Malcolm Returns And The Banter

SPEAKER_08 0:26

Back from the dead.

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I have returned. I'm making my triumphal my triumphal entry.

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Yes. The king or the prodigal sons.

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Whichever. Whichever works.

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Welcome to Theology Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces. We are your host. Back together again, Slim and Malcolm.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

I'm sorry that you all have had to deal with Slim on his own for these past three podcasts or whatever. Just monologuing at you for an hour. If you're into that. I mean, if you're into that, cool. Like, I mean, you know.

SPEAKER_08 1:00

It was like me and my podcast listeners, my podcast listeners. Yeah. We're on a little date, okay? Yeah, that's fine. Because I hear you've been dating.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Look.

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If you don't know, Malcolm is on this other podcast that has got a few followers with the Holy Post and Esau Macaulay's podcast, which fine. Whatever, man. Fine. He even did it on a sabbatical, but love you.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Dear listener, we are not just gonna Esau's not my best friend. You are. Oh.

SPEAKER_08 1:37

Okay, okay.

A Monastery Sabbath And Quiet Prayer

SPEAKER_08 1:40

That is making all the things better. Well, today we are going to be uh discussing the Lord's Supper. Uh what it is and who it's for.

SPEAKER_07 1:48

Fancy.

SPEAKER_08 1:49

Um, but we have so much to catch up on, Malcolm.

SPEAKER_07 1:51

Do we?

SPEAKER_08 1:52

You've been gone.

SPEAKER_07 1:53

I have.

SPEAKER_08 1:53

You've been the the prodigital son.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Prodigital? I don't know if that's a word. Um yeah, it's been a it was a great sabbatical, man.

SPEAKER_08 2:01

Yeah. What was what was the high?

SPEAKER_02 2:04

What was the uh by far uh the four days I spent at St. John's Abbey up in Collegeville, Minnesota. Okay. With my father. So you went to a commune. I I mean my spiritual father, but also like doesn't the Lord, but also my my actual dad.

SPEAKER_08 2:17

So you went with a physical father? Yes. A spiritual father.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

No, I mean I moved who's a spiritual father? No, no, no, no, no. Like I didn't go with my spiritual father. How many dads That's even another set of situations? No, I'm talking about like the Lord, like the father, the Lord, the like God. God there. But Yahweh. Also, my dad, but my dad, like no, no, no, no, no, no. My father according to the flesh.

SPEAKER_06 2:42

Okay, so simply you and your dad went.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Went to a monastery. Went to a monastery.

SPEAKER_08 2:48

And what's the difference there?

SPEAKER_02 2:49

You know. Make it sound like it's a cult. It's it it was a monastery. It's a bunch of monks, a bunch of Benedictine monks.

SPEAKER_08 2:55

Did you all wear robes?

SPEAKER_02 2:56

No, we did not. Did anyone or our normal clothing? Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, the monks were in robes.

SPEAKER_08 3:00

Okay. And did you feel the need to robe up?

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Uh no, because I'm not a monk. And I, as much as I mean, when I went into this sabbatical, I think I think part of what I was struggling with was uh what is called the sin of Acadia. And the way that that manifests itself in monks is it's like when you get a monk in their cell and they're and they're like, you know what? I really wish I could return to the world. I've given up all this stuff, but this life that I've been called to is too hard. I really like I I really wish I could, I could go, I could go back to the world. I exper I was experiencing that in the opposite. I was thinking about kind of uh my life as a as a father and husband and pastor and all these things. I was like, you know what? It would be so much easier if I could just be a monk. And and and and and the words of uh Father Moses the Black, one of the one of the desert fathers, nice, uh, what he says to monks is stay in your cell and your cell will teach you everything. And and I have taken that now. I mean, in thinking about the ways in which the Lord has called me to be like I said, father, husband, uh, pastor, that like that is my that is my monastic cell. And so, um, and so I I uh I needed, but that time, that six weeks of time, I mean, I I needed to be reminded of that and rejuvenated to be able to kind of go back into go back into the world, so to speak. Uh my dad and I joked after we left the monastery, they were like, oh no, now we have to descend from the mountain and return to the demon-possessed valley. Um hard descent, but all right, we're back.

SPEAKER_08 4:43

Have you casted any demons out since your return?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

No, I was just watching them. Um but but no, it was great. I mean, like, so we we went from like a Tuesday to a Saturday. Nice. Uh came in Tuesday evening, and then for Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, we did uh morning, midday, and evening prayer with the with the monks. And the and the prayer services were literally just, it's just like you do a hymn, you're chanting the psalms, and uh, and there's a and there's a uh a prayer, just kind of a litany, a litany prayer that you pray for the world and for the church and and and for others. And uh and both of us were just like, oh yeah, like this is this is our this is our speed. Um and like and and my dad, I mean, my dad had only like his first time going to any kind of Catholic service was a was a funeral number uh uh a number of months ago, and uh, and he was just surprised by how much scripture there was at this at this mass. But he also like really liked incense. I'm like, dad, I really like incense too.

SPEAKER_06 5:40

Uh and and we and that and not something I would have been like, oh, dad I know retired me too.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Federal judge, I didn't I didn't know that either. I didn't know that either. But he's like, Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

And so when we so uh I think it was the Tuesday that we were there, it was the feast of um the birth of John the Baptist, and John the Baptist is the patron saint of that of that particular abbey too. And so they had so it was like the it was the evening prayer service, and uh and it was just a little bit different, but there was there was more incense and candles and stuff, and my and my and and my dad was like, this is great, I love this. I'm like, me too, dad. I love all of this. So anyway, okay. There was that. Yeah, and it was it was a good time though.

SPEAKER_08 6:22

When uh you had messaged with me, I think immediately afterwards, you were were sharing how you basically read most of the New Testament.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Yeah, so in that week? Because I was I was I was trying to start this chapter of this new book that I'm writing where um where I want to kind of lay out in the in the epistles of the New Testament what are what are we told about our about our future with Christ? So all the like just the wild things about us sharing with Christ and his glory and stuff like that. And so over the course of those days, I just I reread Romans through Jude, um just like in a few sittings, because like I I haven't done a screen free day in like I can't remember. And so Thursday I was like, I'm just having a screen free day. And I like I I also don't think I spent that much concentrated time in scripture, like ever. I was just wear I mean, like you we'd wake up, uh morning prayer would be at seven.

unknown 7:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah. And then we'd do well would it be at seven? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It would be at seven, and then we'd do like like a light breakfast, and then we'd return to our rooms. Yeah. Um, but we could also like walk in the woods or walk by the lake and stuff, and then um, and then midday prayer would be at noon, and then evening prayer would be at seven. And so we just do this just like lunch prayer breakfast, it would be prayer, breakfast, and then lunch prayer, and then dinner prayer, and then and then and then and then we'd then we'd go to bed. Um and uh Yeah, and and and in and in that in-between time, I mean, I I would just I would just read. And I I I brought other books with me, but I'd also just spent a significant amount of time just in the in the new in the New Testament. It was it was great, man. It was great. And I found my new like life verse as a as a pastor. Um just uh greet each other with a holy kiss. No, no, uh, but close. Uh no, no, I'm Colossians one uh twenty-seven to twenty-nine.

