Theology In Pieces
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Theology In Pieces
85 - Maker Of Heaven And Earth...and this Podcast.
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What do Dave Ramsey, College Football, Charles Darwin, and the Nicene Creed have in common? Apparently, they’re all part of one podcast episode.
In this episode of Theology in Pieces, Slim and Malcolm continue their journey through the Nicene Creed with the words: “Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.”
But first, we have some nonsense to deal with. We talk about Dave Ramsey’s viral advice to a mother wondering whether she should disinherit her children for becoming socialists—and then turn our attention to the ugly rhetoric surrounding the racial makeup of the University of Texas student section. Yes, somehow college football helped Slim overcome his hatred of Texas.
Then we get to the real question: What does it mean to confess that God is the Maker of everything?
Does Christianity require us to believe the earth is only a few thousand years old? Can Christians affirm evolution? Is Genesis trying to give us a scientific account of creation, or something more profound? And what does it mean to say that creation exists by choice, not by chance?
We talk about why the Christian faith insists that the material world is good, why our bodies and the physical world matter, how the ancient church understood “visible and invisible” things, and why modern Christians go to 2 extremes by over-spiritualizing creation or flat out ignoring the spiritual world altogether.
Most importantly, we ask what this confession means on a Monday morning. If God really is the Maker of heaven and earth, then creation should produce wonder, humility, responsibility, hope, and a bigger imagination. We are creatures, not the center of the universe. The world belongs to God, not us. And the brokenness we see around us is not the original design...or the final word.
So yes, we talk about creation. We talk about science. We talk about evolution. We talk about angels and demons. We talk about terrible tweets. But underneath all of it is a simple confession:
“I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.”
If this conversation helps you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review. Your support helps more people find thoughtful, grounded faith in a loud, fearful world.
For more information, you can follow us at
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Email us by emailing hello@theologyinpieces.com
Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
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Welcome And Personal News
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is up, universe?
SPEAKER_00Woo! Hey, welcome to another episode of Theology Pieces, where we hope to rebuild your theology. The church, the world, or somebody has shattered pieces, and we are your host, Slim Ann. Malcolm. And Malcolm, this is we get to embody the heart of the show. Theology and pieces. We're taking big, big chunks of uh meaty stuff that uh people debate all the time. Love it. Still to this day. And we get to take chew it on small little pieces so we can uh you know see see what we're talking about here. Um so before we get to that, we have to have the most important news is the personal news, Malcolm. Yeah. Um I'll start since I know you I know you love you love burying your soul on this podcast. You have a hard time doing so. So if Brene Brown taught me anything, vulnerability begets vulnerability. So I'm gonna start and then you're gonna master it.
SPEAKER_02Slim, I'm a I'm a public figure. I can't I can't let everybody know.
SPEAKER_00So my marriage is in shampoo.
SPEAKER_02Feel like we should deal with this all vlog, Slim. Nope, nope.
SPEAKER_01This is how we get our wives to listen. We just start confessing crap.
SPEAKER_00No, uh uh, I will say I just came from uh DPS, Department of Uh Public. Oh wait, is it DPS? Safety. Safety. I was like transportation. I just came from a place that I think gave my son uh the green light to finally drive his own vehicle. So dun dun. Yeah. Dun dun dun. And that's a whole new stage of life. That is it's if I'm like so happy for him because it was just you know a lot of hard work, very proud of him. Inside, I am mourning. Oh is this what parenting is as the kids get older? It's just like the constant, like, oh, we left that stage.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Like, I'm sure you're feeling it. Desiree does this.
SPEAKER_02Desiree does this too, where she mourns every successive stage in our children's lives.
SPEAKER_01Like you, you, you, you other than that. She's got a problem with it. The other hand. Can't wait for these people to get out of the time.
SPEAKER_02I understand that that I understand that that is a thing that people mourn.
SPEAKER_01Your empathy, your bedtime matter is just off the chunk. I mean, it's a sadness. You're like, no, I'm gonna go away. Yeah, yeah. It's true. It's true. No, it's sad. No, it is. No, I'm gonna share this with someone else.
