Cold Open And Game Chat

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Good morning, Universe, Galaxy. Welcome to Theology in Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your host, Slim End.

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Malcolm.

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And today, we're gonna talk about the Armageddon and the end of the world. Oh, great. Aren't you excited, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_03 0:49

So excited.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Ah, yes. I mean, who wouldn't want to usher in the end times?

SPEAKER_03 0:56

I don't I didn't I didn't know that was the thing that we could do. So well. Thought it was a thing that we wait for.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

You're missing out, man. You are missing out.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

The Lord will come back whenever he wants.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

No, no, no, no, no, no. God, we you're missing out. We actually can usher in the end times. That's what we're gonna talk about a little bit later. Um boy.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Right now, I want to hear what's going on in Malcolm's world.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

What, what, what, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 1:23

I'm chilling, bro. Chilling, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

You playing video games?

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Just trying to, just trying to. I mean, I'm playing uh Resident Evil Requiem. That's the that's the game I'm playing right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Resident Evil Requiem. Is this is this a Christian game?

SPEAKER_03 1:38

No. No, goodness, goodness no.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

How how can you justify spending your time survival horror, man?

SPEAKER_03 1:46

I'm all about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Ah, that is that is definitely my favorite. Uh I I am replaying again, I think maybe for the fourth time, The Last of Us. It's fire. It's so good.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Such a fire game.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Uh I who knew the survival horror was just like where we definitely click. It's great, man. Yeah. I mean, you're always why we're friends. I mean, yes, yes. Because we're we're we're prepared for the survival of Oh no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

I mean, I'm not prepared at all. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Um did not purchase an a crossbow.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Um look, if I was in the last, if I was in the Last of Us universe, I would just be dead. Like I just I would just be dead. You would. I don't have I don't have a surviv I don't have that kind of survival instinct.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Oh, Malcolm stuff.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

No, I just nah. But I but I would likely but I would likely be pressured into it because I got a family I need to care for. But I would rather just be like, See, look, this just means that we all just need to die. Like that's just like this all it's fine. It's fine. Fine. We're good. This is just the Lord saying, it's our time.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Oh wow. Okay. Yeah, no, I think uh I think I'd make a good while. I think I would last until um six months in. And you may like six months, all right. But I was thinking about the other day. I was like, man, it's just so easy to get groceries from the grocery store. It is actually working to get your food.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

That that part I'm too soft. I'm too soft for it, man.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Man, that that's like I hate waiting on fishing. Fishing takes so long. And we're we're we're we're expected to live off that.

Terrible Tweets Take Over

SPEAKER_02 3:32

I've watched the show alone. That's been rough. Um, hey. That's what we came here to talk about. That's why you tuned in to theology pieces. Um well one of my favorite segments. Um, we're just gonna, I was gonna make a uh this a like we normally do, a terrible tweet section. Um because you know, there are some Terrible tweets. That was the wrong button. Terrible tweets.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

But we could go with this one if we want.

unknown 4:07

Oh dear.

Military Armageddon Claims Examined

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Um dear. Um, what we were gonna do as terrible tweet section is just now taken over to be the whole thing because it's just so much, there's so much terribleness. Um, I was hoping we'd have a conversation about um your com your debate with Thaddeus Williams and the social justice of the gospel, and also a you know question about can you be a Christian and a socialist? And I don't know. Um, so put a pin in that if you're if you are what if you want to research that before next time, we will get to that. But there's just been so many terrible tweets, just so much nonsense, Malcolm. Um but you know what? Maybe it's not. Maybe we are in the wrong, maybe we are not seeing things correctly, and so I thought it'd be important for us to um take some of these these uh uh tweets, and maybe that could just guide us to have a honest uh discussion about maybe we are in the end times. So uh this comes from uh an account on Twitter, which I'm still stubbornly calling. Um the the account is called Republicans Against Trump, which I didn't, you know. Good news. You can be a Republican against Trump. Um, commanders at more than 30 U.S. bases have reportedly told troops that the Iran War is part of God's plan and linked to Armageddon. One said Trump was anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Oh boy.

