SPEAKER_01 0:26

Alright, well, welcome to another episode of Theology of Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church of the world or somebody has shattered to pieces. And today I am posting solo because I am driving back from the airport in Dallas with Show Baraka. Everyone put your hands together for show. That's right. Thank you, Show. We have sound effects, but I love that you can make the sound effects.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

That's right. That's right. Can you guys come down with this? Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to another episode of Christians in Cars Going to Waco.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

That's right, that's right. No, we uh we did this a couple uh years ago with uh uh I just said her name. Um Caitlin. Caitlin Chess. Uh and we instead of comedians in cars getting coffee. I don't know if you ever watched that show on Netflix, we uh are theologians in SUVs coming back from the airport. It's not as catchy of a title.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Not at all.

Atlanta Culture And Sports Talk

SPEAKER_01 1:24

And it's only happened once before. We've got a workshop this one. This is why you're here for brand new realm. Atlanta workshop this one. Um but show the most important question is uh you're coming in from Atlanta. Are you are you do you do you defend Atlanta? Is is is Atlanta like your your pride? Is there do you have a love for Atlanta sports or Atlanta food?

SPEAKER_00 1:48

There are certain things I defend when it comes to Atlanta. Okay. I defend Atlanta culture. Okay. I do not defend Atlanta food. I definitely do not. I don't even know if they have sports games. The Hawks are just The Haways defends a base. Yeah, the Hawks are they're just they are basically um their hospitality.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Hospitality, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, so like if you ever go to a Hawks game, there are probably more away fans than there are home fans. Yeah? So I think there's a hospitality.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Also, did you hear recently about the uh they're like night or something like that? Oh yeah, that was a good job.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

No, that wasn't the hog, that was ABA. That was all right, and all of the community was like, this is a great idea. And it was like, maybe it's not such a great idea. And then Adams over was like, you know what, maybe this is not a good brand for the NBA. I think part of the even the greater atrocity with that particular issue is that the folks who were trying to attribute that to black culture is like this is black culture, and it's like of all the things that we wanted. That's what we wanted. So it was really interesting. Um so yes, uh, I do not defend Atlanta. No, I respect them. I try to be somewhat of a fan. Uh-huh. But uh, yeah, but I will defend the culture. The Falcons are the Falcons. I mean I will say I'm not a baseball fan. If there was a team that you should be proud of, it'd be the Braves.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Well, they they they're your new album of um Midnight and an Empire. Um I think of a good culture. What's that? Midnight of a Good Culture. Midnight of a Good Culture, sorry. Um well I'm I'm I'm conflating that like the tour. The tour here. Um but the Empire, I feel like the Braves are a version of Empire. Please explain. Because I think most people are Braves fans tangentially because they they put out the propaganda and on TBS all across the South of like watching Braves. That's true. And you're like, why is everyone in Texas a Braves fan?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

But they don't perform like an Empire, though. Maybe in the 90s they were like kinda close. That's true. But they're nowhere near the Yankees. That's a whole different empire. So uh the Dodgers now. I guess the like the Yankees would be tantamount of like America and Atlanta would be like France in the 1700, 1800s. It was like at one point in time, we were kind of like a nice little empire, but you're just a shadow of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

That's why that's why uh well you you wear a lot of hats, um, not just physically, but uh you as an artist, uh as an author, and uh cultural critic, um what what hat seems to fit the best for you? Right now, or just in general. Yeah, in general. Which one do you find better?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

I don't think yeah, uh I love this the culture model kind of reference. Because I think it's seasonal. I think the different seasons I'll I'll wear different hats, and I think I'll make certain hats more important than the other because I just feel like the Lord is impressing on for me at this particular season to do a certain thing and to focus my energy towards that. And then once that particular season is over, I'll say this hat is a little too heavy for the summer months. So let me uh let me wear something a little more, you know, uh comfortable and nimble. And so I'll wear that for a period of time. And there'll be seasons where I'll wear two different hats. Yeah, but I I can't say there's one. Uh I will say the ones I seem to be wearing more frequently these days might be the writer, cultural critic, speaker. Yeah. The music hat is not being as is not being worn as much as uh it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Is the the the music hat? Where did that come from? Um what what's what yeah, what's the what's the show origin story?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

My brothers wore hats back in the day. Okay. And they loved their hats. And once they outgrew them, they gave their hats to me. And I said, I love these hats. I love these hats like uh like Run DMC or the hats like the Vuji's Wu Tang. Yes. And then um I started to love my mom's hats. They were a little feminine, but I was like, why not? Like the Sunday morning hats. But you know, the Arena Franklin's, the the hats like the Whitney Houstons. I love this hat analogy. How far can we take this? We go far. We go far.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Uh as a bald man, I need to wear more hats.

From Poetry To Rap Origin Story

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Um, I just grew up in a house uh that loved music. No no one in our house was an actual musician or artist, but we just loved music. If anything, I think uh I I kind of walked into music through poetry and reading. And because of my affection for poetry, specifically poetry of the Harlem Renaissance, I loved to write poetry. And then I like to tell the joke. Once I got to high school, I realized that girls like rappers more than poets. So I was like, well, let me uh make up a little pivot here. Yeah. So that's uh kind of primarily how I got into rap. I wasn't really serious. My oldest brother was a was a rapper, nothing professional but rap with a he had a crew and they would rap. And then one day when I was in high school, he asked me to like be on a song to perform a song with him. Yeah. And that was the first legitimate rap I wrote. And after that, I just kind of caught a bug and just started rapping a lot, writing. Yeah. And it was uh it was on from there. Where'd you grow up? Southern California. Okay. So outside Los Angeles, north of San Diego. Yeah. Do you feel like those that influenced you musically? Absolutely. Like I grew up in uh I mean NWA. Yeah. Um if you want to go real deep into the the crate, the the far side, the hieroglyphics, the uh Project Blow, which no one will probably know other than people who are like esteemed hip-hop heads, but like if you if you weren't on the if you weren't on New York, the the the next best hip-hop scene was on the West, it was in California. Yeah. And so, yeah, I grew up doing a time of expersioning. So not only music, but a lot of the films were influenced by hip-hop. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

