Welcome And Host Catch-Up

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Hey, hey there, world. Oh, hey. Welcome to another episode of Theology in Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered to pieces, and we are your host, Slim and Malcolm. Today we get to talk to uh one of Malcolm's friends and uh what has become one of my friends through book. Um do people feel that way about you when they read your book? They're like, oh that's like he's my friend.

SPEAKER_09 0:48

Yeah, people think they know me. So it's called parasocial relationships.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

What an intro. Today we're gonna talk about my parasocial relationship friend, Alexis Bussetti.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Alexis Bussetti. And we're gonna talk about the topic of immigration. Uh something that uh kind of a hot topic these days. You know, people seem to care about. It is a that is a thing. I don't know why people care about this. I I care about a lot, actually. Um it's a it's it's an important, it's an important thing. Uh can we start over? No.

SPEAKER_08 1:23

Um Malcolm, what's going on with you these days? I'm I'm doing I'm doing well, man. I'm uh You back in the swing of it? What am I doing?

SPEAKER_03 1:30

You had you're off from sabbatical.

SPEAKER_09 1:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

You're full in the swing.

SPEAKER_09 1:35

Yeah, man. Back in the back in the swing, trying to get back into um into writing this book.

SPEAKER_08 1:41

Um you have a book? Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_09 1:44

You know I've been talking about book two. I gotta I gotta finish it. I gotta finish at least first draft by I gotta finish at least the first draft by feb by beginning of February.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

So yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think you've given uh people a a little bit of a a teaser. What what direction is this book going in?

SPEAKER_09 2:01

Yeah, this is uh this is my book on uh Theosis. So my book on the fact that uh Son of God became man, so that you might become God.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Um same idea as what Mormons have, right? That we get our own planets.

SPEAKER_09 2:13

Oh, it's actually better than that. So uh you don't get your own planet, you get to co co-rule the new heavens and new earth alongside Christ.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Um almost as if we got our own planet.

SPEAKER_09 2:26

You get your own universe, but it's not your universe, it's all of our universes. Yes. We all share it together because ultimately the vision of the end is a shared monarchy. But we'll get there. Okay. It's another we'll get there later.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

So you're in uh what mode is this? Like, do you have like categories or like this is research phase? Is this writing phase?

SPEAKER_09 2:47

I mean, uh the way I write, I'm generally doing all of them at the same time. So I all so you know, all the sources that I use for this book, I want to like exclusively use sources from the fourth to the 15th century. Um, and and those are all things that I'm reading for fun anyway. So technically my reading for fun is also research.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

Right.

SPEAKER_09 3:07

But uh, but I as I do that, I'm also writing at the same time. So it's all happening together. I should it probably would be more streamlined if I like planned it out, but just you know. This is this is how the anti-greed any if you if any of you were wondering the process for the anti-greed gospel, it was a similar process for that, and then it just all comes together. It's all ready in my head, it just needs to come out and be put in a format that people can then follow.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

So I apologize for my timing, but the anti-greed gospel uh for sale wherever you get your books.

SPEAKER_09 3:41

Yes, there you go. Continue to get it, continue to continue to do that.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Always be selling.

SPEAKER_09 3:46

Yes, always.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

I uh my son did an internship with the city of Waco this summer uh Chamber of Commerce, and they had to do an entrepreneur thing, and uh they created their own clothing company. Uh they sold stuff at the uh farmers market all of two weeks. Um I think they're being sold somewhere else now.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

Um but he doesn't even know where they're being sold, which is the point. And I'm I came to like Knox, you gotta always be selling.

SPEAKER_09 4:13

Always be always be closing. Always be A B C. This is what Caleb Campbell Caleb Campbell reminds me of every time we hang out.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

So I did you know what that's from?

SPEAKER_09 4:22

Yeah. Uh um Glengarry Glen Ross? Yes, yes, Glengarry Glenross.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

I had to watch that my year I got out of college and I started working at Dell Computers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:31

And they said back when you were a hotshot salesman.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

I wasn't, and then they said, You're gonna get fired. You need to start watching these movies. Became a hotshot salesman. I became a hotshot salesman. Uh and oh yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:44

Which he then pulls back into which he then pulls into the pulpit. Expert, expert marketer slim, slim Thompson.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Stop it. I feel like I'm on the we're switching roles here. I say absurd things that you have to respond to. Now you're saying absurd things that I have to respond to.

SPEAKER_09 4:59

Love you.

SpaceX Debris Hits The Moon

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Uh speaking of uh absurd things, look at that transition. Look at that. Just here that as of an hour ago, a discarded SpaceX uh Falcon 9 upper stage, which you may not know what that is, okay. But the uh part of the top of a rocket, yeah, yeah, rocket um just crashed on to the moon. Oh. All right. And they knew it was gonna happen. Well, they've known it's gonna happen for a while now.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

But it wasn't it was not intended to happen. But usually though that the top half goes down to the earth and atmosphere and burns up and they they get uh you know the rest of the rest of it.

SPEAKER_09 5:43

But we accidentally hit the moon is what you're telling, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Oh, what is it? It's like 65 uh uh like oh it's it's so much weight and it's hitting the the moon with such force that like they're watching all this like how how much destruction it's gonna do to the moon. Oh gosh. Um goodness gracious. Yeah, it's uh Wow, where's the information? That's right here. Um from the MPR, defunct part of SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket will slam into the moon um 4,000 kilograms, um measuring a five-story building is gonna crash into the moon near side the Einstein crater, um, traveling at 5,400 miles per hour. Uh I don't think it's gonna do anything. Um like knock it off its path. But if there's like a small chance that it does these things, like this just goes into the stuff that you're like, is this unintended consequences or is this just capitalism run amok?

SPEAKER_08 6:47

I mean Wow. They said four thousand kilograms, because that's like it's like four tons.

SPEAKER_06 6:54

I think it's four tons. Yeah. A little over four tons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 6:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:59

That's a lot. That's not uh it's not a small, not a small rocket, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 7:04

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

They said it's been uh unguided, uh roughly 19 months drifting solar activity before it's being pulled into the moon's orbit.

SPEAKER_09 7:13

Oh. So it's been it's been going for a while. Yeah, and you're just gonna slam into the moon. Good gracious.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

All that stuff fascinates me. Yeah. Yeah. So my question there to you, why do you think we as humans are so fascinated by this space exploration movement right now?

SPEAKER_09 7:36

I think back when we had the space race with with Russia and stuff, it was a matter of like global domination. And it's like uh do we want to establish ourselves as as a as a world power. I think the folks that are doing it now, whether it's Elon or uh the um oh who else? Oh gosh. NASA? Bezos. Bezos, too. Oh, like I I think I think I think rich people are just bored. And I think they and I think they think that space is the next. I mean, like, I think for Elon anyway, I mean I think it's a plan to like to colonize other other planets because we're gonna because basically we're gonna we're gonna the the idea is that we're gonna run out run out of resources here, and so they're like, let's we've won't we we've already we've already essentially mined Earth for all it's got. Let's let's mine the rest of the universe because the universe is meant to be mined.

SPEAKER_03 8:28

Um do you do you buy that people are going to actually live on Mars? No. No. Well hi Malcolm.

SPEAKER_09 8:35

No. Well, first of all, the atmosphere seems perfect to me. Okay, so I so look, so I I I remember this was it was an Instagram video or something where they were they where they were like, Elon's plan is uh is like what what brings all of his businesses together is the fact that this is the infrastructure necessary to colonize Mars. So you put robots there first, self-driving, self- uh self-driving vehicles and all that kind of stuff, and there's all this labor that you can have them do to prepare, yeah to prepare the space for us. Um but like all of the all of this all of this technological development is is actually part of that bigger, that bigger plan.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Have you seen that robot where it like it looks like a giant uh uh like evil boar or uh uh goat head?

SPEAKER_09 9:28

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Oh, it's it's like that's from Oh no. That's from the horror movies that we watched together. Oh no.

