Welcome And Unfiltered Banter

SPEAKER_05 0:27

Hey, hey, hey, hey! Hey yo. Welcome to Theology in Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we your host, Slim Ann. Malcolm. And today, we're going to say tax the rich.

SPEAKER_06 0:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

And talk about something that uh Malcolm's uh ready to come out of the closet with.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 0:49

Something about capitalism and his favorite political economy. Are we talking about capitalism today? No, we're talking about socialism. Oh.

unknown 0:58

Well.

SPEAKER_05 1:00

I wanted to I wanted to. We're talking about, hold on, socialism.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Oh, oh, okay. Now, this is a super professional show. We're talking about socialism.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

Yeah. Okay. Alright. Should we cut or just keep it? It's it now.

Oscars Talk And Culture Notes

SPEAKER_05 1:18

Uh that that's that's that you if you're if you've uh listened to the show for any uh number of time now, you know we're just gonna keep it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Uh we're just gonna keep it.

SPEAKER_05 1:28

We are not trying to be super professional in this. Want this to be a little more natural. Like you're you're sitting with us in the uh the the headquarters of Theology and Pieces here in Waco, Texas. Uh you know, this this this podcast goes globally worldwide. And so we might talk about some global things, but before we talk about some global things, Malcolm, let's bring it back to the most important news. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Who were you rooting for?

SPEAKER_02 1:54

For what? What should I be rooting?

SPEAKER_03 1:56

At the Oscars.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Uh uh Sinners. Sinners for everything.

SPEAKER_05 2:00

Sinners and Sinners did well. They did. Sinners did well. They got the best uh um uh cinematography and the first woman ever to win that. Yeah, and ooh, Michael B. Jordan earned it. Michael B, baby. With his dual role of Smoke and Stack, which was such a such a crazy role um to do two different twins in this movie. It was so cool. So it's great. What did you think? Did you have did you also see um um one battle after another?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Sure didn't. Uh sure didn't. You are you against it? Are you right now? No, I mean, but there's a there's a lot of there's a there's a lot of controversy, there's a lot of controversy in the black community about it. Yeah. So but that's its own. Yeah. It's its own thing.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

Yeah. Uh it's uh it's a pretty intense movie. It's pretty intense.

SPEAKER_04 2:47

Chris and I saw it.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Maybe I'll see it at some point. Maybe we'll see.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

I think it's good. Uh, but yeah, the the I I I I hear the I hear the the black community's uh qualms, but just like every uh every uh movie, every uh story, you're like, this isn't the perfect character.

SPEAKER_05 3:04

Uh so these are less than perfect characters uh in the these movies. Uh but um well yeah, no, I I I I I enjoyed that. I didn't watch any of that, but it was it was fun to see. Uh also did you see that the uh the actress from um uh what was that? Not sinners, but uh weapons uh won best uh yeah best of warning actress, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

The creepy old lady.

Malcolm’s Tour And Upcoming Dates

SPEAKER_05 3:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah, that's pretty cool. So um, but that those are less than important things. Malcolm, you you have not just have had, but you're continuing to have maybe the most ridiculous week ever. Um because Monday, where were where were you? What were you doing Monday, Mr.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

I was in Chicago on Monday, beginning my uh nationwide multi-city tour with Show Baraka uh for his for his new album. Um we are doing we're doing some shows. Uh I mean, so so uh Chicago was the first one. We'll do some other cities over the course of the next few months. Uh, but he's he's doing music. I'm doing some kind of lectures around the book, we're doing some scenes together. It's a whole it's a whole experience. We do a game show together. There's a lot of audience. There's a whole there's a lot of audience participation. Uh yeah, it's a good time. So also, if if you are in a city that you would like us to come to, uh you can reach out and maybe we'll be able to maybe we'll be able to come through. Um, but yeah, so our first show is Monday in Chicago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:33

How was that? It was a good time.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Yeah. It was a good time.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

Uh that's that's pretty sweet. Uh I I I just keep picturing Malcolm grabbing the mic while show is up there on stage.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

I was not hype manning, uh nor was I rapping. Uh but I was doing uh, you know, included might have been uh dramatic reading of uh Basel's Sermon to the Rich. It's you know, there's a lot, there's there's there's a few things. Did you make the album? Few things, few things going. No, no, no, no, no. No. I mean, well, I mean, because the album's already out. But yeah, yeah, yeah. But um That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_05 5:07

Um so what's the next city? Is it possibly Waco?

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Uh next one's probably probably Waco next next month.

SPEAKER_05 5:13

So we'll uh we'll keep everybody apprised. Do we need a uh drum roll for this? Are you about to are you about to re reveal something? I mean a date.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

No, I'll reveal.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

I'll all all that will be revealed likely in the next few weeks. So stay just just you know all right. Just just listen up. Because also when tickets when tickets do do go up, there will likely be a limited number of tickets. So nice. So get in while the getting's good. When the getting starts.

SPEAKER_05 5:45

And the getting is good.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

I don't know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

I don't know what you're saying either. But yeah, and then and then I literally today go into the airport for a I have a work conference, and then and that's in Kansas City, and then I'll be in uh then I'll be in North Carolina to speak to some Methodists about the book. Um so yeah, just as just uh crazy. I can't believe this is your week. Crazy week. Crazy, crazy week.

Empire News And Doctrine Of Discovery

SPEAKER_04 6:12

Shout up. Prayers for his wife and family. They'll be fine.

SPEAKER_05 6:17

They'll be fine. That's great.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

That's great.

unknown 6:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:21

Um well, um, other than that, other things going on in the world. Um our uh other things going on in the world. Our gas prices are going are going well. World War III. Um how's how's that how's that treating you? Are you you excited about this? Are you are you are you? I know we talked about Armageddon last time. We're not we're not we're not gonna talk about the Armageddon angle. Had the had the Iran had the had the war technically started when we had our last the war still hasn't started because it's still an excursion.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Oh right, because it's not a war yet.