And it's one thing to to write, so you you're a poet. How did what's I've always been fascinated? Uh I've I'll play uh I played drums and some other instruments, but um what what is the like the the path to from writing poetry into actually creating these songs that we now listen to today? Like what is that what's that look like?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Uh lots of failure, lots of critiques, yeah, humility, um, but trying, practice and listening. I think.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Do you always have like a book with you to write down you know some thoughts? Back then or today?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Uh back then and I guess probably updated today. Yeah, I don't remember walking around with notepads and just writing rhymes and notepads, yeah. Like probably being negligent in schoolwork and just writing raps and uh a lot of stealing back then. Okay uh stealing lyrics and and uh uh lines from other people and claiming them as my own. Uh until you get called out and you're like, oh, I didn't know. I didn't know I was supposed to do this. Gangster's paradise. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm pretty sure that's Coolio. What? I've never heard of this gentleman using. So yeah, it it just um a lot of freestyling too. Yeah, you know, especially during my day, like freestyling was something you just did, ciphers, you just and you just try, and even if you were bad, you just still you got better. And so, you know, like with most musicians, although I don't consider hip-hop artists musicians, but you listen to your favorite musicians and you you kind of learn from them. Similarly, I think with writers, with poets, with hip-hop artists, the more you consume good writers and good thinkers, it increases your ability to communicate it, right? Yeah. And so once I found my three or four people who I really just zoned in on, I I caught it I I one, I initially started to really sound like them, but then I realized after a while I could start to cultivate my own voice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

I think it's I mean, so we've listened to your your work for glass. I mean, I think I forgot introduced to it uh with the narrative album and kind of went back. Um and I just not to puff your head up, but I was like, this is very unique. Um this is not kind of in the box of what I had had heard from. I grew up listening Christian rap, at least wise, uh um T-Bone and uh Grits, but then I would listen to a lot of the other stuff as well. And I just like it's very unique. How do you kind of like I don't know, it's like the if someone plays the electric guitar, there's probably like a million things they can do with that guitar, and I think uh guys like uh uh the guitarist for Rage Against the Machine or uh um Audio Slave, he what's his name, Tom uh Morello. I'm not gonna be a bit obvious. Okay, okay. But I am familiar with the groups. Okay, okay. He he was famous for being like, someone told me like there's no new sounds that can come out of a guitar, and that was like his challenge. So he was like, I'm gonna ch I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure people know that there's all these new random sounds that no one ever thought of. But I I think that's like in its own category. I feel like most people play guitar, like, yeah, it sounds like guitar. I feel like, but I've almost when I listen to your music, there's just different things that you're like, you're able to pull from so many different like genres and backgrounds that I'm like, there's so much going on here. How do you get it all in there? And like, where do you pull these samples? Like, I'm just like, so much creativity, it's fun.

Learning Craft Through Failure

SPEAKER_00 12:30

I think very similar to your favorite guitarist or drummer. I think is it building? Yeah, well, I I think what they will with what makes them talented or unique or even special within their genre, say if it's a rock, if they you know they're rock music, uh drummer or whatever, I'm pretty sure they're probably pulling from jazz drummers or Max Roach or people who are are talented, but they're not gonna play jazz drums or jazz rhythms, and but they'll say there's something about this jazz rhythm that I can kind of appropriate or take or and make my own and become a better, and the same with guitar. Like, I'm sure they'll listen to blues, they'll listen to gospel. Yeah, a lot of great musicians come from gospel choirs, and they, you know, are able to take those skills and talents and move it into the genre, and I guess you can say refined it or molded for that particular genre. And similarly, I think one of the things that made me a better hip-hop artist was when I stopped listening to just hip-hop. I think once I started to listen to jazz, once I started to listen to like singer-songwriter music, yeah, classical music, it gave me different tonality, it gave me different like observations of music, it gave me different cadence and rhythms, yeah, and I also wanted my music to sound a little bit more mature and diverse. Um, and so just sonically, that was something that I would you know I was passionate about. I think the content, the diversity of content comes from just the kind of person I am, I think how I was raised, yeah, the information that was imparted into me, the kind of discipleship I had, and just this amalgamation of show and the ability to live a liberated life with all that information. Because there was a point in my life, in my Christian music life, let me say, where I didn't feel like I can bring all of who that was to the table. I felt like, well, I can only bring the reformed Protestant evangelical show to the table. Yeah. But then once I started kind of challenging that, am I even reformed? Am I even evangelic? Like, what who am I? Yeah. And then it was like, you know what? My mom used to make me read these books. Frederick Douglass and all these interesting people in the Harlem Renaissance. Why have I given up on that? You know what I'm saying? And so it's like, let me get back to who I am. And so anyway, that kind of uh kind of cultivated me and pushed me towards the the albums like telling the tent and the narrative. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Well, you've I've heard you describe yourself as an old head. Um no shade. I I have no choice.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

I've been I've been told I'm old. It's like you can fake it and deny it all you want, but it's like show you are an old kid.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

So yeah, I that's why I tried to look like yeah, it's like there's there's wisdom there.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Yeah, I was at a conference not too long ago, and uh this young young lady about 21, 22, walks up to me and she says, Oh my gosh, you're Shogaraka. I was like, yeah, I'm you know. She was like, My dad loves your kids.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

How'd that feel?

SPEAKER_00 15:50

That's what I knew. I was like, That's what I did. I was like, okay. This is what it is. This is my new life right now. I am the artist of I am I'm the the the gin's the Gen Z's parent favorite artist. Not Gen Z, but their parents.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Well, if it makes you feel better, th those parents that are also in that camp, they're like, wait, like trying to introduce you or artist of your your time prime to our our kids. And they're like, wait, who? You're like what?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

You don't know this? Yeah. Which I'm perfectly fine with because I I am also a lazy artist when it comes to promotion and putting myself out there. I just don't do a good job of that seems exhausting. That to me seems like the most exhausting. Oh, it's it is the most exhausting. And I've what I've tried to do is construct a theory or a philosophy that attaches it to the empire that makes me more righteous so that I don't have to work. It's like, oh, this is witchcraft. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not all wrong. I truly believe it, but I just gotta get more people on the boat. Like to realize like marketing is nothing more than witchcraft. You're trying to convince people to consume something that they had no desire to consume. And so it's a brainwash, it's it's definitely manipulation. And so I just don't want to participate in that. I want you if you want my music, you want it. I'm not gonna spend more time marketing this work than I did creating it. I'm not gonna do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

So well, with uh with that experience of being an old head, what have you noticed has shifted in the music industry first, and then talk about the Christian music industry. What have you noticed has shifted in your time since you began and then kind of where we're at today?