SPEAKER_09 9:35

It's so what do you say giant evil goathead? I'm like, that's where I don't I'm immediately suspicious. Oh, it's creepy.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

It's creepy looking. Oh, immediately suspicious.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

Is there something spiritually significant about that desire to to explore and to to go to Mars? Do you think it like that like what would be a good thing about that? Because I I personally am fascinated by Interstellar. Uh oh yeah. I mean the movie, anytime it's on, I'm ready to watch it. Yeah, yeah. I'm ready to explore space. I'm ready to like, oh, that's cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 10:05

Um I mean think of how I how I want to think about that impulse.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Um I know there's the I I could tell you, I as you already said, some of the the negative side of this. Sure, it seems like elements of wanting to dominate even space. Yeah, you know, just to suck all the resources out of Earth, let's now let's do it out of space. Um also I think there's like you've talked about boredom, and there's also the um the fear that's driving that these decisions.

SPEAKER_09 10:37

Yeah, I mean, if it were truly if it was truly for the purpose of like of exploration, like especially now that we have I mean, as technology develops, we have more opportunities to explore kind of in spaces that we've never been able to explore before, and we and we can and we can do that to learn and stuff like that. But the fact of the but also the fact of the matter is is that um people generally don't pour millions and billions of dollars into something just to learn. There's there's generally an applied like I mean even like what's the angle. Even in even in thinking about, for example, the way that and this is kind of a kind of a segue, but like in thinking about the kind the money that the government pours into higher education, for example, a lot of it is like defense funding.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 11:26

Because that's where like when you think of applied, when you think of wide ranges of of applied research, the like the money is in the military.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

And you'd think with all that money that we spend we would have enough rockets, but we've used them all. Um shooting down drones. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 11:43

Uh-huh. And just random wars that we just decided to just kind of jump right into.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Apparently our munitions are really low, which is just wild.

SPEAKER_09 11:50

I love that for us. How much we spend.

SPEAKER_04 11:52

Spend so much more.

SPEAKER_09 11:54

So much money, bro. So much money.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Goodness.

SPEAKER_09 11:57

Uh oh boy.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Yeah, so nothing, nothing uh spiritually good about this.

SPEAKER_09 12:01

Yeah, I mean, there could be. I mean, insofar as it is a wonder at the Lord's creation and his opportunity to learn more about it and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Oh, that's all that's really cool. And like And meet the other creatures that he's created in. Maybe. Maybe.

SPEAKER_09 12:15

Who knows? I mean, we could we could we could talk about the theological and practical implications of the existence of aliens, but that would be that might be another episode is Earth's Savior in the book. See, the Earth is where like we could do this. You just let's do let's do a little speculative theology on this podcast, too. Y'all, y'all are gonna get y'all are just getting everything.

SPEAKER_04 12:37

This is this is we'll save that one for another.

SPEAKER_09 12:38

That seems like we'll do a full episode on aliens.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Aliens we could have timed that perfectly.

SPEAKER_09 12:46

We could. That was great.

Spider-Man Spoilers And Azazel

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Uh you've seen a movie recently that uh uh are are we ready to to talk about?

SPEAKER_09 12:54

Can we talk about it now? It's it's little I mean it literally just came out the last weekend. Oh my gosh, the movie is so good. I love Spider-Man so much. He is the greatest superhero. Oh, I've loved him.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

I grew up loving Wolverine.

SPEAKER_09 13:08

Oh, okay. And then I think in my.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

But then I grew up and then I was like, oh, I'm more interested in Batman.

SPEAKER_09 13:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Spider-Man's starting to starting to take that spot. I don't know. Spider-Man has always been.

SPEAKER_09 13:52

Spider-Man has always been my absolute favorite. I have said it on this podcast, but I am sure that in the new heavens and new earth, I will have Spider-Man powers. It was it was my with your with your own earth. It is still on this, it'll be the new heavens and new earth that we all share. But anyway, but it will also include me having Spider-Man's powers. My favorite dream of my entire life was a dream that I had in third grade when I found out at Resource, at at recess, I'm pretty sure, that I had Spider-Man's powers. And that is still my favorite dream of all time. I think I remember a number of dreams after that where I tested in the dream whether or not I had Spider-Man's powers because it's still important to me.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

And yeah, C D.

SPEAKER_09 14:35

I love Spider-Man so much.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Okay. Um, so I'm gonna say spoilers. Uh, and so fast forward roughly five minutes. We'll say we can timestamp it later.

SPEAKER_09 14:46

We'll say, we'll say end spoilers when the spoilers are over.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Uh, but spoilers gonna talk about it right now. Yeah. If you've not seen it, pause, fast forward.

SPEAKER_09 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

All right, we gave you the warning.

SPEAKER_09 14:57

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

It's so good. Oh, it's so good. It it brings in Gene Gray, so bringing my X-Men into this. Yeah, I'm super excited.

SPEAKER_09 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

And as you and I texted, the whole series of events with introducing Gene Gray, I'm like, I'm watching the movie Fallen. Fallen.

SPEAKER_09 15:13

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

If you haven't yet seen Fallen, the Denzel Washington movie.

SPEAKER_09 15:18

It's a Denzel classic. So good.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

One of my favorite Denzel films. Yeah. And only horror movie he's done? Is that right? I guess so.

SPEAKER_09 15:25

Um and in that it's not really horror, because it's, I mean, it's like a thrill, it's like a thr. I guess it's like a thriller. I guess it's like a thing. I think he called it a horror. Yeah. That makes sense. As he said, makes sense that he would call it that.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Um, but it's the the the premise there is it's there's this uh demon uh uh Hazel. Yeah, uh Azazel. Azazel that would be hopping from one person to the next.

SPEAKER_09 15:46

So think about Az thing thing about Azazel. Um so you know, and this is this is something I meant to I meant to text you about this because this was actually a point of scriptural interpretation that I think changed it was a significant moment of scriptural interpretation for me. Azazel is uh is translated in um in Leviticus, it's uh it's translated and and this is because of the King James Bible. That's the word that's translated scapegoat. So the there's a there's a goat that's committed to the Lord for atonement, and then there's a goat that's committed to Azazel is the is the is the word. And and it's understood uh, especially in the Western church as the scapegoat, which then gets you to accounts of penal substitutionary atonement. But uh, but then but then if you read, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna do some deep cuts now. If you get if you read the apocryphal books of of of Enoch, you get you get stories of uh Azazel that then that then set, I think, in many ways, historical context to what's going on in the Day of Atonement. It's a bigger, this is a bigger conversation. You can we can get into that another time. But all that's to say, uh um Azazel is understood to be is understood to be the devil. And so um, and so where that where that comes from is not only for Minoch, but also uh but also in the Levitical accounts of the of the Day of Atonement. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah back to Fallen and Spider-Man. Uh the people who I've tuned out because of spoilers are are gonna miss that entire thing. But it's so important. It's whatever. Um movie's great. Yeah, Spider-Man's great. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Yeah, and so the way they the way uh the demon would hop would be hopping by touch to people, the way Gene Gray, which I never thought of her powers as being able to do, um be able to hop from one person to the next who's within a certain amount of feet or whatnot. Uh anyways, it just made it super, super creepy. Um the the main bad guy uh in the movie, again, spoilers, um the person who's uh trying to you know steal Gene Gray's power. If you go back in the comics, he's uh one of the the like the anti-mutant uh leaders in those comics. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:57

Yeah, because what's his name?

SPEAKER_09 17:58

I can't I I just can't remember his name right now, but yeah. Okay, yeah. I like I said, there are some elements of this that I have to revisit uh some of my comic book stuff for. The other fun thing about this movie was that there are a bunch of like freeze frames and stuff where they are replicating really famous Spider-Man comics. Yeah. Uh and they do this like like when you watch the movie, the moments when they do like little like slow-mo moments, those those are the specific moments that are recreating comic book covers. Yeah. Um it's really, it's really it's really cool.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Yeah, I like love all the thought they put into Spider-Man, but also just one of the reasons I think his character or his um him as a hero succeeds so well. One, I think Tom Holland's great. Um does it really well. Awesome. Um but there's like is dealing with deep you know deeper things, but it he keeps it light at times, yeah. It's also very hopeful and yeah.

