Welcome Back And May Exhaustion

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Back from the dead. We out here. Resurrection power in our midst. Someone's calling me right when we started. We are doing it live and I'm putting on Do Not Disturb. Absolute Audacity. Absolute audacity. We have a very professional podcast here, Malcolm.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

That's us. That's like the main adjective that I think of when I think of our podcast as professional.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Is it?

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Aww. Yep. Well, if if you feel the same, uh, make sure you uh write in with that. Hey, welcome to Theology Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your host, Slim Ann. Malcolm. Today we're gonna talk about sanctuary struggles and uh a theology of immigration and belonging. Uh so we're gonna talk a little bit that, but uh yeah, it's been a little too long, Malcolm. We have not connected in forever.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

What have we done?

SPEAKER_02 1:25

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

It's you know why?

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Why?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

It's because it's May.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

And May is the worst.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

It is the worst. I'm tired, Slav.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

May is so hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

I'm tired of you. I'm tired of everything. Uh okay. Just kidding. Love you. Hey everybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Someone wants to come guest host. Feel a little insecure right now. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

You're fine. Just keep going.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Um, well, hello. Yes. No, May is always one of these months that I love and hate. It's like December with Christmas, where it's so fun, so much to celebrate. But for us, May, we have birthdays, we have Mother's Day, we have anniversary at the end, we have another birthday at the end in June. Um, and so just there's so much in the end of the school year stuff, and it's just I'm I'm like, oh, I'm too

Pastoral Sabbatical And Learning Rest

SPEAKER_01 2:20

tired.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

It's a lot, bro. But you're are you tired, Malcolm? Yes, I'm very tired.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

What?

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Yes, yes, I am. What why would you ever be tired? I'm tired, bro. You've been in there's been a lot going on for the last few years. So I'm tired.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Malcolm is tired, has has hit seven years in pastoral ministry. Also that. Let's give him a round of applause. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

That's really weird to think about. That's really that that is see, framed that way. That's that's a long, that's a long time.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

In that while. Seven years.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

And uh, as uh our our the church likes to do every seven years, uh a pastor will take a sabbatical, and so Malcolm is about to go on his sabbatical next week. Um and it's gonna be great. Uh you it's the original idea. Uh so my first sabbatical was uh a month long, and so we said, hey, the next one will be three months, and so Malcolm's here is gonna be a month long. But you know, if if at the end of the month Malcolm's like, still don't feel sabbatized.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Let's turn this into a year. Just kidding. Just kidding. Only a little bit. Uh fine.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

But I I I I do said so. You're telling me it's it's a welcome, a welcome time. It doesn't feel like we're pushing you out.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

So this is so this is an interesting thing. Because like there, there were I sometimes when I talk to people, like they talk about people where like their pastors decide to take sabbaticals and like the congregation gets mad. And I'm like, what huh? I mean, like I get it. Love people. I I mean like for I mean for us there's the there's the advantage of there being two of there being two two pastors. So it's not like it's not like people will be without a shepherd. Also, I mean, Slim, you're a wonderful, wonderful pastor, which I was telling you yesterday because you're you're great. Now I look up to you as a pastor. Um but like it's I I don't understand it. I think that the uh I think that rest, I mean for me, rest is very, very important as a as a thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Uh we don't do it, we don't do it enough mostly because of neoliberal capitalism. And and so um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Maybe not what I wanted. Maybe but it it kind of worked.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah, I mean, I guess. Um, but uh yeah, no, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be hardcore arresting over the course of June.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Are you?

SPEAKER_02 4:44

It's gonna be great. Because I I okay, well, for like half of it. I hear. Okay, well, like okay, like half of it. Half of it.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

I say that hardcore.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Well, like maybe it's like part of it is a week of teaching an intensive class at another seminary. But that's it's fine. It's fine. Everything will be fine. I'm just gonna tell the class and be like, hey guys, so I'm on sabbatical, so you're getting half of me right now. So I'm winging it. If y'all can just like talk about these texts and I'll like poke it every once in a while, cool. What do you think it means? Hey. I mean, they're talking about my book, so it's just like, oh hey, so what are you That's great? Yeah, so it's not like I have to do a whole bunch of new stuff, it's all stuff I've read before. Yeah.

Absurd News And Quitting Social Media

SPEAKER_01 5:25

So um, well, so it's been it's been a month since we've we've recorded. Um, I mean, I'd say a month ago, everything as it was is as it is, right? Nothing's really changed. We're still in a war with Iran.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Uh that any day now we will be out of. Sure. Um we're we're still in I believe you. We're still in this uh capitalistic society that any day we'll be out of. Yeah. I mean, you know. Uh-huh. Um, so there's there's always like the the burning moment of the day to respond to. There's been things like um, oh, there was uh uh oh the guy who wrote uh the the there was the the big uh 250 uh rededication thing.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Yes, rededicate 250, yes. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yes. Um America. And there was a there was a pastor, or no, a theo what was the guy, who was the author who uh um uh Metaxis. Oh who said you know, like oh no the big prayer of that that that finally the Lord was answering the prayer to have the billion dollar ballroom.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Later he may have said something like that was like it was kind of a jest, but it was hard to tell. And I don't know if people there understood it. That could be a jest as well. Like, yes. So there's just like so there's like a daily barrage of like just absurd news that you're like, do you do you even need to like recap? Like we've we can just need we can just move on.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

I wish.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

I don't I wish. Um, and one one way to help move on um is you know, I I I've I told y'all I I'm I took this social media off my phone and it's been a liberating, freeing thing. I should do that. Uh um I still have it on on my computer. Um, but you know, so the one thing that it does do though, it does make it hard for me to find our our weekly segment, weekly, monthly, monthly segment of however one of y'all knew I we needed some help. Uh Joshua um tweeted

Combat Gear Pastor And Gun Theology

SPEAKER_01 7:35

to uh tweeted it, what do you say on threads? I don't know threaded, sure. Towards Malcolm. This looks like something Slim should feature on terrible tweets. And so, uh, let's let's watch this video. It's uh from or this from Christian Nightmares. It's that simple. Take it from the pastor who wears combat gear to deliver sermons. And since you can't see this on video, there is a pastor at a pulpit in full military garb, um with you know the the vest, and he is he is rocking a sidearm on his on his hip.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

God's kingdom and the demonic kingdom has been in a battle, an ancient struggle since the dawn of mankind up into the present. So where we see all these wars and skirmishes, what I need you to understand is all the wars that we see in our day and prior, there's actually just one great war that's behind all of them. Behind every earthly battle is a greater spiritual battle that's warring.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

This is We can stop there because it it's he goes on basically reiterating the same thing. Um and Malcolm I were both I agree. That's actually not I agree with that. That was a lot of our sermons uh during um um Revelation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

I agree with it.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

It's just that way to go, dude.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Way to go.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

We are on the same page.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Now, now we both know because of this segment that that's not how they film. Um but like, but uh, but but then I see you with your American military uh uniform and your sidearm, and I'm like, I don't I don't think those words mean what do you mean with those words what I would say if I mean those things, because I feel like you probably and like once again, like you know, I don't like commenting on things out of uh out of context. So it might not be true that you think that, you know, America's on the right side of that, uh, or any nation is on the right side of that uh of that of that cosmic war. Uh, but I have suspicions. Yeah. I have suspicions.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Do you think it's appropriate for a pastor to wear a gun to the pulpit?