SPEAKER_02No, it's true. It is it is sad. We our children go through they go through particular stages, and once they go through one, they do move into other ones.
SPEAKER_01Describing things in the most neutral manner, acting like yes, these are you feel like it's important. These are things that's so patronizing. Yes, this could be sad if you had that problem.
SPEAKER_02If you no, I understand. No, I understand. I understand. There is a there is a grief. There's a there's a subtle, there's a subtle grief, right? Right. Um there's a there's a subtle grief to it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's that's been uh that's why you just have more children, then you can just do keep keep keep going.
SPEAKER_00So every now and then we get like I mean if you're into that, you get the baby we get the baby itch, and we're like, no, maybe. And then you're just like, already, I'm like, I need more sleep. And I think it's that that that trade-off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if you want to sleep, don't don't do the kid thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But you now I've I've I've led with the vulnerability. You match it with your vulnerability. You have you have a kid who's nobody can see this, but I'm shaking my head. Turning, turning up.
SPEAKER_02Uh turning up. My children don't turn up. They're young.
SPEAKER_00Aging in in the vertical direction.
SPEAKER_02They are. Yeah. That is that is how time works.
SPEAKER_00And how are you celebrating uh a birthday party this week?
SPEAKER_02Uh yes. My youngest has her birthday this week. Um what are we doing? They all they already had their birthday party. So they had their birthday party like weeks ago. So we're just, I'm just, I need to make it through the day. Over bird beast. It's like celebrate and be happy that it's your birthday. Great, and then we'll move on. Um, I would love to have other people like phone in.
SPEAKER_00We can have like a call in line for people to like ask Malcolm following questions about this stuff. That is what we're gonna do. It's gonna be great.
SPEAKER_02Now you're gonna find like it's like the way that I respond whenever we talk about like Mother's Day and Father's Day at uh at church and stuff. I'm like, they're not on the liturgical calendar. Why would I spend time in church? Anyway, that's not the point. Yeah. Oh, good. Love mothers, love fathers, love my children. Like that, just that's that's all clear. I want to be clear about all that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Anyway.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I I'm glad you bared your soul here. Yeah, happy to do it.
SPEAKER_01So in tune with your emotions. So in tune.
SPEAKER_00You know, I think what you need to really get some emotions out is a little bit of oh boy. These emotions may not be uh as uh friendly or as as warm feeling, fuzzy emotions. These these emotions might go in the opposite direction, a little more rage. I don't know. Oh boy. Is that where you lean towards?
SPEAKER_02No, but but because of this podcast, you you you you try to keep you try to keep me in that space, which is which is funny to me. But it's fine.
SPEAKER_00It's whatever. We're hanging out. Okay. Um we'll get we'll get progressively angry. Um this one is more of a interesting, I'm curious where you might
Disinheriting Kids Over Socialism
SPEAKER_00land. Uh recently, um one uh Dave Ramsey. Okay, world-renowned um Christian uh finance um what do we call him? Guru. Guru, um, who's got the the whole uh whole empire on how to help people Financial Peace University, baby. There it is. Um and it's been helpful for many people to get out of debt.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00Um and I've I've tried to seek through like you know, what is there another version of that? Because of the thing that I struggle with, uh Dave Ramsey, if you if you listen to the podcast, uh I it may have helped you get out of debt. So like amen to that. Yeah. Um but there is some of it that feels like the goal is agreed. Uh and leaning into that like health, wealth gospel of um if you can get enough, then you can then you can do good with that all that money. Um and so I just it feels like it, it's it's playing with it. Anyways, recently he was on a uh uh on his radio show and a woman called in and there was a big firestorm. Have you heard about the firestorm? I have not. This woman called in and said, Should I disinherit my kids from the will because they are becoming socialists?
SPEAKER_02Sorry. That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_00See, I see the emotions are there there. We just had to pull them out of you. That's hilarious, sorry. Do you think there's uh one ever a time to disinherit your kids? Oh man. That's a big question. Two, do you think socialism is is a reason to do so?