SPEAKER_09 18:55

It's like what it's like it's good. It it it seems it seems kind of I in in my mind more more realistic in the sense of like when what would happen if like a smart teenager got these got these powers and like had to deal with the life of being a teenager and young adult and stuff while also dealing through while also dealing with this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

And I think in this movie that it made me go like, oh, they're they're showing what ADD ADD is like when he starts feeling all the different sounds. Oh, just getting over simul getting over-simulated. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 19:26

They're describing that.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

And then also they're describing like that that uh that uh transition from boyhood to manhood and like having all this rush of emotions and like having to grow into it versus just like suppressing it all.

SPEAKER_09 19:39

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of there's a lot of a lot of cool a lot of cool stuff in there.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Hey, speaking of cool stuff, here's that robot.

SPEAKER_09 19:47

Bruh.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Okay, like that what?

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Like that nightmare fuel is what that is. It is a seven-foot center, not a goat.

SPEAKER_09 19:55

That's wild. It looks like a goat, though. It's centaur inspired. Sator, Sederess is what yeah, it's a satyr. Um, that's wild.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Creepy eyes.

SPEAKER_09 20:05

That is that is creepy.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

I could try to put a link in the show. That's in that line.

SPEAKER_09 20:09

That's creepy. Um also, like, also, it's cool to see, I mean, him and Zendaya, like them, like you know, you know that like I mean, that's that's the other thing. Like, we know, like, we now know that they're married and have been and have been in love for a while. But then to see the way that that plays out in in this movie where they don't know each other, yeah, and to see like and to see that adds even another level of emotional depth to this to this movie too. I mean, I was look, yeah, I I was I was tearing up, I was tearing up at some moments, bro. Okay, speaking of oh, speaking speaking of moments, bro, bro. Oh, I now I'm I'm I'm thinking about the I'm thinking about the moment again.

SPEAKER_03 20:53

But you took bro twice and I feel like now we're on a broadcast.

SPEAKER_09 20:56

The rooftop, it's it's fine. It's fine. This is weird, we're just we're just hanging out. I'm not thinking, I'm as much as I love you, audience, I'm just thinking about slim right now. Um but but the rooftop, the rooftop, the rooftop scene, yeah. Where she acts like she recognizes him.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_09 21:12

It's ha it's like halfway through it. I'm like, no. Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Not real.

SPEAKER_09 21:17

Oh no. Oh no. Oh but I but I was like, I was like, this is this is gonna be this is so traumatic. This is so traumatic for him. Like this is terrible. This is terrible for this to be done to him right now. Because he we know that the what just the one thing that he wants is for the woman is for the woman that he loves to recognize to recognize him. And it can't happen because the spell has worked. Um and so to that that switch. It's it's deep. It's it's rough, man. It's rough. It's a great movie.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Oh I'm I'm glad. Thank y'all for uh nerding out with us for a little bit. This is one of our I'll talk about that for the whole podcast, man.

SPEAKER_09 22:00

I just remembered so much. So much.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Let me give you one thing to cleanse the palate.

SPEAKER_09 22:06

Yeah. Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

But yeah, this is

Christian Nationalism News Reactions

SPEAKER_03 22:10

about Jesus. Uh, because Jesus is in charge. Uh this comes from right-wing watch. Uh Christian nationalist pastor Jack Hibbs uh freaks out over the wave of democratic socialist candidates winning elections, and he says, Marx, Stalin, Lennon, Mal, Pol Pot, Zoran Mendoni. That's exactly how they come to power. A little step at a time. Oh dude.

SPEAKER_09 22:32

Escalated. Escalated quickly. Oh man, it's just what's it's just it's just a few steps from like state-owned grocery stores to genocide, apparently. That's enough.

SPEAKER_04 22:44

Do you feel like that was a slow, easy transition that you could that you could trace it? Or do you feel like that was a a leap in logic?

SPEAKER_09 22:53

You know, I think it's a little bit I think it's a little bit of a leap.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

You you I don't know, do you hold the mantle as a Christian socialist? I mean like, yeah. Would he maybe put you in that same category there?

SPEAKER_09 23:04

Probably.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 23:05

Probably. I mean, I like, you know, I like this. I like the stuff that I like the stuff that these democratic socialists are uh are suggesting. And then for Mam Dani, the stuff that he's like actually, actually doing. That's the other thing. Like you're we are seeing a politician who like even in his interviews, like he's just like he's just genuine.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 23:24

And like, and he's also like try trying as hard as he can to like do the stuff that he promised that he would do. Like that's just that's that's refreshing.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Yeah.

unknown 23:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 23:34

That's refreshing.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Um there was another one that I'm I thought about doing. Uh I don't know if you saw uh oh no.

SPEAKER_09 23:41

Uh oh.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

It just uh when when you invoke God's name in in in some of this, it it it kind of makes me just want to scream. Um but did you know that uh God was a key player to getting the big beautiful bill passed? Really? Yes.

SPEAKER_05 24:00

Oh, how happened after that? Um the C was parted. I mean, that was a the Big Beautiful bill we passed last year was signed ceremoniously on July 4th with Pete Tues Flat over here at the White House, you know. It was a huge landmark piece of legislation. As the president says, about 95% of the American first agenda was in one bill. And we had to do it through reconciliation because it's the only way to avoid the necessity of 60 votes in the Senate. You do it with a bare 51, and Democrats didn't want to help. And we got right up to the end of that thing, and it was impossible. There was no way to reconcile everybody and get it all together. And uh, we came in here and prayed for a breakthrough, and God delivered it. And uh, one day I'm gonna write like a two-volume set about just that experience.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

Okay, there you go. So Okay. That was Speaker Mike Johnson who credits Trump's big beautiful bill the um and credits God for delivering them through that. Um, that same bill that is kicking thousands off of Medicaid and giving tax breaks to billionaires. Um we can thank God for that.

SPEAKER_09 25:00

You folk folk just be throwing around the Lord's name. Folks just throw it, throw it around. And people aren't like people don't. We need to we need to restore fear of the Lord. We just need to restore fear of the Lord. Um Yeah. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_07 25:18

I just I just he's gotta be careful.

SPEAKER_09 25:21

I just wants to be careful. It's wild. Throwing around that you can say it's the name. Throwing around the Lord's name.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Yeah. Um throwing around. Well, let's not talk to Mike Johnson. Um, we're we're thankfully we have a much better guest.

SPEAKER_09 25:34

Yeah, redemptive conversation.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

But if if in case he's listening to this podcast and he wants to come on, we're happy to have Mike Johnson on the podcast.

SPEAKER_09 25:40

Are we happy to have Mike Podcast? You know? Well, you know, we we we want a model of civil discourse. There you go. And let's do charitability.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

Charitability.

SPEAKER_09 25:51

You're a kind, charitable person.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

You know who's kind?

Meet Alexis Bussetti And Her Work

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Alexis.

SPEAKER_09 25:54

Alexis is.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

We're going to talk to Alexis Bussetti, who's uh pursuing a PhD in intercultural studies at Fuller Theological Seminary. Uh, she hosts a podcast, Malcolm. I don't know if you know about it. It's called That Makes Total Sense.

SPEAKER_09 26:06

I do know it.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

And is committed to journeying toward the heart of God, exploring his generosity and justice, seeking out how to live it every single day. She lives in Houston and has written a book uh along with her co-author, um, Dorcas Cheng Tozon, uh, called Migration, a six-week interactive Bible study that we used as a church uh for our first ever Sunday school this past summer. And now we get a chance to have Alexis on. All right. Well, welcome, welcome. Uh Alexis, thank you for being joining us with our podcast Theology and Pieces. First time ever, yes?

SPEAKER_00 26:52

First time ever. Not my first time ever sitting across from Malcolm.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

I was gonna say, from what I hear, he has been on your podcast multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

I want to say more than anyone.