SPEAKER_05 6:50

But yes, yes. Remember uh our last podcast, uh, we we talked about how um it's been d described as uh in in bringing about Armageddon to the true to from military commanders to troops.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:04

But oh no, I yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Okay, that's right. Oh boy. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:11

So it's it's gonna get worse before it gets better, so and then uh we're taking Cuba because we look at us, we can just do that, and that's not theft.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Uh it's just empire. Well, theft, look, the language of theft left geopolitics with uh with the um Dominican Republic, America, America in general. The um oh gosh, I'll I'll remember what the decree was called in like 10 minutes. But anyway. Um doctrine of doctrine of discovery. That's doctrine of discovery. That's that's when theft left the chat.

SPEAKER_05 7:47

That sounds like a good thing. Doctrine of Discovery. What is the doctrine of discovery? Back in the 15th century. Back in the 15th century, the legal principle authorizing Christian explorers to claim non-Christian lands, justifying colonization, slavery, and land seizure. All right. Yep, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yep, yep. Yeah, we see it. It's ours. Oh, okay. So we're not calling this theft. Okay. I mean, I okay.

SPEAKER_05 8:14

The doctrine of discovery sounds so innocent. Right. And then you think about it. You're like, I discovered this.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Uh so it's mine.

SPEAKER_05 8:22

Gimme.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Regardless of whether people are actually there. I just like it's it's it's the it's think of it as the geopolitical parallel to name and claim it theology.

SPEAKER_04 8:36

That shirt. I want your shirt. Take it off. That's mine.

SPEAKER_05 8:42

Oh, that makes me think of uh we're watching uh the the British uh BBC version of Sherlock with our kids now.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

We're like, all right, I think he might be old enough for this, and sometimes maybe not, but y'all can judge me later.

SPEAKER_05 8:55

Um but they're uh on whatever season there, there's uh there's this bad, really you know, evil dude who just like he controls the government, he has all these like background, like all these blackmail things on every single person. Yeah, but he just goes into these rooms and he just like he like licks people's like coffee mugs and like you know breaks their stuff and he's like, This is mine. Well, and they're like, Why'd you come to our house? And he's like, my house. It's just like and because he owns people, he basically lives as if he owns it all.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Oh, it's it's wrong. But that's cool.

Remembering John Perkins’ Legacy

SPEAKER_02 9:27

We're we're that guy right now. It's probably how Jeffrey Epstein treated people too, because of because of because of his blackmailing. Anyway, yeah, uh anyway.

SPEAKER_05 9:35

Can I can I give you one more bit of sad news, um, not related to any of that.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Um what is this podcast if not sad news?

SPEAKER_05 9:43

Uh well this one's just this one hit hit hit hit home. Um this past week, John Perkins passed away. Yeah. Um and goodness gracious, he's civil rights leader, um, marched with Martin Luther King Jr. Um and he just he just embodied the the love of Christ in such beautiful, beautiful ways. Um if you don't know his story, you know, he grew up in Mississippi, um was was was beaten to you know inches of his life, uh moves away to California. Um his child was going to church, becomes a Christian, and then he becomes a Christian and he feels compelled to come go back to the community that uh hurt him and beat him and starts this Christian community development um movement in the area to love the community, to love your neighbors and love even the people that hate you. Um and just the love of Christ just oozing from this man, um, and just so grateful for his his leadership and uh the many, many uh ways that we won't be able to quantify his impact. And so just thankful for him, sad that we are we are robbed of him, and he he he was in his 90s, so it it was coming. Um but it was also you know thankful um that he's in the arms of his savior and he's not he is surely not uh missing some of this at all. Uh but grateful. Read read some of his books, he's got some great stuff um out there. Um all right. I think it's time. I think it's time, Malcolm. What time is it, Slim?

SPEAKER_03 11:16

That's the worst transition. What time is it?

SPEAKER_04 11:21

I am on fire with the transition. Clearly. I cannot find my stuff today. We'll go with that.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Alright. We're gonna begin with just some outside noise. You ready? Okay. Let's see if I can hear it.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

What do you think about Marxism?

unknown 11:52

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Obviously, you're gonna call me a Marxist. Um, and obviously. You have some complimentary things to say about Karl Marx. Oh yeah! Sounds pretty communist to me. Well, hey, look, look. And I I and I say this in the book too, because I love, I mean, I I I am a I am a Christian socialist.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Oh, I know, I know, I know you just said it.

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Malcolm.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 12:21

Uh-huh. What the heck?

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Christianity and capitalism go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Well, they do, do they?

SPEAKER_05 12:29

It's the Protestant work ethic.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Is that right?

SPEAKER_05 12:32

Haven't you heard the phrase? That is that capitalism produces that Protestant work ethic. So I just want to begin with the the typical questions. Who do you think you are?

SPEAKER_04 12:46

And not who do you think I am? But what the heck?

SPEAKER_05 12:51

Uh, so this is uh this some of that the that sound bite clips are coming from uh uh Thaddeus Williams, uh, who uh Malcolm had debated, uh which is I wasn't prepared for a debate.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

I thought we were having a we were just gonna talk about social justice, and we ended up talking about my books.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

Yeah. And this guy is uh it seems like that's like his thing. He's he's more of a uh a debater apologetics apologetics guy. Um but um two years ago at the uh exiles uh in Babylon conference, um Preston Sprinkles thing, you know, Theology in the Raw. Um and so Malcolm went out. Uh I went to it and I was not prepared. Like I know you weren't prepared. Yeah, we can go.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

We can we can process this on the we can process this on the air from your experience. What you saw and what you heard.

SPEAKER_05 13:35

I think I said this maybe whatever we responded afterwards, but like the first part was just like shock that I think you get I can't remember you can tell me what it was, but I think you get like 30 minutes to to kind of begin your part, and then the other person gets 30 minutes, and then you guys sit down and you have a you know conversation back and forth. Um, and I would say of his 30 minutes, he spent 20 minutes just just glazing you, like just like I was just like, dude, make your arguments or whatnot. Like it was just constant, like how much he loves you, which again, uh with how uh you know polarizing and terrible the world is. I I am thankful. And even in his uh YouTube video that he writes, he does after this, um, he does like I don't want to straw man argument, Malcolm. Um, you know, and he and he encourages people to go buy your book. So like that was good.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Um yeah, buy the book if you if you haven't bought the book, uh continued. The anti-green gospel, how the love of money is the is the root of racism and how the and how the church can create a new way forward.

