Welcome And A Solo Episode

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Hey there, listeners of Theology and Pieces across the universe. We know you're listening out there in space. Through the black holes, interstellar. Welcome to Theology Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and I am your host, Slim and No Malcolm. Yes, uh, the faithful, dreadful day uh has come. Malcolm is on sabbatical, uh, and we hope he actually gets some rest and rejuvenation on his sabbatical. And so uh I think I've only once before in the history of this podcast uh have uh podcasted, podted singularly, uh solo. And uh go back and listen to that episode. I heard there was uh some good response to that on uh uh it was the the sin of certainty. Oh, that was fun. That was a fun one. Uh but today we are gonna talk about is patriotism a sin? That was real live drum roll, no fake drum rolls here, uh, but real live audience as well. Thank you. Thank you. Um, not real. Um so today we are going to talk about is patriotism a sin? Because I don't know if you know, there is a big important day coming up uh in the next couple days. It is uh a really important birthday that is happening um on Sunday, and uh we are celebrating uh this really important birthday. Actually, there's two people in my life who are having birthdays uh on Sunday that I know personally, and I don't think that's who we're talking about. Um, there are people that you might be thinking about. Um, Donald Trump's birthday is on Sunday, and it's also Flag Day, and instead of waiting until July 4th, uh we're kicking off our 250th uh anniversary celebration as a country this upcoming Sunday to kick off a summer of celebrating America. And so it

Why Patriotism Feels Urgent Now

SPEAKER_00 2:30

just felt right for us to uh ask the question, is patriotism a sin? And we'll get there. We'll get there. Um, but before we get there, I'd just give a little personal heads up of what's going on in my life. Um, so uh my wife and I just got back from Mexico. Yeah, yeah. Uh it was delightful, it was beautiful. Uh, why we went was we just celebrated 20 years uh uh for our anniversary. Um so for our 20th anniversary, we went to uh Acamal, Mexico, which is south of Cancun. Uh, and it was actually the place we went for our 10-year anniversary. And it was so delightful that we said, hey, at 20 years, let's bring the kids. Yeah, you hear that. Um, yeah, yeah, that's the every time I tell people why for your anniversary are you bringing your kids? Uh that that's it's a good question. Um, but it was actually really delightful. Uh, you know, to be able to go explore. Uh, I mean, there we got to go into this uh this lagoon uh that was uh kind of walled off and you had to kind of pay to get into. And it felt like we were just dropped right into a um into like the zoo um aquarium where we just like were like swimming with thousands of thousands of beautifully um bright colored fish all around us. And it's just like, oh my goodness. And we just had snorkels and we just spent hours just snorkeling and swimming with the fishes uh one day. Uh the next day we went to uh these cenote's uh in Mexico, and they're these underground water um caves that you get to go into and uh see some just like really beautiful uh fish, but also bats. And that was the part that I didn't love. My wife didn't love being so claustrophobic into the into these caves, um, and like literally the the the stalactites. Uh I always up stalactites and stalagmites. Um, but the stalactites, I think, are the ones from the ceiling hanging down, like some of them were coming all the way down to the water, and you had to like kind of go under the water to get around them. There was there were so many of them. It was so beautiful. But there was a time when there were so many bats, so many, that it was one thing to see a bat from afar. Um, but there was another when there was, I

Mexico Anniversary Trip And Reflections

SPEAKER_00 4:58

don't know, 30 right above your head, um, three feet above you, that I was like, I can't, I can't do this. So I just was like, I'm going underwater. This was definitely a um a turtle form of my conflict style. I'm just going to turtle up, go underwater, and say, out of sight, out of mind, I don't see it, uh, and just swam by it. I can't, I can't do that. That was so creepy to see them just chewing away on something and hopefully it wasn't uh you know, human hand or something like that. But um, and then on the next day we uh we got to go swim with turtles and stingrays and things like that out in the um the Gulf of Mexico or the Gulf of America, however you want to define. Sadly, Google Maps or Apple Maps referred to it as Gulf of America, and I was very sad to see that. But um, that's what we got to do um for our uh 20th anniversary. We got back and it was it was delightful. I got to practice my Spanish. I'm still trying to improve upon it. Um I'm at 120 days going strong on my Duolingo streak, and it was helpful, um, but still Google Translate is a also a good help uh tool, helpful tool when you're in a bind uh in deep in the heart of Mexico. So uh that was that was a fun time. Um some things have happened in the last few weeks, and usually the comments are around things that are happening around our country and things like that. Um so that might be something I need to personally

