Welcome And Why Believe Anything

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Hey everybody.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

What's up, world? Welcome to the Theology Pieces, where we hope to build rebuild your theology that the church, the world, or somebody has shattered pieces, and we are your hosts, Slim. Ann. Malcolm. And today, Malcolm, I'm feeling spicy.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

And I want to ask, why should we believe anything you say?

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Oh, anything I say.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

No. Why should we believe anything? Uh we're going to talk about belief and you know, the the heart behind this podcast is called Theology in Pieces. Take big chunks of things and break it down into bite-sized pieces. Um, and so uh today we're gonna we're gonna shift into uh in a series uh discussing something that some might love and some might hate. We're gonna go we're gonna jump into the Nicene Creed.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Um speaking of which, that it's so interesting that you says some might love and some might hate it. There's no reason to there's you have no good reason to hate it if you're a Christian.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Hold on, let's let's start over. Today we're gonna shift to the time to to discuss the Nicene Creed.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Oh, there we go. That's not appropriate. There we go. There we go. So get excited! See, now that we're now that we're moving into a uh uh into a genre

Fashion Shock And Defining Beauty

SPEAKER_01 1:45

of catechesis, I'm gonna be much more serious during these podcasts now. Oh good before we were just shooting the breeze and hanging out and all this stuff. Now we gotta talk about serious business.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Good. Well, speaking of serious business, Malcolm, did you did you know celebrities from Zendaya to Kylie Jenner are wearing fecal matter? No. Yeah. This comes from AP News Report, uh, where there is a brand name behind the recent show Topping Fashion Moments.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

And the name of the brand is Fecal Matter.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Zendayah wore an angelic uh strapless gown at the premiere of uh I think of uh the Odyssey. Um the the design duo behind the the brand name, um it it's actually um Matiras Fecalis. Oh Matiras Fecalis, um, which is uh uh a Paris-based high-end fashion house. Um and in English that translates to Fecal matter.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, that is that is what that translates to. Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

Uh they said there's no other word for it. How can we can we how can we say this in a glamorous way? And so we said we're we're fecal matter.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Um okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

They want to challenge the wasteful side of fashion. Uh and so there is this beautiful tension in their work between the finesse and the decaying in the strong and the soft. So it it got me thinking after reading such a wild um no headline on AP News here. Oh no. Um, you know, they're they're making a statement with their fashion, Malcolm. Oh boy. And you know, it's really it's like, who gets to decide decide what what is beauty? Uh-huh. And so, Malcolm, I'm curious, what was your most horrible fashion take that you uh you rocked probably middle school, high school?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

No, man, I I'm I know I like I don't do I don't do horrible fashion. I'm I'm a very I mean besides like besides like over besides like I guess I probably did like oversized sweatshirts and stuff when I was in Okay. Uh when was it? It probably went into the first few years of college too, probably. Um but that's probably as bad as it went.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Just just a little oversized? Just a little oversized. There was nothing that you wore because it was like a fad at the time.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Oh, I didn't I no, I didn't pay attention to that kind of stuff. I was like, I only knew timelessness. No, I was a nerd. I didn't care, I didn't care about fashion.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Like I wouldn't consider myself uh fashionable or be one who's ever accused of fashion. But I have been caught up in fashion fads uh in trends. Sure. Um so I was uh you know a kid in the 80s and uh early 90s, we wore um, they had like these like almost like uh like tiger striped pants that were just so loud that they were like, you know, for like the um uh the what was it, Los Angeles Raiders at the time, right? The Raiders, and this was like those colors, and I had my big starter jacket, and I'm like looking so cool. Um I was also uh crisscross came out at the time and I went and saw them, and so I decided to go to school with my clothes backwards. Okay. Uh, you know, I I I committed to that. Um I had the bowl haircut, uh, where you you just put literally a bowl on someone's head and you shave under it. Yeah, it's so this this sharp distinction between this the long hair and the bottom. Um I looked at high school and I had the Seashell uh choker necklace. Wow. Um, even as a junior in high school and frosted tips. And I shopped probably at Pacific Sunware.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Oh dear. Oh dear.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

I mean, we just wouldn't have hung, we just wouldn't have hung out in high school. I don't think I would have hung out with myself in high school.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

I was like, ah I was hanging out with the theater kids and like and my math science and computer science for people, but it goes into the conversation we had earlier about like, do you ever have any like uh oh that wasn't good or any regret?