SPEAKER_08 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Um Paul says to them to uh to to them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. It is he whom we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone in all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil and strive with all the energy that he powerfully inspires within me. And when I read those verses, I was like, yeah, that's like that's how I feel. That is exactly that's that's the reason why I do all the stuff that I do. It's for Christ, Christ, Christ in you, the hope of the hope of glory. Um and so uh but it was also just like it was a good experience to just I'm I'm so used to reading, particularly the epistles, in a piecemeal way, and to just sit down in a few sittings and just read entire, just to read entire letters. Um it was really it was just a really cool, really cool thing. Um and very it was just it was quiet. We didn't do it as a silent retreat, but it was but it was quiet. Um it was just it was it was wonderful. That sounds awesome. It was great. That makes me if I could do that like every year, it'd be great.

SPEAKER_08 9:22

Yeah, yeah. I mean we should do we gotta do it.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

We should we should do it together.

SPEAKER_08 9:27

All right, we you and I we'll talk offline.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

Yeah, we'll talk offline.

SPEAKER_08 9:30

Yeah, um well what what was there a low, a high and a low? Was there a low to the the sabbatical? Was there like was it hard to to be not on and to No.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

I love here's the thing, like I love like I rest is already really, really important to me. And Malcolm loves his rest. I do. And granted, this also like this this month, I mean like the the month of June particularly, I spent more of June out of Waco than in Waco because I was in Chicago teaching a class at uh at Northern Seminary, and then immediately after coming back from that, we went to uh Destin, Florida for a beach vacation. And then a few days after we came back from that, yeah, I was in Minnesota. So there was it was a lot, a lot of travel. Um, but but all great. And then I mean I felt I mean literally after after the monastery trip, I was like that was like all of the benefit of the of the of the sabbatical. If I I like that that was six weeks worth of value right right right there. So nice. Um yeah, it was great.

SPEAKER_08 10:36

Well, you were missed. Uh and I missed my church. Uh podcast listeners, if you uh you did you did miss Malcolm, please uh let him know. Uh write write in. Uh you know, if you are uh do go to Mour Church here in Waco, Texas. Um please you know tell him in person. But uh please write in as well. Um and as you said, I I did press on without you. Uh it was it was it was you did it was uh masterful. Um it was, yeah. Oh yeah. Um uh I don't know if you got got to listen to any, but um there was uh we had some mailbag, we have some questions and that I'll let you answer.

Listener Pushback On Populism

SPEAKER_04 11:14

Uh oh.

SPEAKER_08 11:15

No. Uh wait, we have one here uh from our last episode said, Hi Slim, I'm listening to your latest episode, and you said something about Graham Platinum. Are you familiar with any of the Graham Platner stuff, Melvin? Oh yeah. Yeah. Uh he said it didn't make much sense to me. Uh you said the Democratic Party pushed him through despite knowing he had a dark past. However, the Democratic Party has largely been opposed to Plattner. Uh Maine's governor Janet Mills ran against him in the primary and lost in part because the public resonated with Platiner's political message and felt Mills had let Maine down and was disconnected from their needs. I point all this to say that Platiner had a real populist movement behind him uh that was organic and grassroots driven, not by the uh power of the Democratic Party. Even though I don't have any personal connection with Maine, I was one of many outside the state excited about this his cannase until this week. I think it's important when we talk about these topics to understand the people who are behind the movements represented by a single man or woman, especially in this case, because they are honestly betrayed by Platinum. Happy to talk more on the uh topic if you're interested. Um I think it's a a great uh thank you for listening, uh but also to chime in. Now that we want these um podcasts one of the reasons we do it is for uh more nuanced conversations, and you can only have those when you have a little bit more space and time and not in the you know the 30-minute sermon or in Malcolm's case 20-minute sermon or or whatever it may be. Um so please uh continue writing. Um and I think I think I think it's a good pushback. Um I don't disagree with him. I think I did say something along the Democratic Party. Um I think they you're you're right in that sense that there was like you know, some people trying to push other folks in the the space, uh Democratic Party. Um but I do think there were you know other senators like Rokan and others who um ultimately endorsed him um and backed him. That's you know, since some more stuff came out, have said, you know, that was a bad move. We don't we don't we we regret that. Um and so like Yeah, fair. Um and I think I I do love that it was grassroots driven. I think that that is that is that is you know pretty cool um in that but he did choose to run.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

I mean he chose to run chose to run to run with that party, won that, won that particular democratic primary. Like that's the part like I mean that and Democrat voters voted for it.

SPEAKER_08 13:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like he he clearly won that. Um which again, he had the Nazi tab too, he had the sexual uh few things going on. Yeah, stuff a few things, a few things going on. And then the assault stuff made it very clear, which is like, oh there's just but I think it was a it was a prime example, I think, going back to the last episode, of we're we're more willing to look past someone we want to be in power's sins and go like, well, let's hope the best for.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Maybe maybe he's on the path to it's quote unquote better than the alternative. And that is the is the argument that goes through our minds.

SPEAKER_08 14:04

I can't remember uh I think it was George, but George Bush had a quote that was along those lines of like you you look for the best in your guy and the worst in the other guy. And I think it's helpful for us to, you know, maybe try to flip that every now and then and go like what could be true in my our own person that works we're supporting, and what am I, you know, believing a lie about someone else? Um so I think it's helpful.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

This is why I'm just tending toward Christian anarchy at this point. But anyway, that's fine.

SPEAKER_06 14:33

In light of that. Anyway.

War Culture And Testosterone Talk

SPEAKER_06 14:38

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_08 14:41

Oh man, Malcolm, did you know things can get terrible?

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Uh no. I thought the world was great and sunshine and rainbows.

SPEAKER_06 14:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Are you about to bring all this down for me?

SPEAKER_06 14:49

No, everything's great. Everything's great.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

America's great and the most wonderful and virtuous nation on earth and all these types of things.

SPEAKER_08 14:57

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

That's the world in which I live.

SPEAKER_08 15:00

That is not accurate where we're at. Uh, I don't think I don't know if you saw this on your um you know cult commune thing that you were doing. Uh-huh. Right. Um there was a there was a recent post from our uh Secretary of War about the high T department of war. This is his tweet.

SPEAKER_07 15:20

Oh internet. Sorry for the technical difficulties. I I swear. It's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_06 15:31

It's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_08 15:33

We're doing it live. No pressure. Remember how often we said that?

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Which is why we must constantly look for new ways to optimize your performance, your resilience, and your long-term health. That sounds good. And to meet that commitment today, a new screening program for testosterone deficiency. Ensuring you have the right testosterone levels to operate at your absolute best.