Denominations Arguing Over Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 6:25

look into. Um why am I so captivated with what's happening by our country? Um, maybe you as well, but there's things that just feel like need our attention. Um, but something outside of that, there are there's two big um denominational gatherings that have are happening uh this summer. One is happening right now, um, I think literally today, and there's one that's happening in a few weeks. But um, two things that are happening in these two denominations, uh the Southern Baptists are uh uh denomination is is meeting right now, the Southern Baptist Convention, and the PC USA is meeting in in a few weeks. Um, but some of the things that they are talking about uh at the Southern Baptist Convention this week in Orlando, the messengers, like the the uh uh representatives um from these churches, um kind of like presbyters, there's a lot of similarities, it seems, um go to the convention and they've overwhelmingly approved the first step uh towards a constitutional amendment that would make it more um explicit to bar women um from serving as pastors, elders, or overseers. Uh the pro the proposal received 75% support. Um, and it's gonna require a two-thirds vote next year for for that to go forward. But 75% of the Southern Baptist Convention has said that women cannot preach, be elders or overseers. And this has been um somewhat already uh in play in the Southern Baptist Convention, in the sense that women could not be as senior pastors, but they there are churches that have uh women pastors, or they would have churches that would be um speakers, um, teachers. They want to eliminate any ambiguity on this. Um and it's it's getting more and more on one level to see it charitably, they're being more consistent with what they say they believe. Um and so I I do I do applaud consistency. Um if someone genuinely believes something, but then goes back goes back and forth on it, you uh you ask, do you do you really believe it? Um and so on one level I'm I'm you know, they are being very clear where they stand on this issue. Um and so I I applaud that, but it's it's just it's so unhelpful and unhealthy because of what we believe. Um men, women being equally created in in the eyes of God that uh have equal value, equal gifts. Um, that yes, men and women, um, there are differences, there are there are uh biological differences, there are, you know, but there is um from my clear understanding, you can go back to our very first podcast on um how and why women should be in leadership and why we need women in leadership, it's just it's gonna be so bad for this denomination and and just and just for the church, uh, because there are gonna be many, many women and uh men in these churches that will not get this gift, uh, will be missing out on this benefit. Um, and so I, you know, something to be praying for for uh this denomination. But what's interesting is this is what's happening right now in the Southern Baptist denomination, kind of a greater restriction. But then in a few weeks, the PSU PC USA is facing a very different question at its upcoming General Assembly. Their delegates are considering a proposal that would explicitly require ordained clergy to be monogamous. Yes, I said that. Requiring ordained clergy to be monogamous, um, and you think, is that not what's happening? Well, it it this is showing us that there might be something to talk about there. Um, and so it's to it's basically trying to make explicit that we are not going to support polyamorous relationships in the clergy. This isn't even referring to uh across um the board uh in the church. This is just saying restricted to the clergy that we want to make sure that our our pastors are not in um multiple relationships. And so it's just fascinating. These two stories reveal kind of larger trends in American Christianity. The SBC is asking how can we more clearly um restrict these boundaries? And the PCA is asking, why do we even need boundaries? It seems um and so in both cases, the underlying question is kind of similar. Uh, it's around boundaries, it's around you know these lines and you know who gets to draw those lines? What where where is a faithful interpretation of those lines? One line, one denomination is debating whether uh women can hold pastoral office, another is debating whether clergy um can have multiple romantic partners, which is just a wild thing. And I'm like, isn't there some like common sense medium ground between these two? Um it's just wild. That's the things that are happening in our um in the church. Um that is just it's attracting so much attention that I I I felt like it would be might be helpful for our our listeners to to to think in on um because you may not be in these uh circles. Maybe you are uh listening from afar, but if maybe you may not be in these circles. But I think the question around boundaries, around um having convictions and also trying to uh wrestle with those convictions, uh you know, some convictions are good. I think whatever your convictions are, it's good to have convictions. It's good to it's gonna be good to stand strong on on those those things that you you strongly believe on, uh believe in. And then it's also how do you hold those convictions with with grace, with humility, and always you know being open to to growing. I I want us to be able to do that. But I still think you need some convictions. Um, still need some things. Otherwise, it's just it's no holds bar. Um, and so some interesting things happening there that I I just thought it would be good for us to to chew on. But um, let's let's move into our main main discussion here.