SPEAKER_03 6:02

It's always a never for you. No, it it it on my tombstone is gonna be so many regrets. I I I joke that the Lord took my hair because I never knew what to do with it. For for a watch to I never did the comb over as a bald man.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

But I let it go thin for a little, probably just a hair too long, right? And then finally it's like, yeah, just commit. Just commit. So, you know, fashion is uh it's it's it's interesting. Uh you know it is interesting. Because, you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

So they say.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

Um,

Bad Style Memories And Regret

SPEAKER_03 6:40

and so that raises the question, you know, is is beauty that is it something that exists outside of us, or is it just, you know, whatever we decide? Um, and so that that's part of our, you know, you know, why believe anything uh conversation today? Um this other story, if you'll notice, we've not talked yet about uh any of the horrible things that are happening in our world. Uh this other story uh got sent to me by uh someone from our church. Uh and let's see, do we have the sound here?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

And I assume your name is Ryan.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Oh no, I think our sound's struggling with this. Um Alright, so I'll just I'll just describe it. Um there is a there is a gathering of thousands of Rions at the Mall of America. Um Ryan? Alright, alright, alright. Um and all of these Ryans gathered together.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Did you get the memo?

SPEAKER_03 7:50

To celebrate Ryans.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Did you did you get the memo?

SPEAKER_03 7:53

Someone did not share with me in time. Would I have flown?

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Clearly you're not a cool enough Ryan.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

That's a lovely soda.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

I just wonder how all these Ryan's found out and how you didn't slim. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Is there a a Ryan?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

I don't know. You're not you're not on the Ryan Group me. You're not on the Ryan Group meeting.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Maybe I am, but I just silence all group mees because there's so many group mees.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Get back on the Ryan Group me, Slim.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

But uh, you know, communities are just incredibly meaningful. Have you ever been a part of a Malcolm uh gathering?

SPEAKER_01 8:26

I uh think of other Malcolms that I've I mean I've met a few other Malcolms. Um you know, there's another Malcolm Foley who is a Scottish, he's a Scottish scholar. Because Malcolm is a Scottish first name and Foley is an Irish last name. So I have a very I have an entirely British Isles name. Give me your best Scottish accent. I'm not gonna do that. Um Malcolm Foley! I love you, love you though. Um give me the bitch accent. And this other Malcolm Foley um uh coined the term dark tourism, which is when you go to uh it's like it's like going to like sites where terrible things where terrible things happen. Um and so there's like a whole body of there's like a whole there's like a whole body of scholarly literature about that. But around dark tourism. Dark dark dark tourism is what it's called. But uh but now uh when you when you Google the name Malcolm Foley, it takes a number of pages for him to show up. So I'm just just just I'm so sad.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

That's it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Um well, if we are worried about our world getting more and more um isolated and beaten into echo chambers, I wonder if being with a bunch of other Ryans um is like the epitome of that. Just tens of thousands of people who believe probably don't believe the same thing. No, no, no. Yeah. Oh but um the last bit of news. Um, so we we've we've we've gone light. We've gone light. Let's let this is just so disgusting and so dear, so rough. Um this this comes from uh the uh the Bulwark uh podcast um sharing about the in we have we have internment camps in Texas. Um and share the story of this Venezuelan family um who is trying to self-deport back to Venezuela. Trying to self-deport back to Venezuela. Uh there's uh man named uh Freddie Rivia uh and Edgar Yanni Cortez um came to uh our country with a four-year-old daughter, uh, and they were feeling fleeing Venezuela at the time. Uh they came to America, applied for asylum legally under our rules, um, and since being in the country, have consistently gone to their local ICE facility for required check-ins uh as being reviewed. Um their daughter goes to school, is learning English. Um, but uh she gets pregnant, and because it's clear that during the Trump administration, uh they would not uh uh approve them for asylum, uh thinking that this would be uh trying to to do this what they're s claiming, this birth tourism thing that's happening. They've said let's self-deport. Um but because they found out that she was pregnant, they picked up the whole family and are now in an internment camp in one of these these facilities here in in Texas. And so she is uh now writing um the the the family is now writing a letter to uh Katie Britt as a senator um requesting since she has such sway over this this proceeding uh to let them go to Venezuela. They are not letting them go, and they're denying her let's see, this is part of the letter. We've been detained here since July 7th. For nearly three years, we lived in Pecos, Texas, where we worked lawfully. Our daughter attended school, we built our life for our family. We we regularly comply with our ICE check-ins. I never missed an appointment, we've never been in trouble. Earlier this year, we learned that Edgar Yanni was pregnant. The bull um we are immediately taken into custody and transferred to Dilly. We do not understand why we're still being detained, Senator Britt. We understand that you have a significant oversight role in the Department of Homeland Security and resources are being used for immigration detention. We're asking that you use that role to help our family. She's seven years old. Uh the their daughter. Uh, and