SPEAKER_04 14:32

There we go.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Also buy the second one when it comes out. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 14:38

We're uh leading into the anti-green part.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

We paid Malcolm millions for that promo. Anyways, so they have the uh so he yeah, he does that, and then he goes into his critiques of you.

SPEAKER_05 14:53

But his critiques of of your arguments, one, I was like feeling like as a you know, it's like you can insult me, but you don't insult my friend. And so I felt like I want to jump up on stage and punch the dude because he went from disagreeing with kind of the the topic in general, um, to it it he starts accusing you, and we'll talk about that here in a minute of of actual sin. Um and so I was like, oh crap, this guy's crossed the line. Um and so he did that in the debate, and then he writes then he has this video as a follow-up, kind of recapping the debate. Um, and he he says he doesn't make you a straw man, however, he he pulls clips and doesn't let you show your full response.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

He cuts you off mid mid uh quote in your clips in here that I'm like, okay, feels like a straw man.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yeah, it's just I mean, there are a lot of clips of me on podcasts referring to myself as a Christian socialist, yeah. And uh and thinking that Marx was right about a number of economic things.

SPEAKER_05 15:51

So which I well I want to get to. Um so we'll get to socialism stuff, but let's focus just on the the fatty swims because that was the uh impetus to kind of respond here. I was going like, man, we still have not uh had a response to this because he invites you to respond on these things. Um but the the the conference um debate or uh discussion was um I think the topic was is social gossip is is social justice a gospel issue? Right. Is that right? Um and you argued yes and he argued no. Yeah. Um and so one of his um arguments for it being no, um he says somewhere around this mark here.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

I think telling the truth, let's ask the question, is telling the truth essential to the Christian life? I would say yeah. That's not a divine suggestion, it's a divine command. So is telling the truth essential to being a Christian? I would say yes. Is it essential to the gospel, the good news of how sinners can be saved through the performance and perfection of Jesus? That's a completely different question. And we gotta keep law and gospel separate, or we compromise the best news in history or take adultery. Is uh being pro-adultery an option for a Christian? I would say no, we should be anti-adultery, we should be faithful to our spouses. I think that's an essential of Christian living, but is it essential to the gospel itself? No, the gospel is the good news of Jesus' finished work to save sinners like us. And I like we'll stop there.

What Counts As The Gospel

SPEAKER_05 17:35

Um so he may he goes on making you know kind of around the cotton is social justice, you know, is it uh essential to the Christian life? And he he he even says yes, but not a gospel issue. How do you respond to that? Because I thought that was a clearer um synopsis of his position than it was on the debate.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Yeah, we dealt we dealt with this uh in maybe it wasn't our last podcast, but it was a podcast before when we were talking about um um Michael Horton's article. Yeah. Um and how especially I think Protestants have uh created well and and especially folks from reform. I mean, this is this is like this is also I think in in many ways a super recent thing where when people use the language of gospel, they're referring to something that is less than the Christian life, basically.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Less than a Christian Christian life. Yeah. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_02 18:28

As in as in like when they when they refer to when they use the word gospel, they're referring to a very specific like they're like they're just referring to a very specific message. Um and so and and and I'm like I'm less concerned, I mean obviously I'm I'm I'm I'm uh very concerned with the gospel, but I'm less but I'm less concerned with drawing a really uh narrow uh understanding of it.

SPEAKER_05 18:55

Um yeah, his his uh his the definition this and I I agree. I think this comes down to uh in a sense that's the the reason we talk past one another on this is this definition of the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

And he said here adultery, we should be faithful to our spouses. I think that's an essential of Christian living, but is it essential to the gospel itself? No. The gospel is the good news of Jesus' finished work to save sinners' life.

SPEAKER_05 19:21

Yeah, so I didn't mind finish. But the gospel is the good news of Jesus' finished work to save sinners. I think he says like myself. Um so is that not a good definition of the gospel?

SPEAKER_02 19:32

So my favorite definition of the gospel um comes from Maximus the Confessor, surprised. Um and he says this in one of his Such a great name. If it oh I mean, I want to if I have a son, I want to name him Maximus. Yeah, um I think you should do it for a girl, too. I I mean call her Max.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Come on, short for Maximus, named after Maximus the Confessor. Oh, come on.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Uh he says this is this this it seems to me is the gospel of God that the incarnate son is God's ambassador and advocate for an and advocate for for humanity and has earned reconciliation to the Father for those who yield to him for the deification that is without origin. If if we for me, there are there are so many elements of that that you can expand upon. And one of the things, and and so I would bound, I I would bind what we understand as works into into that definition of what it is that Christ has, of what it is that Christ has not only earned for us, but also like works in and through us. I see all of that as part of what I mean when I'm talking about when I'm talking about the gospel. And so and so for so for example, to to to really you know to to part of it, and and and we and we said this, we said this a few weeks ago, like part of it is just uh being afraid to loop the importance of works into all of these conversations, which is which is something that especially as a result of the Reformation, like we were just scared of doing it because you because you think that any conversation I have about works means that I'm using those works in order to earn my salvation. Right. And so because of that, we're just like, well, let's just not let's just not talk about it at all. I mean, and maybe not even let's not talk about it at all, but let's talk about it as a secondary thing. And I'm like, no, you can make it primary without saying that it's that it's the means by which I earn I earn my salvation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:29

Um which was your point in the the talk on in the debate, uh, that you don't like when we say it's a necessary implication of the gospel. Yeah, meaning that you believe that social justice is naturally part of it. Yeah. Because it's it because that there's the truncated view of the gospel that it's Jesus' finished work on the on the cross, which we're like, amen, hallelujah. Let's let's let's talk about Jesus' finished work on the cross uh to save sinners. Yeah. But what does saving sinners mean? And that's where it's like, what what is what does that salvation actually mean? And that what it what was the good news to the poor? Why did he specifically say the poor and to to the to those in prison? Like it's actually good news. And so I would say this for me, uh how I might describe the gospel. It's uh the gospel is not just how to go to heaven when you die, but the good news that Jesus is the true King of the world and through him a new creation has begun. That's maybe a uh another way of saying what we're saying here is that yes, Jesus is the true King of the world um and through him a new creation. So he's saving us not just from sin to get to heaven, but he's saving us from the the all the things that are that are uh oppressing us in this world now. Yeah. And we could say Sin down from the devil. There you go. There you go. Uh so I think that that's part of the reason that there's this this um back and forth here.