America At 250 And Summer Hype

SPEAKER_00 13:16

All right, so America, Merca, is turning 250 years old. That's that's amazing. Uh I hope you're excited as I am. Um, that is something to applaud. 250 years. Um I'm kind of saying it's with a a smirk because you go anywhere in Europe and you're like, 250 years is cute. Uh very, very young. Um, but it's it's it is it is a an important number, it's an important marker. Uh, there are people uh alive today, I'm not one of them, who celebrated the 200-year um anniversary. And there are people, you know, to be able to to who can give us a bigger picture of you know us as a country. But over the next year, uh over the over the next couple months, uh, you're going to see a lot of military flyovers. You're gonna see flag day celebrations. Um, you might maybe already start to see flags around your neighborhood, people putting those out. Fourth of July events, political speeches invoking the greatness of America. And then there's also gonna be an MMA fight on the on the lawn of the White House. And I don't know if you've seen this, go go check some images. It looks like you you just went to, I don't know, it's a a worse Disney World. It looks so bad. Um, and this the light up thing that the structure that they have going on over there, that yeah, anyways, that so you're just gonna see lots of lots of love for America. Um, and for many quit Christians, I do think this raises a difficult question. Is patriotism a virtue or a vice? I think when I think of um my love for America, um, I think the times that I felt the most um love for America, I think is is um distilled down into one scene in one movie. And I don't know if you can picture that movie off the top of your head, you know what I'm talking about. But to me, it's like the obvious this is America. This is my love for America. And I I I hope you're you're you're picturing it along with me. We're talking about the sandlot, we're talking about this great movie where these kids grew up playing baseball with one another. You know, they're they're playing the street um street baseball. They have that really scary dog on the other side of the fence that's owned by James Earl Jones, uh, the actor for that role. Um, but there's this one moment uh in the middle of the summer, on in 4th of July, the fireworks are going off, and Ray Charles song, America, ooh, America, that song, God shed his grace on thee. Ooh. And it's just like this like moment, you're like, yeah, I love this land, I love this place. And there are moments every summer, my family would go, um, we'll go to Galveston Beach, and we haven't in a while now, but um, for a long time, we would go to Galveston Beach, uh, my my my immediate family, but also my uh parents' brothers and families and things like that. And we would all gather on the beach, and we're on the beach, and the fireworks are going off, and it's just like this like sweet moment. Kids are running around and playing, you're like, man, I love where I live, I love this. Um, and so like that to me is like my like, mmm, my love for America um is kind of like like I'm kind of distilled into those those images. And then you have to consider America.