The Ryan Meetup And Community

SPEAKER_03 12:30

uh Yanni is pregnant and is not receiving medical care she needs. She has not received an ultrasound. We do not know what w whether our baby is okay, and there's she has reports of pain, uh, and all she's doing is giving Tylenol. She's not been taken to a doctor for evaluation. She's struggling to eat the food and drink the water here because they make her sick. She's having complications during her previous pregnancy, which makes them afraid for the baby. So they're not asking for special treatment, they're asking for their family to be allowed to go home. Like what are we doing? We just we have like you look back in history and you're like, how could how could America have these internment camps uh for the Chinese? Like, what are we doing? This is right down the road from us. Like And so I just I think before we ask, like, what is someone's political position position on this, like, we need to ask, like, what does God say is true about human beings? Like, who who is worthy of of the Imago Day? So I I just I wanted to like bring it was just such a jarring story, and I just wanna I've I've been you know hit with us being here in Texas and so proximate to some of these things. Like we we I I wanna be able to highlight them whenever I can. Um because you know we look at these these um these three random you could think random stories of uh the the the fashion story, uh this this gathering of all these people, and then now this detention center. And I think a lot of this, like I'm just I was trying to think of like how do you make sense of what we're where we're moving into of why we believe anything. And I think there's times when this stuff happens, you're just like, you know, like why believe anything? Like what is beautiful? Like with the fashion, or what is what is good? What what is a human being? What is reality? Um, and I think before we can answer those questions, we have to answer the ultimate question. I think that's where our um we we shift our time now to uh the the nicene creed. All right, y'all. Well, Malcolm, you excited about the nicene cream?

SPEAKER_01 14:42

I love it. Yeah, it is the only is the only ecumenical statement of Christian faith that the entire church around the world agrees on. Yeah. Like this is like this is this is this is the one.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Well, before we talk about the agreement, why do creeds matter, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Creeds matter because boundaries matter. Uh as much as people Don't tell me what I can. I know. This is why, see, this is why I'm so glad that we can get serious. Uh so boundaries matter because uh especially when it comes to especially when it comes to the Christian faith, but most of the most of the historic creeds, especially in looking at the first seven ecumenical councils, they're they're all um they're convened by the church, like the like for each of those councils, it's like the entire known church at the time. They gather to deal with particular heresies. They gather to deal with particular kind of dangerous teachings uh in the church. And those and those and those teachings are not just dangerous because they're false. It's because what they do is they undermine what the church understands to be the narrative of salvation, of what it is, of who it of who Christ is and what he has actually done for us. If we could we could do this with each of th this is this is one of the things that I love to talk about the most, are particularly these creeds, because what they what they reveal to us is what the church has affirmed from its from its earliest centuries of of uh who it is that God created us to be and what Christ had to do in order to get us in order to get us there. Um and so for the Nice and Creed particularly, uh, if we want to get into kind of some of the specifics of it, um so in 325 when when Constantine calls it, it's it's it's specifically to respond to Arius. Good old Arius. Good old, good old, good old Arius, um whose whose primary argument is that um is is that basically there was a there was a time when the sun was not. The sun meaning the son of God. Specifically with re with reference to Christ. If we were to narrow it down even more than that, it's it's the claim that the son of God is a created being. And that and the reason why Arius would argue something like this is because he wanted to protect the um basically to protect uh uh Christian monotheism. And so he's like, well, God, like God is God. God's the only, the only eternal, the only immortal, the only, all, only, only, only, only, only. Um, and so however we understand Christ, we can understand Christ as like the highest of all creation. Um, but if you were to ask, like there are two metaphysical categories. There's the creator and there are creatures. And the question is, on which of like which where does Jesus fit? And Arius is gonna say, well, like, there's only one in the creator category, so he must be in the creature category. Now we now we should be able to say like really, really significantly high things about him as a creature, but like, but he's a creature. Um and uh and his most significant um opponents were uh Athanasius and um and Bishop Al uh Alexander, but especially Athanasius, um, who is like no for a number of reasons. One, uh we don't worship creatures, and we as Christians worship Christ. And so that means that he's the creator. Um like the like the like they're like they're like they're there like there's like I mean that's a significant that's it's a significant argument for uh uh a Frathana uh Frathanacius too, like because basically saying it Arius, if you were right, then we're idolaters because we don't worship creatures. Um and um and so uh and there are like I said, there are there are a number of there are a number of elements to this, but when you when you go through um when you go through

Detention Camps And Human Dignity

SPEAKER_01 18:50

the Nicene Creed, what you what you what you see is in me it's it's yes, in many ways a summary. Um and as a number of members of the church call it, it's a uh like it's the symbol of the faith in the sense that this is something that in a lot of churches they repeat on a week-to-week basis to remind themselves of of the basics of the faith. But it's also a polemical document. Like it's a it's a document that was written specifically to refute a particular heresy at a particular time. Um and also what what we see as the Nicene Creed now um is actually uh the Niceno-Constantinapolitan Creed, which was in 380 was which was in 381, which added the portion on the whole on the Holy Spirit. Um and so you have this you have this articulation of the Trinity, uh, who the Father is, who the Son is, and who the and who the Holy Spirit is.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

But why like I've heard the phrase no creed but Christ, and it's this beautiful phrase that's saying, like, don't hold me to anything but what Jesus said. Yeah. Um and I think there I think that might come from uh a a good place, just like uh Arius probably came from a good place. Like I'm trying to uh you know protect this.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