Why Diverse Listening Fuels Creativity

SPEAKER_00 17:38

If I could be completely fair, I I can't say that I um I'm that tapped into the Christian music industry these days because I've been independent for so long. And as I said, like I don't do the tiring work of trying to like promote myself and when I when I do things, if it's marketing, it's usually me by myself or friends that help me out. So I don't really operate in any kind of machines, if you will. But back in the day when I was operating in those, I like it was it was it was Hades. Like I would find myself desiring to work with non-Christians more than Christians because at least I knew who I was dealing with. Like it made no sense for me to be burned by the world, then to turn around and say, Well, let me work with Christians and get burnt even worse. And I'm like, well, at least my expectations are to get burnt when I'm working with the world. At least I know like the bottom line is profit. Yeah. The bottom line is I need to make these folks money if they won't if they want to work with me. In the Christian space, they lie to you and say, Oh no, it's a business, it's a ministry, we care about your soul, but the moment you stop making the money, for some reason their care and their intimidus starts to uh dissipate. And um, but yeah, and I've I've seen some things, and I mean like things that lead to litigation within the Christian space that has left me dumbfounded. And so that was then I suspect not much has changed. I've I I'm on social media just enough to see people involved in litigation, to see people calling each other out, to see that there's still a competitive granted, competition is going to exist. Yeah. Um, to see there's still territories. I will say I am excited about how I'm seeing somewhat of the genre grow within certain spaces like Christian hip hop. I'm seeing more festivals to some degree, I'm seeing groups get more recognition, get more mainstream, but I don't know if that's actually good all the time. You know? Yeah. Not all growth is good growth, so nobody's swelling. That's called cancer, right? Yeah, exactly. So I don't know. I I I I don't want to be the guy who the old head who's like, oh, back in my day. Yeah. Because even back in my day it wasn't really healthy. So I just want people to have wisdom and know what they're getting into. But I I just don't know if there is a a healthy way of doing business in the Christian world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

So do you think like I've always been fascinated with that because I I love I love music. I listen to all music. Um I sometimes, and it seems very rarely, love Christian music. Um and so it's it's kind of like someone recommends a Christian movie. I am very hesitant to go see it. Um do you think that's that's like a good hesitancy because of these temptations? Um or do you like you feel like we should just stop making it Christian music and secular music?

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Uh to answer the first part. I I don't know if I wouldn't call it good or bad. I don't know what kind of impulse that is. I would just say that I don't think I think each person is each person has a particular taste to what they find to be good art and cheap art. And I overwhelmingly feel that most Christian art is cheap art. That doesn't mean that I don't think it shouldn't exist. Because I also feel like an overwhelming amount of mainstream, if we can call it that, art is very cheap, yeah, lowbrow, yeah, bawdy, and like there's no real attempt to explore the truth and the mysteries of human thinking, and it's just we're just gonna so we're gonna show nakedness and that's the and that's the hook. Yeah, or we're just gonna be explicit and that's the hook. Yeah. And it's like well, I mean, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

So it's just very true. I think that's true. I think I think it's fair. I think it gets um accepted in. In the Christian subculture, because it's Christian, so they allow some of the cheap art. Right. Um, and then in the secular world, it gets accepted because there's something, a hook like the nakedness or whatnot. Right, right, right. But some of the deeper stuff doesn't ever usually get as well appreciated until maybe later, and I realize it's starting lasting over decades or whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

I I like to think of it as most worlds have their have their pop culture. Yeah. And so we were all fascinated by the Marvel universe. Yeah. But it began it began to like cannibalize itself. And not only that, the the market itself and so now that's hindered, we I I like to think, and a lot of people agree, it's hindered actual good art from being made because industries have seen the benefit of just trying to reproduce this particular uh you know uh this particular genre of film, even if it's not moral, it's like, well, how can we replicate a superhero kind of theme? And that leaves us atrophied for other types of art. Yeah. That you know, the the smaller films, the independent films, the studio uh that's who the uh art house films, which may not have the great return on investment, but they impact culture so in so many ways. Um so anyway, all that to say, there's that in the Christian space where you know you make a movie, uh I don't want to say any name. Well, yeah, I'll say that. You'll make movies like, I don't know, like The War Room and The Face of Giants, and they'll do well. Yeah. Because you you know you're you have an audience, you have an you have an established audience that you know will get it. Yeah. But if you do something that's a little more risky, a little more on the edges of Christian society, Christian popular culture society, shall I say? Yeah. There's a risk there. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Did you see the this is to get I I I always make fun of face of the giants because it's just like, this is the worst application to David Goliath story. Um but so like that's an easy one. But did you see the the recent uh animated David movie? I have not, no. So I didn't even know it was being made. I just because I'm not on I don't see the advertisements or whatnot. But it was Christmas time, and my family was like, hey, let's go see a movie, and we're like, well, what's out? And we were about to go see Anaconda.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Glad you didn't. The remake with Jack Black and the World. I watched it like a week ago. Okay. I was so bored.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

I was gonna see between Anaconda and David, and I was like, I kind of feel like we should go see Anaconda. And then my boys, we saw the preview of David, they're like, and my boy have a 15, 13, 12-year-old. They're like, oh, let's go see David. I was like, I can't be the one saying that one's gonna see the right to design.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

I'm the one designed. And they loved it, and they were like, it was better than Prince of Egypt.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

And I was like, that's a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Oh, you oh you you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

I was like, No, we're talking about the soundtrack. Okay, we're talking about the soundtrack. Yeah, and I was just like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was good. It was good. I was like, I'm not gonna say terrible things about this. Um I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

But yeah, that's there's also a little nostalgia around Tensor Feature. Yeah. Because you know, you probably watched it when you were. I did, I did watch it at the time. Teenagers, yeah, so you know, yeah. There's a little nostalgia. You go, you go. I realize I go back and I'll watch things that I was I loved at a young age, and now that's hard. Why do I like this? Yeah, yes. But you know, so I was like, let me stay away from these things so they can they can stay sacred. They can stay sacred in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah. Um well so it we touched on it, what would you say like just the music in general? Like it's it's become much more you know digital, right?