SPEAKER_06 22:50

Yeah.

Why Capitalism Is A Moral System

SPEAKER_05 22:50

Um now I want to get to his kind of now moving into the conversation around capitalism, uh socialism, which I did not expect him to like that wasn't necessarily a debate, but that's where he wanted this either that's where he wanted to go with the conversation in the in the debate.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

But he make he makes this uh argument or this justification where more often than not the only way to get rich was by taking somebody else's pie. It was not a capitalist it was not a free market society and so there was an assumption that was safe to make then that if you're rich you got it by exploiting the poor that's not necessarily true today. In many cases tragically it is and we should fight that but it's not necessarily true today.

SPEAKER_05 23:37

What do you think of that argument that in in that Marx disagrees and I disagree as well. A agrarian society um when when he Jesus and others are condemning the rich because they got rich through taking from the poor that is not an apples to apples argument for today.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Yeah yeah yeah how would you argue against that um I would say in a as a while at a small at a micro level you may be able to justify it at a macro level at a macro level you can't so this goes back to what we when we understand capitalism what are we talking about um and we're talking about the confluence I I feel like I've talked about this before but I'll I'll do it I'll do it here the it's the confluence of of these three factors there's the presence there's the presence of a market the there's there's the private ownership of the means of of the means of production and uh and wage labor. And and viewed in and of themselves like none of those things appear to be evil um but when you trace them back when you trace them back to why they exist and the and the manner in which they exist you you begin to see the evil. So for example private ownership of the means of production the the the reason why society moves towards this private ownership that that that we now know um comes as a result of theft and this is what Marx calls uh primitive accumulation that is the only way for um the the the only way for kind of a lot of especially land and you and you and you can think about this uh with this country and the way that and the way that land originally functioned um people got that land by stealing it when even when we think about what even when we think about wage labor we live in an economy where you do not sur like you don't survive if you're not if you're not engaged in wage in wage labor. And so um unless you're unless you're an entrepreneur and all that and all that kind of stuff but often that requires a significant amount of startup capital and things and things like that, which often people you know get from their parents and stuff. So it's just kind of the passing on of wealth. But um but when when when the you know when the stakes are you either engage in this particular economy or you die like that like that that's those are those are moral those are also moral categories I think. Yeah. Also to have also to have an economy that is driven specifically by the profit motive specifically by the need to grow and where where where if you don't grow you die that that growth happens by means of consumption. So the consumption of people and the consumption of natural resources. And so um and the fact like those that's not good and it's also not sustain like it's also not sustainable. If the only thing that drives us forward in this economy is specifically the desire to get rich, we are being driven by what is fundamentally a sinful impulse. And and so and so my thing is like so even the way I talk about myself as a Christian socialist it it's I'm more I think I it it's I'm pretty clearly um anti-capitalist in the in the in the broad sense because of what because of what that system represents uh and what's necessary to keep it going. But I'm not like I'm also not saying hey I'm pressing for a um I'm pressing for this specific different global political economy because the fact of the matter is that we as people are greedy and we will find ways to use whatever system we produce in order to you know in order to dominate and and exploit each other.

SPEAKER_07 27:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Even the way that I frame it in the book like my goal is not I'm not making suggestions to politicians about what economy to whatever. Like I I want the church to remember that actually we as the people of God have an opportunity to bear witness to a different kind of political economy, a different different account of money, a different account of of of power um because the one that we see in the world specifically neoliberal racialized and financialized capitalism um it's just killing people um well specifically the poor I mean there are I mean there are there are folks who are getting ridiculously rich off of it. Yeah um and people use that possibility as a justification of the system.

Wealth Inequality And Tax The Rich

SPEAKER_05 28:06

Yeah I'm I'm gonna veer from the the the video with him for for now um to just go on off on this conversation now on on um capitalism versus socialism. Like and just like basic ground rule um we don't believe that the Bible prescribes um and either because the Bible does not have didn't have that modern economic system there. And so uh it does give a clear moral vision about wealth, power, generosity um and so it forces us as Christians to to wrestle with these things and say what is the best way. But I think just some fair facts right now that um the top one percent of the world controls nearly half of the world's wealth. You've you may have heard this before um while the majority own almost nothing. Over half the global population shares about one percent of the wealth. So you have one percent owning half the wealth and one percent sharing uh over half of the the population sharing one percent of the wealth like it it's it's so messed up here. The global economy is it's shaped like a a steep pyramid where a small group at the top holds all the wealth while billions at the bottom share very little. To be clear I think let's see if this may be uh outdated information but three people maybe four now with Elon Musk in the United States have more wealth than over half of all Americans.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Three three maybe four people hold over more wealth than half of all Americans and here's the other thing like this wouldn't I mean it would still it would still be a significant problem but it would be less of a problem if everyone had everything that they need. Yeah and there were just some people who had much more than like then then then that like I mean it would be a different kind of issue. It would still be a problem. But the fact of the matter is is that there are there are many who have just egregious amounts of wealth and then there are others who starve and don't have access to don't don't have access to good health healthcare don't have access to housing all those all those kinds of things um because it's being hoarded because it's being actively hoarded yeah I think uh to to give you an idea of how much that greedy like just it's hard to get our minds wrapped around that.