SPEAKER_06 16:02

Yeah! So we're gonna give This sounds like a commercial for something else. It is very like he puts that like you're like, do you work for Cialis?

SPEAKER_02 16:12

This sounds like a performance enhanced drug commercial.

SPEAKER_08 16:17

The high T Department of War.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

My goodness.

SPEAKER_08 16:20

We are literally in the middle of a war that's spiraling to include more and more countries, and he's putting a commercial out on we need people with higher testosterone. Is that something that you feel like we should be concerned about, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Wild. Uh no. No, what? Look, I think we should be concerned about getting out of war, but you know, whatever. It's fine.

SPEAKER_08 16:42

Well, here's how here's how Jesse Waters responded to that.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

So yeah, I want these guys on it, but you know what's gonna happen? The guys that don't need it are gonna take it. It's a triple boost. Right. And then they're gonna get out there, and women on base, you guys better be careful. Port calls women in Asia, you better be careful because these guys are gonna be wild animals, and you better watch out.

SPEAKER_07 17:07

Good gracious.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's gross, right? I mean, it's all it is, it is already one of the I mean, if not the most brutal and sick part of war.

SPEAKER_06 17:21

Democrats. Go on. I may have jumped the gun. I may have jumped the gun.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Threw me completely off my game, Flynn.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Goodness gracious. Anyway, I was trying, I was trying to be serious. Go on. One of the most brutal and sick elements of war is specifically the widespread sexual violence that's that's that's associated with literally every I mean almost every armed conflict. Um the the most uh I mean you get every you get every form of violence, but but but paired with the violence of actually killing folks is also is is very often sexual violence. And so um yeah, I mean like that's not that's that's nothing to uh uh that's nothing that to to chuckle about. Like I mean, like that's a real like it is a real and serious risk um and and and reality.

SPEAKER_08 18:17

Um absolutely disgusting from a Fox News host, uh Jesse Waters. But he's also maybe not completely wrong. Oh, he's not wrong. He's not wrong at all. I mean that's the wild thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

But he's laughing about it as if like yeah, you can't stop it. It's like an awkward laughter. I I mean I I have I awkwardly laugh at things too.

SPEAKER_08 18:44

There's so much in our in our in society right now.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

That's dark.

SPEAKER_08 18:48

There is so much that I'm just I'm like, how is this happening? How are we doing this?

SPEAKER_07 18:54

That's wild.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Like that's wild, bro.

SPEAKER_08 18:57

It is wild.

SPEAKER_05 18:58

It makes me want to say You take the the B out. Most people don't know that dumb has a bee, okay?

SPEAKER_08 19:04

So it makes me reminds me that how dumb things are in our society. And just so you know, dumb has a B.

SPEAKER_06 19:11

Most people didn't know. Most people didn't know Dumb has a B. Where are we? How is this our reality?

SPEAKER_08 19:25

Oh man speaking of war, Malcolm, my last thing I want to say.

SPEAKER_07 19:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_08 19:29

Oh my goodness. Last night.

SPEAKER_07 19:31

What

The Odyssey As A Mirror

SPEAKER_07 19:32

happened last night?

SPEAKER_08 19:32

Last night was a great night.

SPEAKER_07 19:34

Uh oh. What happened last night?

SPEAKER_08 19:35

Last night, I went I we we we had a guy's night.

SPEAKER_07 19:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_08 19:38

My dad and my boys.

SPEAKER_07 19:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 19:41

We went to go see the Odyssey.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_08 19:44

I I had to go check common sense media on whether the boys could go.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

I just talked about this on another podcast. I haven't seen, I haven't seen the Odyssey.

SPEAKER_08 19:52

Oh, it speaking of war, yeah, like it is such a good, like, like I I had heard I've not read the Odyssey, but I had heard I I I've heard the story of Troy and the the Trojan horse thing. Yeah. And I'm like, like, I just knew it to be like this like epic of you know, like taking down Troy and how you know crazy, you know, hard that was. And I'm like, cool. Yeah, like and like in ingenious way to get inside of Troy in Troy inside of Troy. And I didn't realize like this story, it's Christopher Nolan, so you know it's gonna be good. Um, and despite what all of the like very niche conservatives are saying about this story, they're like, Oh, I can't believe this is like you know, so D I casted, and you're like, Why like you don't know who the the Greeks were in 800 BC. Like, you don't know what they looked like, let alone your white Jesus that we seem to be fine with. But uh, I saw this uh as a decent summary of this. It said, the diverse castes in modern language weren't about wokeness, they were to remind you that the story isn't about ancient Greece, it's about us. Nolan takes a 3,000-year-old epic and turns it into a mirror for the modern world by making the Trojan horse the moment Xenia, the sacred law of hospitality, is weaponized. He transforms it into the original sin that makes the honor itself exploitable. The film isn't asking what happened to Troy, it's asking what happened to us. And I heard a interview between um uh uh with Nolan and how he was uh like, yeah, this is almost in a sense a sequel to Oppenheimer, yeah. And that at the end of Oppenheimer's like, what did we just at what cost do to the world? At what cost? And that's kind of what the Trojan horse was like, what did we just allow into the world like to to exploit the xenophobia?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 21:40

And well, to exploit the hospitality.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

The law of Zeus, the law of the law of the law, the law of hospitality. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was fantastic. Nice. Yeah. I mean, I I will probably go see it this some sometime this week.

SPEAKER_08 21:50

So it's only you know, two and three hours long.

SPEAKER_07 21:55

No, it's great. You got time. Shoot, I'll probably go tonight.

SPEAKER_08 21:58

Facts for endless. I got time. No, no. We got some other things to talk about. Malcolm's. Okay. What are we going to talk about, son? I don't know. All right. Hey, we um want to not just talk about the absurdities and the dumb things in this world

What Communion Is Supposed To Be

SPEAKER_08 22:21

with a B. Okay. Um, we want to talk about some weightier substantive things. And so we had a good question on Sunday uh from one of our uh congregants about what is happening in communion. Ooh. And I thought, you know, I can't believe we've not we've not done done this. And so uh I thought this is the this is the the medium for this conversation. And I I think it came out of um maybe a misunderstanding of uh maybe.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Maybe what it came one of the things that it came out of is because before I do the Lord's Supper at Mosaic, I have a series of prayers that I do. And it's out of a book, it's out of a prayer book that I have. Just happens to be an Orthodox prayer book. Um, and so there are prayers of preparation for the supper and things like that. So it's not like it's not like what you would hear in like an Orthodox church during the divine liturgy when it when the priest does what does what the priest does. But um, but there are prayers of prayers of prayers of preparation um where you uh you know where you you are preparing yourself to commune in in the divine in the divine mysteries. Um and and and integral to that divine mystery is the fact that like when we take of this bread and this wine, we are eating the flesh of Christ and we are drinking his blood. Um and and uh yeah, and like that's what we're and the and the fact of the matter is that most of the most of the Christian tradition affirms affirms affirms that that's what you're doing uh in the Lord's Supper. Now, folks will disagree um as to like the metaphysics of like what's of what's going on, but um the nature of Christ's presence in the supper and things like that. People people I mean literal wars were fight were fought over this, particularly among Protestants.