Marketing Pressure And Overproduction

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Um digital, fast, like easily produced, there's no soul in it. I think when you get the machine behind things, it loses meaning, it loses its essence and its soul. And so I think not only do you prefer records? I pre I uh no, I can't I won't say that I prefer records. I don't I don't have a problem with the digital. I I prefer I I love being able to use the record player, but I like I mean, yeah, it's I have a record player and I love it. I just don't like the price of records. It's like if they were we can go back like 10-15 years ago to the price of records. Now, you know, every hipster is like oh vinyl, and it's like okay,$40. Like, goodness gracious. Right. Um so yes, I I think uh I would prefer vinyl. I don't have a problem with digital consumption. I I think the problem is is the mechanism that makes us feel the need to overproduce, to to over-consume, to to there's always progress. Progress is always at our backs. And so there's never it never seems like there's enough. And so an artist drops an album in August, they have to drop another album album in December. And it's like I know this all this album is not good because you can't accumulate enough life in that period of time to produce something that's worth exactly the first album and you spend a year for the second album. It's it's ridiculous. So anyway. Yeah. So yeah, that's kind of like my I don't know. I uh I am a crow budget when it comes to something. Definitely an idealist uh in certain areas, but uh I try to sometimes keep it to myself except for a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Well, how do you like we kind of touched on the artistry? Um what's your kind of background at the church? Kind of that that that fuels some of your um your lyrics but also just your your story.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Did you grow up in the church? I did not. Okay. But we were a very pseudo-religious household in the sense that. So my father played professional football. Okay. And so the first parts of our life, we were consumed on Sundays with the uh worship of the pick skin. Yeah. So it's a big uh big idol in America. Yeah, and so sports was definitely an idol in our life. And but we, you know, my parents would reference God and Jesus, but there was no real spiritual disciplines that were demonstrated before us. Like we didn't pray. I never saw anybody read a Bible. Um but when we moved back to California once my father was done playing ball, our family did have a church, like there was a family church, better yet. Let me say that. Same simple minutes. Why is it C C C Cold? I don't know where it's taking me. Um there was a there was a church that a lot of our family grew up in, yeah, and so we would drive there every now and then. And that was the most of our religious engagement. It wasn't until I got to high school my father became a Christian. By this time my parents were separated, so there'll be seasons when I live with my mom, live with my father, etc. Okay. Well, my father becomes a Christian, and I mean his life totally changes, like he's a different guy, and I'm just like, he's strange. Why is he acting like this? And then um I would wake up in the morning before school and I would see him read this Bible, and I'm like, why is he reading the Bible? That's awesome. That's awesome. I'll be like, he's not a preacher. Wasting your time. Yeah. And if we were we were going to church all every Sunday. Yeah. And uh me he was married to another woman who's a minister, but she was she was Satan. And so what did you say? She was Satan. The minister. What's Satan? Yes, okay. This this minister my father was married to. Oh. And so she was not a gig is a good example of how to apply the gospel. Okay. Or how to be a representation of the gospel in our household. But they end up uh divorces, and um that's when I really started to see kind of like a real change in my father in the sense of but at the same time. I have two older brothers. My older brother became a Christian at college. Okay. And he would call me and reach out to me and like talk to me, come to find out, he was sharing the gospel with me. I was like, what okay, what are you doing? So like, what is this? I don't know if it was like a tag team between him and my dad to like planned this. And then I graduated from high school, and my mom is like, you need to go spend the summer with your brother. And so I went and spend here in Texas, actually. I'm in Texas. At University of Texas, my brother was in, uh had just graduated, but I was on my way to Tuskegee. Okay. And he would have me in like discipleship groups and all these Bible studies, and I was just like, oh, I can't wait to get out of here. And then, long story short, when I was heading to school, my sophomore year, because I spent two summers with him, uh, and he helped me get into book and make money in between during the off seasons or whatever. He was like, hey man, just do me a favor and go to a Bible school. And so, when you get back to school. And I was like, Alright, I'll do that for you. And I started going to Bible study, and I went to this Bible study, and like first semester, it led me to the Lord. Wow. Yeah. So um, to some degree in my high school life, I became more acculturated within the church. Okay. Definitely can't say that I had any desires to be a Christian. It was more performative on Sundays, and I guess you could say there's there's there are there are certain aspects that especially black church that can be performed well and applauded, even though outside of that particular church you don't live or uh uphold to those things. So I learned how to do that, and so even when I went to college, if I would go to church, I knew how to say the right things. First get out of God who's ahead of my life on behalf of my pastor. I'm a member of Mount Zion A and V Baptist Church. Okay, you got the memorized, you know what I'm saying? It's just all kind of random stuff. So anyway, yeah, um, yeah, man, and then when I got to college, I really got challenged because there were people my age who just didn't perform the faith, they lived it. And I knew and then I also realized it was like I could never perform well enough to please God anyway. So anyway, yeah, man, it was uh That's cool. It got it it drove me to a place of uh surrenderance, and and I also was really enamored by how culture was displayed within these spaces because I had before then like I never I never really listened to Christian hip-hop. Yeah, really funny story. Hopefully, this doesn't offend anybody. No, I'm in high school and I have a teammate who I come to realize later was a Christian and would try to evangelize me. Yeah, and he knew I loved hip-hop. We were on a football team together, and uh, if he would give me a ride home, he would always listen to Christian music. And one day he was like, hey man, I really want you to listen to this Christian hip-hop. And I'm like, alright. And he plays it, and I listened to it, and I'm like, this is trash. You should never ever I I like to think. I took the CD and threw it out his window. I was like, don't ever play this for anybody. Yeah. Come to find out, it was like DC talk. I was like, don't play this. And I was like, so don't ever call this. And so the funny thing is, I I ran back until many, many, many, many years later, after I had like a hip hop career and he knew who I was. You gotta connect on Facebook. So I see him. No, I see him in California. He does one of my shows. I was like, hey bro, do you remember that time? That DC talk. He's like, yeah, I remember that. I was like, bro, no, no. He was like, I was like, who are you thinking? He was like, uh, I know you like uh try to call the class and audio. I mean he named Amazing Griffin, so I'm thinking these are equal. Wow. So anyway, my brother eventually introduced me to like the cross-moving grits and kind of go like that. Yeah. And I was like, alright, well, this is different. Yeah. This is uh I can deal with this. Yeah. Even though I wasn't a Christian, I was like, I can deal with this, and I would listen to it kind of regularly. And I felt like that was some of the regenerative work that was happening in my life even before I kind of like totally surrendered, I was listening to Christian hip-hop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

That's now did you besides uh kind of going through it with uh the college Bible study, did you do seminary or some theological studies, or is it just kind of your own personal like, man, I want to read from these different people because I feel like you quote quite a bit of theologians and did I go to seminary?

Learning Faith Beyond Performance

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Yeah. Oh yeah, I went for enough to like know where some buildings are. Okay. I was like after that, I was like, yeah, this isn't for me. Yeah. Um was just a good curious individual. I just no, I just think I'm just a curious individual. I think my my parents and my aunts kind of imparted in me at an early age to be a reader and a learner. And I just I wanna I did go a significant period of my life not reading books. I think the funny thing is, is I read most of my childhood, high school, I don't remember reading a book outside of like assignment reading. Yeah. And then I get to college and uh I started reading again because I went to Tuskegee and I wanted to be reintroduced to a lot of black thinkers and sociologists and literature, but then I get to I become a Christian, and the book that really kind of just took me to the next level was I went to go see, I had never heard of Lord of the Rings everywhere in my life. Yeah. I had a guy who was a disciple of me was like, hey, this movie coming out, Lord of the Rings, was like, go see it. I was like, yeah, let's do it. Yeah. I was so blown away by the movie. I was like, I was like, oh man, this movie's amazing. He's like, you know, there's books. I was like, there's books. I went home at the time I wasn't married, but my wife was my fiance. She bought me all three books. Oh wow. I read all three books probably like within like two to three weeks. Really? Yeah. It was crazy. And I was like, I think I'm a reader. I think I'll have it. I just I started reading everything after that. Now, did you love the books more than the movies? Well, absolutely. Yeah. But I mean, I will say I do I did like the Hobbit more than I liked the book. The movie. I like the Hobbit book movie than I like more than I like the Hobbit book. Really? Yeah. Because it was more flushed out. Yeah, the things they added to the film versus the things that was left on.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

