what that's what they're just it's it's epic. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_02: 28:15

Tim Lahaye is like an inkling, right? I'd get no. I would not.

SPEAKER_07: 28:21

Probably two differences. I haven't read much Lahaye, so I'm not 100% sure, but I think they're probably more preachy.

SPEAKER_01: 28:28

Oh, bah.

SPEAKER_07: 28:30

I mean, Lewis can get preachy. Lewis can get a little preachy sometimes. Yeah. And then I don't think Tim Lahaye um was quite as deeply steeped in the literary tradition. I'm not sure he could, you know, translate Greek and Latin and old English, and I'm not sure he, you know, knew all of the literary techniques that these guys use.

SPEAKER_02: 28:49

Yeah, yeah. Speaking of Lewis, uh I've I loved his his his Chronicles of Narnia.

SPEAKER_04: 28:56

I read Narnia to Jasmine.

SPEAKER_02: 28:59

The sci-fi trilogy? Wait. Tell me. Tell me how to get it.

SPEAKER_04: 29:03

Oh, I mean to I I want to get the sci-fi trying to try to try to try.

SPEAKER_02: 29:06

I feel like I'm like that show. I I I feel like I should love it, but I don't.

SPEAKER_07: 29:11

Have you read all three yet, Slim? Or are you one of those?

SPEAKER_02: 29:13

I read one and a half, and I'm just like, I'm so lost.

unknown: 29:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 29:18

Maybe that was it. I was just like, what's happening?

SPEAKER_07: 29:21

And you haven't read them yet, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_04: 29:23

No, I haven't yet. I want I I at some point I'm gonna have the time to to like to to to do that because I do I do want to.

SPEAKER_02: 29:30

Um what's what's the first one in the trilogy in the sci-fi trilogy? The hideous planet.

SPEAKER_04: 29:34

Out of the cycle planet.

SPEAKER_07: 29:35

And then the second is Paralandra, and the third is that hideous strength. Well, there's a few ways into it.

SPEAKER_04: 29:40

I really want to read because I really want to read that hideous strength, but I have to, I have to read I have to read out of the cycle of planet and and uh in Paralegra the first.

SPEAKER_07: 29:52

But you get a lot more out of it if you've read the first two because the characters have history, but the characters change a bit in the last one. So you could just read that hideous strength on its own. You wouldn't have quite as rich an experience, probably. Okay, just like you could watch Wake Up Dead Man without watching the first two knives out.

SPEAKER_02: 30:09

Serena is is uh our listener who uh who wrote insane how much she enjoyed Wake Up Dead Man.

SPEAKER_04: 30:14

Yeah, yeah, because that movie was great.

SPEAKER_07: 30:15

You did say spoilers, Malcolm, but I had actually paused right before you said that. So I paused and I texted you guys and said, Are there gonna be spoilers? And you said yes. And then when I went back and, you know, we listened to the episode, you said there'd be spoilers, Malcolm, right after I kicked off. Oh there's a few different ways into what I prefer to call the ransom cycle rather than the space trilogy, um, because they don't all take place in space. The last one takes place on Earth, and Lewis is very insistent that we shouldn't use the word space, we should use the word the heavens, because space implies something empty, dark, a cosmic void, whereas the heavens implies something filled with golden light and glory and animate beings and God's presence.

SPEAKER_08: 30:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_07: 30:56

And then I call it the ransom cycle because there are two other books that he considered making part of it, but they weren't published that way. So anyway, that's getting a bit scholarly technical. So there's a few different ways into it, and I'm trying to pick which one might appeal most to each of you. I mean, one way is just to read them as adventure stories, as journey narratives, right? That you have this dude who's caught up in this adventure that he never expected and meets aliens and meets other beings. So that's one way. But another way is that in each book, Lewis is essentially asking a spiritual question and then using fiction as a way to explore possible answers. So in Out of the Silent Planet, he's asking what is what is out there between the worlds, between the planets. And he gives a medieval answer because in the medieval mind, speaking very generally, the entire cosmos was peopled. Everything was guided by an intelligence or a spirit. So every planet, every star, every nebula either was a god or an angel or a being or was like driven by was like a car being driven by an angel or a spirit. And so they were all responsible for working out God's cosmic choreography. So that's one question that Lewis asks, what's out there? And he explores that in the first few chapters. Then he asks, what would an unfallen planet be like that has multiple sentient races? So he's able to explore there like questions of human racism, but displaced onto different species, and questions of It's like X-Men with the mutant race. Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_02: 32:45

Now I'll read it. Now I'll read it.

SPEAKER_07: 32:47

Slims in!

SPEAKER_02: 32:48

Love me to make a man. Go on.

SPEAKER_07: 32:51

Yeah, so our main character meets these three sentient races, and he keeps asking them who's on top, which one is the boss race, who serves the others, and they don't understand his question. And they keep being like, What are you asking? These guys are better at science, these guys are better at craft, these guys are better at poetry. What are you asking? And it's not until quite late in the book that he realizes this planet did not fall under the temptation of Lucifer, like our planet did, and the three races live in harmony. And our human character has such a hard time wrapping his head around.

SPEAKER_02: 33:24

Are you saying Lewis believes that certain races are better for certain things? Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_07: 33:48

That's fine.

SPEAKER_04: 33:49

What's the question? What's the question for the other two, for the other two books?

SPEAKER_07: 33:53

Haralandra is what would happen if we had another Garden of Eden situation, but a human was there not only to observe, but to interfere. So our hero character is trying to persuade the eve of that world not to fall. And he actually ends up physically fighting the Satan character in that novel. And I'll leave it there so I don't spoil it. And then the question, the last one, is is quite different. The last novel is very, very different, largely thanks to the influence of his friend Charles Williams. He tried to write a novel like that guy, and it sort of messed it up a bit. Um, but he has a few different questions there. He's asking, what's the role of the sexes? What is Christian marriage for? Uh, what is science for? And what the hell is going wrong with this modern world, y'all? Can we can we fix this? So he has this quasi-scientific magical organization that's trying to take over the world, and it's a dystopian novel. And a lot of it ends up being really prophetic. As I was rereading it right now for a chapter I'm writing on it, an article I'm writing on it, I started making a list of the political moves of this organization, and I was like, Trump, Trump, oh, this is ice. Oh, this is RFK, oh, this is going through this this novel. I should I should substack about that actually.

SPEAKER_02: 35:11

That would be uh I would love to read. I would love to read with all of that in your back back mind, like what would you say is helpful like from the inklings, um, like their understanding of um kind of approaching to storytelling? Um, how how could that help the church? What can the church learn from them?