When Love Collides With Atrocity

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Um, you have to consider things that just strike you as incongruent with things that you love. In the the last couple months, you that America uh bombed hundreds of schoolgirls, killing them with this war with Iran. We just murdered school-aged girls. If if another country bombed one of our elementary schools, you would have such hatred for that for that country. And we barely blink about it here. I mean, we we have a history with the transatlantic slave trade of just utter, utter horrific events with lynchings that we can we can go on the the the amount that happened in the one of the the the the ugliest ones happening in in Waco. Go look up the Waco horror. Like the the current occupation of Puerto Rico, where there's there's no um representation, there's definitely taxation, but there's there's no representation, there's no help. The cutting of foreign aid, there's just so much that's going on right now that I don't love a lot that's going on in our country. There's a lot to not like. But is it wrong for others to actually have a love for America? And I thought what was re what was interesting, you know, there's times when you're like, hey, I don't want to always um broad stroke um someone I I disagree with. Like I think it's so helpful for you to find for for us to engage with people that we we disagree with, because otherwise we're just gonna continue to be in our uh echo chambers and our bubbles, um, but to engage with people we disagree with, and then also say, here's some things I agree with you on. Um and someone recently asked me, like, um, what do you agree with President Trump with? I was like, that's a great question. And it it definitely takes time to think about um where I would agree with President Trump. And there's some things you could say, like um America has uh fallen behind um on some things. We could talk about like the economic world trade uh and you know how things are getting uh cheaper elsewhere, and and then we're we're uh we're losing some opportunity to manufacture stuff here, but would we have done it anyways? I don't know. Um and so I think there's things that Trump might sense. Hey, here's something that is wrong. But I usually I would just disagree with his solutions um uh for these things. Um but recently uh Trump was uh uh hosting prime minister from Canada, um and he had this moment where he was he was describing the the border between Canada and America. And uh let's just listen to it.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

And it's also a beautiful, you know, as a real estate developer, you know, I'm a real estate developer, but when you get rid of that artificially doing line, somebody drew that line many years ago with like a rumor, just a straight line right across the top of the country. When you look at that beautiful formation when it's together, I'm a very artistic person. But when I looked at that beautiful, I said that's the way it was meant to be. But you know, but uh I guess I do feel it's much better for Canada.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Well, if if if I may, um as you know from his real estate, there are some places that uh are never for sale. It's true. Um we're sitting in one right now, you know, Buckingham Palace, and you visited as well. Uh and um having met with uh the owners of Canada over the course of the campaign uh last several months, uh it it's not for sale, won't be for sale uh ever.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Uh but that was uh Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney just like it's not for sale, won't be for sale uh ever. Uh it's just this this moment better. Um but I I agree with Trump there. And it's just this interesting moment where Trump says the border between America and Canada is this artificial line that someone drew with a marker. And like I mean, thinking about the lines between countries, the the border between America and Mexico, the the you know, but the border between um wherever, like these are these are artificial lines. What makes one land different than the next land? Like, and so if national borders are ultimately human constructs, how much allegiance should Christians give to nations at all? And so today I kind of wanted to wrestle with that question: is patriotism a sin? Not not politically, biblically, historically, and and and and personally.

Patriotism Borrowing Religious Language

SPEAKER_00 21:56

And so I just want to begin with talking about that, like the the danger of Patriotism. Um before we we critique it, like we need to we need to acknowledge something. Patriotism may be one of the most dangerous temptations available to Christians. And I why is that? Because patriotism borrows the language of religion. Think about it, like a a nation has uh sacred symbols, sacred stories, sacred holidays, sacred rituals, martyrs, pilgrimage sites, songs, liturgies. When you think about all that goes into honoring the nation, the symbols, the stories, the holidays, the rituals, the songs, liturgies. I mean, I I can you believe that when we were in uh kindergarten is when we started getting the teaching? Uh I don't know how I don't want to say brainwashing, but maybe to to to say I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. Like and man, what does that mean to pledge allegiance? To pledge loyalty to someone, to something. I mean, it think about that. Like that, it's kind of an odd thing to say, like, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna pledge my allegiance to you. I think the only vow I've ever pled my allegiance to was my wife at our marriage. And that makes sense. You're saying, I'm pledging allegiance to you. But I I didn't even pledge allegiance to my family. But we pledge allegiance to our country. And so if you were to say, like, well, I would say my family is probably more important to me than my country. I think most of us would say something like that. I would think. But what would it take for you to actually critique your family? It actually doesn't take a lot, right? There's there's probably a lot of you that have said, like, oh yeah, I got some, I got a messed up family. Let me tell you about my uncle. My uncle. And whether I want to tell this story or not, I don't know. But just real quick, I have I had an uncle who who strapped flares to his chest to go rob banks. And, you know, things like that make you go, I love my family, but there's definitely some things I don't love about my family. And there's people in my family that I would say, we could do better. And so, what would it take for you to say we could do better and to not have a blind allegiance to your family or to your country? But I feel like we have more allegiance to our country than we even do our family. You people critique their families all the time, but we we have people who struggle to critique our country. And so I think the the line between a healthy love of country and a worship of country has become incredibly thin. I think sometimes Christians have replaced Jesus is Lord with Jesus supports our nation. I mean, how many times have we saying Jesus is baptizing what we do? Like it's it's the constitution, it's not scripture, the flag, it not the cross. But I think Christians have blurred those distinctions. And so I think one of the great temptations of patriotism is that it allows us to baptize our preferences and call them God's will. But in terms of biblically, how do you think about the you know, a biblical case against patriotism?