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

What what could be a problem with with bringing a a firearm, a weapon into the pulpit?

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Uh because the purpose of guns is to kill people, and that is not what Jesus does.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Uh that's not the purpose of guns.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

It is the only thing they do. It's like the thing that they do.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

You could shoot cans with them.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

You could you could shoot targets at the the firing range.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Yeah, uh-huh. You you can. Yeah, you can. But I don't think I don't think he was wearing one with uh because with the with the I I only shoot cans with this thing uh vibe.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

It's just so weird to go into the pulpit like cosplaying as this military person. It's America. Who knows? Maybe he has that in his background. I don't know enough about him. Um we again, what he said, we would agree with. So like good job there. Uh it's just it's a little rough watching that. Uh, but the uh related post under that um was from um the the person saying, you know, related post, Christian nationalist combat gear for imaginary wars. Yeah, dangerous but good. Dangerous but good. So if you are looking for the if you don't have the right uh outfit picked out yet, go check out Dangerous but good. Oh my gosh. As it is a a faith-driven uh clothing apparel company that is um equipping you to wear the right type of garb to carry you into any com combat situation, whether it be uh in the Middle East or on Sunday morning picking up the coffee, dropping off the kids at the nursery.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say the one thing that I'm always gonna say whenever we have reference to like the military and violence and stuff, which is that uh it when I when I think of the early church, I do not think of uh I don't think of a community that was thinking about uh how do like even even under persecution, the the the question was not how do we defend ourselves. The question was how do we train ourselves to be a people who are ready to die? And that and that set of and that set of questions is a set of questions that we particularly as Americans are not equipped are not equipped to answer by our by our churches. It's a how do I protect my way of life? How do I protect ah blah blah blah blah? And and and and not and all of that really anxiety um comes from the fact that we don't actually uh we don't actually trust the Lord um with our with our lives, which is which is precisely what he has told us to do. Um and so like gun culture comes out of that, uh the way that we view our economy comes out of that, it's out of this deep, deep spirit of self of self-protection. Yeah um so that's my indictment.

Just War Theory Meets Modern Drones

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Speaking of uh military, um and did you see the Pope's uh encyclical sure did on It was fire. What I thought it was mainly just about AI.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

It's about a lot of stuff, it's about Catholic social teaching, like in in general.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

But it then touches on uh the just war. Yeah. And he says that's outdated. Just war theory is not like needs to be you know tweaked or whatnot. It says it's completely outdated.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Which is, I mean, I think a lot, I mean, the popes have been saying similar things for a little while, but it's also because I mean, like, war looks different now than it did, for example, when Augustine uh narrated just war. But also, I mean, for me, it's it's always been um uh the I mean just war theory has always technically been fraught because you can't really point to any actual just wars. Definitely not in American history.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Um and so uh so yeah, but it's it's it's great to see it in a papal encyclop encyclical. It's also it's also great to see uh an apology for particularly the Pope's role in the transatlantic slave trade.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

That's also good.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Also, I think the first time you've seen that kind of thing. Because you know, one of the things that I even I press in the anti-Greek gospel is that, you know, integral to uh integral to the continuation of that trade was religious justification for that economic exploitation. So to see uh to see to see the Pope like say that, say that we'll well at least give at least give a kind of formal apology for it, that's that's encouraging to see.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Yeah. Yeah. And some of the some of the things, I mean won't m this could be probably its own podcast of kind of reviewing it, but just like the the pillars of just war, which Knockman I would also, like you said, like it's already built on you know fraught theology. But you know, it's a a last it has to be something that's a last resort, a just cause, a valid authority, uh probable success, proportionality, uh, and an exit strategy. And so some of the reasons he's saying it's outdated is because of the the advance of drones and automated uh technology so that it takes the human element out of it, and therefore you don't have someone who's um making the decision on is this the last resort that I expect, or is it you're just you're just killing is it just automatic? Um is it is it proportional? Um you know those things, and I think he m he cites a couple different things there of what makes it not you know, makes it uh not just anymore. Um and we would say like we would lean more onto the pacifist uh you know side of this of saying like well, okay, is there a way to lay lay on your own sword to end the fighting, to end this? Um but ca in line with that guy's the uh that preacher's idea, because there is a greater war out there, and it's not just between these two nations, it's between good and evil, between principalities and powers and baby. Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Powers and principalities, baby.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah, yeah. There's some other stuff there. Um and there's some other things uh in our let's stay an up-to-date section that I I wouldn't put in the terrible tweets section, uh, but just things that uh I I think it'd be good for us to touch on before we get to our conversation uh with um with Diane. Um you sent me an email or a text, and I hate it when you send me a text. Not because I hate when you send me a text, but you usually send me these articles that I know I'm gonna disagree with. Uh-oh. Oh no. Which I love. What are we talking about? Because you don't send me like, hey, here's what we already agree on. Let's let's let's high-five each other.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Oh, yeah, no, I don't do that at all. I'm here to

Screen-Free Church And Attention Discipline

SPEAKER_02 16:15

challenge you. That's one of the things I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

You sent me one from Brad East uh from Christianity Today. It says, A vision for a screen-free church.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yes. And I didn't even click it on at first. I was like, oh gosh. All right, Malcolm, I know what you're gonna say. I know what this is gonna say. Yeah, so I came in very, very uh uh skeptical. Um but the idea behind it is what is the cost of our digital tools and worship? Um and uh you know, what are they what are they shaping us into over time? Um so like our question we we we must ask as pastors, um, but also um we are I'm considering um actually we just uh we are uh my oldest son turned 16 and we just allowed him to have social media. Dun dun dun yeah, that does need a You let the demon in your home. I know there it is. That's the ominous that we need. Um but the the the question uh is is around us as well. And so one of the ways that for us personally, uh as parents thinking about this with our with our our our kids is hey, before we give them this thing that isn't neutral, um, but it is a part of the ethos of society, sure. Let's make sure he's as prepared and aware of the dangers on all sides. Sure. Um and so we um showed him like three different TED talks. Um but the one that I think that was most helpful was not really a TED talk, it was a it was the the social dilemma on on Netflix. Oh, okay, yeah. And I didn't realize it's funny, the thing came out you know a couple years ago, and the amount of presidents of some of these companies that are involved in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, oh, president of Facebook, president of Instagram, president of like or higher ups.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