It was matters of biblical interpretation. Like there were there were scriptures that he would point to, for example, that refer to wisdom as created, and when he and when he links wisdom with uh with the logos, the the the the the word of God. Um all these are arguments about there this is the other element. The all of these arguments with with with each with each of these with each of these ecumenical councils, they're arguments about scripture. Like these are all people who would affirm the authority of scripture and things like that. And so then so then so then so then so then the question is like, well, when that happens uh and there are debates over script who's who's right, because you can't everybody can't be right. Um especially when they're especially when you're saying contradictory things. Um and so this is uh and so and so when we when we look at kind of what the um because basically it it's a question about the about the tradition of the church, and you're like, where does that come from? That's what conversations about the creeds press us into.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

A creed is a statement or a system of basic beliefs, principles, or rules. So it's uh it's it's a yeah, a summary of these things. Um there are some you could call them mini creeds in the Bible, uh things that are summarizing what we believe. And this is what uh um you know Israel would would recite daily, um, that the Lord our God, the Lord is one, the Shema. Like this is uh that Deuteronomy 6.4. Like there are things like this that are uh ways to summarize great biblical truths. I think Jesus does this with okay, let me sum it all up and love your love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, love your neighbor as yourself. Right? So there's these summary things. Um and so when we when we talk about the Nicene Creed, you know, as as Malcolm uh told the history here, um we're trying to summarize some big biblical truths. Um I I don't Because Nicene did not intend for it to be inventing some new doctrine.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

No.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

They're trying to say, like, here's here's what we believe. This is what we've understood the scriptures to mean.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah, because the other the other thing to understand is that like the Bible is not a like it's not a systematic doc like it's not a systematic document. Like it's you've you've got a bunch of different genres. You've got even even in looking at the New Testament, you've got you've got the gospels, you've got these, like, you've got these idiosyncratic letters to particular churches where Paul where Paul, John, or Peter or others are dealing with particular issues, like there isn't a um uh, you know, there's not a even even if we were to ask the simple, the simple question of like what what are the effects of the cross? Like what does like what uh now that now that Christ has died and raised, like what is that, what does that do for us? You get a bunch of different answers in the scriptures, all of which are right. But like, but but but the but but but there also has to like the work also then has to be done of as Jesus promises in in the in his farewell discourse, of the Holy Spirit leading us, leading us into into all into all truth. Um and so um and so and so when we look at especially these ecumenical councils, and you get, I said, all the leaders of the church gathering in one place to answer a particular question, especially to respond to a heresy that cuts against that cuts against the very basis of salvation. So for so as an as another example of this, and something that's really important um for each of them, I I I noted Athanasius' argument that, like, well, we don't worship creatures. But also when we think about when when we when we think about salvation, um Athanasius and a number of the and a number of the of the church fathers affirm that the reason why the Son of God takes on flesh is in order to bring us up to where like is in order to bring us up to where to where he is or deification. And the idea is that only God can shape us into godlikeness. And and if Jesus is not that, then the best that Jesus can do is like making us great human beings, which is like that it's just not like that that's not the Christian that's not the Christian hope and and it's not the Christian promise. Um and and this is something it it plays into all of the uh it it plays into all of these all of these councils. These when when when you get people who deny who deny particular things to Christ. So like when you when you when when you look at the rest of the councils, you get you get you get heresies like um like uh like the heresy that Jesus doesn't have a human mind or that he doesn't have a human will, because because you get people who really want to protect, who then really want to protect the got the godhood of Christ, um, and then in some ways deny a full humanity. One of the one one of the things that the church wants to wants to press explicitly over and over and over again is the fullness of Christ's humanity and the fullness of his divinity. Um because that's the only because also because because the Christian understanding of salvation is such that that's that's the that's that's that's the only person that could that could save us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Um and so just putting a pin in the why creeds question here. Yeah, um the the bumper stickers of the Ref Reformation were the five solas, right? Um and one of the solas, um Latin for only, uh would be sola scriptura. And some might argue that is in contrast to having these creeds. And I think maybe some of the reason for sola scriptura, um, or one of the reasons for that, was that it was um the scriptures were only in the hands of uh a a select few at the time. Um and so they're now having the printing press, and now they're all having access to it. They're trying to say, like, let's base everything we believe on scripture. Amen. Hallelujah. That is I don't and that never was in contrast, even for them, in contrast to to the creeds. Like they it never said, therefore, let's get rid of the Nicene and and Apostles' Creed and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Um, and so I think creeds are just a helpful way for us to summarize some doctrine. Now, as Malcolm said, uh, one of the best things about us talking about the Nicene Creed is this is the rallying point for all these different traditions. I mean, it's it stood the test of time. It goes all the way back to three Christian tradition AD. Um, but then you know, there was the as Malcolm mentioned, the the the addition uh in 381 in Constantinople uh to expand on that. Uh you know, again, addressing some growing concerns on uh some some heresy. So it's kind of responding to some things and just clarifying what we believe as Christians.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Um now let's move into the the the creed itself. Um now because we are theology in pieces, we are gonna break this down into very bite-sized pieces. We're gonna spread this out for a little while. Um, it may not go as slow as it starts, but we're starting out slow. Uh we're only gonna be talking talking about two words today. Are you ready for two words? It it could be a really short podcast. Two words. It's we believe. Yeah. Um, so it'd be the the creed begins, we believe. I think in the Latin it says I believe. Um and in the Greek uh it says we believe.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Always go with the Greek.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Um but I I I I like both. We'll talk about that I think near the end. But um when I come to this question of you know, trying to unpack when it begins with uh I believe or we believe, yeah, um how much belief is enough?