The New Testament Against Nationalism

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If you only read the New Testament, you might conclude that patriotism barely matters at all. Because the dominant theme is not citizenship on earth, it's a citizenship in heaven. That's that's Paul and Philippians 3. Our citizenship is in heaven. Very clear. This is Peter, the the rock that the church is built with, right? First Peter 2, he calls Christians foreigners and exiles. I I preached this passage a few weeks ago that we are being called aliens, right? That as much as we don't like using that on you know as a derogatory term to refer to someone else, um, really scripture is calling us this: that we are the outsider, we're the foreigner, we're the we're the alien, the exile. Like we are the outsider. That's how it seemed like we no land ought to have our full allegiance and loyalty. And that's how the earliest Christians view themselves, as people whose primary identity transcended ethnicity, geography, and empire. This is why we would, you know, there's there's no Jew nor Greek, Roman or slave or free. They're all united in Christ. And so Jesus never called people to die for Rome. He called them to take up the cross. Uh, in the Gospel of John 18, in John 18, 36, Jesus says, My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight. My kingdom is not of this world. And this has often been interpreted to mean that Christ's kingdom does not advance through coercion, through violence and nationalism or military power. He's he's saying that like the way of the Christian is different than the way of the world. The way of the world is going to be this way. The kingdoms of this world act through coercion, through violence. I mean, if you were to say, I just want to create my own state right now, the way you do that, you have to mark off land and get that magic Sharpie out and say, this is mine. And the only way for that to be sustainable is for you to defend it militarily. The way of the Christian is saying, that's actually anti-Christ. I will not fight others for an imaginary plot of land. And so the early Christians saw themselves first as citizens of heaven rather than Rome. I mean, think about the Sermon on the Mount. When we preached that a few um years ago now, man, that that actually challenged me to really consider some things. I mean, loving your enemies, it sounds good, but actually, what does that mean at the bare minimum? It means not killing them. That has drastically made me rethink any and all forms of violence. Like Jesus says, pray for those who persecute you. It is really hard to love and to pray for someone that you're actively saying, No, I want us to kill them. Turn the other cheek, bless those who curse you. Like these teachings create enormous tension with nationalism and war. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus tells Peter, put away your sword. Like, pull it back. And, you know, argue um Adam, people who would argue for gun rights and things like that would say, Well, he, but he he told him to bring the sword. And yet he tells him to sheath it, right? Like he he he rebukes Peter for this. Jesus is the way of the cross is the way of death. It's the way, way of I'm not going to assert my power over you, I'm going to come under and serve you. It's the way of forgiveness. The way of victory is not the way of the warrior, it's the way of the lamb. And so for many Christians throughout history, the teachings that led to the conclusion that patriotism is spiritually dangerous is because it encourages loyalties that compete with Christ. Which is why I feel odd that even today at football games, when we do the Pledge of Allegiance or when we do, you know, our national anthem, I it we're we're we're flirting with dangerous stuff here that would compete with our loyalty with Christ. Now, the early church had a a suspicion of the empire. One of the most fascinating facts of the early church was that many early Christians were were deeply uncomfortable with military service. This was something that was was kind of new to me after we were going through the Sermon on the Mount, going, man, what are your what did the church understand this this to mean to actually oppose violence in this way and to love your enemy? And the early church was against, was against serving in the military. Um, for roughly three centuries, Christians lived under the Roman Empire. And the empire promised security, prosperity, national greatness. Any of that sound familiar? Um, but Christians often refused to participate. Why? Because when Rome said Caesar is Lord, Christians answered, no, Jesus is Lord. And that statement was just theologically powerful. It was also political. It was saying, I will not align myself with you. The church was a new society living inside the empire, but belonging to another kingdom. Now, someone here will say, All sounds good, Slim, all kind of uh high and mighty.