SPEAKER_07: 35:31

Oh, what a good question. One thing I've been saying a lot recently is that they see that there's meaning in all things, that what happens to us has meaning, but you know, I'm gonna go a different direction now. I'm gonna say they were such a varied group. Like I said, they had Catholics and Protestants and mystics and occultists, they had uh Irish and English and Scottish, they had upper class, like they had peers of the realm, you know, a lord, and they had working class folks, like they had um somebody who couldn't even finish school because his family was so poor, and they had different politics. And yet they forged a strong fellowship where they were committed to friendship with each other, they were committed to community with each other, even though they had pretty fierce debates about all these topics, and sometimes they had fallings out, sometimes they had to write each other apology letters, sometimes they had to make it up. Every now and then someone would be lost because of the differences, but they worked very, very hard to forge fellowship among people with very different convictions.

SPEAKER_02: 36:40

People do that? People do that. It's not all been done. It's not a thing. So with their kind of um seemed like one of their like central points that kind of binds them together. You said, you know, it's uh Christian, but like writing. Um but are all of their writings kind of fiction or kind of leaned into like the imagination, the fantasy realm?

SPEAKER_07: 37:03

Um No, there's a lot of variety. One of them wrote histories of France. Okay. Uh one of them, medical doctor, mostly published on uh tropical diseases. But they were all interested in imaginative literature, and a lot of them dabbled in poetry for fun, even if they weren't that great at it, just because they wanted to try to see how creativity could help them with their expression, and they all enjoyed listening to the imaginative works of those who shared that type of thing. And C.S. Lewis and Owen Barfield actually had a decades-long bitter argument. They called it the Great War, which is saying something for men who actually fought in the real Great War, one of whom was moving for life.

SPEAKER_08: 37:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 37:55

Um, but they called this argument the Great War, and that was about the role of the imagination in relationship to truth. Because Lewis, before he was a Christian, believed that imagination was a liar and a cheat. And it made up stuff that wasn't true. Yeah. And so you had to watch out for it, right?

SPEAKER_10: 38:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_07: 38:16

And that it could seduce you into believing something that wasn't real and that wasn't true. Oh Owen Barfield, as an anthroposophist, a follower of Steiner, believed that imagination was the best conduit of truth. And that by training the imagination and by performing certain meditation exercises and uh performing certain visualizations, one could actually empirically study the spiritual realm the same way a scientist studies, say, bugs in a lab or cells in a petri dish. So they had this fierce argument over that. And eventually Lewis moved closer to Barfield, but never all the way. Um where Lewis decided the imagination is a vehicle for truth, but we have to use our reason to sort of sift through it and see which parts um do correspond to reality.

SPEAKER_02: 39:11

Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, I don't know if I would go as far as uh that as the just your imagination. You shouldn't.

SPEAKER_04: 39:16

Don't be an anthropoc is if you can't pronounce it, you shouldn't become an anthropo.

SPEAKER_07: 39:25

I don't know if it's a general rule.

SPEAKER_02: 39:26

Yeah, I don't know. But so Lewis came around to saying that it was uh an integral part to spirit formation? Yes. And why why is imagination? Like what would be that argument? Uh, because I I I enjoy you know reading works of fiction and the imagination here, but why would you say that is an integral part, or why would he argue that?

SPEAKER_07: 39:46

Yeah, the simple answer is simply that it's one of our qualities created by God. And so it's one of the qualities that can be used for good or ill, like most of them, like our power of speech, like our power of locomotion, right? Like the strengths of our body, those can be used for good or ill. But perhaps again influenced by Charles Williams, let me give Williams' view first on this. Williams said that when humankind fell, so metaphorically speaking, when we ate the apple, ate the fruit in the garden, he said that was a sin of the rational mind, that we decided we're not gonna listen to God, we're gonna listen to the serpent. We want to be like gods. So he said that that sin made our reason fall further than the body. So Lewis believed that the body kind of has more honest and holy instinct to it. And imagination as a faculty is an almost embodied one. We moderns don't think of it that way. But it's the eye of the mind. And so Lewis, perhaps following Williams, came to think that there's something about the imagination that if we allow it to be baptized and sanctified by the right influences, then perhaps it has a more native connection to spiritual truth than our tainted reason.

SPEAKER_02: 41:08

I kind of like that.

SPEAKER_04: 41:09

I like that. So cause there's a debate in the in the Greek Christian mystic tradition about the role of imagination in prayer. Like, do you when you when you pray, do you want to kind of empty your empty your mind of all images of God? Or is that or is that helpful? And one one of my favorite the guy who is now kind of my favorite, uh my favorite Christian theologian, uh uh Nicholas Kabasil. Nicholas Kabila Kabacilus, a 14th century Byzantine, uh Byzantine theologian. One of the things that he is that I think that scholars I think credit him with is as somebody who uh who actually leans into the benefit of the imagination, particularly in prayer. Um in in in consider. I mean, like, because like the images, like the images that he uses of particularly our union with Christ and the and how and and how intimate that union is. I mean, a lot of it is um a lot of it is is really imaginative, and there's a and there's an element of I think of the Byzantine mystic tradition that has it that leans toward I'm thinking of folks like um let me see. Let me let me think of the folks who would who would really press uh press against the use of any kind of images. I think uh I think Simeon the New Theologian fits in this category. But anyway, um but but but but that that under that kind of argument over the role of imagination in the spiritual life is one that is is is it it's it's played out in church history in other ways too.

SPEAKER_07: 42:50

So it's a subset of the whole two ways, the via affirmativa and the via negativa, right? Two modes of spirituality. So you have the apathatic way, you know, pseudo Dionysus, who's saying, like you said, do not use the imagination to picture God, because what you will do then is create an idol, and you'll be blaspheming them because you'll be worshiping or praying to something lesser than God. And that tradition doesn't necessarily but tends to lead to the celibacy and silence and poverty, like slipping yourself from created of created things, yeah. The soul naked before God, right in the dark.

SPEAKER_01: 43:28

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_07: 43:30

But the other tradition, the catafatic way, or the via affirmativa, is the one that says, wait a minute, God made all this stuff, and how do we know an artist except through his arts? How do we know a creator except through what he has created?

SPEAKER_10: 43:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 43:42

And therefore, every image or every created thing can be a rung on the ladder to knowing God. And the inklings debated those topics all the time. They discussed where do images fit, where does the human body fit? Where does sexuality fit? Where does hedonism fit in, the pleasures of the body? And most of them ended up on the affirmative side. I mean, they liked their beer and beef, and some of them like their babes. But they really varied there too. I mean, there was a Catholic priest, um, there was a Dominican monk in the group, a friar in the group, um, there was a celibate Anglican priest, which is not a requirement, but he was. Um, so there was there was quite a variety of the group there as well.