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The Military Religious Freedom Foundation says it has received over 110 complaints about commanders describing the war as biblically sanctioned and a sign of the Christian end times.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Malcolm. Is this absurd or is this something we should really consider? Um, because as we're see hearing here, um not just one you know rogue commander, but many, uh what'd it say, over 30 um US bases have reportedly told troops that this war that some are not some of our uh uh Republican uh senators are saying is not a war, but is a war, but isn't a war. Um so there's a confusion on that. But whatever it is, um, is part of God's plan uh to bring about Armageddon. Um one of the the one of the the quotes was uh this is all a part of God's divine plan. He's uh he specifically referenced numerous citations of the book of Revelation referring to Armageddon, the imminent return of Jesus. Um he said that this morning our commander opened up about the combat readiness status briefing by urging us to not be afraid as to what's happening with our combat operations, which is great. But why he said to not be afraid? He said, because President Trump has been anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in a Rom to cause Armageddon and mark his return to Earth. And he had a big grin on his face when he said all this, which made his message seem even more crazy, is according to the report. So we are not uh a political um response podcast, but when you start invoking uh Christian themes and justifications, it seems like this might be important um for us to consider. Is the end times coming? Is it Armageddon? Um and there are other pastors out there. Um Pastor John Haggy um um chose this past Sunday because the the the war kicked off on Saturday, so he had a a day to respond, and he um has uh part of his sermon was God's Coming, Operation Epic Fury, which is the title of this uh blitz the United States and Israel uh uh are engaged in. And he says uh thank he begins uh thanking God for the fabulous military victory over the enemies of Israel and for our President Donald Trump, whose wise courage has crushed the enemies of Zion. Uh-huh. So um I'm I'm thinking this feels like this is a a biblical war. Um you know, just like theological wars. We're an anime.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

I don't know what that means. So so we're we're in an anime, specifically full metal alchemist. Um so in this in this show.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

No one knows what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

In this uh look, some of us some of the listeners do. Um in that in that show, there is a there's basically an orchestrated there's an there's an orchestrated civil war slash massacre. Yeah. Because uh because human lives need to be sacrificed in order to in order to um uh in order to build what's called a philosopher's stone so that there's so that the so that the villain of this story can gain immortality. Basically. Um basically that's what we're this is this is not about. It's not about the end times, it's not all this stuff. It's about making human sacrifices for the for the amassing of human power. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

I don't know, man. Um because there is a lot of things there's a lot of religious leaders that would argue that he is bringing about the end times. Yeah, it's because they are a nice way to say this.

TV Preachers And Anointed Politics

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Ums in the biblical sense. Uh that's that's what that's that's what I'll that's that's what I'll say. Yeah. The the the thing is like it it's just all all of the spec all speculation about the return of Christ is foolish. It just is. Like it just is foolish. Jesus already told us yeah, there are going to be gonna be there are gonna be a whole bunch of wars, there are gonna be people, there are gonna be people claiming to be the Christ and all this kind of stuff. Don't listen to any of them. I'm gonna come back when I decide to come back, and just your only job is to be ready. Yeah, all like all of this, all of the speculation is uh dumb. But it's not just dumb. This is evil because now it's being used, because now it's being used specifically to justify killing folks. So like it's just like I mean, it the it it it's it's taking the name of the Lord in vain, uh it's uh murder, it's uh I mean it's just it's just it's it's it's not just foolish, it's also uh uh it's also it's also evil. Yeah. Um I mean this is where you could do because the fact of the matter is that the I mean the the country could do all this stuff without without religious without religious justification. You could just say what you're really doing it for, which is for oil, um, and for and and and really at um at at Israel's at Israel's bidding. But now I mean now we're in a situation where I mean the world economy is gonna be largely threatened by this, by this war. Um I know some have indicated that like Iran has been has been basically planning for this kind of thing for decades. They're like at some point, at some at some point the stuff is gonna hit the fan. Um and now uh and and now in in destabilizing that entire that entire area, so so much of the United States economy depends depends on that area. So now we we we've just we've just seen, I mean, like gas prices skyrocketed like last night. Like I think it's it's um uh and and and and and we'll we'll see other uh other effects of this stuff as the days go by.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah, I mean that that stuff I'm I I feel like I'm like ill-equipped to to speak on uh some of the the risk the you know financial implications, all these other things, um, and whether that was a part of why they also went after Venezuela to get you know some oil or whatever it may be. But like we're in Ecuador.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