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Um Greg Boyd has this uh this line uh on talking about if you were to go to uh one of those carnivals, um maybe here at the you know, heart of Texas Carnival, uh they have those um those big uh I forget what they're called, um big machine, you know, game that you can play, and you grab the big sledgehammer and you have to hit that bell uh and then the the little red uh ball goes up. And if you hit it hard enough, it can hit the very top and you you you're you're a winner. Um and he he's asking, like, is that what belief is like? It's like the sledgehammer of faith. If I believe strong enough, then I'm

Why Creeds Draw Real Boundaries

SPEAKER_03 28:40

certain. And so when we talk about like we believe, do we have to believe 100%? Do we have to believe, like, is it 80% if I'm convinced? What if it's 50? What if today I believe and tomorrow I'm doubting these things? And so I I think around the question of belief is I think we have to unpack that. Like, can you still be a Christian and have doubts? Uh what what what's your first thought to that?

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Yeah, I mean, doubt is a it's kind of a a very normal part of the Christian faith. If we're if we're thinking about the content of it at a base level, this, the Nicene Creed, is what you've as is what Christians is what is what Christians believe. Now, there may be elements of it. Um now, as we actually walk, as we actually walk the Christian life, I said doubt is doubt is a regular part, doubt is a regular part of that of that of that of that life. Um asking questions is a regular part of that life. And there are and there are none of these questions that we ought to be afraid, afraid to ask. One of the great things about having a having a um having a tradition with a you know 2,000 year history is that none of the questions that you have are new are new questions. Uh some things I love about having a PhD in the history of Christianity is that like I can tell people I was like, your question is not new. They've been asking it for hundreds of years. And and here are some really good answers that we have um that we that we have for it too. Um but yeah, I there there but there's also, you know, I think there's I think we also have an idolatry of certainty. Oh where we assume that there are certain things that we're just gonna be absolutely certain of. And we're and we're dealing with I mean we're dealing with the God of the universe, a God who is who has yes revealed revealed himself to us, but also still remains mystery. Um and the Lord is not calling and and as much as knowledge is an important part of our relationships, even when we think about our even even when we think about our most intimate relationships, let's say think about marriage. Um you know your spouse, but you will never know your spouse comprehensively. Like you will never actually be in their mind. Like Desiree can can predict some of the things that I'm gonna say before I'm gonna say them and stuff like that, just because we've we've we've lived that we've lived that life together. But uh but there are but but the but the human being is so remarkably complex that there is no other human being that you will know comprehensively. There are things that you don't even know about yourself comprehensively. And and so and so then to then expect that of your relationship with the God of the universe who is so much bigger than your brain will ever be able to comprehend, even in eternity, that's not a good expectation for you to have of yourself. Um these even these statements of faith are meant to kind of create for you a floor from which you can then encounter the God, the God of the God of mystery. Um But these are things that but these things in these particular creeds are things that God has revealed to us about himself, because that's also the only way that we would know anything about him would be for him to tell us.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Yeah. And so when we talk about before we I mean the in coming weeks, we'll talk about the things that we we're saying we believe. But when we say I believe something, um that that word gets used in a lot of different ways. Like I believe it's gonna rain tomorrow. I'm kind of I think uh I'm making a prediction. Um, I believe my wife loves me, it's something different. Um I say I believe in gravity, that's even something more different, right? Like those are different gradations of belief. And so if I say I believe in Jesus, um what category is that gonna be in? Like um when we come to Jesus, um, when or when we we we actually pray or have people come to Jesus, we usually have them pray a prayer. Um and we say, you know, confess your sins and and and uh and confess that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

And we also have them baptized, which is a very important, very important part of this.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

And so is that enough to just confess Jesus, you're my Lord and Savior?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah, this goes back to like what we think the word believe means. Like what pistelo means.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