SPEAKER_02: 44:22

Yeah. I like that uh in the sense like that your body is responding to things sometimes before you do. And I think that happens a lot uh where you're going like, hey, I'm I'm uncomfortable with this situation right now. Something's in that's like telling you something. Um but to now extend that to your imagination. That that's interesting. Um now, how do you square that with um some Christians are have a little concern around things around um you know, stories of fantasy or magic. Um what what what is there is there is there reasons to be concerned around these these realms? Um you could think uh the occult, or you can think something as uh popular as Harry Potter. Um what what would you say?

SPEAKER_07: 45:06

Yes, there are reasons to be concerned about real occultism and real occult practice, and we'll probably get into that next, because that's what I studied for my dissertation there at Baylor. But what the Inklings are doing, by and large, with one exception, is not that. What they're doing is they're drawing on medieval traditions of God's work being seen in all realms. So they are, I will oversimplify it now, they are using magic as a symbol of God's cooperative power in the world. So when they have Aslan the Lion breathing on the statues that the white witch has turned people into stone, right? Deep magic. Yeah, his breath magically restores these people to life. Yeah, that's not magic like a black magician today is actually practicing, right? It's a symbol of the Holy Spirit, the breath, the ruach, the pneuma, the spirit working to bring life, to bring new life, to revive people's souls, right? And then the white witch is not even really a symbol of bad magic, actually. She's a character in a story because what do we have in fairy tales? What do we have in children's story? We have the bad witch and the good fairy, the fairy godmother, right? So they're using these genre trophs, they're using these literary traditions that are that are ageless, that are uh time proven, and they're using them to try to communicate Christian truth. So I would say to those parents and readers, don't worry about that at all. It's quite similar to what God is doing in some of the prophetic and poet uh poetic books in the Bible, where he's using kind of wild imagery and visions and so forth to communicate things that are beyond our rational understanding.

SPEAKER_02: 46:55

Yeah. I did a uh I did a a class at uh back in the day I used to lead our our youth uh to on this youth retreats to this camp called uh RYME. Reformed Youth Ministries. Um I did a class for um, you know, it has like 700 kids at this uh retreat. And I did a class uh the gospel according to Harry Potter. And uh probably one of the best attended classes and the most uh people engaged um and also the most uh parent emails afterwards.

SPEAKER_07: 47:28

Yes. I want to take that class then. That sounds cool.

SPEAKER_02: 47:32

And I swear, uh that book, those books, it I'm like, there's some similarities to where you're saying, like it's not straightforward like um here's the the you know, let me let me preach to you, but there is some you know beautiful, beautiful stories at the imagination of of you know the the hero sacrificing themselves to save and you know the the story of resurrection and things like this.

SPEAKER_07: 47:55

There's all this it's not like Harry becomes a Christian and goes to church, right? Oh then it would be an entirely different type of book.

SPEAKER_02: 48:02

Yes, but but they are doing magic in that way. So is that bad?

SPEAKER_07: 48:06

Is that uh no, no, again, it's a way of saying, is there more to the universe than meets the eye? Yeah. Are there things that we don't see that have an influence on us that we can interact with? And um, Malcolm, I know you've been preaching more and more about the spiritual battles and the actual forces of angels and demons. So I think a lot of these stories are just simply ways of asking, is there more happening that we can't see with our eyes and experience with our senses? And their answer is yes.

SPEAKER_02: 48:36

Yeah. Nice. Um I wanna push this forward because I want to uh talk more about your more recent stuff. Um, so this is uh this is you know, we're talking uh imagination.

SPEAKER_07: 48:47

We're talking about we do have to talk about the real occult too.

SPEAKER_02: 48:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 48:53

Well, that's a question.

SPEAKER_05: 48:53

You want to talk about the real occult stuff, or you want to talk about this very interesting, this also very interesting work that Terenta's been doing recently.

SPEAKER_07: 49:01

I kind of I mean, we gotta talk about both, right?

SPEAKER_02: 49:04

Here we go. Hey, you're the one who might have to get off at whatever time.

SPEAKER_07: 49:07

Um I'm keeping an eye on my email to see if my four o'clock appointment is gonna show up.

SPEAKER_02: 49:11

Okay, great. Um Well, how in the heck uh does all this transition to your fascination with politics uh and the church? Um is this evidence that your brain is seriously messed up? It's just aggressive.

SPEAKER_07: 49:31

That is not evidence that my brain is seriously messed up. You want different evidence that my brain is serious? There's other evidence with my psychiatrist's notes that you can post in there. But no, this one I think is a is a more healthy interest. Um, there's not a direct like A to B connection, but I think there's an A to some later letter of the alphabet connection because my dissertation was about literal practicing ceremonial magicians who were members of occult secret societies and were doing what they thought was real magic, some of them conjuring what they thought were real demons. And then I looked at how that affected their writing. Specifically, I was looking at playwrights, and then did they stage any of what they thought were real magical spells? And if so, does that bring up questions of like spiritual consent, spiritual abuse? So it kind of boils down to why do people believe weird things and how does it influence them? Nowadays, right now in the 2020s, we see people believing a lot of things that we wouldn't have thought would have so much cachet a few years ago. Um and just as one like super brief quick example, for the 2016 election, there were groups of witches who were casting spells against Donald Trump to prevent him winning the election. And then when he won, they made a commitment to gather at midnight once a month, wherever they were around the world, to cast spells against him to try to prevent him putting any of his policies in place. And then a whole other coven or many covens decided to support him, and so they cast protective spells about him, and so they got together at the same time at midnight, the same day every month, and cast protective spells towards the White House to try to protect him from evil influences and help him to bring his policies forward. Wow. I do not know whether they are still practicing this.

SPEAKER_02: 51:27

I'm picturing the end of Harry Potter with that protective spell over Hoggle. That's that's that's over that's over the White House.

SPEAKER_07: 51:33

That's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_04: 51:36

Depends who the stronger covenant is, depends who the stronger covenant. I don't know. Are we rooting for the dark covenant?

SPEAKER_05: 51:46

I'm not uttering anything. I'm not saying anything. I've gotta put my money somewhere. I've gotta put my money somewhere. I'll take your money.

SPEAKER_07: 52:06

I've gotta put my money somewhere. But like the more I look into it, the more I find out that there's significant overlap between white Christian nationalism and occult movements, which is super interesting because the more conservative Christians are, the more they tend to say, like, Satanism is the greatest evil, and you know, occultism which has perhaps the greatest evil. But I don't think they realize how much overlap their practices have with occult traditions throughout the ages. And like, for instance, there was this made-up new religion, the cult of Kek, that was operative on January 6th and so forth. There's like there's a lot of stuff there. Um this did not directly lead to my current podcast, Words Do Things, in which I asked.

SPEAKER_02: 52:49

Great name for a podcast, by the way.