We're in we're in we're doing we're doing stuff in Ecuador now because we just can't just can't stop.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

But the uh just can't stop. There's a phrase um um us that uh friends of ours um have have used that says, you know, good theology doesn't save you, but bad theology can harm you, which is why we really do care about theology. We we care a lot about it. And so you can have believe all the right things, and obviously that doesn't um doesn't always manifest itself out, but if you really have some bad theology that you believe, we've seen, everyone has seen it play out and it does harm people. Really bad theology, really, you know, um oppressive theology on you know on uh women um or on on who can who is considered human or not. Um and so we've seen that play out. But this question on end times, on Armageddon, this this theology that our um secretary of defense slash war um has believed, um this view of the end times is part of the framing of what how they're selling this to our military in this Christian way. And this is why I I just think it's really important for us to if if there are Christians out there who go, you know, they weren't thinking about this this way, they may just thought, oh, the uh Iran is you know you know has a dictating government, like sure, seems right to take him out, whether you believe in just war theory, and Malcolm and I will have a separate, and we've had other conversations on that as well. We our our our battle cry would be war, huh? What is it good for? Uh absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. Sing it again. All right, like like that if we had the licensee rights, that would be in the background of this episode. But that but you would you would just say that if you believed in that just war theory, you're like, cool, that's just what we we should have done it. Um but now we're saying this is because of biblical reasons. We're saying this is a because of biblical reasons, um, which is ironic. Because here's Marco Rubio, our our secretary of state, um, says the entire regime of Iran led by is led by clut radical clerics who don't make geopolitical decisions. They make decisions on the basis of theology, their view of theology, which is an apocalyptic one. And this is just the way we frame Iran to say, like, no, they everything they do is is is this theological thing. So it's it's um very corrupt, and you can't actually argue and and and have conversations with them. And yet we are framing this as this is God working through Trump, Jesus working through Trump to bring about the end times. And so it's just it's very ironic that we're saying that they are the ones being uh leading this theocracy, and we're starting to play with theocracy here in the states. Um, do you remember this uh from this was a while back? I think this was during um Trump's first run for president. Uh, this is Paula White, his uh um spiritual advisor. She she went on this uh this um rant of this this sermon saying this.

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And strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike until you have victory for every enemy that is aligned against you. Let there be that we would strike the ground, for you will give us victory, God. I hear a sound of abundance of rain, I hear a sound of victory, I hear a sound of shouting and singing, I hear a sound of victory, I hear a sound of an abundance of rain, I hear a sound of victory, I hear a sound of an abundance of rain, I hear a sound of victory, the Lord says it is done, the Lord says it is done, the Lord says Okay, it's gotta stop.

What Is Armageddon Biblically

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Um bad, so bad. It's just her over and over and over saying, I hear the sound of rain, I hear the sound of rain, I hear the abundance of victory, I hear the abundance of victory, and she starts speaking in tongues and whatnot and doesn't translate those tongues, which we we would argue against, right? Um, and it's just this this belief that Trump is the the the man for the moment that God has raised up, that you know he is bringing in Armageddon. And so I want us to ask the question, what is Armageddon? Like, because I think if you're not in the um, if you did not grow up in this, or you maybe just read some uh left behind books or whatever it may be growing up, that might be a question that you go, like, is this like is there is there some legitimacy to this? Um but I I I just I I think it's important for us to think about already I've already said what I think the answer to that question was. Well, a a number of years ago, there was a a retired uh NASA engineer, um, guy named Edgar C. Wisnant. Uh, and he wrote this book famously called 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988. Did you ever read that book, Malcolm? No. Oh, come on. That's so good.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Um I hope everybody can hear that there's just gonna be a constant exasperation in my voice as we have this conversation because I've already expressed how much I care. Malcolm loves how much we should care about this.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

He loves it because this was what he grew up reading these books. Uh I did.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

I love Left Behind. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Uh great stuff. Uh Withernut said, Only if the Bible is in error am I wrong. And I say that to every preacher in town. I would stake my life on Rosh Hashanah 1998, uh, the Jewish New Year, as the day that Jesus was coming back. So that was his prediction.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