The thing that um I read the books, loved them, loved the movies. Uh the thing that I can't do is is the songs and the books. So we we we did like a cross-country uh tour with our family, and we did the book on tape, and they're like, you know, in the books you could just kind of skip through some of the songs and the audible version or whatever. It's just like them trying to sing it, I'm like, please stop.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

That's uh I don't know if I I don't know. I probably read like the first couple chapters of read a couple songs, and then I was like, I'm not doing this. I'm not even attempting to do it. I get I get what you're trying to do. If there's some sort of like exposition in the song, I'm going to miss it. Because I am not reading this. This is not your strength talking. But what's what's very interesting as a writer myself, somebody who is interested in writing fiction and novels, who has written fictions better yet. Yeah. I like to write songs in my in my work as well. Okay. So I have to also embrace the fact that people will probably skip through some of my poetry and music. So, you know, it's uh Well, you know, I think there's you have a strike, man. I'm not sure this is a topic of strength. Yeah, he's creating new languages. I won't have a new language, so maybe uh I can get over on that.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

What else have you uh written? I don't know. Recently there's the what's the book that just came out?

Reading Life And Lord Of The Rings

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Um, so my book is He Saw That It Was Good. Yeah So in that book there's I do have short stories and poetry throughout, like in between chapters. So if you want to read just my thoughts on you want to read my thoughts on sorry I just looked at my phone. Instead of phone call. Uh on kind of like creativity, on justice, on vocation. Yeah, the book is filled with that, just uh I guess you'd say anecdotes from history, kind of my own personal memoirs and reflections as well, yeah, a lot of theology, but also in between those thoughts and chapters are short stories, poems, because I didn't want to just write a book about creativity and not show people my creative side. Yeah. I think too much of Christianity like tales that doesn't show. So yeah. So uh uh uh that book and then you know I'll write for Christianity today, but not fiction. Yeah. Um but I think what I'm gonna start doing is writing more fiction on my substance. Okay. Which is empty as of right now. So don't go in about a month.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

You have any desi I I love I love uh graphic art. Do you uh do you have any desire to do some uh some color stuff? Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

I had a uh so my second album, Lions and Liars, came out in 2010. Actually, it was supposed to be a graphic novel. No what? Yeah. It started off as a graphic novel. I started to write it. Um the label that I was with at the time, the label here was like, hey, I think it's about time for you to think about putting out an album. What are your thoughts? And I I don't I don't remember what I told him, but I gave him like, oh, here's where I'm thinking. I have this concept. And you could I could tell he wasn't really interested. He was like, Oh, that's cool, that's cool. And then he was like, So what else are you working on? I was like, you know, and I was like, oh yeah, I'm working on this uh this graphic novel. It's called Lions and Liars, and here's the concept. And I walked up to the concept, and he said, That should be the album. And I said, huh. Okay, okay, and that that became my album, the concept, and then uh Is that where the like the cover came from? Yeah, okay. And so uh the art never came from it's just the music consumed it, and I never finished the uh the graphic novel. So yeah. That'd be cool. Yeah, that'd be cool. I have way too many ideas I want to do.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

So that's part of my problem. That's probably that's probably true for a lot of artists, just kind of like which which rabbit hole to go down. Um now a lot of your uh your art is not pigeonholed in any one area, but um you aren't afraid to to critique the the culture of the the church um or of you know what's going on in our our our empire. Um what uh what would you say what would you say the state of the church is right now? Where where are we at? Are we are we doing good? We are we we hit a revival uh depending on who you listen to, what you read.

Writing Books And Graphic Novel Dreams

SPEAKER_00 41:59

We got Bible sales up and you'll read Stetzer and Stetzer will say we are in a revival, and then you read Ryan Berg, and Ryan Berg will say this is not a revival. Yeah, he's subscribed. Pretty committed to that. Yeah, and so it just really depends on who you who you whose information you believe and you you set it to the side. I think it's also socializing like it's there's a socialization behind it in an intent, better yet. And maybe even some of what of a culture war between whether or not you want it to be a revival, you know what I mean? Yeah, because uh it fulfills whatever some sort of like desire that you have to be relevant in the world. And I think that's the problem is that the church is attempting to be relevant in ways that I don't think the gospels or the disciples have ever intended us to be. And so, because of that relevance, we attach ourselves to the empire in ways that are quite dangerous and toxic. And so, if you were to ask me what's the state of the church, I would I would say on if I were to be kind, I would say not good. If I were to be extremely dramatic, I would say there is no church. Woo! I would say there is What do you mean by that? There's a Christendom. There's a there's a what is this over here?

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Um what is that thing? It looks like a snail thing. I think these are like little tiny homes that they've built. It's like a whole little commune, a little community of Yeah. Or about Hillsborough area and uh weird random stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

I would say that um what masquerades as a church is actually Christendom, which is the Empire's version of Christianity done in a way that pleases the Empire. And so there's no real distinctiveness from the things that the Empire one promotes, markets, and endorses. Yeah. And it's not that I I think we should just be contrarians for contrarian's sake. I think these are things that I think the gospel tells us to abstain from. Or things that the empire that the gospel tells us to pursue and we don't pursue. And so I I just feel we're too tethered in a way. Now, when I say we, I'm thinking of more like Western church, the Western Christian Church, both Protestant, mainline, evangelical, and maybe to some degree Catholics in this country. Yeah. Are all tethered to the Empire in ways that in order for them to really detach themselves from this empire, it would cause cessive bleeding. But probably necessary in the sense to find a cure for this disease. So anyway, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

So how do you I mean because you are in this, um you are uh able to be a prophetic voice here. How do you navigate being kind of a prophet critiquing it without the the Empire um coming after you? Um so you know I I I could I could the the the wolves that are like you know clearly wolves, we we can we can discard those. Like the like the wildly Christian nationalist people are like okay, that's fine. They're wild. Um Paula White, wild. Um but the the people who are kind of slowly complicit because they're scared if they speak up, if they say something, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Folks who will be like their paycheck is now you're extreme, like it's not a no need to go that far. Right. Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah, that's understood.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Yeah, so how do you like like do you know, like, if I say something here, this is gonna be the you know, this is good, this this is not gonna go over well. These this the CD sales may not go well. Yeah, yeah.