They're like, we we wouldn't let our kids have smartphones.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah. And you're just like, it is all just a data mining tool.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Oh, that's literally its whole purpose. I mean, like, I mean, you talk to people who work who work at Facebook, or even people who like stuff, not Facebook, Meta, because that's what it's called now, and you're like, what does Meta do? And it like what it does is it monetizes your attention. Like that's where that's how they make their money. They that it's just it's a data mining operation that they then sell to advertisers, and that's and they and they use machine learning in all the videos and pictures that you post, they mine that data to find out what are the things that they can sell to you, and that's how they that's how they make their money.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

And I've heard that, and it hasn't bothered me when I heard that. I'm like, so that oh, sure, that doesn't sound great.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

If the product is free, you're the product. Go ahead. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

That's that's the big line. And then I'm like, sure, but I've that I'm like, if the result is that tailors you to give give me more of those like recommended for you options at the uh at the this purchasing part, I'm like, well, I did need that, so I don't mind that.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

That doesn't bother me. It should. Um I know it's making me more susceptible to to pay for things, but um, that part did not bother me. It was the amount of hey, they have if if if you are the product, you are not knowing or you are not engaged with our app as much as we want you to be. Let's make sure you get this buzz and this nudge and this this wave and all of and they they they they make this dramatized version of this and it it's kind of absurd uh in the in the thing. But there is a you know, there is a a real version of that where my phone constantly buzzes. And even if it's just the one little buzz that says, you know, New York Times article, this is what happened today. It does take my mind away. Sure does. And so going back to this article, a few times that happens during church.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

And with my Apple Watch connected, I may not look at my phone, but then my my and I just just the the quick glance, and then you go, what were we singing?

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

What was Malcolm saying?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

You know, that that's See, that's the main issue that it distracts you from my servants.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

That's the thing. I'm like people, it's gold, Slayer. It's gold. And so the the article makes the strong claim that digital technology may be one of the greatest threats to the church.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Boom.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Um how do you react to that framing? Do you think that's true? Yeah. That does feel a very big thing. The the greatest threat.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

It's a pretty significant threat. Anything that takes us, I mean, that's that's the thing, like anything that we have this opportunity, I think, once a week. Uh I mean, for most of us, we only do, we only go once a week. Um, but to go to church to not only worship with the people of God, but to take of the body and blood of Christ and like like like all these things. Like you like you would think that we could just like just like just focus on the Lord for like an hour and a half, like even in even out of the week, like an hour and a half out of the week. But we can't we don't we we have been I mean, not only I mean really our attention spans have been so uh just atrophied to to the extent that like if we even made the suggestion, hey, before you come into the con before you come to the congregation, leave your phone, like leave your phone at the door and you can pick it up after after worship. The people that would likely freak out if we did that, and then to which my response would be like, why are you freaking out? Whatever happens in the next hour and a half, like that's okay. You can like you can handle it later. Like that's it's mind focused on the Lord. Like that, like that's like I don't think that's an I don't think that's an absurd thing to ask. Matter of fact, I'm gonna start I'm gonna I'm gonna start doing it at least personally. I'm not I'm not there. Think about discipline. Think about discipline just you gotta try it. You just gotta try it. You just gotta do it. And then like and then you find out that it's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

I had a line in that in that uh movie where it's like I don't this the reason I don't let my kids you know have social media is for the is for the same reason I don't carry cookies in my pocket. It's just too tempting. And something about that I think applies to the screens in church um conversation that I'm I'm I was very hesitant. I'm like this is the society. Like everyone has their phone and the amount of like how you talk about like you know advances in technology are helpful. You the amount of how helpful it is for someone to scan a QR code and enter information to like connect with the you and the church and to answer questions or to tithe or whatnot um the it's so much easier in this in this regard. And so I'm like but is it worth that distraction but is it good hey everything that's easy is good okay that's definitely always proved to be true.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Is it good?

SPEAKER_01 23:27

And so I'm like what would that mean? What would that look like? Because I I I I appreciate that uh he he uh whether he was doing it for someone like me or not but like kind of babying people through it like it it's how he it's how he does it articles in the in Christianity today are great. If it if you see this is this is I'm I'm gonna give a recommendation if you see Christianity today article written by Brad East I suggest it both times of the ones you send me and that's why I disagree and then I go maybe he's good he's a good writer anyway go ahead sorry and so he kind of gives some like you know baby step uh you know applications like hey don't go all out because that'll probably you you you'll scare people or whatever and people won't do it. But like at the very least um you know some of these like you know baby steps of you know not putting the QR codes on the screens so it's like it's telling people get your phones out. Yeah yeah or reading the Bible on your phone.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Don't say get your Bible app out.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

And so there because the the his illustration there that I've I don't think I ever say get your Bible on your phone or whatever. But I I have you know with we tip say you know you know scan the QR code or whatnot I have thought about that where even if it doesn't buzz if I've turned off notifications but the minute the minute you open it up and then you and you're like oh my mom text me. I wonder what she's like it in it's just so quick for us to pull our attention away. And no wonder there's times we're like man I just don't feel like I'm experiencing God. Well we're distracted.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

You're distracted. So it's true uh so much of and the thing and it's the it's the I mean it's the it's the dopamine it's it's just the dopamine hits like we are we're also just like a really distracted people I this we were just we were just talking about this like when our kids talk about uh being bored yeah and like and and the fact that when they express and I didn't I didn't say this in our conversation but I'll but I'll say it but I'll say it here that when our kids say that they're bored, we feel guilty.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

I was telling you because I did feel guilty that's what you were telling me.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

But like that's the way that a lot of parents feel what and what that suggests is that we think about our job as making sure that our kids are entertained. And that's just not true. Like I don't believe that with my girls like I instead it's something that like that I am trying to train them out of because like when they say they're bored and I'm like okay figure out something to do. Like you like you have a brain you have an imagination there are ways that you can like somebody else watching on uh on Instagram they're like just like send your kids outside for like a half an hour and they'll figure out something to do. Like just say you can't come inside for 30 minutes and like and don't let them back inside like they'll be fine it's like but there's a but there's a but there's a muscle that needs to be built. Yeah um it's like this it's like this thing that I the the the the paragraph that I was reading you from a book uh beginning Beginning to pray where this guy's like hey just like take some time to just be alone with yourself and you'll probably get bored really quick because you realize just like you we realize not only have you never done that before, but you realize that so much of your life is just lived in reaction to stuff that you're just constantly looking for things to respond to as opposed to as opposed to kind of living living out of a fullness what you what what what we end up doing is living just constantly reacting to stuff, which is why we're so tired all the time. That's the other thing we're so tired all the time because we're spending all of our lives reacting goodness. Yeah so I'm going on sabbatical just be quiet.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

I think I think there's a happy medium for our kids than what like when I was a kid like the there's still like a nostalgia I've talked with other people in you know my age bracket however old that is um that uh it was like yeah when I was a kid like parents just said go outside and like figure it out and it was like eight hours unsupervised eight hours like I and I'm like man I got into a lot of trouble and and and I still lived and you're like oh that's fine I lived but you're like but then again there's like the the kids who got picked up by John Wayne Gacy. There were only a few of them the other thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