Sounds like brother should be dead then.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Right? He says, Only if the Bible is in error, am I wrong? How many times do we have people in our midst who are so certain of their belief that they would say, only if the Bible is in error, am I wrong? I mean, that could be said across so many things. Like, this is the whole uh inerrancy uh debate of saying, like, is the Bible inerrant? And we're like, well, I believe the Bible is true and right. I just question you saying that you're your interpretation's inerrant.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Um this is what happens when people but also this is what happens when people think that the when people think that their own idiosyncratic interpretations of the Bible are in any way authoritative. This is what happens when people sever themselves from the history of the church, from the from the from the tradition of God's people. People start saying dumb stuff. Yeah. And then and then staking the staking their lives on their idiosyncratic interpretation of scripture. It's just dumb, Slim.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Well, he he did not learn from his ways. So he made that book in night, you know, predicting in 1988 that would happen. Obviously, that did not happen. Um, he later predicted that it would happen in 1989. He was off by a year. It was kind of a mathematical error. Um then when that didn't happen, he predicted 1993. Um, and then when that did not happen, he predicted 1994. And so um his later books. Yeah, his later books sales did not match the first one.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

I'm sure.

Revelation’s Genre And Imagery

SPEAKER_02 19:32

So like this is not new territory for people to predict the end times. It happens all the time. Um but when he's bringing when they're bringing up Armageddon, here's what you know they're they're they're referring to. That we're they're they're talking about the book of Revelation, uh, and I believe it's uh 11. Revelation chapter 11, um, verse 16. Let's pull that up. Revelation 11. 16. No. No, not there. Where are we at? Where are we at? Slim, you're doing this live. Revelation 16, 16. 16, 16. That's what I said. That's what I said. Revelation 16, 16. We'll read a little bit of uh context there. Um verse 12. The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and in his water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the east, and then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs that came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them for battle on the great day of God Almighty. Look, I I come like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed so as not to go naked and shamefully exposed. Then they gathered the kings together to the place that is in Hebrew called Armageddon. So this is uh this is a part of the um scriptures and part of the rev book of Revelation, which we did a whole series on. And so after hearing this um this citation that Trump is bringing about Armageddon, my immediate response was, you know, should we preach the book of Revelation all over again? Um and so this is in the seven bowls of of God's wrath here. Um and I mean there's just so much to say about as you as you try to interpret the book of Revelation, but as as we try to make clear that there is um there's many different uh literary genres in the scriptures. There's there's historical, there's poetic, um, there's these letters, um, right? There's there's just different genres. And one of the j the genre for revelation is is apocalyptic. Uh, and that's the you know, revelation is the word apocalypse, which means the to reveal. Um, and it's uh the first couple chapters are written to these churches, and it's so it sounds a little more understandable. Um, it's kind of almost more of a letter format, and then it goes into this very uh apocalyptic. genre which feels like Paul or John is painting with a paintbrush, trying to make these images of what's happening. Um but he's almost every single image he cites um is going back to the Old Testament. So he's doing a lot of callbacks. Um and so in this bowl uh in in verse 16 it says they gather together the the kings together to the place in Hebrew is called uh Armageddon now Armageddon is not the um you know the Bruce Willis taking the astronauts to space uh to blow up a comet which did you see that movie Malcolm that that that's pretty that's a good movie yeah right I did not oh what oh that was very uh late late 90s early 2000s uh aerosmith singing was Liv Tyler in the and so Aerosmith I don't want to close my eyes I don't want to fall asleep because I miss you babe which is kind of weird uh with you know it's about his daughter not really but he's not singing about his daughter anyways uh important to the conversation um uh but Armageddon is two words it's uh it's the word mountain or mount and Megiddo right arm uh is we're for um mountain and then Megiddo um is the word you know there um so mount megiddo and it's it's harking back to Judges four and five um when Israel is is getting taken advantage um of King Jabin the Canaanite is the oppressor uh his general Sisera hasn't is got 90 900 chariots strong uh Israel doesn't even have a spear