SPEAKER_09 27:05

I think it's true. I I think it's true.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

I want it to be true.

SPEAKER_09 27:09

Um, I I call myself the favorite of that podcast of your podcast. So not a lie.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

What is uh so your your podcast that makes total sense. What is that about in a in a nutshell?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah, our tagline is exploring God's generosity and justice, which I kind of jokingly say means it's broad enough that I can talk about whatever I want to whoever I want. Nice and which is why Makham's been on four times. Because, you know, we can talk about God's generosity and justice and whatever that looks like. So we've talked about a ton of stuff from lynching stuff at the beginning to anti-greed stuff and the most recent.

SPEAKER_09 27:47

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

I think so.

SPEAKER_09 27:48

Yeah, because I haven't I don't think I've come on to talk about the new book yet.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

No, you haven't, but don't forget that we had a listener request that you need to come on and talk about pastoring.

SPEAKER_09 28:00

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Ooh, who knows? Maybe we'll do both of you guys. But pastoring in that context of this anti-greed.

SPEAKER_09 28:08

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Gospel sentiment. So anyway, people do keep asking me though.

SPEAKER_09 28:14

And I'm like, I'm I'm trying to convince my church too.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

We'll talk about it. Amazing. Amazing. Um, but we we wanted to invite you on to the podcast because uh of your book. And I I'm curious, I haven't even looked at when it most recently came out. How long ago was this?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

It's been a year. A year out in July of 25.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Okay. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_09 28:36

It was funny because I I was I was in this, I was in this office and I was looking at it and I was like, because I I Slim was the one who did the Slim Slim was the one who did the um the the Sunday school around it, and I and but I looked at it, I was like, wait a minute, I have the lexus.

SPEAKER_07 28:52

I was like, Slim, let's have the lexus on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Familiar.

SPEAKER_09 29:01

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Malcolm, if you knew, yes, if you asked me, I'll say yes, but also yes, in a week that I shouldn't be saying yes, but it was too much fun. I was like, are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_09 29:13

So sorry. Thank you. Thank you for your service, Alectos.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Thrilled. This is like a bonus. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

Well, our our our church uh has uh received a uh grant from uh Faithworks um uh organization uh to they call it the Thriving Congregation's Immigrant Ministry. Um and so um one of the things that you know we were starting to do is kind of come up with our idea of what to do with that. Um and it, you know, to do um some ministry around kind of uh uh they break it into two different camps, around one around the kind of like the justice side and one on the compassion side. Um and so we've been thinking through that. And part of the idea was you know changing the narrative around immigration. And before going out to the community, which is where we're thinking of of uh talk taking it and talking about that, uh, we went to talk with our church first. And so we were like, well, what resources uh could we do to kind of talk through that? And um uh this book got recommended to us. Um, and my goodness, it is beautiful. It is, it is awesome. I I'm I'm curious, how did this come to being? Um, is this something that you all I don't know how do you how do you and uh Dorcas know one another? Your co-author.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Right. Yeah, this book was wild.

How The Migration Study Began

SPEAKER_00 30:29

You say, how did it come to be? I would say it is like, as far as I know, in a pretty unconventional kind of way. So first, thank you. It is stunning, as you say. It is just a beautiful, beautiful um book and study. And I just didn't have anything to do with any of that. I mean, it's it is it is so beautiful. But what it started as like, I think it was back in 2021, I want to say. Um Dorcas was working at the time for Made for Packs, which is the organization that um originally put this together and then published it with University Press. And I had come on and just done a few projects with them. So right now they're um they're really a cohort-based organization. Um, and back then they were doing some really kind of slow, uh curated, beautiful content made by BIPOC Christians for BIPOC Christians, specifically like kind of younger than me, um BIPOC Christians. And they were putting this out there and they asked me to come in and help to put some of them together, kind of bring some of them together uh by topic and put them in like a Bible study format. And so I worked on that, Dorcas worked on that, the team at um Made for Packs worked on that, and then IVP ended up coming and picking up uh a couple of them. This one, um, there's also one on mental health that my co-author Dorcas worked on, which is phenomenal. It's in the same format. And um when we found out they were gonna be released in the summer of 2025, we were all just, I mean, Dorcas and I, also the team at Made for Packs, but also Inner Varsity Press were like, wow, we feel like the timing of this kind of couldn't be better. And so it saddened us that that was the situation that the book was being released into. And at the same time, it brought us so much hope and joy to think that this would be utilized exactly as Mosaic has utilized this for a Bible study for your church group, for your small group, for individuals, or just you know, groups of friends to come together and talk through this really pressing, sensitive, controversial topic in a way that hopefully points us back to God, ideals in the Bible, um, Christian community, love, compassion, justice, all of those things that you named.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Yeah. What was your so this kind of seems like this was brought to you? Like, hey, could you help us? Um, but they must have seen something in you to say she would be interested in that. Is there has there been something that, you know, like what was your first kind of uh connection um uh with immigration to have uh some you know thoughts on this, whether you were like anti or like build the wall or uh build the wall, build up either way.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Somebody cut him off. Um mute button anyway. I used it, I use it frequently when he's on my podcast.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

I have this. We could just make it sound like we're cussing at each other.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Um that's a that's a great question. So at the time that the study that I was working on the study, I was also working on my MDiv. Um, and and we can go there in a minute,

Identity And Early Racist Rhetoric

SPEAKER_00 34:03

I guess. What's what before that, and I won't tell my whole life story, but I am mixed Hispanic. My dad is white, my mom is Mexican American. Um, and I represent and and I I used to joke and say, I just kind of looked generically ethnic. Like just kind of depending upon the context, people guessed kind of different things. Um, but I grew up in southern Oklahoma where arguably, let's not get into it, Waco, arguably the buckle of the Bible belt, but you know, I know there's a lot of claims to that. Um, and grew up in a predominantly white, conservative, evangelical Christian community. And I remember in my youth group of there being kind of guys making jerky racist comments like they should all just go home. And I knew that when those comments were being made, and this wasn't I mean, this was in the 90s, so this wasn't like there was something, you know, immigration wasn't on the news in the ways that it is today. Um but I knew that that meant to me. Even though um it was my great-grandparents who immigrated, um, there was still something about that rhetoric, those comments that I knew that people who looked like me, no matter how long we have been here, my mom was born in the United States, her parents were born in the United States, I was born in the United States, but no matter how long my family had been here, we were always going to be viewed by some as immigrants, and that equation for them that immigrant meant to be bad, unwelcome, to evil, to whatever it was. And so even though I don't have an immigration story myself, I think my family has an immigration story, and um and that is a part of who I am, and then especially having those interactions in Christian communities, um brought that home for me to say we've we've gotta be able to talk intelligently well with compassion about this topic, especially as you're saying, Slim, before we try to go out and make any moves um you know, in our larger communities.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

What um when I I when we looked at the um kind of the arc of the book um with kind of the the the four M's of you went to you have your M div. Um the the manifesto myth, material emotion. Um you know, why did why frame it this way? Um and kind of maybe give a short tease of what each one kind of is is is lead leaned into.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Yeah, so that was um something, a decision made by tax for some of the um other studies that were out at the time online. Um they all kind of had this similar uh the similar pattern of those four M's. Um specifically here in the migration study, it it guides I think one of the the great purpose that it serves is it allows us to zoom out on a topic that can we can really be tempted to get lost in the weeds. Um and there there are some weedy topics in here for sure. And and and and you know, those moments where it is really important, for example, to talk about the Chinese Exclusion Act, you know, for us to know those parts of our history. Um and at the same time, what these uh statements allow us to do is to zoom out and try and get a grasp of what migration can mean for us as people of faith and how our faith can inform how we think about this broader topic of migration, including how I think we I would argue how we have been malformed in some ways to to think about that, which is for example where the where the myth uh statement comes in.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Yeah. Yeah, the uh the thing that uh struck me, I've because I've I I'm I'm I'm Indian Gram 9, but you know, there's uh part of me that wants to engage in this debate and this battle a lot right now because it's just so relevant and um urgent to have this conversation, and I'm just like one of my uh my early ideas for our like presenting our idea to the grant was like like how do we just like start debating people? Like how can can we can we just like become like the Charlie Kirk on this topic and just go it doesn't feel very nine-ish.