SPEAKER_07: 52:50

Uncivil rhetoric Uncivil Rhetoric. The podcast really more came out of personal pain. Um because as you know, and as you have seen, and as you've been recipients of, people are not really toning down their rhetoric when they aim it at somebody with whom they have a disagreement. So, you know, we go straight from I disagree with you on such and such an issue on the current administration or on human sexuality or on um the beginnings of personhood or on immigration, whatever the topic is, we go straight from I disagree with you to you are a Nazi, you are a demon, you are a monster, you know, you are not a Christian, you're probably not even human. Like we go straight to that. And I've been the recipient of that rhetoric from dear friends and family members and pastors. So being a trained academic, I say, how am I gonna deal with this? I'm gonna do a podcast, I'm gonna analyze it and find out all the motivation test niches and get super smart people on and ask them about it. So that's why I had Malcolm as my first guest of the new season.

SPEAKER_04: 53:59

No, I was happy to do it.

SPEAKER_07: 54:01

Which, you know, Malcolm, if you'd solved all the problems, I wouldn't have had to keep going.

SPEAKER_04: 54:04

I know, I know. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02: 54:07

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Well, what are some things that you've learned from having these different uh thinkers, pastors uh on um the Words Do Things podcast? You also had another podcast back in the day, the 1619 and 1776 podcast.

SPEAKER_07: 54:26

That's right. And I re-released that one as sort of like a series subsumed under this new one. So the episodes can be out there again. I've learned that I can't put people into boxes based on the first thing they say.

SPEAKER_02: 54:43

I mean you can't.

SPEAKER_07: 54:44

So if they say, I believe, what'd you say? I mean I can't. I ought not to.

SPEAKER_08: 54:53

Shouldn't. Sorry.

SPEAKER_07: 54:55

You know, if somebody says to me, I think X about, you know, say ICE operations in Minneapolis, I automatically assume that I know what they think about Gaza, about vaccines, about voting rights, about human sexuality. And I'm usually wrong. Like people do not just automatically line up to the platforms that political parties have decided that they ought to line up to. And people have decades-long reasons for why they think what they think. You know, they didn't wake up last Tuesday and say, I'm gonna hate immigrants or something like that. They have decades-long reasons that have to do with their parents and their upbringing and their religious commitments and mostly their economic realities and what they've been told about. Oh, you need the money noise. Political economy.

SPEAKER_02: 55:49

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_05: 55:50

She's helping us out. I love it. I need the ding. I need the ding. There we go.

SPEAKER_02: 55:55

Oh, that was the right one, but we'll work it. I don't know. There it is.

SPEAKER_07: 55:59

There it is. Um that they ain't changing their minds in a hurry.

SPEAKER_09: 56:05

Right. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 56:06

So in a way, I'm I'm more discouraged because I've learned how intractable people are and how much they even justify attack rhetoric.

SPEAKER_02: 56:17

So I I 100% I I've I see I read that, hear that on so many things. Uh, and I know we're not here to say like you know, all this whole conversation is to say how much we disagree with Trump. Um but he shifts his views on things like every other day. So one day he's pro-life, one day he's not. And the base follows. So it it seems like people can shift their opinion real quick on things. Okay.

SPEAKER_07: 56:48

Is that and I am seeing people become become disillusioned because he's not delivering on certain promises that that that they thought he would.

SPEAKER_09: 56:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 56:58

And I have changed my views when people have sat down and talked to me about it, either with rational argument or with emotional personal story or with imaginative persuasion.

SPEAKER_10: 57:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 57:08

You know, I have grown as a person, so I keep trying. I keep engaging in these thoughtful conversations.

SPEAKER_02: 57:15

Yeah. You bring on some people on that are very different. You brought Malcolm on, you bring on some people I would disagree with. And I'm like, ooh, she is bringing them all on.

SPEAKER_07: 57:24

Yes, I brought on someone who is starting a turning point USA chapter at his Bible college, where he where he teaches. Um yeah, I brought on pastors from wildly different traditions, you know, from super conservative traditional marriage people to a lesbian Lutheran minister. So I really want to listen to everybody because I want to understand why they think what they think and what its impacts are. And the main thing I would love to persuade everybody to consider is those who disagree with me are not less intelligent and less ethical. Now they could still be wrong. But also, if we live in a pluralist society, they're allowed to be wrong. I'm allowed to try to persuade them, but they are legally allowed to be wrong. And that's that's where I am right at this exact minute. So my latest stuff, my latest Substack post, and my upcoming solo podcast episode are going to be about have we decided we don't want a pluralistic society anymore?

SPEAKER_05: 58:28

Some people have.

SPEAKER_02: 58:29

And that's what my my question is. Yeah, so I I'm 100% with you, but then what happens when you connect with someone who doesn't want a pluralistic society? Yeah, what do you do then?

SPEAKER_07: 58:39

And that does seem to be almost everybody. Everybody seems to want to have a totalitarian state that lines up to their position. So let's let's pick a really, really difficult issue right now. Oh boy. Let's pick the genocide in Gaza.

SPEAKER_08: 58:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 58:53

I do not believe that anyone ought to be allowed to think that that is okay.

unknown: 58:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08: 58:58

Right.

SPEAKER_07: 58:58

I don't think anyone should be allowed to say, it's cool that we are just murdering half a million civilians, mostly women, children, and elderly.

SPEAKER_10: 59:06

Right.

SPEAKER_07: 59:06

You know, the list of children under age one is over 30 pages long in small font who have been murdered. Um I don't think anyone should think that that is okay. But I do think that we should be allowed to express different views on how to stop it, why it happened, how to heal from it, and how to um how to prevent it happening again.

SPEAKER_08: 59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 59:35

But everybody else I talk to thinks we should not be allowed to have a right of opinion even on those aspects. That, you know, if you don't agree with me on exactly this list of how it happened, why it's happening, how to stop it, blah, blah, blah, then you are a monster, a demon, yeah, an animal, whatever.

SPEAKER_02: 59:53

It feels like you're not.

SPEAKER_07: 59:53

And furthermore, even though I don't sorry, Slim, even though I don't think anybody should be allowed to say it's okay, if we live in a pluralistic society, they are allowed to say that. Then we get into where is where is the line with hate speech, but everybody also thinks that their line for hate speech is the line. Sorry, for you.