SPEAKER_05 30:21

And so I I just I was reading this from this book um called Tax the Rich um which is just a a great title it says Tax the rich um loopholes uh where is it dang it uh here we go uh tax the rich how lies loopholes and lobbyists make the rich even richer um and so I was giving some of these quotes here and I'll I'll put the the book in the link uh the show notes um but some of the things if you had worked every single day from the time Columbus sailed to America to the present and earned five thousand dollars a day you would still have less money than Jeff Bezos makes in a week like what and I use this I use this example in my in my uh so in the in the book to come and this could be that this could be edited out but I use it I use it anyway like so in the in the New Testament uh there there is an an unreal amount of money in Jesus's parables is 10,000 talents if you were to translate 10 thousand 1000 talents of gold into money today it's about 55 billion dollars 55 billion dollars is not an unconscionable amount of money to us like there are more than 30 people in the world whose wealth amounts to more than 55 billion dollars which is to say that there are more than 30 people in the world who have a biblically unthinkable amount of money like it's good like the way that it shows up in the scriptures is as essentially a made up number.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Yeah. And and there are there are people there are more than 30 people more and families in the world who have what in what in the time of the Bible would be thought of as a made up amount of money.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

In in 2024 to 2025 the top US CEOs earned approximately 281 to 300 times more than the average worker.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

So the the the people at the top who as we we would expect as CEOs sure they're in business meetings but they're not the ones making the uh the wooden chair um that people are selling uh they are earning 281 to 300 times more than the average worker and so I the question is how much is enough to live on how much is enough Malcolm so so there's a great and we we can put this in the uh in the show notes but there's a there's a current affairs uh dot org article that just says it it's it's it's from 2017 and it's titled It's basically just immoral to be rich um and it's and it's not but but the point that's made in this article is that it's not about it's not about how much you ha like it's not about how much you have or or how much you make it's about how much you keep it's an issue of retention. And so the the last the last paragraph of this of this piece is the central point is this it's not justifiable to retain vast wealth. This is because that wealth has the potential to help people who are suffering. And by not helping them you are letting them suffer. It does not make a difference whether you earned the vast wealth. The point is that you have it and whether or not we should raise the tax rates or cap CEO pay or rearrange the economic system we should all be able to acknowledge before we discuss anything else that it is immoral to be rich. That much is clear which is to say that like you having it and you keeping it when you do not need it is a moral decision. It is a moral decision. And so and and this and and and this even goes back uh goes back to the rich young uh you know to the rich young ruler question and uh and kind of how uh it's it's that um and and and even the way that Jesus I think I think even the way that Jesus approaches um uh us us and wealth when he when he asks us to give to give stuff up and especially to give and especially to give to the poor like you're not just you're also not just doing that for the needy like you're doing it for you and for your own and for your own salvation because they're because because what mammon because mammon wants to wants to own you um and when you when you hold on to so much when you when you hold on to so much more than you need the way that I describe uh the way that I define greed in the book is that it's when desire it's when desire outstrips need. And and most of us don't even ask the question of like what is it that I actually need um and so we tell ourselves and then and then I'll let's go back to back back and forth but um you know we tell ourselves I'm going to accumulate more money so that I can give more money um which is a uh you know we we we radically overestimate our own moral ability because the fact of the matter is and this is from um St. John of the Latter a uh 13th century monk uh but he's like once the once the once the money's in the once once the money's in your grip your grip your grip tightens uh once you get it you wanna you want to keep it yeah um and the principle of Christian charity is not the more you have the more you give but the but the less I need the more I give yeah um the more that I'm reminded that uh everything I have is a gift from the Lord that allows me to be gift that that allows me to be open handed um but but yeah like when you start there's a he does a he does a thought exercise in this in this in this in this article um about like uh let me let me let me see if I can find like he just you just like pick pick an amount of pick an amount of money where you could like really live well okay like you pick that amount and then everything in excess of that you should be giving away right yeah nobody actually lives like that though and that and that's what and that's and that's and that's and that's one of the things that the author is pointing to in this article. Yeah.

Defining Socialism Plus US Interference

SPEAKER_05 36:27

Yeah in the in in this book Tax the Rich um it says you know the tech let you know let's get some di definitions of what is rich because rich is different for different people and the technical definition uh dictionary definition of a millionaire is someone with a net worth of at least one million makes sense you're a millionaire you have one million so he said for example if you make$250,000 a year you have 10,000 in your checking account$100,000 in your retirement account and owe the bank five hundred thousand on the mortgage of your one million dollar home you are a millionaire. Congratulations good for you we still don't think you are rich no offense we do not want you to pay higher taxes this is from this book Tax the Rich. If however you make one million a year in income have one million in your e-trade account account own two houses just you not the the bank each worth two million we do do not we do think that you are rich. Not as rich as Bill Gates certainly but rich enough that you should pay higher taxes and not gripe about it. That seems to be like just natural like I think normal way of thinking that if you are saying there's some there's someone who's struggling to have a place to be warm and and and have food in their bellies and you're going I don't know if I can uh purchase this third boat um they'd go like I think I think it's okay for us to consider taxing the rich at a different level in that case and so that's where I think the conversation between socialism and capitalism I think is a really important conversation and which is why I wanted to respond to yes Thaddeus Williams's uh beginning debate with you but go into this conversation because I think socialism is given this like like the fact that you said that on the podcast I'm a Christian everyone's and that he's now wondering whether you're you know you know that's even a crit can even be a Christian held position um and even us discussing this podcast I'm sure there'll be people uh that that naturally listen and go like oh I don't know guys you guys are kind of going off the deep end deep end here. Um so let's just begin with kind of definitions like they did with millionaire.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

What what how would you describe or define what socialism is well I would just say simply and and here's and here's and here's the thing I'm and well okay what I would say I would say simply it's it's I'm I'm looking at uh a political economy that is rooted in meeting human need. Um and so you know formally it formally it refers to um kind of workers workers owning the uh owning the means of production so it's so where where where in capitalism value value is extracted is extracted from the worker and the worker doesn't doesn't actually get to see the benefits of it. In so in socialism it would be the kind of thing where like if you you know you produce the good you get a majority of the you know you get a majority of the benefit of the benefit from it. Yeah um but also what and and but also uh but also paired with that like there there is a um there's a there's a there's a base societal assumption that everybody should have access to uh that everybody should have access to the to the things that they need.