SPEAKER_02I mean, to the second, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_00Uh but to the but to the first. Wait, wait, but socialism, it's satanic.
SPEAKER_02Big fan. Um that's a bit of not a big fan of satanic things. No, somebody's gonna clip that. Um like it's satanic, big fan.
SPEAKER_01Um, anyway, and you made it even more pronounced right there. It's true, it's true.
SPEAKER_02It's fine. Um so um, so it's really interesting. Uh, when Basel Cesarea wrote his his sermon to the rich, uh, one of the things that basically he encouraged people, like he, I mean, he encouraged folks to like not leave anything to your children um because uh because you have no idea, because it it will more likely corrupt them than do them good. Uh so like in a like did now in a in a broader sense, like we we we see we think it's like a really good thing for us to build wealth in order to pass it on to our children and stuff, but also that but that's part of a broader economic logic that is not necessarily Christian. No um and but but like so I mean the fact of the matter is is that when you think about, especially when you think about things in terms of inheritance, once you're dead, you don't have any control over what happens to those resources afterwards. You can act like you have a say in it and stuff, but you you you you don't. You're dead. So like so like I know that we like like we do want to live as though we control all the things that we have in our hands and all that, like and all that kind of stuff, but but there's also a sense in which you don't have any control. But what that does indicate though is that um you know, at least for this, at least for this woman, there are some uh there are some conditions, conditions under which you can have these resources that I'm not going to be using. Um it's interesting.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't want to give either of them any money. I feel like I've worked so hard my life, I've paid for college for them, I've paid over half a million dollars for college for them, and they've turned into socialists.
SPEAKER_02Um and she was knowing that she feels terrible for wanting to withhold their inheritances, but uh they even that language, even that language suggests that like I'm pouring in all these resources because of a particular return on that investment that I'm yeah, like hoping for. I'm like, no, I'm I'm pouring into my children because I love them. And they're and and the fact is that because they are human beings who ultimately belong to the Lord, like they're gonna make decisions. Yeah, but my job as a as a as a parent and as a shepherd of my kids is just to is basically to place them, to place them in green pastures so that they can graze to set to set you know to obviously set healthy fences and boundaries, but also uh but also to equip them to be able to live, to be able to live in the world. And that's gonna cost me, it's gonna cost me a lot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'm not gonna count. I I have no interest in counting how much it does cost me because that's how it's just how love works. I'm going to pour myself out for my kids. Yeah. Like and my family.
SPEAKER_00Like that's what love is. I've got to imagine the kids have done other things that were more egregious than than saying mom Donnie uh or AOC or Bernie or whomever is a viable candidate as opposed to the other candidate. Like, I've got to imagine they've done other things that were more egregious, and that she would say, like, hey, but like that's when you're counting the the sins against people. What did Dave say? You ready? You ready? He says, She says, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm feeling nervous about withholding the inheritances, and he responds, you shouldn't. My children have been instructed since they were small that in order to get the opportunity to manage the money that God gave me to manage, they will have to be people of character. Socialists are not people of character, they're parasites. Gosh. Nice. So nice. He says, if my kids aren't walking with God, they don't get to manage God's money. Wow.
SPEAKER_02So uh socialist socialists not walking with God. I love it. I love that a commitment to Christ necessarily requires a commitment to to to unfettered capitalism. That's that's awesome. Love that. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot. This deserves a whole other episode, right? Like that's that's that's intense. But there is so there was something about that that was like, that's an interesting question. Um you know, I I I on one hand going, amen, let's not hold the the you know, the sins. Like I'm I we put money aside for our kids, you know, so that they can go to college, right? Like, and then I'm not even thinking down.
SPEAKER_02Especially with the cost of college and stuff. Like you, you, you ain't coming out of the gate with that kind of money.