They were under the floorboard all right all right that's a whole other thing it got real dark real quick this is also why parents don't let their kids out because of what happened to statistically a few children. Yeah and so because of that there's this there there is now this paranoia kind of in parents for all of us are just like I can't let my kids out on uh unsupervised that's something that uh Trevor Noble was talking about this on a on a podcast it's like look if you got kids at the park like two of the parents can watch the kids and like the other parents can like interact with each other. Everybody doesn't need to like that time does not need to be spent with just your kids playing and you watching them like a hawk. That's tiring.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

That is tiring it's tiring you know what this meant this conversation's tiring oh man all right well hey I was not meant to insult you there.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

What a podcast this is we gotta make up for lost time we're getting we're

Meet Diane Garcia And Her Call

SPEAKER_02 28:45

just getting into heavy stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Hey we're about to bring on uh uh woman named Diane Garcia uh Diane uh uh leads and planted uh Iglesia Cristiana Roca de Refugio in April of 2023 um I think she started it with uh only four women uh four immigrants uh in San Antonio and uh she also started a nonprofit Nuevos Vecinos um as a an outreach ministry organization to to immigrant families and I got to meet her with um this group Faithworks that we were doing a uh our church has been sponsored to to receive this grant to be able to begin immigration ministry right here in in in mosaic but in in Waco as well. It's part of Faithworks's uh thriving congregation's immigration ministry program and uh we got to meet with her and some other churches in San Antonio on our trip to and our border trip to Mexico as well um and I was just astounded by the amount of work she does and I was like man I would love to have you on our our podcast to to just ask a hundred more questions so uh thankfully she uh graciously said yes and so uh let's let's bring her on now. All right ladies and gentlemen we are here joined by Diane Garcia hey thanks for being here yeah thanks so much for having to be with you all uh well we are overjoyed uh I feel like uh in the short amount of time I got to know you and uh hear your story I just realized I'm like I want to ask 500 more questions that I feel like I would capitalize on uh in this group and didn't want to make this all about me in this moment and so uh that's why we have our podcast that's right this is really this is why people do podcasts is to make it all about all about Slim wait wait wait wait wait what oh sorry what I was trying to make this a universal statement okay no that's fine now you're just throwing shades that's fine it's whatever well hey Diane uh can you share a bit about your story how you came uh to to pastor and start this uh uh this ministry in San Antonio yeah sure so I let's see where to begin I'm originally from New Jersey um my mom is from Ecuador so I've always had a connection to the immigrant story and immigrant and I came to Texas actually to teach and became really involved um in a church on the border was a Mennonite church loved it there and just really wanted to lean into that community and feel like I became a Mennonite even though I didn't know what that was before I came to Texas.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

And then came to San Antonio joined a Mennonite Church here which had an active immigrant ministry and felt very often there especially with those families you know through my personal connections my interest I think in people who have been on journey the law time and uh eventually became a pastor at that church and that eventually led to founding my own church with some of those families um specifically with this goal to provide a place of home and belonging for immigrants here.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

That's beautiful that's beautiful. Yeah I mean did is this something that you felt like uh 20 years ago you'd say this is where you're at uh this is what you're doing because I you know just saw your a little bit of your bio that you uh you have a background in chemistry from MIT and Harvard and all this you're like not the typical path I would have assumed.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Yeah a hundred percent not what I would have thought I would be doing. I mean there's like a chemistry aspect of it but also like as someone who went to you know did a lot of fancy education like I also like was an introvert and didn't really like talking to people not interested in public speaking. And that's basically my entire life right now is talking to people in public speaking and so for for a lot of reasons wasn't where I thought I would find myself but God has mysterious and amazing ways of of guiding us and and incredible plans about where we need to be and why and I feel like this is exactly where I need to be and I feel incredibly blessed to be here and like this was all perfectly planned that to have so that I can have just the skills and heart and mindset that I needed to serve this community through this.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Yeah that's beautiful. Yes sometimes uh you know there's there's something that that compels you to to step out from like your normal um what would make things comfortable but you're like ah this is like I just this sounds so beautiful this type of community I I I want to start it. Is that what you say or I don't want to put words in your mouth but like how how did you feel compelled to begin down this pathway to have uh you said or I read that the your church started with four immigrant women right yeah I think it really began with an idea of what we didn't want to be so at the other church where I was I felt there were a lot of really wonderful things about that church but I felt like the idea of the ministry was seen as something apart from the church and the families in the ministry were seen as separate from the church.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

And in my mind I wanted those two things to be the same. And so that's a lot of why I founded the church in the way that we did wanting to really empower families and think of immigrants as us and us as immigrants and that we're all in this together and that we're actually all creating something new. And so that was I shared that that idea with these other poor women I think we all felt very similarly that we really wanted a place where um immigrant families were the church and

Charity That Repeats Inequality

SPEAKER_03 34:55

um that's that's what grew out of that.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Sorry question what what what is it what is it about what is it about the conditions of this nation that makes that makes such a ministry necessary? Because if if we were because I I I I think about I think about you know even even just that even even that kind of beginning of a community is one that is um like it's it's it's something that is uh I think exacerbated by the way that by the way that this nation thinks about citizenship and the way that it treats especially the way that it treats the marginalized all these kinds of things what is it what is it about basically what is it about the conditions of this nation that require that essentially require a ministry like a ministry like yours because I think they do.

SPEAKER_03 35:49

Yeah that is such a big and deep question um and such an important one I mean what jumps to my mind is that we live in a system of injustice and inequality. We're all steeped in that and those that have power and privilege in our country bring that into their lives in every way including into their work to help others. You know when I think when people with power and privilege engage in charity if you want to call it that it can replicate the same systems of inequality through charity and hospitality work. And that's true in the church as well. And so what we wanted to do is break out of that system for everybody, right? For me, for the family like we all need to be liberated together and so I think it's that that need it's the need to be that we all need changing in this that freedom for others includes me being free from the chains of this system of inequality and injustice that also hold me down to that.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

I joke with I joke with Slim that uh if someone granted five years ago I would have answered this question a differently um but uh like if if someone were to ask me kind of what my quote unquote denominational identity would be, it would be like if I could be if I could be Orthodox but with a Mennonite political theology that's what I would that's what I would do. Just because like the account of the church as an alternative social political economic and spiritual community like that's that's profoundly compelling to me because one of the because the answer to a bro to a broadly diminutive and exploitative political economy is not well let's just like find ways to do capitalism better. No it's like the like the church the the Lord has the Lord has given us the body of Christ the church to be to be an alternative to then show to then show the world hey there's another way there's another way to live um that there that that that that there are ways to live in these deep relationships of solidarity of rec of recognizing that every human being that you come into contact with is a unique and unrepeatable icon of God and that and that then and that then means that I have a that that means that I have a particular responsibility to you in a way that inoculates me against paternalism and all like and all these and all these things that not only justify but bolster these systems that you're that you're talking about. The only way that people are going to see that is if we are is if we are that and and and that and that means uh our focus at least at least to me our focus ought not be on necessarily just kind of tweaking the systems that we're a part of but like thinking about what is it or what does it look like to to be communities that in obedience to Christ operate operate in the way that you've in the way that you've just outlined. So all that all all that's to say I hear the Mennonite thing and I was like yeah that's yeah I'm I'm with you.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