SPEAKER_05 39:47

Um which n isn't necessarily true in capitalism.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

No, I mean it's not it it it it's it's a hopeful byproduct of capitalism is what like like it's that it it it it it it it's it's an assumption you can go back to um back to Adam Smith and some others like it's this it's this assumption that if I am allowed to pursue what I really want I'm only going to be able to do that by help by helping you residually um and and it's basically because because basically it's it's conceived as a way to harness human selfishness. Yeah um it's it basically makes the assumption like people are going to be selfish and people are going to be greedy so let's find a way to have that benefit as many people as possible. Maybe that's the thing like maybe like it's um and so you know so you could you could see it as the best of a bunch of bad options but already making that already making that assumption first of all already making that assumption that it's best already means that you're not really going to consider other other options. But also you're already affirming that it's a bad option. And it's bad. And we and what and what we've seen especially over the course of the last um number of centuries four you know four or five centuries uh is that it is it is bad.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:14

Which Thaddeus uh even acknowledges that he has many critiques of it. However it feels like he's n then goes back insane how wonderful it is. Um but let's go back to the definition. I think you're you you did that off the off the cuff. And I think that's um you know from one of the dictionaries uh it's an economic and political framework centered on the idea that the ownership and control of resources production and wealth should be shared either collectively publicly or democratically rather than concentrated in private hands for profit.

SPEAKER_06 41:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 41:41

Socialist systems prioritize meeting human needs healthcare housing education rather than maximizing profit. That sounds right.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

And and and let me throw something else in there because people always refer to quote unquote failed socialist economies and they and they and they and they especially look at uh whether it's the Soviet Union or uh or what's and and people talk less about failed in um in the case of China but but a number of these other a number of these other regimes where people were attempting um these new socialist economies what especially uh in in Africa or uh or in Latin America. And it's really important to remember that nobody has actually been allowed to try it for very long. Like like especially because of United States intervention like it's this it's this thing where if anybody decides to try it, suddenly a coup happens like and it happens to be a coup largely financed by the United States. Like it's it's there all a number of these case studies where that that that people refer to are uh are situations that were actively cut off at the knees. So the so one of the reasons why we don't have data what why we why we don't have extensive data except for example uh uh China in a in some in in some ways um is often because of United States intervention um they're like if you're not going to be sympathetic to US business interests you are a threat um so when you start uh so when so when Iran nationalizes their oil or when other or when other countries say hey like we have these resources we should be able to use their like we should be able to use them for the benefit of the people who live here and and the US is like no but we we want it. So even if that means we have to destabilize you like that's what we're gonna do. And then and then and then and then folks become which we're doing in Cuba right now we've been doing this for a very long time. Yeah. And so and so then so then the nations who say things like hey these resources are here and they're so we should be able to use them to kind of support the well-being of our people. How is that a villainous like how is that a villainous position? Well it's a villainous position because it's not in our interest as as the United States.

SPEAKER_05 44:13

And the the argument against it is going to be Soviet Union and other uh examples where uh there was a centralized um uh hoarding of that and then the to you know centralized hoarding of the of the wealth by the government and the government uh choosing to not distribute the wealth yeah and they kill people and they persecute I mean they persecuted folks killed folks all that kind of stuff this none of this is a justification of any of those things which are which are evil um but some uh versions of a democratic socialism um so not necessarily um just like straight um one that that version of it but a version of this you could think of Canada with uh it's it's socialized medicine right uh so universal healthcare yeah um which I think us in the states I've I've heard a lot more um positivity towards like is there something we can do because yeah we're like the only developed nation that doesn't have it it's it's becoming so impractical to get sick like you you get poor.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

If you get sick you get poor medical debt is I think is I think still the leading cause of bankruptcy in this in this country.

Jubilee And Acts Economics

SPEAKER_05 45:20

And so we are we are much closer to being homeless than we are being millionaires. Like it's it's it's coming um if something bad happens. And so the I think the goal of socialism is redistributing that that wealth to help people in you know to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor through redistribution, through wage protection, through public services, um things like this. But since we're not necessarily trying to make this argument um you know politically, although we there's some things that you say like that might be helpful um scripturally how would you as a you know argue this as a Christian socialist? How is is there is there a good justification again it's not there's nothing a direct correlation but is there something that you would argue from our economy uh in many ways the world economy runs off of American consumer debt um and the way that debt uh just the way that debt works is fun like that like it's fundamental to our economy.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

One one could say that we just live in a debt economy. And it's really interesting that when God calls his people and gives them the law uh in Deuteronomy 15 he gives them a system including the Jubilee that essentially if he tells them like if you basically if you do this there will not be a permanent underclass because every few years debts are going to be forgiven and and land is going to return like land is going to return to its original owner like all like all these kinds of things. Not and not only that but but the ethos of the people of God is supposed to be if somebody is in need you are open handed to them because you were slaves you were slaves in Egypt. And that and and that and that remembrance of that identity ought to remind you to be open handed with your neighbors. That is then ultimately fulfilled in the church in Acts two when when you have a community of people who actually do live in that way by the power of the Holy Spirit. And so for me when I think about when I think about the way that our churches ought to look the logic of capitalism ought ought have nothing to ought have nothing to do with ought have nothing to do with that. We're not gonna build systems that just build in allowances for allowances for greed and selfishness and stuff. No we're gonna expect of one another that we live according that we live according to the word of of of God and so and so what that so what that then is going to mean is that like we're gonna build communities where um as was true of the church in Acts 4 that God's grace was so powerful he had worked among them that that that there were no needy people in their midst like we're gonna we've got to operate as a people where when people express when people of the community express a need, our first response is what do we have to do to meet that to meet that need not the response of well you just need to work like you just need to work harder and figure you know and figure it out because this system is built in such a way that like if you take if you worked hard enough and took advantage of it then you then you'd be fine.