SPEAKER_00And there's times when uh some of my kids uh that might have been a little uh rough around the edges. I've we we we've thought, what well, do they deserve it? And you go, no, this is what this is dedicated towards, regardless. Um so we're not in the same boat as like the will. Um but there's part of that you're like, well, like how do you is there is there some times when like if it is a will or we're like, hey, you know what? I was gonna set this aside, but like the person let's say that your your your child is not just a socialist, let's say it's something more egregious. Sure. Um maybe they're in jail for life, uh for murder or something. You're like, you know what? Maybe this money could be used to I'll give it to you know this nonprofit or whatnot.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I mean it won't help them in it won't help them in prison.
SPEAKER_00So there's like things like that I'm like, hey, I think there's times to consider that. I don't know. Maybe it's something to chew a little more on. But I I saw that and I was like, that's an interesting I socialism was a thing that was just so shocking as like the reason. And they're like, they're parasites.
SPEAKER_03Oh intense.
SPEAKER_00Um that that was that that was a more of a an interesting
A Viral Tweet And Open Racism
SPEAKER_00one. But the one that that that I'll be honest, my blood was boiled this weekend with rage.
SPEAKER_02Okay, rage, okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, over the wrong things.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So Malcolm, you follow college football very well, don't you?
SPEAKER_02Uh, you know, on occasion.
SPEAKER_00So University of Texas took on uh Ohio State. Ohio State came to Texas.
SPEAKER_02I heard this game was there was a comeback.
SPEAKER_00It was it was an it was a great comeback if you're a Texas fan, if you're from Ohio, which I where I was born, I was rooting for Ohio State, as well as I'm an Aggie and AM, and so I'm you know, just by like default rooting against Texas. Sure. They make the comeback, the world is set on fire, like everyone's like, crown them now, and I'm just like, this is sucks. Like, Arch is gonna win the Heisman, they're gonna be the number one team in the nation, their recruiting's gonna be unstoppable as much as it already is. And I'm just like, I'm like in a bad mood. Even by team one, though, by like like four touchdowns, like I'm still like in a bad mood.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Until until this tweet, this is from uh Bo French. Do you have you heard about this tweet? It's kind of gone viral.
SPEAKER_02I think I I think I might have heard about this.
SPEAKER_00He's a uh Republican nominee for the Texas Railroad Commission. Yeah. And he has this picture of the Texas student section uh with uh many brown skinned uh students in it right now. You could say some are uh um South Asian, um some are Hispanic, whatever right and he says in his tweet, I heard UT graduation this year looked like this. I didn't believe it. The problem is now obviously worse, far worse than anyone imagined. Oh gosh. He is going off on the racial makeup of this. And I I expected to see this and then to look at uh the responses and to see people like, hey, this is this is racism, all of this, and everyone's like, yeah, that's right. That's why we have to care. Then uh Megum Basham, you know, everyone's f friend, says approximately 30% of the University of Texas graduate doctoral students are not American citizens. We can debate screenshots of particular areas of stadium on game day, but that proportion of international students is too high.
SPEAKER_02The problem is now obviously far worse than anyone imagined.
SPEAKER_00It is it's wild. So what is what what what's he saying there? We have too many brown skinned people? It's not even like hidden, it's not a dog whistle, it's explicit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he just said social media is exposing how many Americans have been displaced by foreigners.
SPEAKER_00Displacement theory right there. And here's the thing there's there's so many times, and even uh JD Vance, our vice president at this uh you know Trumbapalooza thing that happened recently, said don't call us racists. Um and then you have this guy who's running for state in Texas with such an explicitly racist tweet, and no one's condemning it. Well, it's funny because uh John Corny said something, but you know what? He could have condemned some of these things a long time ago when he had power. Now that he has zero power, he says barely, barely like will any Republican uh senators condemn this.
SPEAKER_02Greg Abbott, Greg Abbott kind of did too. He said he said it this is not this is not my message. A selective picture of Longhorn fans celebrating our biggest home victory ever actually shows a way that Texans unite.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So you know, so some people here's the thing. Bo French, I just want to go on record because I know you listen to this podcast. Yeah, I want to say thank you for helping me uh get over my anger towards Texas winning. I actually am like, good, way to go. I want Texas to go on and win it all now.