Romans 13 And A Nuanced Reading

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But what about Romans 13? Romans 13, have we not considered it? Yes. Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Rulers are not to ter not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval, for it's God's servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain. It is the servant of God to execute the wrath on the wrongdoer. So, what do we do with that? This is the part that I think it gets to be um nuanced and complicated, and you have to put on our thinking caps. And also, I think it gives us a moment to go, hey, let's have grace for people who would disagree on this. Like let's let's come alongside people and not just say you're idiots who might disagree on this. I do think it it's gonna take a lot of sitting and community and talking with one another rather than shouting at one another. Um, but yeah, Romans 13, right there, right there uh in our in our Bibles to be subject to the governing authorities. And so is our government, our governing authority, the institution of God's reign here on earth? Like is it is it God's presence working through our government? And on one level, yes, right. But at the same time, you would have to say, if that's true, then there are many God-given authorities that also use that in negative ways. And you can think of all of the evil empires throughout history, whether it's Hitler or Stalin, that they in their nation were the governing authority there. And so I just I think it's helpful. This is from uh John Howard Yoder. His comment, I think, is insightful. He says, God is not said to create or ordain the powers that be, but only to order them, to put them in order, sovereignly to tell them where they belong, what is their place. It is not as if there was a time when there was no government and then God made government through a new creative intervention. There has been hierarchy and authority and power since human society existed. Its exercise has involved domination, disrespect for human dignity, and real or potential violence ever since sin has existed. Nor is it that by ordering this realm, God specifically morally approves of what a government does. The sergeant does not produce the soldiers he drills, the librarian does not create nor approve of the book she or he catalogs and shelves. Likewise, God does not take the responsibility for the existence of the rebellious powers that be, or for their shape or identity they already are. What the text says is that God orders them, brings them into line, providentially and permissively lines them up with divine purpose. And I think that's a helpful reminder when we see these, is that um the government is it's it's here to be um an instrument of God, and these are things we want to. And you know, Peter uh says, honor the emperor, and when the emperor was doing terrible things, but doesn't say you are baptizing what they're doing.

Kingdom Power And Greg Boyd’s Warning

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Because if you think about, you know, when when the devil tempted Jesus to give him all the kingdoms of the world, remember that? You know, he he Jesus goes off in and the devil tempts him, says I'll give you all this. Uh to you I will give their glory and and all this authority, uh, for it has been given to me, and I give it to anyone I please. And what's interesting is that Jesus doesn't, he he says no, but he doesn't dispute the devil's claim to own these authorities. And so apparently the authority of all kingdoms of this world has been given to Satan. And I think that's really important for us to think about. Every kingdom has been given authority, its authority has been given to Satan. Because a kingdom is, as Revelation shows us, it's symbolized as Babylon, this violent world empire that opposes God at every turn in the book of Revelation. And as I said, if you wanted to start your own nation, all you have to do is get that Sharpie out and then get your weapons out to defend your land. And that is antichrist. And so to accept that means that while believers should strive to be good citizens, praying and working for peace and justice, they must always practice a healthy suspicion towards the power over sword-wielding government that they are subject to. Uh, that line comes from um this book I'm reading, The Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd. And so I think that's that's really helpful for us to be thinking about when we're thinking about our relationship with our government. If every government, not just American, every government's authority is really Satan's authority, that changes how we view it, I would think. And uh another quote from uh Boyd's book, he says, much of the profound animosity Islamic terrorists feel towards satanic America as they refer to it, is fueled by a cultural memory of what Christians did to Muslims during the Crusades. And you can go all the way down the list between all these wars that happened throughout history. Why did that happen? Well, because they did this and they did this and they did this and they did this. It's all because of this power over one another to satanically try to harm the other, to take your land, to to do this, to do that. It's this coercive way of living in these governments. And that it's antichrist. And yet, everything about our belief on that, as I said, the early Christians, that's that's that was their understanding of the government. Everything that we believe about that got changed back when Constantine became emperor.