SPEAKER_07 48:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

And so like some I I I don't think there are any you know there are any nations that are going to kind of robustly take that on but I think that the church is I mean the church is responsible to think about everything that we do and and the way that we organize ourselves uh through the lens of the gospel um which it which includes the like it like part of our a significant part of our witness is our econ is our economic witness um for any community that's that's that's true.

SPEAKER_05 49:01

Yeah yeah I mean I think regardless if you come from a capitalistic or um socialistic um mindset this is where it's like let's talk scripture um you know wealth is spiritually dangerous that is something that's very clear from scripture you know luke 12 watch out life does not consist in abundance uh uh first timothy six love of the money is a root of of evil like and talk about you know the how hard it is to go uh for a rich man to get to heaven um um god has a bias towards the poor um you know oppressing the poor insults God in Proverbs um Jesus's continual mission to the poor he is a uh a homeless itinerant preacher uh like um radical generosity is expected as Christians that we you mentioned the the Acts two that they share possession or acts four that no one had any need um you know justice is not optional all throughout the Old Testament do justice love mercy um true just true worship is justice for the oppressed um and so there's there's the Bible consistently critiques accumulation without concern for others and I think I I know capitalists would also agree that um they might turn a blind eye on some things um uh but for socialism the early church practiced that economic sharing in Acts two and four right um the the kingdom of God kind of reverses inequality that you know he God fills the hungry and send sends the rich away empty um you mentioned Jubilee and then gleaning laws um something in Leviticus where you leave a a tenth of your field for the poor and you say that that's not that tenth is not mine that's the poor's yeah um and we don't live in that agrarian society so what does that look like and this is where we you know we try to always uh highlight our um benevolence fund and things like that but also I think there is something really valuable for us as as Christians to not just give to the fund but also to say like we as a family what are we committing to the people around us to say like no this is not mine this is the poor's or as a business like I mean when you think about profit like I mean you you can you can think about it I mean the question is like what do you do with that profit?

SPEAKER_02 51:05

Do you uh and and what and what our system tells it tell tells us to do is reinvest it so that you can make more yeah um and and you can and you can make the dis and you can or or you know bonuses all like like like all those kinds of things are are you specifically as a Christian business owner thinking about setting like like are there i is are there ways even for you to implement the gleaning laws in the way that you think about profit of like there there is a portion of this of this profit that we are setting aside for the poor yeah and and and then and then paired with that I mean are when you when you even think about when we think about our own salaries and stuff we often don't ask the question how you know how much do I actually need to live I just I just operate with well as life goes on I should be making more and more and more and more. And the issue with that is that often with that comes lifestyle creep and we end up telling ourselves that we need more and more and more uh when we when we don't but sorry that's a side note.

Freedom Claims And Voluntary Exchange

SPEAKER_05 52:04

That's good that's good. So let's um steel man um the the capitalistic argument um so um a a capitalist com from scripture uh might say well the Bible well actually before before we go to that argument let let let me define let let's define capitalism um we define socialism what is what is capitalism um and you can jump in but um uh it's an economic system uh where private individuals or businesses own the means of production operating for profit and make decisions about what to produce how to produce it and to for whom um it's the allocation of resources are largely guided by market forces supply demand all those things that you've learned as just like this is the air we breathe um capitalism is a system where private ownership and voluntary exchange drive the economy um you can um what's his name um Thaddeus uses the example pulling from an article where you you go to Starbucks yeah you have someone you have the the business owner Starbucks CEO um and then they have the the the people who are the Brisas who are making the coffee or putting the things out and then you go in and you want to buy your seven dollar uh frappuccino or whatever it may be um and so he it's this mutual free freedom of exchange here um but the core principles of capitalism is there's private property yeah uh it's uh the Starbucks owns the land they own they own the the coffee the beans yeah um there is a profit motive they want to they might charge seven dollars but it actually may have cost them two dollars to make that cup or maybe 30 cents um something like that um there's the market economy um the supply and demand someone wants it uh there's the competition they're they're competing with other other coffee people and then there's the voluntary exchange someone chose to spend seven dollars for that and and and to that and to that like even from that definition it's very clear how much how much work the word voluntary does because because and what and this is and this is the other thing like what what makes people so resistant to non-capitalistic frameworks is because they think that it's like the issue is that it's a restriction on their freedom and especially in this especially in this country like freedom is our highest like is our highest value. Anything that keeps it are you arguing against freedom Malcolm?

SPEAKER_02 54:21

Yes uh anything you're gonna lose people I mean I can't that's that's that's okay I want us to like but I but but but I want us to think about to think about what that think about what that what that means. So like yes it's technically yes it's technically voluntary exchange but if it's something that I need in order to survive for someone to raise the prices because they know that I have that need like yes I'm technically voluntarily entering into that agreement but I don't actually have a choice. Like this is like this is this this is not just about me choosing uh to buy a to you know to buy a coffee in the morning like this is the way that it affects like the food that I need to survive the the ha the the the housing the housing market like all these things all these things are driven by that same profit motive yeah even if and and and and so and so even these things that may present themselves as voluntary are not actually really fully voluntary. They're they're these things that I have to do and I'm at the behest of I'm in many ways at the behest of the profit motive for me to get the things that I actually need.

SPEAKER_05 55:34

Yeah. And this is where I think maybe when we talked with Dr Tran uh a while back about capitalism we used the illustration of kind of running the lemonade stand and I was like is it really wrong for me to um you know I I bought the the wood to build the thing and we bought the lemons and the sugar and the water and we sold the cup of lemonade that um you know let's say for three dollars. You're the worker so you I mean you you have you have the rights to the to that to what follows from that production process.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

Go ahead.