or a shield and this is the moment where Deborah tells Barak the judge says go this is the day that the Lord has given Sisera into your hands has not the Lord Lord gone ahead of you and this battle is fought uh at no other place than Mount Megiddo and God's enemy is routed that God uh the the Canaanites are routed they're they're annihilated and it was Yahweh himself who defeated them and so this Mount Megiddo becomes this symbol um for every battle in for Israel when the need is greatest and it looks like there is no hope the Lord suddenly reveals his power so this is like we you have to go back in time to kind of go what is it what's happening what's what's John doing here um but now it's been taken that Armageddon is now this this almost um mystical term that's like ushering in the end times because of what's happening in uh revelation here with the the the bowls um of wrath but I I just I want to hear I would love to kind of sit down with um a Doug Wilson um a post-millennial who takes these things and says this this relates to this and this is happening this way because that's where Doug Wilson's uh theology has um he was a past pastor of church and you know um theologian um that I disagree with on a lot of things um has influenced Pete Heggseth our secretary of war um and his view of you know uh America's spot in history and bringing about the end times and things like this. Um and so I would just love to hear how they would respond kind of you know this is the the bowls of wrath are being poured out here and they're you if they're thinking like this is the end of the world Armageddon um the way revelation happens is these terrible things build up to a point and then all of a sudden it's not the end of times it's it's all of because all of this is imagery. It's it's trying to convey something here.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Anything else I I've missed here Malcolm that you as as you're thinking about this on Armageddon no just that just that uh I I think I don't know why this is not like this is fundamentally not an argument about scriptural interpretation. Um the the issue is and and one of the reasons why I think people have constantly tried to turn this into a book of prediction or whatever um is because people don't know how to suffer. I think it's fundamentally what it comes down to because it that because what it what all of this wanting to usher in the kingdom of God whatever all this is because you it people have not deeply internalized that your life on this earth is a life of the cross period and so and so because that hasn't been internalized people are like well how do I make this suffering stop quicker um as opposed to thinking no like this like actually our suffering is the means by which the Lord shapes us in Christlieness. But you know when especially when you get into the the halls of power and all this kind of stuff you you you you you start to build an ideology of uh of winning and you're like well I want to win and the best way to win is to have God on your side and so there are ways there are ways that I can narrate my big decisions by saying well God is on our side there's nothing nothing better than drawing drawing the lines of battle cosmically and you know and that's and that's what that's what people are doing with the language of Armageddon and all that kind of stuff. There was a who was I talking to um I was talking to uh uh mica emerson about one of these about there's like one of these movies like one of these like Christian end time movies where like it ends with like uh the president of the United States like shooting Satan in the chest and that'll do it just two slugs in the chest just like it's like this message that like yeah like yeah the Lord's gonna do it but also like USA um team America world police it's like it's but like it's that kind of it's that it's that kind of thing. I mean what was so what was so uh you know what I enjoyed about the when I read all the like there are like 50 or at least 40 um kids book books of the left behind series yeah I read all of them I'm pretty sure I read all of them uh at least 30 of them um and uh but like it's it's epic because Revelation is like an epic it's an epic book I mean it's a cosmic battle between good and evil like it's just like and there and and and and there's a and there's a part of us that like just really wants to be caught up in that epic and cosmic story or whatever. And and I think people think that you know that that the real battle is a G like is a geopolitical one. When no actually the battle is being waged over like your soul. Like the the war that you're the war that you ought to be concerned with is the war that you and your soul are fighting against the passions. Like that's what that's the war that you need to be involved in. Because the fact of the matter is is that um as I keep telling the church Christlikeness is all that is all that is all that matters. And the fact the matter is is that uh you got enough to deal with with pride, anger lust envy gluttony greed and slaw um that's that's what you need to be that's what you and I need to be worried about so that when we so that when the Lord does return we are we are found uh doing the work that he has called us to do.