SPEAKER_08: 1:00:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:10

No, it just it feels like it's either you say, um, I'm gonna have kind of a um uh myopic my way or the highway. I only this is the right way to see all of life, and so you fall in line or the swing the pendulum, and you just kind of become like it's all relative. Uh like that's how you believe that I believe differently. And we just constantly are like, ah, interesting, you have a different belief. Um and it's just all it's it's very kind of apathetic. And I think what you're trying to do of saying, no, I actually do have some convictions, but I also want to have compassion for the why you believe what you believe. And I think that is the I think I I think that's the the picture of that um pluralistic society that I want to live in, to go, oh, I disagree with you. I would love to convince you on these things. I'm not gonna, you know, vote to deport you if you disagree with me or anything like that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:04

It's it's so fascinating how much how much of this is uh us I think about in the scripture why like why we're told to pray for our um to pray for our leaders that uh that we that we pray for them so that we might be able to live quiet and peaceable lives. Um like a lot of this is like this is even even all the like arguments we have about like the exerting of power and stuff like that, like the goal is not my goal is not that I'm in charge and everybody knows what I say. My goal is to be able to live a quiet and peaceable life. And so it's interesting that um it's it's all it's interesting that you know as you uh as you narrate, especially um the tendencies that folks have where the things that they say appear to take us to a future where we don't have a we know where people are saying they don't want a pluralistic society. It's it's interesting to hear that, especially from Baptists who have a history of being a persecuted minority. Um and like you would you would think that and and and most of the folks that I try to listen to um in the Christian tradition are those who have been persecuted because you tend to uh your your approach to a number of these conversations is uh is different. There's uh humility because there's also a recognition that when when you amass a certain amount of power and influence, like you tend to spend that energy trying to keep it. And and spending that energy trying to keep it often means you gotta you gotta keep other people from getting it. Um and so um and there's uh I think for a number in a number of church contexts, people have gotten to okay. Um in a number uh in a number of church contexts, people people have gotten used to having that power. And so they're like, we want to keep it. Also extend it because that's what God look the Jesus is on the throne, so we should be on the throne too, and that means that people should do what we say.

SPEAKER_07: 1:03:09

So that's but part of the problem too, and I I know you know this, and you guys talk about this a lot. I want to push back against myself because me all like, oh, we should have pluralism. But these are matters of life and death. They are why should pluralism be allowed? Shouldn't everybody who's on the side of death be silenced? Shouldn't they be shut down? So you've you've tweeted like to not take a stand is to be complicit. Like nobody can be. I did that years ago.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:39

I did that years ago. I was young, I was young and naive. Okay, no, no. Okay, here's the thing. Like a year and a half ago. A year and a half a half.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:46

No, no, no, no, no. Okay, okay, so that that's a very so it's a wonderful way to frame it because uh this is why um for me the parable of the wheat and the weeds is so important and has become even more important as the years go by. Because uh, and I've I said this on the uh on the podcast before. Back in undergrad, I used to be like I was a like social and political pessimist because I because I was premillennial, basically, basically thinking, hey, like the world's just getting worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. Left behind. And then the world's gonna burn it up.

SPEAKER_07: 1:04:21

That's the problem. You read 30 of those books. Exactly. Right, exactly, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:24

That's a lot of books.

SPEAKER_07: 1:04:25

Okay, it it I read a lot.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:28

I like reading. Reading trade. Reading is fun. And the books are like 160 pages a piece. So that's not even not even that big of a deal. Um so, but um, but then so in the parable of the wheat and the weeds, you know, the um the the owner of the field sows some wheat. At night, the enemy comes in, stows weeds, and then the workers wake up and they're like, oh my gosh, there are wheat and weeds here. We want to pull these weeds out. Uh and the and the owner of the and the owner of the field is like, no, because if you pull out the weeds, you're gonna pull out wheat too. Wait for the harvest. I'm gonna tell the reapers, take the weeds over, take the weeds to be burned, take the wheat to the, take the wheat to the barn. And um, and one of the things that I think we're experiencing, and this is me too, is we're experiencing the frustration of the agricultural worker who looks out into the field and they're like, okay, I see great stuff, yes, but there are also these weeds, and I want to pluck up, I wanna pluck up the weeds. Um, and the Lord is like, no, I'm gonna do it. I know it's frustrating. I know it's frustrating because also those weeds are getting taller. Yeah, I like I get like I get that. Like that's really frustrating to me.

SPEAKER_07: 1:05:38

They're choking out and they're choking out their kids, and they're choking out the weed.

SPEAKER_04: 1:05:41

Exactly. And they're choking out the weed. And they're like, and and and and and and and our thing is like, and we see it, and it makes us mad, and all this kind of stuff. Most, but also a lot of it is are things like that we like we can't do anything about it. So that's so so that makes it even more frustrating. And so And and yet and yet and yet still the Lord responds, like, I'm I'm gonna I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And and so part of it is thinking about like there are things that the Lord has, I think, given us. Um like there are neighbors that the Lord has placed in our path to love. Um and and and there is and and there is a responsibility that we have that we have there. But there are but there are also these other situations where, and because I feel this too, where I was like, I really want to pluck up these weeds. And the Lord is like, no, because if you do, you're you're gonna cause all kinds of havoc that you can't even that you can't even conceive of. There are there are some things that I'm gonna have to do. So one so so for me, one of the things is is is we have to get really uh we we have to be really intentional about our about our prayers. Because one of the things about even these issues of issues of disagreement is that, and and Slim and I were uh I mean we were just talking about this before. Like sometimes we think, okay, well, if somebody just saw, we'll say ICE, ICE do this ridiculous, violent thing, like that'll change people's minds. Or if the president says this, or if the Epstein files say this, like that'll be that'll be what breaks the camel's back, and that'll change the bike, or whatever. We we've seen a lot, we've seen a lot. And so like, so what we can do is we can be like, okay, well, that just means these people are lost causes. So I'm so I'm gonna write them. So I'm gonna write them off. Um that's what that's the temptation. And and and and in so doing, this is this is like the way I feel about when Francis Grimke, after years of witnessing lynchings, was like, hey, uh the only way to stop a mob is to like these white people got a fear for their lives. Like that's the that's the only way, that's the that that's the only way it's gonna stop. What that is, is that is at root um a loss of hope. And and and because because there has to be the part in our hearts we're like, but I am still going to pray that the Lord, I I I don't know what's going to open people's eyes to love of neighbor, but I know that the but I know that that's something that the Lord, I know that's something that the Lord can do. And my prayer is that the Lord would do it. And like, I don't know, like sometimes we have to get to our get to basically the end of our rope to then to then remind ourselves of the fact that like we don't change people's minds. We don't. We can't like that, like that's the other thing. Data doesn't change people's minds. We know that we know this from the research. Like data people can get all these facts and stuff.

SPEAKER_07: 1:08:40

Seeing videos doesn't change. See, different videos.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08:44

We see different videos exactly exactly. And so, and so that but that's got to what that ought to do is then foment humility for us and gentleness, which is really hard, especially when you're dealing with, like I said, life and death issues.

SPEAKER_07: 1:09:00

When you're dealing with abominations, exactly atrocities.