SPEAKER_09 39:23

I know. It's it's weird, it's weird for me to watch him with this where I'm like you like like he's reading all these books on like persuasion and stuff. Like, why are you trying to persuade people? I'm like, anyway, sorry, anyway, it's time to sign up.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

That's that's I I I've got to know your Enneagram number amongst them.

SPEAKER_09 39:41

That's a good one Okay, here's the thing. Because I think You knew there was gonna be yours. The the test ago when I when I when I took the test, I think it said that I was a that I was a three. And I think I was living in that for a while.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

I was gonna guess it.

SPEAKER_09 39:56

I was gonna guess that but I I but I think I'm a five.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

I have to, I'm, I'm, I'm uh, I'm I'm gonna- What's the one that says I'm special? I'm not gonna be put into a box. I'm gonna take it. Is that a four or five?

SPEAKER_09 40:07

I need to find some I need to find another test that I can take relatively for free. Um and uh tough to get those for free.

SPEAKER_07 40:15

I mean that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Read a book. I don't remember the book at the time. Someone told me read a book in the chapter that on the number that makes you feel the most uncomfortable. That's you, and you don't need a book. I mean, you don't need a test.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

Well, there was one there, and maybe this this book, the uh The Way Back to You.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Um, maybe it maybe that was it.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Someone gave that to me early on, uh, and I read it and I was like, oh, I'm chap like because it goes in in order one, two, three, four, five, six. Um, and I was like, Oh, I'm a one. Oh, I'm a two, oh I'm a three. Then I was like, oh my gosh, this is so stupid. It's like depend on whether I had caffeine that morning or or not, it depends on what number I had. So I was like, I literally took the book and threw it in the trash. And then like five years later, someone's like, You realize like that's what an Enneagram nine does. They see themselves with each number. Like I didn't finish it, I didn't keep reading.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

I didn't get to the nine to know that that's what we do.

SPEAKER_04 41:06

Nice, nice. Anyways, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

You're gonna you're

Polarization And Bridging The Divide

SPEAKER_00 41:10

gonna debate people, Slim.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

Gosh, no, I'm not gonna be able to do it. I'm not gonna debate people, but I I was I'm I'm just at the point where I'm like one of the the the the things that I struggle with so much right now is that we have such like deep polarization and such echo chambers to where like when do you get a chance to even present if someone does have that myth about immigration that the you know immigrants are are a drain on society or whatnot, um when can you actually challenge uh and say, hey, here's an alternative way of seeing this? Like it's just we are just getting continually fed the our own way of thinking that it's just like um when when can we make these things happen? And if I try to initiate that conversation with someone at, you know, like, hey, let's have a conversation around immigration, they're like, no, thank you. Like where that that's instantly gonna shut things down. Um, so I guess I'm I'm switching my my my my question now to you is really this is just a self-help. Um help help me uh in this moment is is have you seen any positive ways of people bridging that divide and and bridging that gap to like this book is incredible and I think it's really good um for our people to wrestle with. It's uh but um I'm also going like how can I bring my my my um MAGA uncle alongside to go go through that as well? I don't know. What what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 42:40

I mean I feel like that's the million dollar question. Um and it's and it's good that we're asking it. I think we're all asking it. I mean, my first instinct um is you know, to to say, oh my gosh, the the opportunities of a pastor. And then I also didn't know I mean way less than what the two of you know, but also we say we don't as pastors you you wouldn't have people's attention for very long compared to when they have their attention on anything else. Um and at the same time, I I'm gonna give the Sunday school answer. So just it's okay, Malcolm. We may have to bleep him out, but I'm gonna give the Sunday school answer.

Jesus As Migrant And Incarnation

SPEAKER_00 43:22

And I'm gonna say um I think Bible stories really help. Now, okay, when I say that, let me give an example. I don't know if this was helpful or not, but um when this book came out, I was posting on it on my social media and there was a comment from someone and I had said something in my description, something in my caption about Jesus being a migrant, or maybe I maybe I use the term migrant god or something like that. And this person apparently thought that was. very controversial thing for me to write and put in the comments um some something to refute that uh what what do you mean jesus was a migrant and so i had to catch my breath because i am a one but i feel like i got a lot of nine in me when it comes to conflict like i just don't like it and so i'm like okay this is like so i'm so i'm having to kind of like slow my roll and like what do i do and da da da and my tone like i'm gonna use it with my voice now because it's really what i wanted to convey in this little post but i know it's hard and i'm like oh my gosh you know what's wild one of my favorite stories about the birth of jesus is when joseph has that dream that like wild dream and he takes Mary and Joseph over I mean Mary and Jesus you know he takes them over into Egypt and it's it's anachronistic but we would call them refugees at that point and then you know he comes back later to his homeland but then when he grows up he is an itinerant pastor for all you know I mean he's a rabbi he's he's going around he doesn't have a place to be yeah Jesus is a migrant and I think that that's really beautiful Alexa Alexa assist Alexis Alexis but it's also but it's also even better than that though because like the incarnation in itself is a is a migration right like it's like that's that's that's fundamentally there there is movement so it's why it's really important that this is titled migration as opposed to immigration because something that is common to the human expert experience is movement.

SPEAKER_09 45:51

It's what we do we move we move from one place to another all that kind of stuff and and and that kind of central human act is also like that is explicitly what the incarnation is it is a movement it's a movement of a God who like doesn't need to move like like like it but he but it's but it's something that he chooses to do out of love.

SPEAKER_07 46:16

Like that's what that's what this that's what our whole faith like it's what our whole faith is founded on.

SPEAKER_09 46:21

And so like and so the fact that so like I mean there's a there's a sense in which it cuts it ought to cut at the core of these conversations that we have and and as and you know it's why you know it's it's important to as as you do to frame it in migration as something that is common like it's something that's common to literally all of us.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 46:44

And that and and and and in that sense it um it levels the playing field. But also just for us as Christians like the the the fundamental mystery that lies at the that lies at the root of our faith is that we serve a God who chose to move and chose to move toward us. Like that like that that in itself that expression of God's grace and love for us like that that ought to shape the way that we have these conversations and all this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Because like I um uh you know Jamar just did this his movie on do on uh uh on dude this is being a mica yeah it's fine uh it's great it's great it's great great movie but it but it also but but even even in that phrase uh if people freak out about it my response is just gonna be the the incarnation is a migration absolutely if you believe in you believe in Jesus then you you believe this you you believe this phrase but no way I mean that the literally the first line in my notes for today because I did a little prep is migration is central to the human experience it's it's almost verbiting what you said it's it is it is central to us but you know to use the the Bible stories to use um the story of Jesus the some of the stories that show up in this study um of Ruth of Naomi of Joseph of of Paul even you know it's it's over and over and over again but it is as you say Malcolm it's a God that chooses to move with God's people so it's not like a like a high up watching an ant farm kind of situation it's a like in the ant farm you know uh kind of situation yeah but let's play but does the Bible really apply today um because Mama's favorite game because the way you speak you know that just feels like that sounds nice but um that so the common um I'm I'm guessing you've had this before uh someone say well that was Israel we're not Israel uh like you know I understand God wanted uh Israel to care for the foreigner in Leviticus 19 um but Israel was a theocracy um they were God's covenant people why should we live in that that state we're not the modern state of Israel um right we you know why should those commands still apply to Christians today what do you think what do you do to that oh my gosh I'm gonna not say the snarky answer so you're gonna have to give me a snarky answer this is a this is a safe space to not to not do the snarky answer okay the snarky answer and then I'll go into maybe what what might be different if I can get there after that.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