And especially intellectual ascent.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah, and and in a number of our traditions, we we we we think that faith is an intellectual in is more or less an intellectual exercise. Um that pistis when we're referring to faith is I said this this mental ascent thing, as opposed to an understanding of faithfulness, um which which includes not only particular belief, but also particular action. Um and this is why like people get bent out of shape. And this is I know I'll step on toes when I say this, but it's it it's fine. People get bent out of shape when when um when James says Slims doing a sound effect, so I'm gonna let him do the sound effect, and then I'll continue my thought.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

No, no, you do your thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

It feels like uh people get bent out of shape when uh I thought I had a drum roll sound effect in here.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

It feels like a good idea for that.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Anyway, so I'll just I'll just say what I was gonna say. There we go. Okay. So, you know, when James says that we are that we're justified by works and not by and not by faith alone, and uh and Protestants kind of feel like we've gotta somehow mesh that with what uh Paul says about faith. Yeah. But like, but also you just have to understand like what's being spoken of when we're talking about faith and faithfulness. Like we're talking about yes, like we're like yes, we're talking about a particular belief, but we're also talking about actions that are actions that are paired with that. Um, actions that are paired with that belief.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

So Yeah, because the if you go and and and read the gospels, um, the people or the entities who have the best theology, the ones who constantly get it right of who Jesus is, yeah, are the demons. And I don't think anyone would would presume they have faith uh or belief. And so I think belief has to be more than just that intellectual, like, yep, that's who Jesus is. Which um it means I I have to be willing to build my life around that thing being true and adapt if I saying he is the Lord and Savior of the universe, that changes how I live. Um, as you were saying with James, like we we say this in in every other if you're not even a Christian, you say this in like actions speak louder than words. So you can say uh I love my wife. Now, if I cheat on my wife, if I'm you know unfaithful, if I indicate something to the gondra. Right, right. Like it it's very clear. I I do not love my wife. That's what it's like if that's the case. And so when you say like I believe, it really is saying like there's some there's some um movement, there's some action to it and evidence, as we would, you know, Jesus said, like, you know them by their fruit. It's there's there's fruit, there's evidence that you actually do believe. So like if you were to say like I I do love my wife, how would how would anyone know? Well, you could say, well, I've been faithful to her for this many years. Um, we go on dates, like you come up with some evidence for it, not to justify this, but you wouldn't just be like, Well, I believe it. I just, I just, I just, I just believe it in it and it it gives me comfort to know that I believe I love my wife. Like, like, uh, I don't care about what you think. Does your wife think you loved?

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Maximus the Confessor in his epistle 20 says that the uh says that a theology without practice is the is the is the theology of demons. Um and that and that and it's just it's just what you just it's just what you just said. If if the issue was we just need to think right things about God, the demons think right things about God and they hate it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

We're not saying we have we have opinions about God.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Like, well that but that but that's but that's but that's the other thing. Like these even in thinking about these creeds, the goal is not just to be the goal is not just to be right about God, the goal is to be right with God in relationship with God. Um creature. And so, hey, hey man, it's just it's just but like but that's that's that's a really important part of this discussion too, because it's really easy, especially in our conversations about theology, to be to to to think that the goal is just to be right. Yeah. And being right is a good thing because you don't you don't want to have a relationship with falsehood, but but that but that correctness is not the goal. The goal is the goal the goal is an actual encounter with the Lord, and you want that to be one that is that's fed by truth. And you and and the fact of the matter is that the truth is the truth is really profoundly is really profoundly beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Yeah. Um when we do some of our uh communicants class training of kids when they're uh um s feeling they might be ready to take the next step in their faith journey um and uh go forward for uh baptism or for communion, um, we we have them go through the class. And one of the things that I teach when I do that is uh this concept of what is faith. And kind of same questions we're we're wrestling with right here. And the illustration I give is uh faith is like uh you can look at a chair and you'll be like, Yeah, that chair holds me. Um but if you actually have faith that the chair is going to hold you, you will be willing to sit in it. Yep. But if you have any doubt that, like, ah, that maybe it's only got three legs. Um maybe, maybe that that one leg is is half sawed off. Uh you you have any doubt, you're not gonna sit in the chair. And so faith is actually putting your full weight into this. And you're saying, no, I don't just affirm that Jesus is my Lord and Savior, I'm putting my full, I'm banking everything on it. So I'm going to live as he is Lord. Um that means when when Jesus does say some things that might challenge me, I'm gonna go, nope, well, he's Lord, and I'm going to follow the where he's he's leading me, even if I don't fully understand it. Um, and then also if I'm saying he's savior, I even if I don't believe, like I'm like, man, I'm still a mess, but I'm gonna put my full weight in belief that his death was enough, that's where I think that belief comes in. Um but I want to ask as we get to not yet talk about all the things we're gonna affirm in the in the possible in the Nicene Creed, but how what's a passing grade? Can you can you disagree with any part of this?

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Oh, the Nicene Creed?