SPEAKER_01I'm like weirdly, like pro-Texas because of this. It was like it reminded me like there's things that matter far more than what jersey you wear.
SPEAKER_00I'm like, this is the most racist crap ever. It is. It is all of a sudden. I'm now on the Archmanning train.
SPEAKER_02All right.
SPEAKER_00Well, is that you know? I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Whatever fully go there. Whatever. But I actually I was like you to say a little bit. But I was like, this is like you see this picture of these, they're just excited. They're ju Jubilee people who you're saying like you're saying, hey, do the hard work.
SPEAKER_00Do the hard work, we won't deport you. Like, be the good. It's it's it's the worst. It's gross. So uh Malcolm, I don't know. Your emotion didn't get up there. Mine was there. I know.
SPEAKER_02But that's it's it's fine. I just at this point.
Nicene Creed Line By Line
SPEAKER_00All right. All right, well, we've we've had enough nonsense. Uh we're gonna have a shorter episode here today. Um we have uh all the good, you know, the the important news of the day and things like that uh in nonsense. Uh but we we are what we are doing here, we are in the middle of a series on the Nicene Creed. Uh circa 381. Uh the Nicene Creed. And uh we've been going at it bit by bit, theology in pieces, and we did We Believe and just uh started there and then in One God, Father Almighty, talked about you know the God, gender, things like that. But today we were talking about the maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. Fire. Woo! So fire. The real question is did Darwin have a point? I I don't I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Uh I don't think that's I don't I don't even think that's I that's even in view. So it's so it's interesting that in the uh in the 325 version, um it's it's we believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible. And then uh and then in 381 they kind of add maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible. Um I think there's there is this something that is I think central to central to the Christian faith is that the universe exists by choice, not by chance. No so it is it is that
Creation Is Good Against Gnosticism
SPEAKER_02and and and and one of the and and an important element of that is that that also shapes our ethic of how we treat the rest of creation too. So uh so when I see things, whether in the natural world or whether I see my uh my fellow human beings, the purpose of all of those things is actually to refocus my contemplation on the God who created them. And like, and that's like that's also integral, it's also integral to Christian spirituality, that we recognize that everything that we see around us is actually a gift, is actually a gift from from God. Um and so so that's so that's one of the reasons it's there at the beginning of this um of this creed, but also because one of the one of the most uh uh persistent Christian heresies is uh is Gnosticism or Docetism, where um where where where there's this this assumption that the material world is evil. And so the goal is for us to escape. The goal is for us to escape from it. And um and and and and and there were a few uh heresies of the early church where where they would they would frame there are there are like other there are other deities that created that created the world, but the but God, the father of the Father of Jesus Christ, is meant to kind of free us, free us from that world. Um and one of the things that the church wants to emphasize is that in saying we believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things, uh make maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible, we're saying, no, no, no, like there's only one God, and that and that, and that God is the God who created everything. Um and so, yeah, so in thinking of just kind of core core Christian beliefs, that that that does lie at the core that we believe that the universe was created uh by choice, not by chance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I think just word by word here that you have that God made everything, so God maker of heaven. Earth um the creation that I think what it is emphasizing Christianity um very much is emphasizing that your body really does matter. The physical world does matter, uh created heaven and earth, the physical things as well. So it's visible and invisible, emphasizing that God created everything. Yeah, so God is like Genesis 1 begins in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Sometimes you think the heaven, heaven and hell. And it says heavens and earth. And so we you know, God makes light, land, oceans, plants, stars, animals, and human beings, and ever every time it says it is good. And so I think emphasizing that bodies matter, food matters, water matters, trees matter, all these things, right? Like our our physical existence matters. Um that goes against some of the the um um spiritualization of this, that God actually cares about those things, which I think is really important when we do think like this could be a whole other podcast on heaven. Like this is God created Sure, we could have that conversation, heaven and earth. And you're going, Well, I thought I thought I thought hell was the opposite of heaven. And you're going, well, what does it mean that God created heavens? I thought that's like that always existed. That's where we go. That's the eternity space that we go to. And he created the heavens. I think it's is referring to the stars and the galaxies, and then he created the earth, right?