Church And Empire Critique

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Well, I've long given up the desire to see my life thrive because of sales. Or um, yeah, I just I just don't I don't I I've never it's never really benefited me. And years ago I learned that uh if I'm only concerned with the pleasing of people, I'll just be continue to be subjected to their approval in a way that leads them to be my Lord and not Jesus. And so I think I think there's a lot of um I think history has shown us people who have been faithful prophetically and also at the same time maintain great hope. And I think that's the one thing that I try is that I love the church. I love Jesus' bride. I also recognize its damages, its stains, and I don't want to critique and not be a part of it. So I still go to church, I still try to be very active community. I wish it looked very differently, I wish we even practice our gatherings differently. I wish we talked differently. I think because we're so attached, and I think when I communicate, as you say, in this prophetic way, I'm ready for the pushback. And so it doesn't really intimidate me. It's more like how do I not only just critique, but how do I live it? Yeah. And so my my challenge to myself has been show, don't just be an idealist, like be a practic a pragmatist as well. Like be somebody who's a practitioner of the things you believe. Yeah. And so I am trying to, in some ways, flesh out what does it look like to live the life that I am calling us to live outside and detached from the empire? And in some ways, as we talked about music, some of that is the intentionality of not trying to be ever present because social media tells us to feed into the algorithm. What does it mean to just be slow? What does it mean to be patient? What does it mean to put people over commodities? What does it mean to be the priesthood of all believers? What does it mean to not just preach at the poor, but to be in fellowship with them and to be in solidarity with these people? What does it mean to actually care for the neighbor, the immigrant, the widow, the orphan? How can I use my resources and are they my resources? You know what I mean? Like, should I be buying certain things? Should I be patronizing certain things? Yeah. And so all these things that I wrestle with every day. Um my consumption I feel is is decreased. My interaction and certain things that I feel are distractions have decreased. Uh, I'm trying to get to a more minimal life. I'm trying to get to a place where my even the intentionality and how my wife and I and our family lives is more gospel-centered, not just to the fact that we have hospitality, but I'm saying like our home is not our home, it is God's home, and how can we use our our home as a blessing? You know what I mean? So it's just I I I there's a lot there, and it's not easy. And I don't expect Christians to just make that transition tomorrow, but I just think first we have to realize that we are influenced. Yes. That's the first. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Step one is the realization that the fish is in the water, that we are swimming in this empire, and most aren't ready to admit that yet. Um but I think you said something that made me think about because it there was this wave of momentum, it felt like coming into um, you know, seeing some justice and some change happen in America. Um, and then COVID hit. Um there was uh even then there was like some uh you know, with George Floyd, it seemed like there was movement towards, hey, maybe the church is really ready to make some reckoning and maybe some um, you know, far be it, uh uh repentance. Um and then it just feels like it's just that's the pendulum swung. And I don't know, I I feel like there was uh an enthusiasm that has since died down. Um and kind of what was your you meant you mentioned that you you are you are part of a church, what was your kind of like personal experience? It's like one thing to be like um you know the church at large, but like what was your kind of personal experience with your turn your church during that time?

SPEAKER_00 51:07

My experience wasn't good actually. I um I felt like my church wasn't doing enough, and I actually left my church because of that, and that actually led me down a pretty dark space, but for the sake of the story, um I I I did. I felt like there were certain churches, and there was a sensitivity at large that I thought was pretty helpful to progress our racial discussions in a direction that could create at least some solidarity or charity in the in in regards to maybe we could influence local governments, institutions, and even our federal government to consider and rethink certain things. And the I guess you can say the blessing and the burden of that is that when there's a particular zeitgeist in society, corporations, people with influence feel the weight of that as well, and they begin to lean in that direction. Yeah. Well, when that zeitgeist is removed, and when those things aren't as imperative as they once were, yeah, then those corporations. It's just performative. Yeah. We put it on the NFL field, and racism. And sometimes I don't care. I'm fine with performative. I don't like it. It's better than if it gives me certain things. I don't care if your heart changes, as long as you just stop beating your wife. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, sure. Um certain things are good for society, yeah, even if the person's heart does not change. Yeah. Now, I don't think Christians can expect the empire to not act like the empire. Yeah. And so I think part of the the problem is is our expectation. And so now what I do find interesting is when the church or when Christians who operate in the space of like influencer or people of power, when their heart doesn't change or when they can't see um the benefit of this kind of gospel solidarity, then that then that, yeah, that is a problem. Even if um it's for a short period of time, good, but you you would hope that the gospel would impress their hearts to a way in a way that would lead to some substantive change. But also, I just don't expect the world to act as I expect the church to act. Right. You know what I mean? Right. And so there were moments when you would see universities, Christian universities, seminaries, yeah, they would, they were participating in these acts of solidarity, and it was beautiful. And to some degree. I mean, some of it was still like not enough. It was like, you know, yeah, we'll give certain scholarships, and it's like, but what if they don't want to go to your seminary? Why don't you just give people scholarships to go to your you know, anyway, that's neither here nor there. But the point is that at least that is a good gesture to begin with. Yeah. But then once there are people who don't find it uh beneficial to act in this manner anymore, they create a new cultural momentum, yeah, and that influences people to put their hands back in their pockets. Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

So was that kind of that realization seeing your your church, you said you left the church. It was around not speaking into these issues of justice.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Right. It they not enough. Yeah, not to say they weren't speaking, it just wasn't enough for me. Yeah. I was like, the church should be, and I'm not saying I'm I'm I'm correct. I've I've I've in a lot of ways repented and went back to that church now. But we're not doing enough. We need to be out protesting, we need to be out doing this, we need to be speaking out in the pulpit. You need to call this person out by name, you need to say this, you need to say that. Um we need to have classes around these issues, you know what I'm saying? And so it was just it I was overwhelming. I was overwhelmed. I was obnoxious and I was overwhelming.