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:03

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:04

Um What's interesting, the I was thinking about like the verses that say, like, how can the love of the father be in them? And I'm like, like, what is that? What is that verse? What's that context? And I'm looking at 1 John 2, um and it it first John 2 9, it says, anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister, I'm thinking, how can the love of the father be in them? It says, they're still in the darkness. Okay, so that's not where it's at. Um, and it says, Anyone, um, but anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness, walks around in darkness. Mean like they're they're being um uh a blindness has come upon them. They they are not seen. And I'm like, wait, but where's the that the verse that says the love of the father is not in them? It's a couple verses down in 15, it says, Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in them. It's not about hating or loving your brother. And I'm like, ah, I felt like that was the one. But then I'm I'm I'm I'm like, how can that not be true? That would be the thing that would say is the love of the father is not in them if they hate their brother or sister. Um but then I think about Jesus on the cross who says, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they're doing. That's the blindness, that's the darkness that's come around. And I'm like, so you're telling me to love people who don't love others? I don't want to do that. They're like, Oh, you did that for me. So that should probably but I think Serena, what you are doing in in in interviewing and talking to different people around this, I think the the ability for you to be able to listen is maybe because of your rootedness in the inklings and this imagination. Um, because you're able to go like, maybe it there's something I'm not seeing to help me picture.

SPEAKER_07: 1:10:32

Um, and also I do try to imagine what would it be like to hold their position? What would be the reasons and why are they persuaded of it? And you know, honestly, it usually works. I'm usually able to imagine holding that position.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:45

Has there have have have you ever been like, ah, I need to rethink everything now after talking to the this person? Has there ever been something?

SPEAKER_07: 1:10:54

I always rethink little bits for sure.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 1:10:57

Um that's good. It's always it always changes nuances. And prior conversations with loved ones have have done that, have made me rethink whole things. But just to to piggyback on what both of you gentlemen were saying, I also think of the principle do not do evil that good may result. And or to take Andolf's words, even the very wise cannot see all ends. So I want to be careful not to use attack language or use a hateful stance or uh maybe even break the law in protesting or something like that, because I don't know what all the results will be, and I can't guarantee that the results will be good. And even if they are, doing evil along the way can be damaging. So yeah, I'm I'm trying to listen to people, but it's really hard. It's very, very hard. And I I get like a psychosomatic anxiety reaction when people say things that I think are horrifying. I mean, I get like dizzy and I feel like I'm gonna pass out here because I get so upset when people say things that I think are causing human harm, but they are also a human to whom I should listen.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:14

Well, one of the one of the big things besides uh having you as a friend uh on the podcast, but one of the big things I wanted to say, like, hey, we I would love to talk with you is the most recent article you wrote. Uh, you know, this being Theology in Pieces podcast, people who are listening have had their theology, their worldview of the church and of the you know, God of the Bible kind of broken. Um, and I think your article um that you recently wrote, Pastors Are the Problem. Which is such a great title. Um, and I was like, I agree. And so uh my first question is who who do you think you are? And my second is like, how dare you?

SPEAKER_07: 1:12:54

Um I'm just a woman. I don't have a right to have any opinion. I need to submit to you your male headship, guys.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:04

You know, it would be so much easier if I believed that. No, no, no, no. Um what what what what prompted you to write this? Um what what what are you trying to do?

SPEAKER_07: 1:13:15

How far back should we go? Oh boy. I mean, I've I've suffered under and seen other people suffer under what you probably call spiritual abuse for so many years now. It's hard to even notice when it began because it was subtle at first. At first, it was like we can't read fiction because you know that's not like sanctioned by God. And so therefore your whole calling is um is in question. Or like when I went to a pastor because I knew he'd been an English major and undergrad, and I was like, I'm trying to decide whether to study modernist lit or medieval lit, what do you think? And he's like, I think you need to stay home and have babies because women are saved through childbearing. And I'm like, You don't even know anything about me and my life. Yeah. And like, why don't you even ask, you know? And to then to the next church where a 13-year-old boy told me I was going to hell for coloring my hair, and his parents wouldn't make me apologize, and instead backed him up. And at that same church, a past um an elder made a sexist joke, and I called him out on it, and he's like, damn you, I was talking to your husband, not you, in front of everybody. Um that was past history. The recent is the ways that churches are making idols out of one political position or another, and are requiring everybody to bow down and worship that political idol if you're gonna be a member of that congregation. And they are flying a political flag, sometimes literally, you know, sometimes there is literally a flag of certain colors or patterns or design on the church, and sometimes it's metaphorical. Um, but I've been told over and over again in this this place where I live and where I've been trying to find a church for three years, I've been told, well, if you don't agree with such and such, you're not welcome here, or you're welcome, but um, I mean, I was told by a pastor whose church I was trying to attend that I was a bad influence on the church. And he wouldn't tell his congregants about an event that I was hosting, because I'm a bad influence. And he had made certain assumptions of what he thought I believed about human sexuality and personhood uh that were wrong. And when he found out he was wrong about those, he apologized. But he apologized because he found out my beliefs aligned with his, not because he'd been denigrating me as a member of the body of Christ. Um so I've I've been unable to find a church. So you think that's the pastors are just insecure in that because No, I think they're worshiping a false gospel where they've taken a certain set of social or political rules and said these are the gospel. So the one was like, we will not join the liberal churches in feeding the hungry because that would look like we approved of their doctrine. I'm like, no, it would look like you wanted to feed the hungry.

SPEAKER_09: 1:16:08

That's what it would look like. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_07: 1:16:10

Yeah, and they're like, oh no, we'll do it separately, we'll do it on our own because we don't approve of their doctrine. Um, so I don't I don't know if it's in security. I think it's it's judgment. It's like I have the truth, the whole truth, and nobody else does.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:26

So it's the flip side of the uh pluralistic society. It's no, we have it, and you are not in step. Right.

SPEAKER_07: 1:16:33

And we need to have a unified Christian political system here in America that is my religious and political system, and everyone needs to conform to it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:43

Yeah. So maybe watching uh the uh Wake Up Dead Man um was uh that uh that uh that priest uh Monsir or whatever his name was uh Monsignor Wix. Monsieur Wicks, was that uh like, oh, these are like the people I've been talking to.

SPEAKER_07: 1:16:58

Yes, yeah, that was very that was a beautiful artistic representation of these divisions.