SPEAKER_02And of all things, and it's also why it's important of all things, visible and invisible, there is always, whenever, especially the early church thinks about cosmology, you're also thinking about the angels, like you're also thinking about the spiritual world as well. So I've so for a lot of us, like that seems, you know, that seems weird and stuff, but for but for m essentially the entirety of Christian history, like angels, angels and and demons are always a part of the way that we think about the world, the way the world functions too. And so, um, and so everything that and and everything that God created, he created as good. But over the course of time, we've seen we've seen corruption, we've seen corruption of these things. We've seen corruption of humanity, demons are corrupted, are corrupted angels, all these, all these kinds of things. But this is but this is a this is a base affirmation that all things as created are good because they come from a good, because they're because they're created by a good God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah,
Genesis, Genre, And Six Days
SPEAKER_00yeah. And so that that goes into, and this is where I I'm I'm I don't even know where you land, Malcolm. So this is uh this is good. This is uh on the spot, revealing.
SPEAKER_02Because you like doing this.
SPEAKER_00Where where do you land on the the major views of creation? So God created all things in the span of six days, yes, and all very good.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00But are six days six literal twenty-four-hour days? Or is each day a thousand years or a million years?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I um do you follow science or do you follow scripture?
SPEAKER_02It's funny, Malcolm. It's funny because I not only do I not know, but I don't particularly care. I get off the channel. I think I think the early church, especially, like people have grown like people in the church have always been very comfortable with seeing um uh especially the first 11 chapters of Genesis as um as a as telling a particular as telling a particular kind of story. So I think about um it's Basil Caesarea uh who has the Hexameron where he where it's all about kind of the six days of creation. Um and and there are and there are elements of it that you know that don't fit with a particular naturalistic interpretation. So for so for example, light, light shows up, uh light shows up before before the sun.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02And all these things like that. And so and so people who kind of want to turn this into this is this is the other issue. Like people want to treat the scriptures like a like a like a scientific document. And so you then you then submit it to uh you you submit it to the standards of modern science. So for example, you'll you'll you'll you'll see in uh in Joshua when uh when the sun stands when the sun stands still in the uh uh in the sky during uh during one of their battles, and like and people will be like, well, the sun doesn't move. So clearly this is well, yeah, because it's being described phenomenologically. Like the it the the what what they're seeing is the sun standing still. You don't see the sun, you don't see the earth move. Yeah. Yeah but like but it's that but it's that it's that kind of thing. Paired with that, like, well, and this could get into get get into other stuff. Um, but if you take the traditional uh mosaic uh a mosaic authorship of the um of the Pentateuch, like this is our official uh authorship in the church. But like but but but but the idea is like nobody is around, nobody's around for those for those six days. Uh so nobody so the only way that the only way that the author knows is if it's is if it's revealed to them to the to them by God. Um and and the purpose of that story is not uh the purpose of that uh of that narrative is not to um is not to kind of lay out a like a a super precise uh a super a super precise description of the ways in which God made those things. The the the main thing to press is that God is that God is the one who does it, and also that God does it absent of conflict. So one of the one of the um one of the primary themes of ancient near it near Near Eastern um uh creation stories is that like the world is created out of conflict between the gods. And and that's the milieu in which in which Genesis is is is being inserted. And so one of the things that the Lord is saying in this in this text is that the Lord doesn't have to fight with anybody to create the world. The Lord is speak just by the Lord's word, the the the the um uh the world is created. And that and and those those kinds of things, the power, the power of the word of God, um, God's love for his creation, the fact that the things that he creates are good, all of these are all of these are based Christian assumptions that then end up shaping the story that you read for the rest of for the rest of the scriptures. Yeah. Um so but all that's to say, like if new if these new scientific discoveries help us to heal disease and all that kind of stuff, cool, love that. But I also want us to be aware of the kinds of assumptions, um, of the