Suffering, Power, And End-Times Hype

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Yeah yeah yeah that's all I got like I mean the you you said this a little bit earlier um in in in conversations about this like is this a part of what might become the the end times well I think it's actually clear you know that Jesus talking to his disciples are like saying like you are in the end times now like that like Yeah we're already in them that it's a it's a uh we've been in them for two thousand years a state uh post christ's death and resurrection that like this it this new state is the the end era the epoch um of end times and people want to see it as more like well things are going to get worse and worse and worse and and there there might be some of that like there might be you know wars and rumors of wars but that's what Jesus tells them uh in Matthew 24 he says you will hear of wars and rumors of wars see that you are not alarmed all of these are but the beginning of birth pains um and as you you said earlier uh this is also Matthew 24 he says but concerning that day and hour no one knows not even the angels of heaven nor the son of um uh nor the son but the father only like jesus said not the son doesn't know when he's returning so if jesus himself doesn't know when he's returning how are we so like have the gall to say like no this is going to bring about the end times this is this is I will I will usher this in when Jesus doesn't even know the end like it's why this is why I said this is why I said this is ultimately not a bat like it's not a battle of of biblical interpretation.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Yeah what it is is just a what it is is is a um I mean it's just it's an alternative account of power um and and and the I mean the scriptures are just a the scriptures are a tool the scriptures are not something that people are submitted to the scriptures are a tool.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Yeah yeah um so yeah you're so you're using scripture to to baptize to what you you've done out of for whatever reason if it was for oil if it was because um Netanyahu said hey we need to do this and for some reason we said how hi um and we we jumped in um again that none of this could you know no none of us are arguing that uh the Iran dictator was uh was a good person um and and right but uh this is this is goes into like if we put scripture on stuff and we say no like this is gonna bring the end time so if God told me to do this this is how it can be dangerous to you say no God's blessing Trump to do this and then Trump you know finds ways to to cover up the Epstein files and you're like well like it it almost feels like it's self-perpetuating when you say like I I can't see the truth because of this he's this Christlike figure. I I can't have something that's going to contradict that. If if he's doing this then it must be right. If he's leading uh the charge to um bomb Iran that might get us into some huge war that you know whether it's a you know regional war with 15 countries or whether it's a world war um that spirals out of control regardless of price of oil and things like this like it's it's so it's so wild. I got like that there's all obviously there's those geopolitical decisions that people make that who are we to to talk about but the fact that you're gonna say that this is something that that Christ is baptizing I think that is the part that it just it's so offensive that I just want to use the Will Smith line of like keep God's name out of your mouth like please stop doing that. Because if your theology is going to justify you know bombing nations bombing a school with what was it 300 kids in it? There were a lot of children yeah like to say no God said to do this. And it and all the while we're ignoring Jesus's command to love and protect and care for the most vulnerable the the the immigrant the the the foreigner the the the most vulnerable in our midst like that is not Christianity like keep his name out of your mouth like please Pete Hague set please I feel like Trump has kind of given up trying to have the the image of being the the Christian where at one point he was like yeah I don't know I'm I'm probably not going to heaven you're like I hope and pray that's not true for your sake and you want redemption and something reaches you but this is the danger of power this is the danger of money that's just gonna in you know um in encompass him to say like he doesn't need anything he doesn't need Jesus he doesn't need these other things so I don't know yeah I don't think this is bringing about the end times I don't think as you said you began with Malcolm I don't think we can bring about the end times it's not a it's not a thing. It's not a thing that we can do um but also I think as we we think about ways that we want to push back on bad theology because that bad theology does harm people and it's it if you are going to um say that this is um baptized by uh our religion then who are we to argue against Iran baptizing their their works based on their religion um I this is like the ultimate argument to to have the separation of of of the church and state here it because it's just it whenever the church and state you know get together everyone loses and the the the church loses we lose our witness we lose the ability to actually critique power we lose um obviously our our way and our focus on what Armageddon's not the mountain we should focus on Calvary is the mountain we should focus on when God's not bombing people he's dying for people like come on come on yeah man yeah man uh like I said I mean it's it's uh it's the logic of it's the logic of uh of Rome and the logic of empire and uh we just we operate by a different logic we think we can take Rome and and and harness it for good we don't want it like that's the thing I don't want it the fact that people want it already already means that you have failed to you have you you have failed to actually see Christ and actually understand the gospel that's what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

If you look at that if you look at wealth as something that you gotta that you want to chase after or political power or cultural influence or whatever if those are the things that you're chasing after you have failed to see you have failed to see the good news of the gospel. Yeah that's what book two is going to be about I love it.