SPEAKER_05 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Um but but but but there's one thing that at least uh most Christians are on the are on the same page about, which is that like, no, this is this is his body and it and is his and is his blood.

SPEAKER_08 24:27

Yeah. And that's where the the question happens is what does it mean to say this is my body, this

1 Corinthians 11 And Real Warnings

SPEAKER_08 24:34

is my blood. Um let's do a little Bible study. Let's let's let's go to First Corinthians 11. Dun dun dun. This is the uh the chapter you would look to to talk about the Lord's Supper and what it is, who's it for? Uh this is Paul's letter to the First Corinthians, if you remember anything about the first Corinthians uh or the church in course. Thank you. Thank you. Um it is a messy church. Um some might question whether they're Christians or not. He Paul does not. They're just young.

SPEAKER_06 25:03

They're just young. They're just figuring out just confused.

SPEAKER_08 25:09

Um sleeping with each other.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

It's like your teenage child, it's like your teenage kids. Like, you need to love it. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_08 25:15

I'm sorry, what? Uh huh. I mean sleeping with each other. You said like your teenage kids.

SPEAKER_07 25:20

Not your teenage kids. I'm sorry. It's like, I'm sorry, what?

SPEAKER_08 25:23

Not true.

SPEAKER_07 25:25

Anyway. Come on sorry, I'm gonna rub this.

SPEAKER_08 25:28

1 Corinthians 11. Um let's begin in 17. Uh, this it's a it's a whole section, um, but I think it's it's helpful uh to understand the context of what's happening here. Uh so he's writing about all these different things. He's he's uh talking about head coverings and worship, uh, he's talking about um you know warnings from Israel's history, um idol feasts and the Lord's Supper, um, all that. So here we go. Verse 17, it says, in the following directors, I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. Oh my goodness, that is a mic drop if I ever see one. Um could we say that about any church in Waco? Let's talk about it. No, I'm just joking. But I would say it's probably true about some churches. If Paul's willing to say that about 1 Corinthians, your meetings do more harm than good. Golly. If Jesus or one of his um folks, like Paul, wrote a letter to Mosaic saying that, I think I was like, Do you pack it up? That would be rough. That would be rough. Uh never remember, these are house churches, these are not you know some uh giant gathering of the saints. These are house churches, your means do more on the good. All right, 18. In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you. And to some extent, I believe it. It's not hard to believe that there are divisions among you. No doubt there have there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. So then when you come together, it is not the Lord's supper you eat. Oh. For when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or you do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter. And then this is the what you may have heard many times. For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you. That the Lord Jesus on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you, do this in remembrance of me. In the same way, after supper, he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this whenever you drink it in memorance of me. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Um going back up here, he said, um uh going back a few verses here. Um he's critiquing them for what, Malcolm, um, so far.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Uh so far, he's critiquing them for uh basically not thinking about basically not thinking about each other as they eat this, as they eat this supper. And so there are so there are so there are some who don't eat, and then there are some who uh indulge in uh uh in gluttony.

SPEAKER_08 28:16

So it's like if if I were to have, you know, if house church, I know house church and small groups are not synonymous, but like that size probably uh of small groups, and you said, Hey, we're having a small group at our house, everyone's invited, and you have, let's say, I don't know, 20 people come uh for a larger small group, and three families come late and we're like, Oh, we ate it all. How do those three families feel? Like, am I welcome? Yeah, and and it's not just they came late, it's the poor that do not get it.

SPEAKER_04 28:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 28:51

And so you're adding to their um Am I welcome here? Do I am I um not a person like like you all? Right? So it's it's adding and it's and so that that is the the context here, uh right? Um so then he says the you know he's instituting that saying, like, you know, you guys should be uh honoring one another in this way. Um and then he institutes the the Lord's Supper, and then verse 27, so then whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, what does that mean to be to eat and drink the cup in an unworthy manner?

SPEAKER_07 29:34

I think we'd have to read on to find out what that means.

SPEAKER_08 29:36

Will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. Oh goodness. This is why many of you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. That is not normally You died.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Not not discern not discerning the body can kill you. Yes.

SPEAKER_08 30:08

So what is happening here? You want to finish reading this? Sure. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world. So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home. Not a snack! That's the title of the episode. It's not a snack.

SPEAKER_07 30:40

It isn't. That's very important to affirm.

SPEAKER_08 30:43

So that when you meet together, it may not result in judgment. And when I come, I will get further directions.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 30:50

Did we get any of those further directions?

SPEAKER_02 30:53

I don't think we got. I mean, we don't we don't have access to what those further directions are.

SPEAKER_08 30:57

Paul, Paul, focus up. Uh info at uh pieces. Yeah. Let us know. Uh all right. So this is where like the the the crux of it is is what does it mean to eat and drink uh judgment on yourself, and what does it mean to discern the body the body and the blood?

Discerning The Body And Examination

SPEAKER_08 31:17

Um first.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

So discern the body. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 31:20

First stab at it, Malcolm.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Uh I think it means two things. Uh so because the body of Christ means two things in this particular text. Um I and and I take it literally in both of these senses, because Paul articulates it literally in this in this way. So one, the body of Christ is like the bread is the body of Christ. That's what that's what that's what Jesus says. So we so the so so a part of the discerning of the body is recognizing that this bread, bread is the body, blood, or um uh wine is the blood. Second thing though is that, and and and this is why like I also wants to really take seriously the fact that Paul calls the church the body of Christ. Um, like he's he's being very, very serious. Like it's like the you if you if you are to think of what Christ's body looks like on earth, it looks like the church. And so, and and and if you are if you are a member of that body, that also means that you recognize the other members of that body as members, as members of you. And so for you to exploit them, for you to uh, for you to take advantage of them, for you to eat in in in ignorance of them, and uh all that kind of stuff, that is a you are you are failing, you are failing to discern the body. It's what even even when we think about um so the way that the way that Jesus frames uh reconciliation in the Sermon on the Mount, where he's like, if you have an offering to bring, make sure that you reconcile with your neighbor that you have an issue with before you bring that before you bring that offering.

SPEAKER_05 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Uh, I think Paul is Paul is doing something very similar here. He's like, Don't don't get don't think that you can just don't think that you can just worship the Lord and not and not have these actual relationships with your with with your brothers and sisters who are members of the members of the same of the same body as you. So I think both of those things, I mean both of those things are present because you have both of those framings of the body of Christ even in this particular passage. You have the words of Jesus in referring to the bread as his body, and you have um and you have the way that the way that Paul talks about the church of God as the body, uh, as the body of Christ as well. Um and so I would say both are uh both are both are both are operating both are operating there.

SPEAKER_08 33:45

So let's let's examine this. All right. So uh what use the word examine. You must examine yourself. What are we supposed to be doing at that moment?