The snarky answer is when I was growing up in in my church experience cultural Christianity claimed that we were strangers and aliens in this world. So snarky me wants to come in and say if that argument still stands and we combine that with I don't know something real stupid like the golden rule and we would want to like just kind of treat each other with just like general respect, you know, kind of regardless of our places or what our beliefs are or you know those kinds of things anyway. But that I'm sure isn't applicable. Um what I would say to the does that command still stand is probably something more like what that teaches us is about how about God's desires for us to be humans interacting with one another. I don't believe that it God's desires for humans to be oppressing each other. You know I don't believe that it's God's desire for humans to be wielding power in harmful ways over one another. And so we get a beautiful example of of God telling God's people Israel that this is what I would like for you to do because I understand that as humans that you are creatures and your creaturliness makes it very easy to forget what it was like to be a stranger. Just today again I I think I told you I was on a rabbit trail in my sermon prep and I went to do Deuteronomy at chapter six and Moses comes in and he gives the Ten Commandments and he says the Shema and then he says the greatest commandment and then he says this beautiful little mini speech about when you come here into this land, you're gonna have these houses that you didn't build and build and these groves of olive trees that you didn't plant and these cisterns that are full of water that you didn't tune and and don't forget basically when you get real settled and happy here how you got here don't forget the God who brought you here and and where you came from and that you're coming into this place settled because you've got provisions for you here. And he's telling them that I think because it's easy for all of us to to forget. And I think that we see that you know one of the things that the the study brings up um is just kind of the obvious thing that in the states most of us have a family story of migration because most of us are not native to the land that we live in.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:04

And I think many of us have forgotten yeah that was helpful to even even on the on the slightest part of well are you where you grew up and like most people are not even living where they grew up right so like and I'm obviously you're taking it much deeper with you know the land but that that that it's an easy connecting point.

SPEAKER_09 53:25

I thought that was a helpful like uh olive branch to someone to go like well that's true I I did grow up in Ohio now I'm here whatever and and it's and it's it's fascinating that at least the the reasoning that the Lord gives for not only not only the laws about um about how we treat the immigrant but also even some of the stuff surrounding uh a lot of stuff surrounding enslavement was like remember that you remember that you were enslaved and I set you free so don't enslave other people.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_09 53:55

Remember that you moved so treat people so so so so so so so so treat the foreigner as though uh as though he's one of your own like that that but guys memory this is God speaking to the church to say like you personally like have like a a good church ministry to care for the for these uh the least of these but like governmentally the government needs to to be different than that and so like we need to have strict government uh borders but we as a church can can yeah care for you know the the the poor migrant how do we feel about that like isn't that isn't that the right way of reading scripture alexis do you want to jump in Alexis there's I feel like Malcolm is giving up right there I feel like Malcolm's doing a lot of preacher hum again I'm gonna I feel like I don't want to I don't want to be snarky there's something about being on screen with Malcolm that it just I did this to people kind of the inner snark where I wasn't even here totally fine it was totally fine I was just sitting to the table

Church Safety Sanctuary And The State

SPEAKER_09 55:00

just prepping in a real nice way um anyway um well I think here's part of it I'm gonna I'm gonna bring something that's snarky and also a little bit of of what I'm just gonna pull like a low-hanging fruit here and say one of the things that we've run into uh uh recently I would say even now um is that that kind of dichotomy that you just presented is is ending up being problematic for many because these churches might bring in a we need to follow the law of the land situation and it's not even as clear cut as people as as Christians or as people of of of the Christian faith we would take care as we feel instructed to do biblically we might say and many are saying now actually I can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

I need to be hands off because there are regulations that say that I can't I mean this is what the sanctuary movement was right decades ago and then we're seeing kind of a a bit of a resurgence of that where um you know some churches are saying we want to be a safe place. And also I just read a headline today with the the TPS ending for Haitians that many churches that have large Haitian populations are largely empty. But of course we saw that also with um the election of Trump both times is that many churches who had large immigrant populations ended up seeing many of their people staying home because they were afraid because the church was no longer a safe place when it came to government enforcement. And so that the church I think these communities is becoming kind of a battleground place for that, which is tragic um and unfortunate. But we're we're even seeing some of that where people were expressing fear to go in public but also expressing fear to be at their church services because um or other enforcement um was so strong especially in some cities.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

And so that I don't know I'm that doesn't exactly answer your question but I think that that is one of the places that we're seeing that kind of a live kind of debate going back and forth with real life implications right now.

SPEAKER_03 57:36

Yeah you uh I think in a in a way of saying it is like you can't divorce these two um to say like no we're gonna we're that's the state's gonna do that but we as a church yeah we will love and care for immigrants but then the the church then has to say well am I honoring God's law uh and if the state is saying that but uh another example of that where that dichotomy breaks down uh I won't out any um local nonprofits um but I I know of a few local nonprofits um when I was asking the question like hey so what does it look like you know for us to you to be compassionate you know what would what would what what would be some of the needs in the community that we that were that you know we we could meet with the with this new grant um and they were sharing how difficult it is for they themselves who began this ministry uh to to reach out and to care for immigrants when most of the immigrants have been picked up and have been deported have been are are are at camps uh three hours away in San Antonio um that are just you know like and so like their ministry is just completely shifted because it's like well there's not really an immigration ministry right now and you're going well let's just let the state do the state thing and then we as a church will do the church thing like no like it drastically changes how you minister to people right like and so like they can't be divorced like that.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

So no yeah I agree.

SPEAKER_03 58:57

Sorry I I I was ready to excite about that one I'm so annoyed by it.

SPEAKER_09 59:02

So rightfully so yeah Malcolm disagrees somehow no no no I don't disagree I don't disagree at all I think uh like a thoughtful face like yeah okay there's a um I at least for some people I think what I what I hear in that is a is a subordination of the church like is a subordination of the church of the church to the state and that's that's also like that's not my that's not my institutional view. Like these like these are not because that's not the relate like that's not the relation that I that I think of between the church and the state. It's not it's not and now that's not me saying that I think institutionally the church should should tell the state what to do. I think they function on different levels of authority. And so and so when I think about what it is that the Lord this is this this is why you have the apostles in in acts saying they have to obey God rather than man. I was like I don't like if the state doesn't like if the state doesn't interfere cool but like my first my first responsibility is whatever the Lord tells me to do like that's what I'm gonna do. If there are things that are largely irrelevant that the state wants me to do like for example pay taxes or stuff like that, cool, great.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:16

But like where there is any point of conflict I'm going with the Lord. And so like that like that's that's that's what's happening.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:24

And so like and that's the there there is it's it's interesting to see folks when they when they think about their like first level of deference, they think about deference to the state. And then they're like okay well if if there are things that the state doesn't say anything about then I'll do what God says. It's like that's not how that's not how that works. It's the opposite going in the opposite way.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

But that's not true for Christians in every setting with every issue. And and that's some of the thing where I think that's that's interesting, you know so um gosh I don't know if I'll just throw this out there. You can cut it if you want to but um I just read a really interesting book oh yeah cried you said no editing. Okay so we'll throw it out there and we'll see what happens. Come on yeah Malcolm Malre said it's the same place. But so I'm just gonna give an example I'm not gonna I'm not gonna like say anything or like throw shade or whatever. There's none of that. But I'll just give an example um uh I just read a book on uh the vaccine hesitancy movement in the US uh written by a scholar of religion and so she's got this really interesting take on it but part of it is when she goes through this history and kind of sees when um the conservative Christian right kind of marries with this vaccine hesitant movement that has come from these other contexts and so what I might say is we had a whole lot of Christians for example during COVID who were saying the state says we have to stay home we have to wear masks it's um really important that you get vaccinated and in those moments we had many Christians who were doing the flip-flop of what you just said and they were saying no no no no no their beliefs were that this wasn't what God might want them to do as far as I understand I don't know I I wore a mask and I stayed home and I got vaccine but but my understanding from some of some of my siblings there um you know Christian siblings there were that it was uh a faith mandate that they were reckoning with and so I'm just gonna throw that out there as one example as to say I don't think that it is a an across the board thing where Christians would come in and say yes I have I defer to the state because I think there are these these other issues and vaccine is just one of the maskings one of them we could probably name others if we thought about it um where the flip-flop is true and it's the state actually doesn't have the authority to tell me to do that and so I'm gonna do this. You know you could say other things that are coming up right now we all live in Texas so we've got 10 commandments that are going to be posted in the schools we've got Bibles that are you know we've got all those kinds of things but it's it's a you know so some certain group groups of Christians who are saying this in these ways we are going to bow to this part of what we uh how we interpret our religious experience and and and actually either either defy the law or work to change the laws um for that but some there's definitely some Venn diagram overlap who would then go the other way and say actually deportation is the law of the land now ice is the law of the land now those kinds of things and we defer to the state in that I would say not that I don't have anything any internal contradictions myself or that we're all free of that but to say that um these two things are they don't speak the same so okay that's good because we're we're gonna we're gonna keep we're gonna keep going with this because that's a very important point.