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Like if you have a 90%, you know, I I agree with 90% of it.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Yeah, I would say no.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

I would say I would say I thought we just said it doesn't matter what you believe, it's just that you believe you just gotta believe in something.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Oh no, I didn't say that at all. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I well, it's why I said before, like if you want to know like the basic things that actually it's very important that you do, like what it is actually important that you do believe, the Nice and Creed is an excellent baseline, is an excellent baseline rule of that. Um in in it, like it is it is a it is a faithful um it's a you know it's a faithful summary of some key points of who of who God is. Um and and and I think one could argue credibly that if you believe in a God that is different from this one, you do not believe in the God that actually exists. So like so it so like that that that's there it is.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

And I think what Malcolm is I think I think what you're you're you're saying though, there's there is a lot of room for us to disagree as Christians on some uh you could say secondary matters, sure, um things that are important but not salvific. Um it'd be interesting for us to go through this the this list as we go through it and go, what does disbelieving this like how does that actually blow up the faith? Um because like if if if you if you were to read the scriptures and you go like, well, I don't know if the the world was um created in six literal days, what if it was uh different? Or what what if it was a uh not a global flood? What if it was a localized again?

SPEAKER_01 41:11

None of that is in the creeds. And also you have a history of interpretation around those, around especially those things where I mean, even what just wide swathes of the church are just like, yeah, you could go either way on that. There's no need to interpret the the six days of creation as a literal or other things like that. I mean, like you can you can you can see that.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

But when we come to the nicen creed for this stuff, we're not saying you can go either way. No. I could take it or leave it. Nope. It's not good stuff. Again, we're not gonna go through the today, but I believe in God the Father is the first line. Read it.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Well, I it it it's it'll be important for people to for people to hear it, for people to hear it. Um so this is the so this is the 381,

We Believe Doubt And Faithfulness

SPEAKER_01 41:50

this is the 381 version. All right. Um and this is how this is how it goes. Uh and this is I'll read it kind of as it as it was at the council. So at the council, it's we believe because this is this is a statement of all of the bishops of the Christian church, period. Like they all get together and they're like, this is what we believe. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible, and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten, begotten of the Father before all worlds, light of light, very God of very God, begotten, not begot it begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were were were made, who for us men, for human beings, and for and for our salvation, came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again according to the scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father, and he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who who who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins, I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Amen. Amen. So we believe. We we believe we believe all of that. Um and Jesus says, Whoever believes in me has eternal life. Um if you have doubts, um we can talk through the answers to maybe responding to some certain certain lines on this as we go through this. Sure. Um but if you have doubts, uh you know, about the faith in general, I think two things I'll say is first, don't panic. Um but second, don't pretend like you don't. Because I think that's when bad things happen. And that's when you maybe paper over things and just kind of fake it till you make it and one day you fully r walk away from the Lord. I think if you are having doubts the Things that I love about scripture is how honest it is. And there are so many moments where people are shouting to God in their doubts, like, where are you? Like I don't believe you you care. I don't believe you exist. Um if you're questioning the the the resurrection, if you're questioning any of these things, say it. If you're struggling with you know, like how can a good God allow these things, say it. I think um you can please write in. Uh the would love for us to wrestle with some of these things, but I think as you say these things, um what you find is God answers those either one-on-one, or if you say it and you find some mature Christians to talk to, they actually have moments where they can speak to you. And so this is where I I wanted to kind of bring us back to with that beginning, and as Malcolm emphasized, the we part. Um the beautiful thing is that it begins with we. Um meaning that we are not the first person to ask these questions, um, which is also really accompanying as we come to these creeds. Uh, we're not the first person to wrestle with doubt or the first person, um, like we're not responsible for inventing this version of Christianity. We're going like, hey, many people have struggled around these things. The um I love the Mark Nyme uh the father um who says, I believe but help my own belief. And I just think that's the most perfect, you know, um phrase for you, maybe for this entire series. Like there's some th times when you're gonna when we will doubt, but help our own belief. So it's um you know there are times in um in marriage where you go like oh no, can we make it? But you just you keep going. You may not know the full uh how it's all gonna look out, you know, or work out. Uh there may be times um in you in your job where you're like, I don't know if I can I can I can stay here and you stick it out and some and and and and it works out, right? Like there's there's times like in our faith where we're going like I believe, but I'm not certain how this all works out. But as you stick it out and you take those one step at a time, I think you are are start seeing like, okay, the Lord has had me this whole way. So anything else you wanted to say on this, Malcolm?