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Yeah, you're supposed to make sure uh you're supposed to make sure that you that you are not uh that you're not harboring not only uh kind of not only that you're that you're that you're that you're coming to the table um with a with a re with a repentant spirit, but also that also that there aren't significant conflicts that you have with other members of the body before you before you before you take it.

SPEAKER_08 34:22

So that one that one they spell out. You know, go re go reconcile with your brother or sister that you have that is you know that that seems to be like, hey, it's congruous. If you are confessing sin, then of course but it it makes sense that you're saying, like, I need Jesus. Um and you should be able to also and Jesus is offering you forgiveness, you should also offer forgiveness or retr uh you know, I ask for forgiveness from someone else. So that makes sense, but I've also heard this used as a way to almost to like guilt trip Christians. Like you need to work yourself up um almost emotionally to be able to like like hey, have you have you really dug down that in there and done you know this you know deep, deep moral inventory, which I think is a good thing, but almost like you gotta feel bad enough before you can take communion.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Part of it is also I think because uh and there's a and there's a history behind this, like the uh when when folks would only take the supper once a quarter and stuff. Like this like this is the other thing even about even about confession. Like the less often you do it I mean I think I think I think the less I I think I think the l so like if if if you are only in the habit of confession of sin like once a quarter or whatever, like you won't you do not remember all the ways that you have sinned over the course of the past three months. So like but but but like that's also a really easy way I think to get to get to get overwhelmed. And it's why I mean it it's one of the reasons I mean Calvin Calvin wanted the folks in Geneva to take the supper every week. And and Geneva would only basically the the the mat the magistrates would only would only let them do it once a quarter. And that was a that was a compromise that he had to that he had to make. But he's like, no, no, no, like we're supposed to be doing this often. Like we need like we need it. Um and and and part of it is also because like we also need to be in regular habits of confession and like of confession and repentance.

SPEAKER_08 36:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Um and and one of the things that the meal also does is it is it reminds us to con to also constantly be in that, to constantly be in that mode.

SPEAKER_08 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Um because it's not about it, because it because it's also not about uh I mean contrition is important. That is, that is you, you, you, um your kind of sorrow over your own over your own sin. But that's not but that's also not the whole, that's not the whole of of repentance. Um it's an important part, but it's not the whole of it.

SPEAKER_08 37:04

Yeah. And then the the so examining yourself, it's not meant to beat yourself up spiritually, but it's it's asking you to um going into that second line, you know, that second part of that, to come to this meal with some reverence of what this is. And so I think maybe that goes in line with uh the line of um discerning the body and blood of Christ or the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Yeah. I mean, because it's it's it's like it's recognize how serious, like kind of recognize how serious your relationship with God is, but also recognize how serious the Lord holds your relationship with your brothers and sisters in Christ, too. Um and and yeah, I can yeah, because I mean like I mean it's like the fact that the fact that this is the kind of thing where people can get sick and die from doing it wrong. Like there's there's something, there's something on like there's something going on here. So this is so this is

Why The Supper Is Not Symbol Only

SPEAKER_02 38:02

the other thing.

SPEAKER_08 38:02

This is why I Yeah, so if you do community wrong, one of the reasons why I question, how is that?

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Well, it's one of the it's this is one of the reasons why I uh why I don't have a uh a what I would call a a merely symbolic understanding of the Eucharist, such such such that when you take the when you take the bread and the wine, like it's just it's just a kind of remembering exercise. Um, like something's going on there because you don't you don't die from remembering something wrong. Like this is like that's intense. It is intense because something is going on, and this and this is something that the church has affirmed from the like from soon after Christ's death, from when the when the church starts doing the Eucharist. Something is going on here that we don't understand. There is a there is a mystery in the fact that this bread, that this bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ. Um, that it actually does, like it actually does spiritually nourish us. Something is good like like and and um oh man, I think it's Ignatius, I think it's Ignatius, who's one of the disciples of John the apostle. And and and and and and he he he is already encountering people who treat the Eucharist as though it is not actually the body and blood of Christ, and he and he and he and he speaks against them. But that's like from even that period, it's it's more or less um it's agreed on by the whole church that when that when you celebrate the Eucharist, like Christ is there. The body, the body and blood of Christ are there. Like you, and and this is and this is and this is one of the reasons why one of the uh accusations that early Christians faced was that they gathered for cannibalism because they kept using the language of like we're gathering to eat the body and blood of Christ. And like, and and people who didn't who had no idea what was going on is like that sounds pretty cannibalistic. Uh similarly, they'd also have what are called uh agape feasts or love feasts. And people who had no idea what that was, they're like, I don't know, that sounds a little that sound, that sounds a little sketchy, sounds a little sketchy too. Um and so uh, but but but but it's been in many ways core to Christian practice of of this affirmation that when we when we take the supper, we are we are we are eating and drink, we were eating Christ Christ's body and drinking and and drinking his blood.

John 6 And Jesus Doubling Down

SPEAKER_02 40:30

And and one of my favorite texts on this is in is in is in John 6. Okay, so in John 6, uh it's one of my favorite moments of of of of Christ's ministry, of just Jesus doubling down. Uh he he he tells the crowd that he's that he's the bread of life, that um that your ancestors ate ate manna and they died, but I'm I'm I'm the living bread. Uh, and he says uh in verse in verse 51, whoever eats of this book of this bread will live forever, and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh. And so then he's so then then we're told in 52, the Jews then then disputed amongst themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, and this is just Jesus doubling down to the to the uttermost. He says, Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and and I will raise them up on the last day, for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. And he doesn't stop. He says, Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood. And and and the language, and the language here, even the language of eat, it shifts from eat to chew. So it's like those who chew my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them. Just as the living father sent me and I live because of the father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread, this is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which the ancestors ate and they died, but the one who eats this bread will live, will, will live forever. And then and then in this aside in 59, he says he said these things while he was teaching in a synagogue at Capernaum. And so, and so some so some people hear some some people hear it and they and they leave and they and they turn back. That's what that's what we're told in in in verses 60 to 60 uh to 66, especially 66. Some people leave because they're like, I don't know, this is that's pretty weird. Uh and Jesus is like, yeah, like I'm not like I'm not retracting any of it. Like it's all it's all true. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 42:26

So if you're at our church and Malcolm came up and said, Hey y'all, here's some wine. Uh, this is my blood. You're going, hmm. Uh y'all go go for it. I would not drink that cup. I would not drink that cup. Uh, but this is what Jesus says. That's what he says. So this first Corinthians 11, we already read it. It's Jesus says, This is my body, and then later says, This cup is a new covenant in my blood. Right? So, what does he mean?