Constantine And The Church With A Sword

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Like it's it's hard to um overemphasize the change that came through Christianity when Emperor Constantine in 312 AD was converted to Christianity. When he became a Christian, everything changed. He Constantine legalized Christianity in AD 13, uh, 313. And then, because of the association with Constantine, the religion immediately exploded with popularity. It would now become popular to be Christian. And then within 70 years, it was proclaimed the official religion of the Roman Empire. And then it was made a crime to not be a Christian. Ooh. Starting to lose the storyline here. We're starting to lose what this doesn't feel like Christianity anymore. And as Charlemagne instructed his Christian troops in their conquest of the Saxon Saxons, he says, if there's any one of the Saxon people lurking among them unbaptized, and if he scorns to come to baptism and stay a pagan, let him die. And that sacrificial love for one another is dying with that. We have lost the plot. And Augustine, who was the first theologian to align the church in an official way with the use of the sword. Augustine, who now justifies the use of force by arguing that inflicting temporal pain to help someone avoid eternal pain is justified. And so all this, I think, is the question is worth asking. Did the church convert the empire or did the empire convert the church? And that's why this is so dangerous. Patriotism becomes so dangerous, and the hit history is littered with sobering examples where Christians have blessed wars on every side of nearly every conflict. You know, there's German Christians, right? There's there's British Christians, there's American Christians, there's Russian Christians, there's Ukrainian Christians, there's Iranian Christians. And all can be convinced and have been that God is on their side. And Pete Hegseth recently is just uh a mouthpiece of this. He's our Secretary of Defense, or they changed it to Secretary of War. And uh at one of the, I think it was the prayer breakfast, he says, not only are we warriors armed with arsenal of freedom, we ultimately are armed with the arsenal of faith and have been from the beginning. And so, in his view, he is not just working on behalf of this the nation state of America, he is working on behalf of God. And so patriotism becomes dangerous in this way. It's such a love for country, it becomes a fusing of God and country. Therefore, a criticism of your country feels like a criticism of God. And national symbols become sacred, and political parties become articles of faith, and military power becomes a source of ultimate hope. And the nation receives the loyalty that only belongs to Christ. And the Bible has a word for ultimate misplaced loyalty. It's called idolatry. And so the issue isn't whether you love your country, it's whether we love it too much. I mean, think back on that family of you, of yours. If you have loyalty your family, that's beautiful. If you love your family, amen. If your love for your family pushes you to overlook a pedophile in your family, to overlook uh abuse that's happening, now that's called idolatry. Loyalty is now idolatry. There has to be a healthy critique of these things. This is why I love that James Baldwin quote. He says, I love America more than any other country in this world. And it's exactly for this reason I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually. I love that. It's because we love something that we actually insist on the right to critique it perpetually. Always. Now, I'm sure if someone critiqued you always, that you might wonder whether you whether you actually love them. But think of the opposite. Think of something that you just hate. You usually have these strong emotions towards things because you actually really want them to be better. Right? When you want something to be better, whether it's your your alma mater, whether it's your your family, you you you think about a lot. Because the opp the opposite of love is not hate or anger, it's apathy. And I think if we let our nation continue to take God's name in vain like this, and say, this is all fine. Yep, let's celebrate 250. Like everything's great. America, the beautiful, the wonderful. I think it will only produce more apathy for it in the end. It's actually gonna be fascinating. for us.