Justice Work Without Love

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Oh my goodness, I would love for that. So we were, you know, if you know our a lot of our story with uh our our church, we we began in 2019 um as a PCA Acts 29 church plan. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and while beginning that, we're speaking into some of these issues. We're trying to call these things out. And so we would have people um, maybe like yourself, saying, Hey, we need to be speaking louder. Yeah. And then we'd have the the denomination be like, stop speaking on these things. It's too loud. Yeah. It was just like this constant, like, you know, but at some point we were like, you know, for us to love our neighbor, we have to speak on these issues. Like, it just seemed like a no-brainer. Now, I think there's like a maybe some of our people in our congregation, not you, uh, um, that would say, like, no, you need you to call the people by name or whatever, and then I was like, well, you know, I don't but we we did call our you know our our Trump out and called what he was doing as antichrist. Um that probably that probably led to some of our exit out of the PCA.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I can imagine that. Um but I will say this, it's I don't think it was just it wasn't just that I was demanding people to speak out. I think my greatest issue, and I have this great I have this issue with people today, is that there's there's a difference between being an activist and then being an activist with zero hope and love. There's a difference between saying, I I think we should do justice, but justice detached from love is just condemnation. And I lived with condemnation on my tongue.

unknown 56:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

And that is not the way of Jesus. And so Jesus calls us to love our enemies. Jesus had the zealot interacting with the tax collector. And in my world back then, that would have never been able to happen. Because there the rate of change wasn't happening quick enough. Yeah. It's like, but he still works for the for the governor. Like, what's happening? Do something. Like either that or he cannot be with us anymore. He cannot claim to be a part of this crew if he still works for the Romans. Right. And so, um so anyway, all that to say, it led me not only away from the church, but in all in a lot of ways, de facto kind of led me, uh, led me away from the Lord. Because I had only at that time, for a period of about two, three years, I really only read the Bible to win arguments. Yeah. Yeah. To to study things for the purposes of speaking, um, to shame white people or particular political parties. Yeah. And although I was reading a whole bunch of thoughtful people, non-Christians, I took on their anger and I took on their rage. Yeah. And you can't do justice work and not also at the same time have the love of Christ in you. Because you'll just walk around swinging a sword and you'll just chop heads off. Yeah. And uh I think that's what Peter was doing in the garden. And Jesus is like, hey bro, shit. Put away your sword. I got this. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um, there are other ways in which we're gonna have this.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

And so Yeah, I think that's that's a good. I mean, I think I'd be I'll read some of the non-Christian sociological critiques and go like, yes, it's the right diagnosis, but I'm not sure it's got the full justice picture at hand here, where I'm like, so I think it's it's right for us to read, you know, absolutely Kendi and whoever and go like, hey man, uh I we need to hear this. But then I'm like, but I'm not sure I have the we have the full picture of what because I I we had the I had the that same you know desire to like just not burn it down, but we had people who are like people within our church they're like no, let's let's do that, let's let's tear it apart, and like, but at the same time, like let's disentangle what's you know been added to the faith, but let's not throw the faith out.

Trump Images And Church Cooperation

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Yeah, and that's the part that I think that yeah. I think in some ways we gotta figure out what is the faith and what has been entangled. Because there's certain things we would say are entangled, but I would say no, that's not even the faith. And so though it here the the beautiful thing about my I guess exodus or the I won't say the beautiful thing, the graceful, the merciful thing about that particular exit is that I believe I had done my racial deconstructing a decade before. So I had I I knew I was black until like as a young age. So when I became a Christian, like wrestling with what it meant to be black and to care about black historians, black history, I I kind of came to a healthy conclusion around 2012. Like I was like, oh Jesus, I trust in you. And it's that's the Jesus of Norway, by the way. There you go, there you go. That's very Nordic. Sorry. And um random billboard for you guys who listen. And so uh I didn't I never wrestled with like who I was in like during 2018, 2028, you know. Because I had wrestled with all that back when I became a like first when I became a Christian, and then maybe a decade after I became a Christian, like what it meant to actually be holistically who show is. And that's why I kind of told you earlier in the music, it's like I'm bringing my whole self to my music, and that was in 2011 and 2012, when I and Talent Intense was that kind of coming out partying. And so eight to ten years later, when COVID happens, like everybody's like just realizing that they're black in the Christian space. I'm like, well, I I could have told y'all this about it. So it's not my my my issue is not necessarily my discovering the blackness, it's realizing that the people who said they were in solidarity with you are actually only using you for as mercenaries for coach boards. Yeah. And so don't act like you didn't benefit from it, because you did. You're just mad that um you you you look back and you're ashamed. A lot of that is the shame of being used by them. Um but you had agency, and this is what you chose, and so now what do you do? Yeah, and I think sometimes some of us swing the pendulum all the way to the other side and um operate in a dangerous space of condemnation. Or as you put it, like some people just walk away from the faith altogether. Yeah, and see that. Yeah, and it's a it's a sad idolatry of self that I think is plagued not only the the the opposition who led you to want to revolt, but now you are becoming the very thing that you were voting against. So, how did you navigate going back? So you went back to that church? Yeah, I just sin. My sin. Okay. I can't imagine uh my yeah, my heart, and then realizing that I was dying, like I was I man, like if if if you've ever lived in sin as a Christian, yeah, there's there's praise God for the spirit because there's this it's weird, it's like you're living in a tomb and you know it's like I don't belong, but I'm alive though. It's like why am I in this tomb and I'm alive? I feel restricted, everything is suffocating. I can't enjoy I can't laugh the same anymore. I can't like compliments don't hit because I know there's there's a secret I have. Yeah. Um, I can't speak with conviction anymore because there's a secret I have. Yeah I can't counsel people in the way I want to counsel people, and so I just said, you know what? The only way it's gonna get me out of here is confession and repentance. And I know I'm not gonna find a community that is ideal for me, that is the perfect community. So I just gotta go back to a place where I know, but deal with the devil I know, I guess. And I hate to use it like that because if somebody from my church is listening, I don't consider you the devil. No, I'm just saying, like, you know, uh, it just wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

But I I think I know you you have your experience. Um, but I think those listening and all of us have a a struggle with sometimes trying to lock arms bound him with the people in our church when you go, are we really on the same team? Did you struggle with that? Like, are we are we fighting the same fight?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

Are we you know Yeah, there were years, it was there were times when I felt like we were on the same team, but I think I matured at least enough in that period where I I never asked the question of we were on the same team. I asked the question, now look, your church experience is maybe very different from my church experience, so I'm just telling you. Yeah. There were people in my particular, if you're talking about local church, I'm answering in regards to local church. Yeah. I didn't ask if they were on the same team. I just I just didn't know if they had the same like work ethic that I had. It's like, are you guys in the gym as much as I'm in the gym? I I I don't skip like that. Yeah, I was like, I had a Kobe mentality. I was like, you guys don't really want to win. Like, you guys are just cool with playing the games and getting a chat. And I'm like, no, I I want to win. Like I want to dominate the opposition. And so that was more of it. It's like, I know we're on the same team. Okay. But you guys aren't really playing hard enough. I don't want to pass you the ball. Yeah. But there were years where I felt like, no, we're not on the same team. Like you. But I will say there are people who call themselves Christians that I will say, oh no, they're definitely on a different team, but they won't make any bones about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:29