I'm with you so yeah we uh yeah I think that's something Mennonites see really well I was I think most people think of Mennonites as another type of Amish which also there are those Mennonites um but I think the modern Mennonite church held by MCUSA does peace and justice very well.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Yeah it's one of the it's uh and then sorry sorry sorry to interrupt you but the it's the um the we we use a few confessions at at our uh at our church on a on a week to week basis uh and the and whenever we often it's kind of whenever we talk about the church we use the we use the Mennonite we use the Mennonite confession because it's just it's just it's great um uh but yeah sorry like no I was gonna say the same thing I'm like I I I I would have said it they were more Amish uh that was like it just feels um I don't know much about it and then um I don't know if it was through you I'm guessing that that was the answer um we just started like going like hey look at this creed well wow that's so good and then we just kept using it forever um and now we're in a uh a a spree where we've been uh pulling from uh Anglican catechisms just go back and forth between aggregate in there as well but um yeah we love it so um I assume your um your daily work your weekly type of work is different than most pastors um given uh the you're you kind of you have two jobs you're right you're your pastor and you have the the nonprofit uh element um and maybe you have more jobs than that Malcolm has 10 I don't know how many um but uh what would you what would you how would you describe your your your typical week what what what makes it a little bit different than maybe you say most pastors?

A Slow-Motion Disaster For Families

SPEAKER_03 40:42

Yeah I think in some ways it's a normal pastor job. I prepare a sermon every week and trying to develop leadership within the church. We lead a Bible study, we organize meals all those kinds of things and then that piece of it is is broadened out in the way that my congregation is basically experiencing a humanitarian crisis right now. I liken it to a natural disaster in slow motion. So imagine what a hurricane would do but then spread that out over a year and a half of the significant experience you know people losing their homes, losing family members not having stable situations losing their dads that's just everyday experience and so it's been really interesting and challenging to pass them through that. You know we had someone detained and reported last week so it's still happening we've had 20 adults in our congregation detained and eight children. And then I also am leading this organization that's helping immigrant families in our city through our ministry and there's some overlap there. Sometimes families that we support become members of the church and sometimes members of our church need to access the services of the ministry. But that you know is much bigger but less intense in a way. So there's probably three or four hundred families that we have served in our city. And we do small amounts of food, rental assistance I'm constantly receiving calls from people who have just had their husband deported. It's generally the husband who's been the season are deported uh who can't make their mess this week who can't um put food on the table and so uh busy is probably the best word to describe my and uh we also you know we're a young church and a young nonprofit so like I don't have an office also why I'm here you know I don't have kind of the normal things that think people think of when they think of this type of organizational work or church work. Um but also incredibly rewarding and fulfilling I mean it's I just feel blessed to be able to be a part of what God is doing in our church and do this industry. And I always think I'm so glad that none of these people have to do this alone. And I know there's thousands of them more but I think that that we are able to help the people that we can and that they can find community and presence here do you are there any are there any communities as you think of the church uh kind of around the world and throughout time as you think about the situation that you're facing pastorally are there any are there any communities that you think have gone through similar things that you've learned from, taken kind of taken in taken encouragement from um or even possibly taken taken tactics from um as you as you think about the way that you operate kind of on a day to day week to week month month to month basis. Yeah I mean I would like to demand Read than I am. I feel like it's so hard to find time to really learn about what other people are doing for something because I know that there's been incredible good work around the world. The one person that I read a lot is Howard Thurman, uh, who I think talks about, you know, in a similar way, the way that the church, the black church was responding to the the you know, what was happening during the civil rights era and how to place that theologically and how do we as like theologically respond to what the injustice that we're seeing, um, I find his writing very handy.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

Yeah, yeah. I asked that question not to not to uh bring up particular books or anything, but to but to what I what I hear is an account of uh an account of the persecuted church, and that is and that is uh the people that we uh as the church kind of around the world, the people that we have the most to learn, most to learn from is the persecuted church. In a lot of American history, it's been uh uh it's been the black church. I mean, but you but I I I but but I but when I think about particularly what's going on uh what's what's going on now, you're I mean, you're in the I mean you're you're in it. You're you're in it and experiencing it. But that's a that is an experience that the church has had throughout its entire history. And so, and so even if I know there, I know there may be moments you you said you said before that um that you know that it's that it's that that it's important that the folks going through it know that they're know that they're not alone. But also I want, I mean, but also that's as a side note, I want you to know that you're that you're not alone as as a pastor because the peop because the people of God have experienced this kind of phenomenon over and over and over again throughout our history. And the Lord, and the Lord has proven himself to be to be faithful that and that in that entire time. Um and so uh that's just as I uh as I continue to my my favorite folks to read are folks with it between like the fourth and the 15th century. But but but one of the things that continually comes out of that comes out of that is that uh you know the Lord, the Lord uses the Lord uses a number of these circumstances to bring us to bring us closer and closer, to bring us closer and closer to him. Um and and and I mean and annoyingly, uh suffering is his favorite tool to use to to to to to to purify us. Um it's the way he's operated in me, probably just but but but for but for all of us. But but one of the things that I have to constantly be reminded of is there are there are very few new questions and the Lord and so and so there's a so there's a so there's a comfort, there's a there's a comfort that we can have in knowing that even the things that we go through, uh there are there are people not only uh not only now um not only not only now, but throughout time and around the world that we can that we can lean on.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Um I think might what might be helpful, um I I I I you you likened this moment to like a um a slow moving natural

What Mass Detention Looks Like Nearby

SPEAKER_01 47:20

disaster. And I think that's a great image or illustration um because I I don't know if people know what's happening. Um you mentioned what's happening within your church, um, and we hear of mass deportations. Um could you give us maybe from your perspective what's happening in San Antonio? Uh when I when we went on our trip, we got I didn't know there were three detention centers in uh the greater area. Um, and because we don't have a detention center in Waco, and so I'm like, what does that look like? And you know, so yeah, could you just give us maybe from your perspective, your angle of the the universe, which is only three hours away from Waco, not far.