The Real Battle Of The Soul

SPEAKER_02 36:25

I love it. Well I I I on one level I kind of agree with Rubio here um let's not be led by radical clerics on either side um let's uh let's divorce those things not baptize this uh the things that our government's doing in the name of Jesus um and so it's one thing to vote that way it's another thing to uh say this is uh what Jesus would do here um and so today is the day after uh Texas uh election um and so we had some news here that Texas uh uh Senate primary has gotten interesting where we have Republicans are gonna have a runoff and Democrats gonna have James Talarico as their uh their candidate um Talarico is an interesting character uh person um I would love uh I'm putting it out there I would love for us to interview him you think he'd come on I know he went on Joe Rogan but like our podcast is like right below Joe Rogan um and uh he he I think he persuaded Rogan which was interesting um but I would love to hear his thoughts theologically not on political stuff but he's got some stuff where he's tied his his uh political stances to the theology and there's some things I'll disagree with him on um but I would love to hear kind of his articulation of those things um but I think that that that that seems to be a a big big news um in Texas that there were um there's more Democratic uh voters in the primary than there were Republicans which is just wild to think about Texas in this way but I think that's ultimately good for our our world um I mean as you and I both know they're all part of the same um empire and so uh Malcolm and I had a chance to to meet with Talerico uh via Zoom a while back and he didn't you write in the book you you gave him your book you're like uh get out of politics or something I didn't say I didn't say get out of politics just the question I you know just the broader question I have is is uh you know how how how will you how will you attempt to keep that space uh keep that space from corrupting you because a lot of people you know I think I think a lot of people are really optimistic about the kinds of about the kinds of change that you'll be able to yeah that you'll be able to um uh uh invest in so like this is this is a this is a this is a not a fight but uh I think a disagreement that me and uh Esau had on his on his podcast because I think his account of America is Martin is Martin Luther King's account of America and mine is Malcolm X's account of America um in the sense summarize that summarize that in well in the sense that King King is like well you know I we just we just need to remind America of its of its commitments to liberty and justice and stuff and like kind of get us to live up to that standard that we set for ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Yeah um and Malcolm and others are just like no like this thing is corrupt from the beginning like this it's not gonna happen. So I mean you could you could try to tweak it all you want but the fact of the matter is is that if you if you actually want it to be just it's gonna have to be something like it's gonna have to be something else. And so uh and which which which for me is just like yeah like I'm I I have no expectation that the kingdoms of the world will do the awesome things. Like they they might maybe but like I'm not there is very little of my kind of emotional and spiritual life that's bound up in whether America's gonna do the right thing. I imagine in the first few centuries of the church there was there wasn't a whole lot of emotional energy thinking about oh look at this is is Rome gonna make the right moral decision no like we're wrong will will the Caesar do it or not will it I but but there's this but there's this expectation particularly that we have in this country and this even the people who don't claim to be Christian nationalists there's this there's this expectation that our nation will do the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

But Malcolm we have we have voting we we have the power like we have it's a different setup.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

This is what Skye this is and this is yeah this is an argument that Sky Titani was making at a conference that we were speaking at last weekend because he's like you know we we yeah we have to be reminded that according to the constitution like we're we're the rulers of this of this of this country and stuff like that. I was like I mean like that's that's nice but like you you elected this country elected somebody who does not care about those rules yeah and is and is currently doing and and and and and you've elected you don't you don't determine foreign policy that person does and so and so the fact like the fact of the matter is as much as we may say that we the people are the ones who are in charge you know it's it's so I don't know Malcolm I I agree that we are uh I agree that the the the way that way it is is that way but I don't know if it's the way it has to be it's if we had a um a a Congress that was alive I I thought it was funny uh someone said I wish Congress was uh I hope Congress uh wasn't alive to hear about this uh this war uh or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

In fact that they they they never respond to anything they they never vote uh because the president hasn't asked for uh permission to do this.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Um the Ben Sass has said that uh for years that the one of the main issues is legislative underreach.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Yeah. And so I think if if we had a a if the system was working the way it was intended, I think yes, that we have that vote. We have that vote on something as as big as um um uh foreign affairs and things like that but it's not currently because the president's president uh gets to do whatever he wants to do um but doesn't mean we can't like today I I I was on a call uh with uh uh representatives from um John Cornyn's office um pleading with them to can reconsider ways to to be more humane uh uh for uh immigration uh treatment and things like that. And they were very um receptive uh so good good on them. Um and we were asking them to consider the the the the dignity act as ways to to make some change. And so I think some of the I'm like yeah let's let's fight for what we can within the system we have. Doesn't mean it's great but I'm like Yeah it's empire's still gonna empire. Um they're still gonna like go after greed and what's what's ultimately good for them but as much as you can how to you know like let's let's let's make that change that impact I think for this is I think my new political theology I think in I think uh we need to be a people uh who focus on uh doing the right thing so like you need to I disagree with that wholeheartedly to build people but like okay like I know you want to see if you can convince the state to protect particular people.