And I think that's where I feel like I struggle, and I'm I'm I've I wrestle with this as a as a pastor locally in Waco. Um, like there are churches in our city that I'm like, I don't know. Are we are we on the same team? And I I I I want to give everyone like so much you know, runway of grace, because I just know like I've I've messed up so big, and I've said things I'll I want to take back. So I'm like I'm not gonna c go out frequently or liberally condemn um other churches, but maybe that's just some stuff that you're like, how? How are we still in 2026 saying you you can't be a Christian and some and vote Democrat? There's a church in our city that says that. Right. And there's there's the I mean, did you see recently the I'm sure you've heard the dust up, but with uh Trump and the Pope, JD Vance telling the Pope he needs to think better about himself theologically, uh what his words weigh his words a little more theologically. Um but then did you did you see the the image of Jesus as or uh Trump as Jesus? Yes. Did you think that was Jesus? Um like a version of it, or did you think that was uh a doctor?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

No I don't even understand why this is even a question. There's so many people, it there's no like I've never seen a doctor dress like that. In a robe, in a white robe with a little red shawl?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

Like the best uh explanation I heard was um he went out to wherever he was doing the interview, and they said someone said to him, Hey, tell them that the image was doctored. And then he came out and said that he was a doctor, and I was like, that actually makes the most sense to me, because there's no way you look at the image and go, oh, I was gonna be a doctor. Like that to me makes the most sense that he just said, no, no, yeah, yeah, there was the Red Cross and whatever else he'd said that to make it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:35

Oh gosh, he's a he is a master manipulator. He is. Because when you can get people who are absolutely certain of a thing to see the thing that they're absolutely certain of and say, no, that's not it. That's witchcraft, my friend. He is a warlock party. A warlock unknown. So yeah. Um But that's the part.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

I just I I struggle with how to how to lock arms with other churches that are continue to say he is Well, I think my my question to you would be is why do you feel like you have to?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

Like I think we live peaceably with people. Yeah. But that doesn't mean you have to lock arms with people. Yeah. Like I I I I think Artemis and Paul is a great example. It's like, hey, you do your thing, I'm gonna do mine.

Tacos Buc Ees And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

That's true, that's true. There there was one church that um uh we we we they had asked us to do some uh some joint venture together, and they were gonna put our churches, both of our church names on it as an outward thing, and I was like, you know, that's gonna be a step too far that we're doing this as like our joint thing, and so I did say like hey, I'm not comfortable with that. And that was that was uh, you know, people felt like that was not a good choice, uh, some thought. Um, but I feel like I felt I still feel right with that. Uh I think why I feel that is not necessarily to lock arms like that. That was like, yeah, I don't really want to lock arms, but more of a do I see them and more just like wrestling theologically as corrupt uh corrupted Christianity, and or is it completely not Christianity at all? Because when it's like national, you know, we talk about Christian nationalists, it's more nationalist than it is Christian. Absolutely. And I'm going, is that do I even consider them brothers in Christ when they are following whatever he says is their new line? And I'm like, I don't know. That's not really a question in there, that's just more me wrestling and going, oh Lord help deliver me. Well, since we've covered all the most important things, um and we ended with me lamenting I don't know what to do with uh with some Christians, let's head on something happier. Um what is the best food out there? Show? The best food? The best food. Like if you were like, if I go to any city, I gotta try out this.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:10

Like the city or like the food that is served in that city area. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:15

So let's say you're coming to Texas, you're here for a show tonight. When you come to Texas, are you like, I gotta get tacos or I gotta get brisket? Or what what is it?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

When I come to Texas, what am I well so I'm I have a very particular diet these days. I don't do a lot of red meat. Okay. So I'm not in a brisket. Okay. I never really was in a brisket, tell you the truth. Yeah, wow. I'm not a fan of Whataburger. No, that's okay. I am a fan of In N Out. You are a fan of In N Out? I'm a huge fan of In N Out. Wow. I grew up in Southern California. There you go, okay. So I moved away. I'm not big on In N Out, but that's okay. I'm I'm fine with people not understanding the greatness of In N Out. I moved away from California at a young age and uh and I you know In N Out didn't start becoming outside of like the West Coast until like five, six, seven years ago, I guess. Yeah. And so when I would go to like a Texas and see an In N Out, I'd be like, well, let me get some In N Out. Yeah. So anyway, that would be one, but yeah, I will say tacos. Anywhere I can get a good taco. Come on. Oh, you speak my language. Love it. Is I mean, I can eat tacos for the rest of like every day for the rest of my life and be satisfied. Amen. Amen. Breakfast, lunch, dinner. Yeah. Now there are there are certain types of tacos. Yeah. And I'm not mad at any of them. Uh I love the gentrified taco. I'm a fan of the fancy gentrified kind of hipster taco. Yeah. But the authentic taco. Okay. The double corn with your choice of meat, cilantro and onion. That's right. That's right. Straight, street taco. Yep. Uh like you can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

You can't go alone. That's good. So I think I know we're doing for lunch. I think I know we're doing for lunch. But because you answered correctly, this was uh this was a true false, uh, the right or wrong. Gotcha. Uh well I got it correct. This is like the show uh Oprah, and if you look under your seat, um, actually behind you here, um, we're giving you uh your own Texas uh bag from Bucky's. Uh but because you come to Texas, you gotta get something from Bucky's, you gotta get their beaver nuggets. Alright, so what are these? What are beaver nuggets? No one really knows what beaver nuggets are. Um brown sugar.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:33

I had corn milk, that's what they want. Corn syrup, brown sugar. The first two ingredients.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

If you don't, like I don't think this is healthy. It's definitely not healthy, but it's uh it's definitely a monkeys thing. Uh I don't think you get a natural ingredient into the very bottom. It's so bad. It's so bad. And then there's uh glazed uh pecans as well as uh tell pecans. I'm a fan of pecans. Uh yeah, there's uh the mammoth pecans is not. Yeah, because everything's second.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:05

And these are what? These are glazed pecans. Those are taking me back to New Orleans. Oh, I grew up in New Orleans and uh I lived in New Orleans for some years. And pecan and prey lanes and things like that were ooh. I mean, not good for your teeth. Not good for your teeth for yourself. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:21

Bad for your teeth, good for yourself. Well, uh, thank you for uh abiding by the the drive back to to Waco for a podcast. Yeah and for all y'all listening in, thank you for listening in. If you uh we'll make sure we uh put some links to shows uh music and books and uh articles uh and where you can learn more. Hey, you're probably not gonna be listening to this prior to tonight's show, but hopefully you came out to tonight's show. Um but we're looking forward to have hosting him at Mosaic Waco. Uh we'll see you guys all on another episode of Theology Pieces uh with Malcolm. Back uh in two weeks. Alright, talk to y'all later.