Church Witness And Closing Call

SPEAKER_05 56:05

So then let's say I did all that work and now I'm I'm telling uh my son to run the lemonade stand um and uh we sell it for three dollars and I tell him hey I'll give you uh a dollar an hour um to do this now you that you would say that kind of feels wrong uh shouldn't he just get all the profit but okay now let's no because you're managing because I had the risk I had the risk as the capitalist class uh but I think this is the this is where it comes down I think that that that maybe that is a good illustration the difference between you know a father and a son doing the lemonade stand is one thing it's when it's the the CEO and his employees it feels very different because the CEO is getting uh millions and millions of dollars uh Christmas bonus and the the employee employee is going I can barely make rent this month yeah um and so the the the capitalist class profits by paying workers less than full value of what they produce um uh there they're give you an example so let's say you have uh someone uh a furniture factory uh creates two hundred dollars worth of chairs an hour um but that worker is only paid fifteen dollars for that an hour for that work that remaining 185 is taken by the factory as profit which fantastic right like that we this to me makes sense because this is the system I grew up in but the owner did not create that value the worker did yeah the owner claims it for themselves simply because they own the factory and this argument from uh uh I was uh article I'll I'll post here says this is fundamentally theft yes the owner is robbing the employee$185 of that yeah and as we said before the the the CEOs the richest one percent own more wealth than the bottom 90% combined um because they have stolen that value created by that labor yeah and someone would go yeah but like the CEO they they began they they risked it all in this they risked all of this this potential to the to buy the the land to buy this what if it didn't work out they would have been they lost all that money it's it's they're owed that this this person would argue yeah but most wealth comes from previous exploitation yep stolen land slavery um whatever it may be but also uh workers risk far more than capitalists uh workers risk uh survival health well being uh by selling our labor for less than it's worth and so if you've ever been in a job where you're like I know I'm I should be getting more than this and I don't know how my boss is getting double what I'm paying when I'm doing far more work than they like you get that and yet we still say no capitalism's great um and because it's just constantly going to exploit the the the the the poor so Malcolm how do I how do I navigate all this in the the the world we live in because this is like well that that's great. That is uh this is the situation that we're in this is it that's what we're in so like do we do we revolt? Yeah I mean if I revolution if I were if I were a Marxist I would say violent revolution is the way to go um what is ironic is that both a capitalist and a con a socialist would say um the other is is is violating the the command to not steal because a a um a socialist would say hey capitalist you're saying do not steal but you're the rich are stealing so much from the poor the poor barely have enough to live and you are buying your third yacht like in your your private jet like it's it's sickening and so you're you are violating that command and then the the capitalist would say to the socialists you're violating the command to not steal because you're now saying it's the state who is pulling the money from the people without their uh their voluntary effort.

SPEAKER_02 59:54

So now I'm bringing this to the Christian um uh from a Christian capitalist perspective they would say 2 Corinthians 9 7 says God loves a cheerful giver therefore giving should be free not forced or coerced what would you say to that uh well first of all I mean uh that's that's on a uh that's on a personal that's on a personal basis and so I mean throughout the throughout the scriptures when when the state even when the state takes uh egregious taxes uh Christ still says pay your taxes um and so if if we were in if we were in a state that actually uh really significantly valued uh valued the poor and thought that everybody should have housing and stuff like that and we had to pay taxes that fed that then I mean I I wouldn't have a problem with that uh our state is not that our state feels um much more strongly about supporting war than than than supporting the poor we couldn't afford healthcare for millions of people no but we can afford a billion dollars a day instantly we're we're affording it for the war yeah yeah yeah and so this is the perfect example of tax the rich yeah because they're they're going to they're going to use the money on what they want to use it on regardless.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:10

I mean that's what's gonna happen and so this is I know we have two minutes um and this is why I just want to go lean into this like that's where I think that that's where like um what can we do I there's a hundred maybe a couple different things but like tax the rich seems to be like the most natural thing like if we could if you want to think about what the government should do then that's what the government that to me seems the most natural. What were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:32

Yeah and and uh but but but yeah but I mean but there but but but but we're also in a situation where we are not this is this is I think just a fact of our current political political situation. We're really not a recognizable democracy or even republic. I mean there are just there are a few rich people who run the who run the game. In our political system. The Epstein class the Epstein class yeah well like I mean the the the amount of the the fact that corporations and lobbyists can lobby to get the kind of to get the to get the kind of legislation that they that they want passed. You know the all all having having so much money in the system makes us actually practically much more of an oligarchy than than a than a than a democracy or a republic. And one of the things that I think we've seen over the clock over the course of the last few years is a leaning more a leaning more into that.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:37

So which is it's scary. But like but as but my last but my word of encouragement is that I said the church was under Rome in the in the first in its first few centuries and their first question was not how do we get Rome to do better but it's how are we the people of God in the midst of it. When at our show um on on on Monday somebody asked like why do you use the language of resisting the empire rather than the language of reforming the empire and both me and show agree like it's because this is not is not going to be reformed like people are going to operate by means of their of their greed and their pride and stuff like that. Our responsibility is in the midst of that we are going to be relentless about being the people of God and acting as the people of God. So where the world tells us to accumulate for ourselves and all this kind of stuff, we're gonna be the kind of people who give the kind of people who when the Lord has given us an excess of what we need we get creative about finding ways to use that extra to meet the needs of others.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:37

Amen go back to read uh and listen to uh our sermon series on Revelation uh because the the beast is not going to get reformed the beast is going to beast and the the church is gonna need to uh resist the empire in these ways and it's not uh overthrowing the government it is caring for people in tangible tangible ways with love and and real care so hey y'all malcolm's got to run he's got to get on a plane thank y'all we are so thankful for y'all that thank you for listening to this uh podcast I'm sure it stirred up some questions thoughts like that look at some of the the links in the notes uh best way to support this as always give a rating a review uh share it with people uh give us one million stars um not because we're needy but because the algorithm overlords demand it and if you don't pay that that homage that sacrifice I don't know if we're gonna be here next week um or two weeks.