Why Christians Pick And Choose

SPEAKER_09 1:04:11

So then so then as we speculate together as to why that as to why that disjunction why that dissonance is there my answer would be racial capitalism. But as we as we think together like what what what why why one why why approach one issue one way and why approach and why approach the other the other another as if we were to speculate why why might that why might that distinction happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:47

Well you say racial capitalism um for that which I I I think is a good answer. A simpler seed of that might be I would say is it's just we justify anything based on what we want to do. How does it benefit us which it goes into I think some of the what you're saying there. I'm gonna have faith that I'm gonna go into these services unmasked and and you know not not vaccinated um that's faith over fear then all of my family dies um right I have people who like so it's it's real it was real um but we have faith over fear and then these moments here like one of the states has to do this um we we have these laws and you're going actually I thought it was faith over fear also there are immigrants here who are trying to follow the laws and then the laws just keep changing on them and whatever right there's there's so many things. I uh to me it's just ultimately I think sin I think what does Luther call it like sin is really just like the the heart turned inward um and so it's just selfishness. It's like what do I want? What is what but that benefits me that's my thought do you do you do you disagree Alexis?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

No actually you kind of you looked at my paper. So you know Um, but I know I would say I I uh the fur when you said racial capitalism, uh Malcolm, I thought, yeah, and kind of and more broadly, white supremacy, right, but also individualism. That that was gonna be my my kind of uh cut short way of saying what Slim just said. And then I also think that there is if we're putting ingredients into this cookie dough here, um, which is delicious. Yeah, I don't want to eat that one, but you know, we're all missing this together. Um, I think we also have to throw in Christian nationalism there too, which says certain things about what it means to be an American and what it means to be a Christian in America. And um and you know, part of that says only certain people belong here and the people who belong here have certain rights. And so I think that almost to me kind of um helps with the cohesion a little bit of those of those things kind of all melding together because it it it ensures that only certain people who look a certain way exist here and that the people who look that way are the ones with the most power and the most um and and the and the rights that are um well defended, probably. Um so I think that those things are all I think there's a mix of all of that together. I don't know. What do you guys think?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:35

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. You have something else you wanted to add to it?

SPEAKER_09 1:07:39

No, I just I just wanted to throw I just want to throw something out there for us to uh for us to consider together.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:45

That's all.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:45

Um I'm just asking questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:50

Dr. Carlson over here.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:59

Not in a nauseating thing, like in a laughing, like in a laughing double over kind of thing.

The Beauty And Complexity Of Migration

SPEAKER_03 1:08:05

Alexis, one thing that I I absolutely love about you the this book that I think is was just really formative for our um our small group um uh that went through it was not only like you can have um an um kind of a combative book of and you do talk about kind of like refuting the myths in that chapter, um, which I think is needed, and which has been a lot of what we're doing here of kind of just pushing back on. But you begin it with that um the link to to the um Josue's uh leaving the Costa Rican dream. Um, and there was this uh moment while listening to that, just hearing how much he wanted to go back to to Costa Rica that you go, it it just it it it it it cre um it cut me in a good way, reminding me of my own um bigotry, uh ethnocentrism, um, where I think America's the greatest.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:00

Um here.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

Of course, like why would he want to go back? He just came here, and you're like, well, he came here out of like need, but he wants to go back. And it just it was really helpful. And I think you you you do that throughout the book. Uh, you paint the picture of the positive element of migration as well as the the the beauty of migration. Was that like the kind of in the back of your mind as writing the as writing and uh you know or orchestrating this book um as a way to help counter some of these negative views of immigration?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:35

Yeah, I think what part of what was going on in my mind was I had kind of two hopeful audience groups in mind. And and one of them was kind of us sitting here in this room. I I imagine Slim that it was a lot of the people who ended up in your small group going through this study. So that was one. It was kind of the the curious church person, you know, who who kind of wants to to learn more and things like that. But the other group was people whose immigration story was much uh closer. So I um when we lived in Houston, I uh our family attended a church for about five years that was uh founded by uh a Chinese American pastor who was we, you know, say a one and a half generation. Um and so so we immigrated, but he was very young when he did. And so we kind of grew up as a as a Chinese American, but very um, you know, he's spoke English, his friends spoke English, his family didn't at home. Um, and he realized that there was um uh some cultural differences between like first gen uh folks like his parents and then kind of 1.5 second and third going on. And so we were a part of this congregation that was like 1.5 second and third. And I also have a lot of um friends who have immigrated from other parts of the world, mostly South America and Africa. And my hope was that if any of my friends got a hold of this book, that they would feel honored and that their stories were respected. Um and and so in that I think underlying that is yes, because my friends are beautiful people, you know, and and I would I would hope that their that their stories would be reflected and honored um in a book like this one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:48

Um yeah, no, I think that that that comes across um uh you deep care for the uh the people you're writing uh about. Um but also think it it carries so much more weight in the um the argument for it. Um when we are trying to just win a battle um and trying to you know uh you know argument battle. I feel like sometimes we just like you know use the you know, let's let's let's debunk this myth. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and we just we just hit that without like painting a positive picture of what like the beauty of immigration, the beauty beauty of migration. Um I I liken it to, you know, when we were uh as we um planted Mosaic, our church here in Waco, uh we emphasized that we were a multicultural church. And we're not saying that every church has to be multicultural, um, but but we found it so beautiful and so helpful that I'm like, I don't know why you wouldn't want this as another church, but I think it's great. Same thing with like we shifted our view of uh uh uh on women in leadership to where now I'm like I I can understand why you might have uh hiccups on it. I had hiccups uh before, but I'm like, I don't understand why you wouldn't want it. It's like so much better. Uh and then I now I like when I I think it's just a way of seeing the the truth and going like, no, if you know, Philippians 4a, that like like you know, uh that truth is beautiful. And I'm like, it doesn't have to always be that way. Sometimes there's hard truths and things like that. But I think to me, this is like a good argument of saying, like, no, this is actually the beauty of migration. And so I thought that was a really helpful way of framing it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