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Uh let's see. Anything else about believing? No, I think I about I think I about covered it. I mean we're gonna have we're gonna have a good time going through kind of each of the clauses, yeah. Uh each of the clauses of it. Um because it also reminds us of also the range, the range of heretical thought in the history of the church. And this is I so something I I loved to do with my classes of freshmen when I taught Christian heritage, which is basically the hist just a class in the history of the church over the course of a semester, is I would um you know, I would I would give particular polls where uh just to kind of test my students' theological instincts and but also reveal to them how how many of them are unconsciously heretical, um because most people are. Um and so like, but we don't and and and and and but it's it's also really but then it's also important to remember how rich how rich our tradition how rich our tradition is and how much of the things that we say about Christ are things that roll off of our they roll off of our tongue, but the church fought for centuries to be able to say to be able to say those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Um in the very specific way that they do say them, uh with the language that is now commonplace, but um but for them, all like all these things. I mean, even just the I mean the the central statement in in the Nicene Creed is when we when Christ is referred to as begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, homo homoousios, um that that word was a significant point of debate because and this and and this is where you get the comment that like the faith can change based on and and ioda, which is the it's the it's the it's the smallest Greek Greek letter. But if but the difference between homoousios and homousios, which where you add the little I in there, is the difference between the son being of the same substance of the father and the son being of similar substance with the father. One of those is a heresy, the other is true. Um, and so uh, but even just a single letter can can can up can uproot our entire understanding of Christian salvation.

SPEAKER_03 48:24

Yeah. So and I think one of the things that I love about this creed and creeds in general, is I I think in our day today, um I think there is a hunger and a thirst that almost feels like it's responding to uh an era in the culture that was questioning everything.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

Yeah, postmodernism.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

Postmodernism, and going like, is there anything true? And you know, as we jokingly titled the the podcast, you know, why believe anything? And I think the some part like you want to break everything down to be like, yeah, like oh man, why believe anything? Like that. Who knows? That that's just your opinion. That was your experience of it.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Can't survive like that.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

And at some point people are going, like, I think people are hungry and like, actually, what do Christians believe? Because everyone I've questioned everything. And like, what at what at its basic root level do I believe? And as you know, the inception of this podcast of like, you know, trying to um we talk about deconstruct or disentangle our faith from the what's been added to it, like we're we'll di deconstruct it down to the basics. And to this series is on the basics. Um, and I think it's beautiful to finally like place your flag in the the sand or to draw a line in the sand and say, like, no, this is what I believe. And there's something freeing to finally say that, be like, no, I believe this. And that's okay not to be like, well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

I have a question. I have a question for you, Slim, as a question of further reflection on the on the creed. Because we'll, I mean, we'll we'll get to each of these clauses, but are there are there any clauses in the creed that like strike you as particularly important?

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Ah, you you hit the homoousias one.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

I was actually I have a favorite. I have a favorite. It's not it's not it's not the homousios one, but it's it's it's another clause, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

I mean, I I I think one of the things that that that just I I love the the imagery and the beauty of it is that light from light, true God from true God. That that one always sticks out to me, just like, oh, I can't wait to unpack that one.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

What about you?

SPEAKER_01 50:24

What about you? Yeah, because and and part of it is that when you know when we understand the Trinity, what what we're saying is that the Father is God in the same sense that the Son is God. Uh, that neither is more or less God than the other. Like they but that's that's but my favorite is actually um for us, for us men and for our salvation, came down, came down from heaven and was incarnated of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, because

Reading The Nicene Creed Together

SPEAKER_01 50:50

um there is a subtle distinction there. We often talk about the incarnation as though it is just for our salvation, and the creed doesn't say that. The creed says it is for us and for our salvation, which which which suggests two two distinct purposes.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

And this is who knows what those purposes are until we get to that.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Yeah, it's true. That's true. I won't I wanna break it down for you. But like, uh, but I have to, I have to give I have to I have to give a little bit of it because there are a few. So like people ask the question, and this is a question that has been debated for a while, but like the question is like, if if we had not fallen, would the son still have become incarnate? And I side I side with the folks who uh would answer that with an enthusiastic yes. Because it has it it was actually always the it was actually always the intent uh of the son of God to take on flesh in order to usher us up to where to where to where he is. Um now we we we messed stuff up and so we we had to so so that for our salvation point had to be an extra point there. But like the Lord was always gonna do this for was always gonna do this for us. Um it's just now he also has to do it for our salvation. Um and so uh but we'll we can we'll we'll get into those details when we discuss that, when we discuss that class.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

Yeah, that's good, that's good. Well, y'all, I hope you're as excited as we are about this. It was a short podcast. Look at us, look at us. Uh there's still like an hour and a half. That was like Yeah. I think uh the serious nature of this.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Slim got tired of me. That's what it was.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

I have some other news if you want me to get on to this.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

It's been a great, it's been a great podcast. Love y'all. Looking forward to seeing you next time as we continue.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Matham just took us out. No, that was if you have any questions, send uh send us an email about this, about uh other stuff. Uh hello at theologypieces.com. Um as always, like, share, review. It is the best way to help us out. This is at no charge. Uh, it doesn't hurt if you subscribe. Uh it doesn't sign you up for anything, it just helps us. And so would you uh continue to do that in the ways you're doing that? Uh we appreciate you all. We'll see you in two weeks. Thanks.