Catholic, Memorial, And Reformed Views

SPEAKER_08 42:52

And this is the the two one of the two big questions we've dancing around here. This is my body. So the uh historic kind of like three um major views here, right? Malcolm, the you the the Roman Catholic view that it is literally Christ's body. When he says, This is my body, there's no dancing around it. He's he's being serious, and that's what he means.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Well, and uh you can get into the specifics of transubstantiation, which shows up in the 12th century, I believe. Um, what it is, is it is a it is a specific metaphysical explanation of what it means for the bread and wine to be Christ's body and blood. So um, so that so one thing that a number of these traditions will share is the understanding that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ. For Catholics, there's a there's a very specific explanation of what that means. And that's what we're talking about when we talk about transubstantiation. Yeah with the with the revival of Aristotle, particularly during the medieval period, um, a number of folks, especially, I mean Aquinas and uh and and others, there's In using Aristotle's language of substance and accidents, they're like they find that language metaphysically and they're like, this is a really helpful to them. This is a really helpful under way to understand what's going on when the Eucharist is consecrated. So what was substantively bread and wine, when that, when that blessing, when that blessing is offered, that bread and wine is no longer substantively bread and wine. The substance of Christ's body and blood is now there. And so while it appears to be bread and wine, those are its accidents. The thing like so so so the difference between substance that is what stands under, that is what this thing actually is, and then accidents are the things that are the things that attach to it. So for example, if we were to think about um you as a human being, like there's a there is a there is a human substance that is who that is who you are, but there are also things that are act that are accidental about you. So your eye color, your hair color, all like like all those things are things are things about things, things about you. But they're not who you they're not who you are. Similarly, here, while these things still appear to be bread and wine, what they actually are, yeah, are the body and blood of Christ. So that that that that language, um uh that's that's their particular understanding of what's going on at the moment.

SPEAKER_08 45:28

So that's that's Rome, that's Roman Catholic.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 45:30

Um, which to just not to say here's why we disagree with everything. Yeah. Like here's why we would disagree with this, that it's transubstantiation, that it is literally Christ's body and blood. Um, I see on one level there is a seriousness. This is my my body. They're taking it very seriously. Um but if Jesus is, where is he at? Is he at the right hand of the Father now? Or is he in your hands um taking the Lord's Supper? And that's where I think it it does we would distinguish ourselves from that. Um, as well as you could look at the Hebrews uh passage of uh crucifying the Son of God all over again. Does that mean he's being crucified over and over and over? Like, no, he's he's got his his glorified body now, right? So that that's that's that's Roman Catholic transubstantiation. Do you have anything else to say what you would disagree or differ from?

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Uh no, I mean I think I think Catholics would would also affirm that he's at the right hand of the Father. I think they would just say that he's also miraculously also present in this in the supper, even even uh even physically, to which the you know, to which the response could be, it's like, well, you know, if if it's if his body is truly a human body, well then it can't be in two places at the same time, to which the response would be, well, he he was resurrected. His body is different from our normal human bodies in ways that uh you know in ways that we uh um in ways that we can only only kind of imagine. There are ways to go. There are ways to do this back and forth that I can even do here. But um, but yeah, but that's so that that's Rome.

SPEAKER_08 47:10

Um the um swinging the pendulum uh on the other side would be uh the Anabaptists um who uh said, Hey, that is too literal when he says this, my body, it's it's it's uh um a totem. It's a rem it's a m memorial of what uh Jesus did. So every time we take the Lord's Supper, we are it's a a a sign to remind us. Um and I think there's you know a lot to to like about that um because it is reminding you. You're saying, like, yeah, this is this kind of looks like this wine kind of looks like blood, and this you know, this bread doesn't really look like body, but like, you know, it makes you think of it. Um and so you're like, okay, on one level, yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

And to affirm and and to add something here historically, both of these views show up in a debate in the ninth century between Catholic monks, Rad Bertus and Rotramnus. Um Red Radvertus argues argues that basically the bread and wine are fundamentally transformed into like the physical flesh and blood of Christ. And then Rotramnus actually argues that no, actually, Christ's presence is a like it's a it's a spiritual presence because Christ's physical body is at the is at the right hand of the Father. So these are so like so those like like those ideas show up even as even as early as the uh as the ninth century. And it's interesting that when they have that debate there, there isn't like a mutual excommunication or anything like that. There's this there's this affirmation. Um there there is, I think, uh a kind of subtle affirmation that like both of us both of us are holding this holding holding the Eucharist in really high in really high in really high regard. It's just that you know, like I said, we have these we have these different arguments about about the about the mode.

SPEAKER_05 49:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Um but yeah, but that's but that's interesting. But that Rotremnus's idea pops up again in a in a polemical sense through the Baptists and Anabaptists.

SPEAKER_08 49:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Yeah, but anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_08 49:12

And so then if you have those two polar ends of the spectrum, um, and there are some um other views in between, but the one I would say that's almost in the middle of these two is saying it is yes, it is Christ's body and blood, and it is a uh memorial, like that you are you you are remembering. So it's both a sign and a seal of seal, and then like the the the like a signet ring um putting uh God's presence there, and so it is saying yes to both, and that's where the reformers um camped out, and you know, you're Calvin. And that there's some distinctions between the you know, Calvin Knox and you know uh Luther and uh other folks there.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Ones that they fought very, very hard on.

SPEAKER_08 49:55

Yeah, people fought wars over.

SPEAKER_02 49:57

I mean Calvin and Luther, I mean, they they went they went in. I mean, there's a there's a uh a debate where uh where Luther in talking about the suburb, it's the the the famous line is where he like yells and bangs his hand on the table and says is means is means is. Um as in when Jesus says like this is my body, is this is means is like that's what it is. It doesn't mean this represents my body. No, it just is means is.

SPEAKER_08 50:23

Um and so I almost like want that to be our like debates now. Like I feel like our debates are so terrible. Well, people killed each other over that. I mean, people people killed each other over that. I just want like arguments over something that's a little more substantive than like you know, should pastors be on TikTok. It feels like a little bit deeper level discussion happening then. But so yeah, so they would and this is where this is where I find myself uh saying that yes, it so when I when I uh lead uh the Lord's Supper, I will say that it's this mystical union that it is, yes, this is Christ's body. So is means is. I don't believe it's physically, but I do think Christ's presence is spiritually there, that he is that that Christ is spiritually present there, and there's a gravity that when we come to it that we were reminded of that we take it. Um I think the um the other thing about it that it's a sign. It's it is it is remembering though. Um and so like if I'm curious how you might answer this of like, how have you seen communion done badly? Um and one church I went to, oh no, um, one church I went to, um, they in the I think I don't know if it was quarterly or if they just did it weekly, but they said uh we had the service and they're like, and communion's in the back on your way out. It was like on your way out, you grab communion like grabbing a donut. It was to me so much anti-the heart of communion. So going back to First Corinthians self-serve Eucharist is self-serve Eucharist when the idea around 1 Corinthians 11, he's he's critiquing them for the ways that they are um not valuing one another in this, and now we've said, well, we don't really care about one another enough, we're just gonna do it individually, and it's this is where I think when we when when COVID hit and people were having uh services at home, and if you're listening here and you had communion at home, I am not uh throwing shade upon you, but I I might be I I believe that communion happens in community, yes, that it is in a church environment, and this is why he's speaking to these churches that when you come together, as often as you come together, and so I think that needs to be there.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Also, yeah, to slightly undermine, I think, what is the way that I think a lot of us Protestants think, particularly because of the Protestant Reformation, the single most important thing that you do when you gather is the Lord's Supper. Yeah. Full stop. We are we are in a it we've gotten to the point where we think that the most important thing that we gather together to do is to hear a sermon. And so it's why we gather to listen to somebody for 45 to 50 minutes when there are when there are few people who can hold people's attention for 45, 50 minutes. But that's its own, that's its own issue. Um it's one of the reasons I I've probably said this on the podcast, but it's one of the reasons why why I actively decided to preach shorter sermons. I love preaching, love it so, so, so, so, so, so, so much. Um but I don't come to I don't come to church to preach. I come to church to eat. And and that and and and and and I want I want that to be true. I so so when I so so when so even when I think about the way that we do our liturgy or church service, I I it's very easy for the preacher to center themselves by even taking up most of the service themselves. Um and and and the way that the way that mosaic is physically set up, the table is in the center, and and all of the pews face the table. And and as true as that is architecturally, I want that to also be true of the way that we actually live as a church. And that's the way that the church operated essentially for the first 1500 years of the church, too. Um that the most important thing that you do together is uh get to participate in this miracle and mystery that is the opportunity to eat of the body and blood of Christ.