Patriotism Versus Nationalism Defined

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Now let me give you real quick the I would say the strongest case for patriotism. Now the Bible never teaches patriotism but it does not it also it also does not teach contempt for one's homeland. And so I think really what I think it might be helpful is to distinguish patriotism versus nationalism. Patriotism I think is gratitude and affection and responsibility toward one's country. Nationalism is believing one's nation is superior and uniquely righteous or deserving of ultimate allegiance. Now some people might use those terms interchangeably but the way I I I I think about it is patriotism is is more of a a a an affection or a love for your your land your country and nationalism is seen as superior. And so one of the strongest arguments in scripture that consistently teaches people is to yeah love God, love neighbor um and to love where you live to serve the communities where God has placed you. You know just as Christians are called to love their family, their church, their city, they may also be um appropriately called to love their nation. I mean think about you know Jeremiah 29 seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you it's to love it. Now Jeremiah you know this is in slavery, right? This is not something that I think he genuinely would be tempted to form into a nationalistic view, but it's to love where you're at. And I think that's true on my in on your neighborhood block. To love your neighbors, the people across from you, the people that to on either side of you, the people behind you, wherever it is it's actually love where you're at again to not have treat it as an idol, but to love it. Paul repeatedly used another thing you could say is Paul repeatedly used his Roman citizenship. He brought it up as saying like hey I that and it wasn't him condemning it. And so I think patriotism in this view is not worshiping the nation but it's caring about its good. And so if you want something to be good you work to reform it to change it. And I do think there are there is a way for us to s I don't want to make everything kind of a a middle ground way but I do think there is clearly and we've seen this all over the place there is a unhealthy patriotism that is really just nationalism and it's just it's it's that's what we we've just been critiquing for the the last 45 minutes. But there's also probably a another view of that of just like an unhealthy hatred towards where you're at and not a having an appreciation for this. And so I think there's probably a way to do this if you can think about this going back to your family to say yes there's a lot to reform my family but also there might be not a lot to love but where's the sliver where's the the one percent of something that I can appreciate to say like no this is good. Like this is something worth worth worth celebrating in my family. I think it's a healthy practice when you meet other human beings when someone you you might disagree with on 99% of the things let's find the 1% and say here's where our common ground let's let's start there and you know I I think of uh David French had this this great quote um he he said recently on a a podcast he said um that uh America's uh that democracy is the the worst form of government except for every other one um he says the things we've forgotten about democracy is that it's the worst form of government except for every other one and then we shouldn't have to endure uh an authoritarian regime to rediscover our love for democracy um and I think that's helpful um way of seeing this is that there's a lot to critique about America right now and there's a lot that's not working it feels like it's more of an oligarchy that just the rich are going to continue to get rich. There's a lot to to critique but it's the worst form of government except for all the other ones. Now I've not my confession I've not actually sat down and researched every other government um out there to say I wholeheartedly agree with him on that but I think it is a helpful thing for us to to then also have a a healthy sense of like no there are some good things here that we can can say no this is good. I love my country enough to celebrate its virtues and confront its failures. And so I think love and honesty have to belong together at all times. So is patriotism a sin? I don't think patriotism is necessarily a sin but I do think patriotism is uniquely vulnerable to becoming one. The New Testament never commands it it repeatedly commands allegiance to Christ and that means patriotism must remain subordinate and realize the nations that we're called to make disciples of also will have a patriotism or a love for their country and may our love for our country never interfere with that mission. That it's Christ before country kingdom before nation cross before flag and Christians should be the best citizens because they recognize that no nation is ultimate like we can celebrate the good mourn the evil work for justice love our neighbors serve our communities and still remember that every earthly kingdom is temporary.

Final Takeaways And Listener Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 49:36

And so America at 250 years old is worth reflecting on good and bad Trump is right though these are just artificial lines the kingdom of God is older larger and far more enduring and if we're ever to choose between the two Christians have already begun giving their answer and they said Jesus is Lord not Caesar not America not any nation Jesus and if that's where we're at it's a good place to be all that's that's a lot and uh you may I also prefer it to be a more give and take conversation style with uh my my partner but as you know he is uh he's off resting so we uh we continue to to hope he can find that rest and solace um I have this crazy idea that I might try to do this weekly while Malcolm is gone we'll see we'll see what happens next week but hey y'all thanks so much for listening to theology and pieces um man if you found any of this helpful would you let let me know um email hello at theologyandpieces dot com um you can hit the the message button on the app as well um and if you have liked any of this please like share review all of the things it really does help us it's the simplest easiest most free way of supporting this work.