SPEAKER_03 48:00

Yeah, so I think there's really three broad categories of how our community would be impacted. The first and the broadest is financial. One of the first things the administration did was to take away work authorization from people that had it. And they also sent ice into businesses all across the country so that employee authorization. So that combined meant that the more people didn't have work authorization, and then all the people that didn't have really struggled to find consistent work and have been more vulnerable to exploitation. People without work permits were always vulnerable to exploitation, but that has only increased, and uh, there's only more stories of people who work and don't get paid or who are getting paid really sub minimum wage salaries or or or amounts. They also have increased the fees on basically everything that an immigrant needs to do on all documents, on on everything you have to file. They've taken away SNAP as well. So there's just this like sort of perfect form that was obviously planned out to put incredible financial pressure on the community. So we're seeing even families that have not been affected by detention or deportation are just really having a hard time paying rent and getting food on the table for their kids. Outside of that, or like kind of within that, there are then also families who have had someone detained it's from their family, and it's generally the husband of the family who's been detained. Uh and so it's generally the mom and kids that are left behind. And that's really the biggest impact that I see from the mass conversation campaign is family separation. So I've seen families, moms that haven't seen their kids in a year. Um, a mom that was detained that had just given birth that isn't able to be with her, you know, she her daughter was two weeks old when she was detained and she's been deported and can't find a way back. You know, marriages that've been dissolved have dissolved because of this. Like people just it's not easy to reunite with your loved one. And actually I think that's something that's really important for people to know because really they're detaining and I think there's something like hundreds of thousands of people at this point that have been detained and supported. Many of them have family members here, many of them have children here, and it's not easy to reunite. Yeah, I think there's this idea that well, those who've been left behind, you know, okay, this is not just, but at least those who've been left behind can then go home back back to their home country and be reunited. That's actually not true. It's really difficult for people to get back to their home country unless you go through the detention and deportation system. And so uh really the end result of a deportation campaign is not deportation, it's suffering and cruelty. And that's really the impact that it had on the community is the cost of suffering, especially among children who have lost parents. Um several children that we know I know directly have lost both parents and are trying to figure out, you know, how do they how do we help them who can they stay with? You know, it's it's devastating. The impact on families and children is also devastating. And then there's a smaller group that I think is important to identify, which are families with children that have been detained themselves. So there's also family detention going on in children at the same time in what really amounts to what I would call a concentration camp, just an hour outside of Simon's studio. Uh and those children have been even more deeply impacted in those families. Many of them have been released back into the country, which again only builds this case that like really is just about suffering, it's really just about traumatizing and and causing harm to families. Um but that's been an even more significant impact on those particular families and on our community in general, because everybody's so afraid all the time, and it's just everybody's just kind of living in a state of constant psychological stress.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Do you feel like that that that shift um in this second term of Trump's um presidency, the emphasis on suffering? Um that shift is is different than the first time, right? Um there's there's been a an amplification of this. Um has that changed things for you and how you pastor? Like, is it made it where it's like I don't know even know what to expect? Like one, you know, every day is you're adapting. Is it something new each time? Or it also does it make it hard to um cross the aisle with people who might might have disagreed on some pol p policy level, but now you're going like, how do how do we even have common ground? Sorry, that's like five questions.

SPEAKER_03 53:21

I'll do my best, but just let me know if there's something else.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 53:25

Um I think that there were elements of this that they were starting to put in place in the first Trump administration. And I think that between the first administration and the second administration, particularly, Stephen Miller just refined and perfected how do you make immigrant feelings suffer. And then has implemented that literally step by step. And it continues. I mean, they were just made a new change for green card holders. Like they're just I feel like he just mapped this out in 500 steps and they're on step 300 right now. Uh and so it's very it feels very targeted. It feels very much like violence towards the community, which is really how I experience it on a day-to-day basis. Uh and yeah, I mean I I think that it has I I'm not sure how to answer the question like like the divisions in our country. I don't have a lot of direct interaction with people who think that we should support everybody. Um I feel like I mostly am speaking to the people who don't know to not personally or hasn't had that experience. And is like, oh, this isn't so bad. Or well, this doesn't really affect me. And those are the people that I really hope will look at what's happening right now, learn about it, hear the stories of the people directly impacted, and say, I cannot tolerate like I need to

Can Minds Change And Where To Spend Energy

SPEAKER_03 55:05

say something. That's what I think I consider the most.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

I think this is but one of the things that I think lies behind Slim's Slim's question is his uh his his optimism about persuading people. Um and and I one of the things, one of the things on which uh always helpful. I'm not yeah. Uh I'm not gonna say we disagree on this, but I think that uh you know, even when I've when I've thought about some of these issues, I was like, so I have a finite amount of like emotional and spiritual energy. Um and when there are situations when people are dying, my my responsibility is to come alongside those people who are dying, not necessarily to spend that energy convincing you over here that people are dying. Uh I I will tell you, and I'll be like, look, we're and we're doing some stuff over here to love people. So like join us. But like if you're gonna fight me on whether or not these people are dying, then like that my energy can be best spent over here, like actually loving the people who are dying. So like, so in and and and I think a lot of our a lot of our energy, especially over the course of the last few years, has been uh even all the language about our division, all this kind of stuff. Like a lot of our a lot of our energy is spent talking about that as opposed to thinking about there are people, there are people in front of me who are who are suffering. My responsibility is not to talk to all these other people about uh and like hopefully kind of get them on board. No, like the Lord is placing people in front of me because like I got stuff to like I got stuff that I can do. Um and so um so so yeah, so I that I I only say that as an uh as an as an encouragement to you, as somebody in the in the trenches, loving, loving, loving folks where the Lord uh where the Lord has placed you. Um it is it is a deeply uh I mean it's just a deeply admirable, um it's deeply admirable work. And I you're part of my regular prayers now. Um and and also but also, I mean, and that's I say this on the podcast, but there, but there are um think about ways that ways that we can build church partnerships because I mean when I think about what uh what what Paul's talking about in uh in 2 Corinthians when he talks about the relationship between the Corinthian and Macedonian church, like the only way that we'll have uh what what equality is is not a state, but a relationship of continuous exchange. There are things that you have that we need, there are things that we might have that you need. And the but the only way for that, the only way for us to experience the kind of equality that Paul is talking about in that in that text is if we're in this if we're in these relationships of exchange. Um and the fact of the matter is, I mean, this ought to be true of churches around the country that we have that we're continually building these kinds of relationships to build one another up. Yeah. But um, but at least for us, uh I hope there are I hope there are ways that we can hope there are ways that we can that we can build those kinds of relationships.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

I want you to chew on that. I'm gonna come back to that question, but I wanna I wanna uh reverse and see if you can uh are be the arbiter of our big dilemma between the two of us. Uh oh. Can you change people's minds? Um where are you at on that spectrum, Diane?

SPEAKER_03 58:30

Oh dear. I was not pre-borned about it.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

We go deep on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 58:41

Yeah, I can have to take a side. You don't have to, you don't have to do that. I would like to believe, I I do believe that people are fundamentally good and that everybody can and will have empathy if they have like a personal heart connection with someone going through suffering, uh no matter what color their skin or what language they speak or whatever country they're from. Like I I do feel like I believe that fundamentally that everybody has capacity for that level of empathy.