It thank you for that. And I I agree with you. I want to go back to what you said just for a moment about um wanting to go back to Costa Rica. Um, because I I think that you're you're getting there. I want to say this a little bit more explicitly, maybe with the beauty portion. Um I'm a mom, so one of the things that came to my mind was like childbirth or, you know, more generally, like parenting or marriage or things like that. These are like really beautiful things that are also like really hard. And and so this this kind of tug, you know, that he felt wanting to go back to Costa Rica. Um, I want to say a just a couple of real quick things on that. Um from like a again, I'm I'm not a scholar expert on migration. I have took a class in my MDiv with uh someone who is, um, Dr. Alexia Salvatera, who is just a brilliant uh scholar and uh on a activist in in migration. And she talks about um push and pull reasons for why people um migrate. And you know, so she she talks about um push reasons kind of being the ones that might be, and this is my kind of my paraphrasing now, might be more applicable to people who um come as uh refugees or asylum seekers. You know, they have maybe there's political violence, maybe there's oppression, there's something happening um in their country, could be economic where they feel like they can't stay because they're being pushed out. And then there is um kind of some pull reasons why people might move to a different place. Maybe they have family who has also moved and they want to be near to them. Maybe they would get a job or an education or something like that that would pull them to a different place. But um regardless, those those things exist, but there is often um a still a very, very, very strong connection toward home, like it, you know, would be for any of us who haven't like migrated uh internationally. Um and the other thing I would say is um years ago, I took a training with an organization. I think they are still operating in Houston called Houston Welcomes Refuge Refugees. And they had the volunteers do this training where they kind of went through and um had us start listing on a piece of paper kind of like a bingo card, these things that were meaningful to us. And they gave us different categories, you know. And by the end, I had things on my bingo card like um my husband and my dog and my kids um individually, you know, in each square um my wedding ring, my house, you know, things like that. And then they take us through this exercise of of someone who's experiencing a push migration and saying, now you just start marking these things off, you know, and they and it's it's this narrative, this kind of narration exercise. And um the emotional toll of just doing the exercise in my own house, you know, on Zoom or whatever, um was heart-wrenching. And and so, you know, this I think that we can it it's it's difficult to try and present the complexities that come with migration, but then I think that's kind of important why we you know go back to even to um some of Malcolm's first comments on this is that like when we were talking about migration is just a part of the human experience. And so in that it is complex, like it is a complicated uh phenomenon that is very difficult to categorize. And I think that that's one of the main goals of of this study is is to bring this and say, can we help foster compassion? Can we help foster just a view of humanization um for one another when migration is um central to someone's story?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:50

That's good. Um I'm gonna have not shared with our church yet our uh the the grant that we've Malcolm really scared of. I've not shared what have we not kidding.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:04

I'm like, I'm all in. What's the tea? What is the tea?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:10

Uh so I killed a man last night.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:14

Oh well now it's on the podcast. Exactly. Yeah, no, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:25

Like, I'm not doing the extra.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:28

Um but uh we have not shared with our church yet the uh what we are doing with this

Church Grant Plans For Immigrant Ministry

SPEAKER_03 1:18:33

grant. We've been telling people that hey, we're applying for it. We're we're hoping to get it um, anyways, we we just we just got uh greenlit for it. And so the our plan right now for it um is uh we want to change uh some of the conversations around uh around immigration. Um and so instead of doing the Tarley Clark thing, um, we are going to reach out to four or five different churches in our area um and host um kind of a focus group night with four or five churches that would disagree on different things, but it has to be um with the intention and hopefully we've built enough trust and um uh you know uh political, not political, would you use uh uh earlier? Um did I say uh not the words like disagreeing everyone. Political capital, yeah. Yeah, political capital, yeah. Uh that they would trust that we're not. Enjoy doing that.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:21

I hope you enjoyed the guest.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:25

Malcolm's walking from a two-way mirror. There we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:30

No, the the the goal is you know to train our churches to have conversations with people who wildly disagree on the topic of immigration. So um, you know, if we can't get people to to have conversations online or even you know, listen, you know, like can't you can't just send the article to people, you know, then they come back with five other articles. Um and so I don't think people accept uh invitations to be changed, they accept invitations to be heard. All of the research I've been doing on um persuasion has proved has has shown me it's not gonna work. Um it's our goal can't be to persuade a bunch of people. Um and so really it's like, okay, what can we do? Um, and it's saying, let's have our change our hearts to be for our neighbors with who we disagree with um first, in hopes to understand them. And then maybe in that moment uh we can have both of our hearts soften, and the Lord might work something in both of us. Um, so we're gonna try to have these focus groups, dinner parties um that uh we would host uh with some other churches uh as one of the big things that we're doing. Um we will also do a border um trip experience because as you know, the the power of story and actually experiencing these things. And then on the compassion side that uh we wanted to do for this is um someone had shared with me um, you know, like how incredibly hard it is uh when you are um uh if you are an immigrant, like you you don't trust anyone. You don't trust churches. Um, as like are they even safe places? And one uh one um element to trust is gonna be through um through language. Uh language is an incredible barrier that compounds uh whether you can even you know bridge that trust gap. And so we're trying to see if we can get 20 different people in our church um to partner with a nonprofit that's doing uh ESL. And while they're also trying to learn Spanish, we're gonna have some people who are trying to um, or while they're trying to learn English, we're gonna have some people who are trying to learn Spanish and we're gonna match them to get together um to work on language and then hopefully have our church start to learn uh a little bit of their story and things like that. Um and then we're also gonna hire uh basically uh uh someone to be the Uber driver um um for immigrants. Uh transportation has been something that's been coming around, has been such a a big deal. Um, and so they're gonna, you know, to build help people to get to, you know, to bring food, uh to go to ESL classes, to, you know, whether healthcare, schools, legal aid, things like that. So this is our our big plan. We hope uh it can be uh, you know, it was a cool thing to come up with the ideas. Now we're like, now we gotta do it. Um so that's fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:05

Oh my gosh, that sounds incredible. Congrats on getting the grant. That's like you guys are that's that's a lot. And I I am so appreciative of that. People don't take up invitation to be changed, but invitation to be heard.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:21

Yeah, yeah. Gosh. Which is I like it makes sense. Like I know it, I know it naturally. Like I use the illustration. Like if I'm walking down the hall uh or uh down down the uh the center aisle of a of a mall, and someone at a kiosk says, Hey, you want to come talk to me? I'm like, no, thank you. Like, I know you're trying to sell me something.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:40

100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:40

Everyone's got an agenda. I'm really jaded. Um so how do you get to that point? You well, you can't come at it with like, let me change you, let me get you to buy something. And you know, it has to be something more along the lines of hey, this is a topic that we both clearly care about as Christians. Um, we are missing it. And for the unity of the church, is there a way for us to find a way forward? Um, so be praying for us that we can actually have those conversations with other churches. Uh, but I would love to hear more of uh down the down the line of some of the impacts things you hear from your book. It's only been out a year, but we hope uh people would pick it up and uh read through it and uh share with their churches as well. You're not in Houston anymore, is that what you said?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:24

I'm not. We moved to Austin just a little under a year ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:29

Is that why all the guitars are in the background?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:32

They've you know, we're just in a different space with all the guitars in the background. But now, when anytime I go, so even talking about moving, anytime I go home, you know, I say anytime I go back to visit my folks in southern Oklahoma, now I won't say I have to. Now I get to drive through Waco.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:49

Yay!

SPEAKER_00 1:23:50

Every time.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:50

Sorry about what TextDot's doing, though, to the roads, because it's always uh terrible here.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

Why is there traffic in Waco? Exactly. I feel like there should not be like I'm from here. I feel like there should not be traffic in Waco. But like, why is Waco giving us headaches every time we drive through?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:08

It's frustrating.

SPEAKER_09 1:24:09

Well, Alexis, we're gonna have you, we're gonna have to have you back uh to talk about it. Yeah, we gotta even the we gotta even the talk about your PhD, talk about your PhD stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:17

Can we talk about how I'm getting beat up by it?

SPEAKER_09 1:24:20

We can talk about that too. It'll be like a therapy session. We'll do it in public on a podcast. It'll be great.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:27

At that point, Resident just make it better. I don't even care.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:32

We we can't thank you enough.

Where To Find Alexis And Closing

SPEAKER_03 1:24:34

Um where can people find you, uh Alexis?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:38

They can find me at thatmaketotalsense.com. I am on Instagram some, but not very often. But I really appreciate you guys having me on. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:49

Yeah, go check out uh her podcast. Uh and we would uh also, as Matt said, we'd love to have you back on at some point. We've really, really enjoyed this. Uh if you have questions uh for Lexus or for us, uh you can shoot them at hello at theologyfeast.com. Um, best way to uh support this work is to give it a rate and a review. So if you found any of it helpful, please leave five stars, share with a friend, uh tell someone about uh this book, and uh we'll continue the conversation.