SPEAKER_08 54:43

I'd be curious how the house churches uh set up their uh community. Was it uh you know, put on the coffee table in the center, uh which I guess would also still structurally be facing it.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

Uh yeah, I mean I have to go to those like catac the cat like catacomb churches that um in Rome and in other places. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 55:01

Um so uh there's the three big so what is it Malcolm has made it very clear he is anti-Rome.

SPEAKER_02 55:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 55:14

He is he is so aggressive.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

He's so But I do not agree with I do not agree with Rome in Rome's uh in Rome's account of though it's up or now.

SPEAKER_08 55:23

Um and so what it is now this next question, and we have five minutes

Who Can Receive The Table

SPEAKER_08 55:28

to answer it. Great. Who's it for?

SPEAKER_04 55:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 55:30

Oh my goodness. Malcolm, we spent a better part of a couple months as uh elders hashing this out.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 55:38

And we landed with it's a complicated question.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

I mean, my simple answer is that I think it's for the it's for the new it's for the new covenant community, which which means it's for uh believers and their children.

SPEAKER_08 55:55

So in light of that personally, in light of that, if you have a child, uh what if the child has not yet professed faith, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_02 56:07

I as long as I'll put all put all my business out there.

SPEAKER_08 56:11

Um there's debate amongst our leadership, so we are not making any declared.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

What I what I express is solely the opinion of Malcolm and not the opinion of Mosaic Church. Uh but in this sense, I I like I I I agree with uh with with with the Orthodox, which is that like even if you're even if you're a baby, like if you you can take you can take the if you're if you're baptized, you can take the you can take the supper.

SPEAKER_08 56:41

Um and and the Lord uh babies babies are drinking wine.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

Babies are, yeah. They're taking so they they do it with like a little the practice is you do it with a spoon and there's uh some of the bread and the wine are on this spoon and you take it.

SPEAKER_08 56:56

Some of this this conversation came up was because we were asking the question around what if someone um in our church special needs and they may not be able to um um verbally say some of the things that we might ask them to to communicate in saying, you know, when we have our communicants class, would and if they are not able to um articulate some of those things and we're not you know not not able to discern on our end like where they're at, what if that is just true for them? And are would they are we depriving someone of the opportunity of taking communion? Um and so that's where kind of some of it it initiated. Um so we started going down this path of asking this question of like, okay, well, what does that mean for you know pay-do communion, ch communion for children? Um and we were looking at you know, the you know, there's different views throughout church history. Um you know, the Eastern Orthodox, the Coptic, Ethiopian Church, some Anglican churches do offer communion for uh children, um, others don't, right? Uh I think Augustine argued for infant communion. Um but the part where it's it it does get f hazy for me. So um, you know, Malcolm's planted his flag, uh, me as my uh uh Enneagram nine uh going I can see both sides. I am going, I I this to me, first Corinthians, to me, the understanding of First Corinthians is all about people um uh robbing one another of their opportunity to eat their food. Um so if you're having that small group illustration and you have the three families that didn't get to eat, like this is wrong. So this is why it ends in 1 Corinthians 11 when he says, you know, so then brothers and sisters, when you got it eat, you should all eat together. It's all about you know, let's make sure everyone can eat this. And so that to me is like that's what this is discussing. And so when it says these things of like discerning the body and the blood, like I think there's a good I think it's good to say, let's come to it reverently. Because I think if you come at it flippantly and sometimes like, you know, like, hey, get your you know, your communion on the way out the door, your individual communion, I'm like, no. And yet, if you're a a child who's three years old who may not be able to communicate these things, how can they say that they are discerning the body and the blood? How can they say they are examining themselves in this way?

SPEAKER_02 59:15

And your reasons are why, particularly the Western Church, especially starting in the Fourth Lateran Council in the in the 13th century, it's why uh Catholics largely made up this this category of like the age of the age of reason. The age of accountability and all like all that stuff like that. It's it's it was specifically constructed. Um and in in the in the fourth Lateran Council, it's the uh the language is the is the age of uh of discernment. But part of but part of it was like it they did this in order to prevent uh basically to prevent people taking the sacrament irreverently and and uh and so that people would understand what's going on. But part of it was also like part of it is also though, and this is this is an issue that I think a lot of us have, is that like we think we have to understand stuff before we do it.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:08

Okay, so I'm with you. Now I've set you up. You fell right into my trap. And this is go ahead. So now I feel like if you're gonna go down your path, Malcolm, you're now arguing for open communion. No, I'm not. Because if you don't have to actually have to thought through it that way. You have to be baptized. Well, does that say that here?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:27

And that's where I'm like Yes, because for you to be a member of the New Covenant community, you have to be baptized.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:34

But was everyone in this house church baptized?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:37

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

If you're in the we what are you talking about? Were you we what are you talking about? Are they are they are they members of the community? If they've become members of the community, they've they've been baptized.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:48

So this is where I think it it's it's open, is the question of waste. Was everyone in Corinthian in the Corinthian church here that he's writing to, is he talking about is it visitors are welcome to take it as well or no?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

No, like the well here's the here's the thing. Like in I I mean, in the in the historic practice of the church.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:05

Because you know, Judas took communion with Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:08

Sure. Yeah, that's that's fine. I don't I don't have any problem.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:11