SPEAKER_04 59:14

So would you say you you chose my time that said uh moving on we're just engaging, we're listening, we're listening.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Yeah. I think that there are places where my energy is best. Yeah, and I think that there are people who are close to the like the inflection point of being able to change their mind, and others will not. And so I think that's how I've chosen to prioritize it.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

I heard someone on a recent uh podcast talking about how their church says, um, it's maybe Mark Damos um talking about his uh multi-ethnic church movement, um, and was saying how our j our our our goal or our job is not to to change uh if you have like the pendulum of like someone who's like far left and far right, um, and you have you on a scale of one to ten, he's like, we we we're not gonna change the one and one and one and twos and the nine and tens. Um they're they are firmly committed in their camps. Um and I was like, maybe. But it's it's like let's let's spend our you know finite amount of time um on those who are maybe closer into those is to bring in the and I'm like, but also maybe the the the whole idea about that maybe like but it feels like the your goal is just to bring everyone to the middle.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:44

And I'm like, I don't know if that's well, there could be, and the thing is, like, there are people I okay, so and I'll I'll frame what I think in this way. I think there are people who have been called to care for the ones and the twos and the lines of the text. I'm just not that person. Like I just we all have things that the Lord has called us to. Some people have the particular energy to go into those kinds of positions and be like, hey, look, this is what like this is what the love of Christ looks like in this, in this, in this space. Some people, some people have that calling. I don't have to have every calling. I want to be free. I want to be free to recognize because like I've been I because I think I think about this personally with our time in the previous denomination that we were in. Um I think one of the I think one of the lies. Yeah, the PTA. Um I think one of the lies that I had convinced myself of was that uh was that the Lord had called me to be a particular prophet in that in that space. And over the course of that time, the Lord told me, I was like, no, no, actually. Like if I called you to be a prophet in that space, I'll give you the resources to do that. I'm not gonna I'm not giving you the resources to do that. I'm like, oh, okay, I don't need to be here. Like so that so that so that that then that has then freed me up in other in in other spaces to be like, oh, like this is actually just draining. Oh. So that's the background. That's that's some of the background to these, to these, to these claims that I'm making.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

Um for our uh our churches, you know, each um uh Faith Works um church, the group, they come up with a project. The one uh the the project for our church right now um is gonna have multiple elements to it. But one of the things that we're because around this conversation uh is to train our church to have conversations with people who wildly disagree on the topic of immigration, um is to try to train our church to say, hey, you know, the big problem we have right now is the polarization in echo chambers. Um people come into conversations already entrenched in what they already believe, and any attempt to change their mind, to affirm Malcolm here, um will only re-entrench their previously held beliefs. Um, how do you persuade anyone of anything ever? Um and so we're trying to think through how do we bring someone into a conversation um to not to try to change them, um, not to try to convert them, because people smell that out really quickly, um, but it's to kind of lower the the perceived risk of even hearing a story um and just hearing uh which your podcast that you're you're doing of sharing stories, I do I do think is part of the the way that people do change. Um and I think you know, is that kind of why you started going down that that that pathway? Or what what was it that maybe may had you start doing those pod those podcasts?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:40

Yeah, absolutely. I believe that the greatest opportunity for change comes through relationships. So when someone hears a story and can put themselves in that person's position and hears the elements of that story that match their own, that allows us that that human to human connection is what allows us to say, oh wait, but that person's going to exist. Like, why is that happening to them when they're actually just like me? They're actually just a mom like me, they're actually just trying to love their kids just like me. And I also wanted to break out of like I think we also think of immigrants often monolithically, and we also think of immigrants as just having one story. Well, it just and I really wanted to bring and bring out and highlight the complexity of stories that immigrants have, and any individual immigrant also has a complex story that is defined by more than just being an immigrant. Um and so that was the root of it. Yeah. It and and that idea of changing people's minds. Like I think we can read numbers and statistics all day, but it kind of feels tough, you know, we kind of glaze over it. Uh but when you hear someone's story and see their face and hear their voice, I think it becomes much harder to uh deny the humanity of another person.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:13

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. That's good. Um have you noticed any other churches in San Antonio doing similar work? Um is there is there a a network where you guys are encouraging one another? We got we we got to meet one or two while while we were there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:32

Yeah, we do collaborate with quite a few uh organizations through our ministry organization and also churches and church leaders, faith leaders in the city. I think that I am probably the most vocal person in San Antonio. I think that is just a personal choice. You know, thinking about who do I serve and changing minds and all that. I think I had to make a very perfect This whole decision about my role as an advocate while pastoring my congregation, and eventually came down on the side of I am called to bear witness and be a voice for my community that right now doesn't follow. And I think that's actually part of what God has like brought me to this place to do being bilingual, being bicultural. Um that's a longer story. Uh but what does that look like being more broken?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:33

I wouldn't I was saying, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:36

I mean, I basically say yeah, I say yes to basically any reporter that wants to talk to me. Um I've been on TV and been on various things and recently went to DC twice to speak um in front of the White House in front of the Capitol, and the time my my daughter came to speak. And I just think I think those things are important. I think that I could not be witnessing what I'm with and pastoring my congregation faithfully without saying yes to those opportunities to speak truth to power. Like that's I have decided that is definitely part of my role, even though it is uncomfortable and takes up time and brings risk to me and my family and my expectations.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:28

That's great. That's great. Yeah, I I I did see that you were uh um being awarded the Rafka uh Chapel Oscar Romero Award for Human Rights Advocacy uh this year. Has that already happened or is that coming?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:42

Yeah, that happened in April. That was kind of a out-of-the-blue surprise, um, but really, really lovely and a wonderful experience also for my kids. I I don't know, I always think about you know, of course, I I have my role as a pastor in my community, my congregation, which I think of as my family, but I also it's really important to me that my kids see that when there isn't justice in the world, we respond. And like I I feel very blessed to be able to share all of this with them. And they came to that award ceremony and saw not just me, but many other people involved in justice work in many different areas, and I I that is so important to me that they see that that you don't sit still, you don't stay quiet, but

Advocacy As Witness And Speaking Publicly

SPEAKER_03 1:08:30

you do something, whatever you that's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:33