SPEAKER_10: 1:17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 1:17:04

And then I was talking to a young Presbyterian minister about that movie, and he's like, Well, you know, Monsignor Wicks had a point that somehow we need to save the world because the world is out to get us. Saying, you know, the villain of this movie has a point is not always the best rhetorical move. But yeah, I mean that that's the that he was like intentionally trying to whittle down his con congregation because he wanted that isolationist like feel like he was standing up for this tiny minority of truth.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 1:17:43

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:44

So you're you're you're it's not just watching a movie, you're experiencing this and you're and so church after church after church that I've been visiting. Why would why do you say uh pastors are the problem, not the church? Um because I think there's probably churches that are embodiments of this, but what wh why do you place the uh the locus of this in the channel? Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_07: 1:18:06

And sometimes there are congregations that are more radicalized than their minister. I have seen that, where all the people in the church are watching or listening to certain influencers and the pastor is trying to sort of win them away from that. But in general, it is the pastor who sort of has that front-facing role and has those conversations with the public saying who is welcome and who is not welcome here, and saying which positions we hold and which ones you have to bow down to if you're going to be here. And I've just seen so many pastors abusing their power. And it's sometimes kind of pathetic because it's very limited. You know, they might have a teeny tiny congregation of like 18 people in rural upstate New York, and yet they still want to wield power over what those people can say and do and who's in and who's out.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:54

Yeah. Yeah, no, I I think when I see it, it's not like it almost feels like it's like the tail wagging the dog um away these these pastors are are leading. Uh they are they are responding to what is my culture, what is in it whether it comes from the dear leader um to our people, but they're responding probably more so to their people, because I know that this is where their people's direction is. And to me, I think I what what I resonated with your article uh and I agreed with Pastors of the Problem is is it's this lack of um courage, uh this lack of bravery uh to challenge a if your congregation is like kind of being a-holes. Um if your congregation is is kind of being you know dogmatic uh on certain things, to be like, hey y'all, that's not who we are as a church. Um and but it's it's you could say it's the congregation doing these things, but but the pastoral role has a prophetic voice to challenge uh to equip the saints for ministry. And if you neglect that, you are now just saying, Well, whatever the church wants. Um and uh now the church is saying, Well, whatever the my political party wants, and now it's whatever dear leader wants. And so it's just we just it's all backwards.

SPEAKER_07: 1:20:13

And it's an us and them mentality. That's that's the kind of rhetoric I really hate too, is that you know we in here have the truth, and them out there, they out there don't have it. And so that's why I urged pastors in that piece. I urge them, whoever it is that you think is the problem, your pews should be packed with them.

SPEAKER_10: 1:20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07: 1:20:31

Because on the one hand, if you are a humble servant who wants to save people and you think those are the people who are wrong, they're the ones you should be trying to save. But on the other hand, if you're arrogant and think you're the only one who has the truth, well then you should be trying to get them to have the truth. So if you're a pastor who thinks, oh, it's the LGBTQ lobby that is the problem, then your pews have better be full of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. If you're one of these progressives who's like, you know, those bigoted, racist rednecks down the road, they're the problem, your pews should be full of them so that you can be learning from them and ministering to them.

SPEAKER_04: 1:21:09

But but the thing about that though is that that undermines the whole warrior, it it undermines the whole warrior mentality. Yes, which is undermines the warrior ethos. If you're if you're a warrior, then like when people are wrong, they should just lose. You need an enemy to fight.

unknown: 1:21:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:28

And like or you need to tell them why they're wrong.

SPEAKER_04: 1:21:32

Yeah, and like, and but also like if they die, it's fine. Because they were wrong. So they they lose. And what's important is that we win. And like my and and like it's it's so interesting in the in the fact that it's exactly the opposite of so like I I've been I've I I've been thinking, I I I told the church, I was like, look, like the nation is much like Rome, but like raggedy.

SPEAKER_07: 1:21:57

Um that's like that's what that's what we're in. It's like the discount, it's like the dollar store Rome.

SPEAKER_04: 1:22:02

Exactly, right? But but but like my other thing is that like when the church under Rome, when they saw that Rome was, for example, well, like Nero, they saw that Nero was like lighting Christians up like torches and stuff, like their response was not, okay, but like, but we're right, so let's take over Rome. The response was, okay, uh, well, how are we gonna be the kind of people who are ready to die? Like that, and that, like, and that's a completely different way of framing the Christian life than how is it that I can go out into every space and win? Because like that, like, like, like that just seems so fundamentally contrary to me to the way that Christ has called us to. I mean, he says, if you want to be my disciple, you take up your you take up your cross and come follow me. Like that as an ethos, put everybody else on the cross. Let everybody put everybody else on the cross. Like just something that lies at the very root of the ethos of the faith. To see it become a no, like we're warriors and we need to win. And if we lose, like that's that cuts against the message of the gospel or whatever. It's like, no, it seems to be the case that when that when when folks when when when Christians went went to the I mean went to the lions, they did so, they did so because their their fundamental commitment was to follow Jesus. And and there are many, it's Slim just preached on the Transfiguration this past Sunday. And it was a glorious sermon. But as I was talking as I was talking to him afterwards, but as I was talking to Slim afterwards, I was like, Slim, like when we think about our role as pastors, like I want I want our fundamental job to purely be to reveal the glory of Jesus Christ to the people of God. And to have them compelled by it in a set to the to the extent that they real they realize and recognize that that's what that's what matters. And and there are and but there are a number of communities where they're like, but there are all these other things that are much cooler than Jesus. Political power is cooler than Jesus, material wealth is quick is cooler than Jesus, cultural influence, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta take over the culture because that's because that's cooler than Jesus. Like I and and I just want I want people to be reminded, like there's there's nothing there's nothing better than Jesus. But also, when you see that, like that also means that you're actually gonna be called to to give up some stuff. Like in order for you to in order for you to really in order to really seek after the kingdom of God and and his righteousness, yeah, like there are things that are lesser than that that you're probably gonna have to that you're probably gonna have to loosen your grip on. Um but but but we have a number of things that we don't want to loosen our grip on those things.

SPEAKER_07: 1:24:52

Yeah, indeed.

SPEAKER_04: 1:24:53

Yeah, too.

SPEAKER_07: 1:24:54

Makes me think as a writer and a literary scholar, Malcolm, I he what I hear you saying, is it matters what story we tell.

SPEAKER_06: 1:25:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07: 1:25:01

It matters what our gospel narratives, is it is it a triumphalist narrative?

SPEAKER_06: 1:25:05

What's beautiful about it?

SPEAKER_07: 1:25:06

Am I the hero in the hero's journey, or is he the hero in the hero's journey? Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:25:11

Yeah. Like, where is that? What like what is the beauty that you're compelled by? Is the beauty that you're compelled by a beauty where you just win and everybody else around you loses, and like that's what's awesome?

unknown: 1:25:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 1:25:24

If so, then like that's what you're gonna chase after. And if that's the message that you're hearing, if that's the good that like if that's the good that's being presented to you week after week, then like that's that's the quote unquote beauty that you're gonna pursue.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:39

And I think I think when you have that beauty, when you have uh Jesus transfigured for you, when he's the sun that you are, you know, having your life orbit around, like that is so such a secure relationship to when you have someone who come in, comes into your church and believes this or this or this that might be different, you're like, that's okay. Like we have Jesus. Like this is also why we're we're good.