So can unbelievers take it?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

No. Like the because because because because here's the thing. This is not we uh we're talking about a we're talking about a practice of the a practice of the church, not a not a kind of disembodied statement of Paul. So this is so this is so this is the other thing to keep in mind is that the data that we have is not only is not is not is not only the specific texts of the New Testament, but we also have but we also have the consistent practice of the early church. And the consistent practice of the early church liturgically is like the way that the church served the way the way that the church service would operate liturgically is you have a period of the service that's actually for everyone, and then you kick people out to do the to do the supper. And so this is this is another one of the reasons for the accusations of cannibalism and orgies specifically with the with the or with the love.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:07

That was gonna be the broadcast title.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:09

It's because it's because those people could not be present for it. And so their imaginations went wild as to, well, they're talking about eating the butt like all because they didn't know what was going on, because they couldn't, because they were actively because because they were actively kept from that, kept from that from that liturgy. So that so that's an important that's an important historical point that we have not only the guidance from Paul, but we also have, but we also have the more or less consistent practice of the early of the early church, too. So that's some stuff there.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:42

That's good. I mean I I guess we share with you uh podcast listeners our our leadership had had wrestled began wrestling with this back in February and continued for months to wrestle through it. And we I think we we ended with we are not clear on this. And if it's not clear it's wise for us to not make a change of uh decisions on our practice. Um and so it's but it's I'm I'm of the opinion that there is you you don't need the truth, doesn't need protecting. So let's ask hard questions about the text. Let's ask, should it be open to all?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:21

Um by which, and here's the thing, there's also a distinction when we talk about kind of open, open and closed communion. I think people can use those in two different ways. I think the most common way of articulating open and closed communion is open means all baptized, anybody who's baptized can take it. Closed means only members of this particular tradition can take it. So for example, there are Baptists that practice closed communion, meaning you've got to be a member of this church to take communion with us. Similarly, for the for the Orthodox and for Catholics, they practice what is what's called closed communion. Like if you're if you're you're like in an Orthodox church, you have to be Orthodox in order to take the Lord's Supper. To be in in in a Catholic Mass, you're like, you have to be Catholic in order to take uh in order to take the supper. It is only very recently that there's been an understanding of open, quote unquote, open communion, which actually means that anybody can take it. For most of even the debates about kind of open and closed, it's it's whether if you're baptized, you can take it, or you have to be a member of this particular tradition for you to be able to take it, which is what which is what the understanding of closed would be.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:34

So you're saying for the majority of history it was closed?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:38

Yeah, as in like you, as in, yeah, as in like you would you would have to be you've gotta be a member of because because because we also Because the other thing is like up until up until the schism in in the in the in the The Schism. Yeah, the great, the great, the great schism.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:54

Um Between Malcolm and Slim in the 11th century.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

Um you you you you have you have a uh I mean you have a church that is more or less united. People can argue people can argue about you know divisions in the church before the before the 11th century, but but in the minds of in the minds of many, you're dealing with a united church. And so there so there isn't there isn't a whole bunch of debate about like who can take it. If you're a part of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, you take supper. Yeah. But when you when you have that mutual, when you have that like that mutual um uh uh excommunication between the between the Orthodox and the Catholics.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:34

A divorce.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:34

Uh essentially.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

Like then you start having conversation. Like if if someone's if if someone's like if someone's Roman Catholic, can they take can they take the supper with us? No. If they if someone's it's like that, like that, that's that's what ex when you think of excommunic like the language of excommunication, it's you being kicked out of communion, specifically the like the supper. Like that's what, like that's what that language that's what that language says in those traditions, but I'm thinking

SPEAKER_08 1:06:00

Maybe this is to the point of like I'm thinking like Protestant um thinking um reformed traditions. I've I've only seen it in um as you just mentioned Eastern Orthodox, but also um in some certain Baptist um traditions where like, well if you know if you've not been baptized in our church, then you can't take it.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:16

And I'm going, wait. And I I've heard we've had people come, they're like, I was gonna stay there, but I don't believe in rebaptism, which we don't believe in either. Right. Um so then I'm like, wait, if you're saying the majority of church tradition, majority of church tradition also believed in re-baptism?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

No, absolutely not. Oh because because the because there's only one, there's there's only one, there's only one, there's only one baptism. And this is I mean, this is part of the part of the creed that there's there's one one baptism for the ver for the for the remission of sins. Um it's just that this is not uh is not a debate. Like that, like there's not a debate between open and closed communion for much of the for much of Christian history. There's just like if you're if you're baptized, you take the if and if you're baptized in the church, because once again, the understanding of what it means to be in the church is what it is.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:04

Universal or in our church?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

The church. Because the because the because the because the understanding, because the understanding for them is at least for the Orthodox, it's like their church is the church. Similarly, Roman Catholics would say their church is the church.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:17

Yeah. Um so we've made this abundantly clear.

Discipline, Mystery, And Closing Charge

SPEAKER_08 1:07:24

Uh who can take communion, Malcolm? Everyone. It's for sinners and saints. It is baptized.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:41

It's for the members. I mean, for me, it's if you've struggled with sin.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:45

If you struggle with sin, uh if you're unrepentant.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

No.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:51

Once again, like I'm trying to think of like categories of people.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:54

Uh here's the thing, like, there are Christians who struggle, like every Christian struggles with sin. It's part of being a part of being a Christian.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

Is to be is to be engaged, is to be engaged in that, yeah, in that in that struggle. But one of the but it's but it's also clear when we think about issues of issues of church discipline that if you are if you are unrepentant, that's one of the reasons that you would be bar that you could be barred, you could be barred from the from the table.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:22

Yeah. So yeah. So there's a lot here.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

Like this is this is it's it's literally one of the most important elements of the elements of the Christian faith. So it's why people fought and kind of fought so hard about it, because it really is, it really does lie at the center of Christian practice. And it's, you know, I mean, it's one of these really beautiful ways that the Lord uh nourishes his people. And so it's been it it it has been kind of guarded and fought over for a really long time because it's really like it's really, really, really, really important.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:56

Um, it I think it it and for me over the course of the last few years, like it's only gotten more important. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:02

No, I think it's become um clear how mysterious this is. And I think as you d dive into this to say, hey, what is this and who is it for? Like it continues to like um it's gonna only getting more mysterious to me. Um and so the uh you know, trying to imagine what does it mean that that this is my body, this is my blood, and leaning into that and going, the mystery, and I'm okay with mystery. If you want it to be, you know, very squared away and you know have all the right answers. I don't think you're gonna get too far in Christianity because there's the incarnation, there's the trinity, there's things that we just go like, I don't fully understand, and we can just sing, I can only imagine. Alright, y'all. Hey! I hope you're as happy as I am that Malcolm is back here, so I have someone to uh you know, crack, crack wise cracks.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:58

Love it.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:59

You know? Um and uh answer all of your hard questions and to you know rein me in when I'm uh on my heretical uh try.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:09

But it's it's hard.

SPEAKER_08 1:10:11

It's hard. Uh if you found any of this helpful, as always, please like, rate, review, um, share with a friend, tell people Malcolm's back, hashtag Malcolm's back twenty six. Um, and we will uh see you all in two weeks. Bye y'all, we'll see.