Yeah, well, m my one burning question for this whole podcast that I was like, I'm I'm dying to ask you, and you may not have the silver bullet answer. Um, but on our trip, I was so um blown away by the work that you're doing and some other churches in San Antonio that are that are doing um around uh immigration that it was so encouraging. Uh it had you know the moment of you know, like um Elijah being told, you know, there are 7,000 people you don't even know that are doing, you know, that you know, so like to take heart, uh you are not alone in this. And you know what we were trying to encourage you that you were not alone in this. Um but it was like this is for San Antonio. Um as I as I look at Waco, um, it's it's very different here. Um we don't have the detention centers. Um I've you know we have a couple other churches here that are doing immigration ministry, but they've shifted they've said, you know, like since the second presidency, like everything has changed. Like what we were doing, you know, you know, the it's all all different. You know, the people are are gone. Um and so the what what recommendation would you have for churches um like ours trying to uh start out in uh to to step our feet into into this realm and to tip our toes in the water to say, let's, you know, how do we begin an immigration ministry here? Um you know right now it all feels kind of underground. Um so how would any any encouragement or any places to start?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that question because it's something I think about a lot and the question I get a lot is what can I do? And I I think it's really interesting, you know, some people say, Well, can I send letters to the kids letters to the kids in Jilly? Um, can I send some of your conservation? And those are certainly lovely and helpful and a blessing to receive. But what I always want to say, I feel like now I have this perfect space to say it, is what is required. The call is not to help necessarily be specific children over here far away from you that you don't know. Although that's I'm so glad you had that impulse. The call is to build community that's diverse and full of people who don't think like you and don't act like you and to co-create something together. And so what I hope that people would do in addition to other ways of supporting is to say, well, how can I find people where I live? Like, how can I break out of the bubbles that I'm in where I live? Whether they be financial or safe-based, or you know, whatever it is that's kind of keeping you insulated. How can you break out of that where you live and build real relationships with the people who are different than you in whatever ways that that presents itself? Not in a patronizing, well, let's go help the poor people over there. Yeah, but in a like, how can we create community, diverse community, the kingdom community that God calls us into? How can we be doing that work here where we are?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:35

Yeah. That's good. That's good. Um, and the follow-up question that maybe uh equally as important, um, what is the best way to learn Spanish? Because Duolingo is not yet doing it for

How Churches Start Immigration Ministry

SPEAKER_01 1:11:50

me. Um I thought my hundred-day streak was good. It doesn't feel like it's sufficient.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:01

Yeah. Uh well, I have a good answer for you, but it's not easy for it just to go and live with people who speak.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:11

I kind of know the answer, but there you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:15

But I uh I will tell you, like my mom did not speak Spanish to me when I was a kid. She by the time she had me, she'd been in the country for 10 years. And like I think like in that era, you know, kids were beaten in school for speaking in Spanish a little bit a few years before I was born. And so she wanted me to sound like I was from here, quote unquote, and you know, to speak English really well. And so I didn't learn Spanish at home. I'd learned some in school and then have just sort of I've fumbled my way through most days, you know. Like I've definitely gotten better, but it's I think it's more a mindset of like I'm gonna be bad at this, and it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

Yeah. That's good. That's good. Like, well, good, I'm on the right track of being bad at it.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:07

Excellent vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:11

I think it's one of those things, like, I feel like God, that's part of the calling, right? It's like you're gonna have to lead a Spanish language church and it's not gonna be your first language. Uh, and that's part of like having to be really vulnerable and know that I make a lot of mistakes all the time. But I feel like that's a gift in my congregational speed, right? Like it's important for a pastor to not be perfect and to be vulnerable in lots of different ways in front of people because then we allow space for others to do the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:44

That's good. Um, let me let me close with two two last questions here. Um and uh the last one will be uh our our Malcolm's question. Uh is there ways that we as a church can can partner with you? But uh before that, just kind of give you an opportunity. Um if you could say one thing to churches that have never experienced uh immigrant ministry up close like this, uh what would you want them to hear? Or just I I think there's there's narratives around immigration, uh you know, around immigrants. Um and I'm sure there's there's ways to say things are hard, but uh maybe share something um that might be have been beautiful or encouraging to you uh from this work.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:35

Yeah, there has been so much healing and blessing in our community during this time. I think particularly of um one woman who had sent, she was the first woman to visit a Dilly with our three-year-old. Um the first family dissention that we had in our conversation, and when she came back two months later, we just had this incredible service. The whole community came together, and she had had a pretty intense conflict with someone in our community around something, you know, just the way these things happen in churches, and yeah, they hadn't talked for a while, and the two of them sat together during that service and just cried and telled each other feeling and I think that is that has been incredible to see the way God works through suffering and struggle. Um and and not just work through but like actively heals us as we have to go through this trauma. Um it's been really beautiful. And I hope that people would see, yeah, that immigrants are full people, that congregation has all kinds of normal struggles of any church. Um, and so many of the same miracles and black sense as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:52

Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, is there ways that uh churches uh can and have partnered with you?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:02

Certainly, I mean, you know it's funds are really helpful, like money just to just to lay it out on the table. Like people are struggling to pay bills and to pay lawyers and to get food and detention because they have to put money in commissary accounts, and it's like so much of it boils down to finances, and so money is really helpful. Every small amount helps some family directly, and and so you know, I always put that out there. Like it I think people are like, I want to do something more, but actually, like that's really helpful.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:36

When the enemy is when the when anyway, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yes, I agree, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:42

Um, and other donations too, and and you know, coming down and getting to know people, hearing stories is really important. Uh, but I would also say I don't think our faith, like our Christian church, has come out strongly enough to say publicly this is wrong, and this is not what Jesus wants to see in the world. Like in fact, the administration has co-opted Christianity and is doing a lot of these things in the name of Christianity, like they're harming children and saying they love Jesus on the same day. Yeah, and I think that it's really important for people of faith to be willing to stand up and publicly say this does not align with what Jesus said.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:30

Amen. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:35

Yep, and they'll face and they'll face judgment for it. Uh that's that's another that's another podcast. That's another podcast. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for real. Thank you for your witness.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:47

Yeah, thank you for your witness. You're you're to be a prophet, but to be a priest, a pastor, to uh people there in San Antonio um for this opportunity to get talked, um, hopefully for a longer friendship amongst our our churches as well. Um continue the conversation offline if that way that that might happen. Um so um I'll I'll I'll be in touch. But uh for the uh our listeners, um any best way to stay connected to you? Are you big on the socials?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:16

Are you uh it's a good it's probably a good start. I'm not like a poster, but that's a good one that's connected. Okay, okay, that it's you have a scenario.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:33

Yeah. And then the podcast is meores juntos. Is that right? That's that right.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:40

Mejores juntos, yeah. Good shout out, thank you. It's it's so small like something to think about. Thank you. It's on Spotify. Yeah, and that was just lovely to share.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:51

Yeah. Fantastic. All right, well, we will uh we'll be we'll be in touch, but thank you so much, Diane. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:58

Thank you all. Thank you for making this

Partnering, Staying Connected, And Closing CTA

SPEAKER_03 1:19:00

space. It's an honor to be here with you all.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:02

And y'all, thank y'all so much for listening. Uh the best way to support this uh work is to give it a rate in the review. So if you found this conversation helpful, uh, leave five stars. Uh, but also share this episode with others who might want to continue having conversations about immigration, uh, ministry, Jesus, church, uh, screen time, anything else we've talked about here today, uh y'all. Uh say goodbye to Malcolm, who'll be on Space for about a month. Uh stuff for along with Adam.