SPEAKER_04: 1:26:04

Like this is and this is but this is also why Jesus, after he comes down off the mountain, he's like, Don't tell anybody about this until after I get up from the dead. Because he's like, you're gonna be tempted to think that this was the high point of my ministry.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:26:18

Because what you just saw is amazing, and like it's it's one of the greatest things that you could ever witness, but it's not the greatest thing that you'll that you'll witness. Because the greatest thing that you're gonna witness is my resurrection, and the only way that that resurrection can happen is if I die. And that and then but but but but we want to skip over all that. We want to skip over all that. And I like, and I just want to be on the mountain. I just want to be like Peter, and let's just let's let's make the shelters here, and let's just hang out, let's just hang out here. And he's like, No, I I've got another mountain I need to go to. That's even more important than this, that's even more important than this than this mountain. Uh, sorry. That's just we got some preaching going on.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:01

We got some preaching.

SPEAKER_07: 1:27:02

Sorry, not sorry.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:05

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_07: 1:27:06

Well, I might not have found a church, but I could always just call up Malcolm. Mean some good preaching.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:13

I just want church, I want I want these churches to be so secure in Jesus that they can they can have differing views. Like I and I agree with you. Pastors are the problem. I I tried to encourage you, I try to encourage other people when you're visiting churches. Like, hey, you're not gonna agree on everything. You know, find you know, if there's like 11 priorities you have for your church, you know, if you can find seven of the eleven, that's a that's um amazing. Like that's awesome. Like if you get 11 of 11, like that that's more cult like, and you're like, oh, we believe everything the same.

SPEAKER_07: 1:27:42

Um but I can tell you what happens with cults.

SPEAKER_04: 1:27:46

We're gonna do another we'll do another episode with you, Serena, we'll where we'll where where we'll go into the occult, we're gonna go into the occult stuff. Yeah, that'll be fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:55

And we will and we'll practice it, and it'll be great.

SPEAKER_07: 1:27:58

What? Well, and that's my Solutions and I'm able to find a church. I'll just start a religion to be a three sense of a bit.

SPEAKER_05: 1:28:06

I'm glad we called that a joke.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:08

This is our advice to anyone listening. Start your religion. Don't listen to this live. No, actually, let's end. Um, you you've written uh some poetry. Um, uh, you have a uh a book called uh how do you pronounce that? Is it catechesis?

SPEAKER_07: 1:28:22

Caduceus. Caduceus.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:25

Um let's close. Is there a is there a poem that from that that still resonates with you? Because that was written back in 2012. Is that right?

SPEAKER_07: 1:28:31

Thanks. Oh man, I revisited these today when you asked, and I was like, I don't even remember writing these. And the caduceus is a really, really interesting thing. It's the medical symbol of the two serpents surrounding a rod, and it it's it gets conflated with the one snake around the rod, which is the symbol of Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness, which was a sign of healing. This one comes from Greek mythology from the physician Asclepius and um po but they're both stories of poison serpents and then healing. So the book is sort of a collection about different voices and different personas and revelations and healing and things. So given what we talked about, I think I'll read the last piece in it, actually, epilogue. And it's called On Patmos. So you could think of it as John towards the end of his life. But I'm thinking of it now sort of with this traveling from church to church and trying to pick up the scraps of what is good there. Because there is something good in everyone that I visit. These are all people made in the image of God. Every one of them has studied the scripture to some extent and is trying to serve God in some ex to some extent, even though I I I see these idols. But you know, I'm not walking into the church to judge them and go through a checklist and there to try to worship and fellowship. So here's a sonnet that I think maybe captures a little bit of that tone. Lord, forgive this crust of bread, stale as sawdust crumbling through my hands. I watch each fragment falling towards the floor and catch each aged grain as sharp as Roman nails. Lord, forgive this watered wine, as pale as tears, a cup of these hands that clasp like prayer, desperate for this sip to last up to my lips, my palms a wrinkled grail. Lord, forgive the sop I make of dust and festal dregs. My guards would give no more. It is enough to recollect your body through the nurture of these crumbs, and just enough to slake me, racked with visions, poor in spirit, solitary, waning towards my glory.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:39

Thanks. That's so good. We we need more poetry in our lives. That's so good.

SPEAKER_07: 1:30:44

That's a good general principle.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:45

Yes, that's something that I neglect too much. Uh, so I appreciate that. Thank you so much, Serena, for coming on, sharing something vulnerable like this, uh, sharing your life, sharing um struggles with church pastors, um church with uh all the inklings, come on, come on.

SPEAKER_07: 1:31:04

And public rhetoric.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:05

Maybe we should start reading some of these uh not space trilogy.

SPEAKER_07: 1:31:09

We'll call it The Ransom Cycle.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:12

The ransom cycle.

SPEAKER_07: 1:31:13

Right now, um I I do teach online classes on some of these books. I taught one online, The Witch and the Wardrobe in the Fall. Okay. I have one coming up later in the spring or summer on one of Charles Lillian's books, but right now, starting in March, I'm gonna be co-teaching a course with the great painter Bruce Herman on T. S. Elliott's Four Quartets. Nice is a beautiful, long, profound poem that's really kind of wrestling with a lot of these things. He wrote it during World War II, and it's dealing with time and memory and regrets and redemption, and um yeah, what what chance of redemption do we temporal creatures have?

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:46

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_07: 1:31:48

Maybe y'all be interested in that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:50

Well, um, we appreciate your time. Um, if uh people want to follow up with you, I'll I'll link the your your website in the show notes. Uh can they find you online anywhere as well?

SPEAKER_07: 1:32:00

Yeah, I'm pretty easy. I'm pretty hard to avoid online. Pretty easy to find Dr. Soraya Higgins on most social media platforms. The editorial and literary classes can be found on WordHorde, which is W-Y-R-D-H-O-A-R-D.com. Nice. Um but yeah, I'm around the internets.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:16

Love it. Love it. Love it. Well, thank you so much. Yes. Um, and y'all thank you for listening. Shoot your questions to Hello at the LGBT.com. Um, and we would uh appreciate it. If you uh if you like this review, would you like it? Rate it. Would you share uh this this interview with uh Serena with some fellow people who uh may want to spur some imaginations to have uh hard conversations maybe with uh people they might disagree with, and maybe, maybe, just maybe, we can have open minds and things like that. So thank you, Serena.

SPEAKER_07: 1:32:46

Thanks. Bye.