Scripture As Tool Vs Submission

SPEAKER_03 43:45

You need to build communities that are going to protect those people. And then if you if your community does look like that, okay then that'll also give you the credibility to then to then extend that beyond beyond your community. But if you haven't done the work if you haven't done the work within your community of building a community that actually bears witness to that then you're just somebody you're just somebody in an office making making arguments you we we we have to be uh the the the uh one of the issues is that uh for a number of our church communities we've lost the more we've lost the moral credibility uh to be to be a to be a public to be a public voice and so and so and so my thing is look your first priority uh is building a community that bears witness to the that bears witness to the kingdom of God yeah because that's something that you can actually that's something that you can actually do and it's something that you're gonna be held accountable for you're not gonna be held accountable for whether or not you called your senator about an about an unjust law you are gonna be you are you are gonna be held accountable for whether you lived according to the law of Christ like that's like that's that and so and so like so if you if if if the Lord has placed you in circumstances where you have you know where you have that kind of where you have that kind of influence and stuff like that then like yeah like you have a responsibility to use it for the sake of justice. But I think that for people to add on top of what is already a significant like you there there are significant things that you're that you're responsible for to add um you know to add the quote unquote direction of a nation to that is just like it's not it's just not it's just not my concern it's just not um and so like it because because especially um yeah I mean like I said our our one of one of our issues I said is that I think we've we've lost we've lost a significant amount of moral credibility because um because people have been bent on building their own building their own empires or um the kind of compromise that uh the church at Laodicea did in in in Revelation 3 where they're just like well in order for us to get along here are the here are the compromises we need to make uh and I want us to be the kind of people that can seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and then and then we can focus then we can do the other stuff.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

When we have sufficiently like when when I feel like the church has sufficiently been seeking the kingdom of God and his righteousness then we can start having some of these other conversations. I need I need us to keep the first things first.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Yeah that's all that's good. This this conversation makes me think about one of the things we were talking about with uh this um immigrant uh immigration um ministry uh team that we've we've kind of um created here within the church um you know we're talking about the question like you know how do we start this you know type of program um you know how do we you know serve immigr you know immigrants in our city well um and well early on someone said like hey you know let's pause let's not just go like how do we start a program let's let's ask how do we become present and you know listen to to the immigrants in our community and so then we're talking about that and then we're thinking about that and I just I think the the main idea is kind of like let's not go find immigrants to serve. Let's let's become the kind of church that immigrants would trust. Um you know that they would go like that's where I want to be and then in those trusting relationships in that in that you actually find ways to come alongside and to serve. Um at the same time I do still think I'm like this this I want to I want to uh reach on a compassion level um to to immigrants but also I I still have like this like this justice angle of like I'll you know reframing the narrative around immigration and it may not be to other it may not be to the state but it might be to other churches. Uh it might be as a way to um for us to not see our foreign you know the foreigner um as um as evil as as as um someone coming to to take their jobs or to you know take from them but as a a blessing. And then that's what that's where it's like I want to help reframe it to go like man we have so much to learn. And every time you you do meet someone um from different than your community outside and it doesn't look like you there's like oh there's so much that I'm missed it missing out on. And so hopefully we can do that. Well Malcolm what a what a what a yes what a fun time my dear dear brother well I I think this is a good place to stop. I think uh next week we can we can say like well if if if not capitalism what about socialism will that save us um oh boy can can Christianity and socialism exist? I know you have some some haters out there that would argue you've lost the faith because of this yeah it's kind of it's kind of funny that happened um and then uh I'll let y'all know uh when we uh hear from uh the talerico team if you'll be willing to come on we'll see i i mean we literally just got an email from them a few minutes ago so seriously there you go there you go like I said best friends also we are not endorsing anyone that's five just apologizing let's be clear let's be clear all right well hey if you found any of this uh helpful would you give it a rating a review would you share it with uh a friend uh even if it's the shares to say can you believe these guys come on Armageddon's happening now