kinds of assumptions that may attempt to creep in as a result of those things too. So like if we if we come to assume that the world that we live in is just purely a mechanistic one that operates by these particular, that that that just operates just by these particular laws and all the and all that kind of stuff, especially by chance, then that that that first of all, that can breed a kind of crippling fear because everything that because there's no reason for anything that happened in the world, things like that. Um, but it also reduces, but it also in a in in a certain way kind of reduces our responsibility to that world too. Like I said, it was why it's really important to me to emphasize that the world is created by choice, not by chance, because um, you know, we we we we we need to be reminded that everything in creation points back to like its purpose is to point back to the creator. Um that's that's that's something that I think is really important for the Christian to always
Science, Chance, And Christian Fear
SPEAKER_02remember.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, whenever I I I think about the the views of creation, this be this was used as a uh a Rorschach test to decide whether you are a godless liberal, a godless liberal, or you uh hold the orthodox view and you are you know you actually believe the Bible. Um and I I was there, I understood it, um, and I I I I I I was a part of that because there was a part of me that's going, well, if the Bible says something and you go, Well, that's not right, I think you are an error. Um if if the Bible says that God created the world and you said no, he didn't, yeah, you I think you are an error. And sometimes when we hear that there's other views of creation, it feels like that. It feels like we're saying we're going to contradict the Bible. Um but I do think it's helpful to say, well, there are times in scripture where it's uh in the Psalms, there's there's poetry describing the the sun like that, or there's there's times that the days, uh, you know, a thousand years and things like that, that you go, okay, this is a song, this is a poetry describing something, and you would not take it literally. And I I I get the the desire to say literally means taking something seriously. But if you did take something seriously, if I took uh my my uh my son's letters to me or wife's letters to me, and if I took them seriously, I'm gonna see it it from the voice that the in the way it was written. Um if I'm I'm reading uh a song that I th I find beautiful, I'm gonna see it in the the beauty and the truth that's there without saying like this is telling me how I should live X, Y, and Z. Like I you have to read it in its context, in its genre. And if it's if Genesis 1 and 2 uh is poetry, which there are many theologians that would argue it is, that's very different from the rest of Genesis, um, describing some, you know, the the history, then that changes how we view it. That that absolutely has to change it. And so I get like why I would have held to a young earth six-day, 24 hour literal hour. And I still think we should leave that room open to say, like, I I would affirm God created the the world in six days and all very good without saying anything different and saying what does six days mean. And the other thing is like okay because that's what scripture affirms.
SPEAKER_02And also you and and you just and you just did it, you you you linked that to a particular to a young earth view. And the fact of the matter is that nothing there is nothing in the scriptures that says anything about the age of the earth. Right. That becomes a question later that people then want to use the scriptures in order to answer that particular question. But like the Bible is not concerned with that question. And that and that's the and that's the thing. We we we often make the mistake of asking the scriptures to answer questions that it was never meant to, it was never intended to answer. And that's how people get into weird, so people get into weird stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, because everybody's got their own questions, and then they think that the scriptures are going to answer all those questions when really the scriptures end up offering a different set of questions and then telling you, hey, actually these things actually ought to be your questions.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and this is why it's yeah, if you treated it like a textbook, a science book, then that's how we get the arc encounter uh that's in Kentucky. Have you ever been? No, I haven't. I I think we should all go and like have like a a live podcast about it.
SPEAKER_02Love that. Love that for us.
SPEAKER_00Just to experience when you take something here and go, is this literal? Um, again, there are things that are literal in the in the scriptures. You I think we just have to have the do the hard work and discernment of going, what is and what isn't? And then going, now what does that mean? Because I don't think we come to this because the world came to us and said, Hey, no, the earth is four or six billion years old or whatever, um, and then we shifted our views. I agree, that's that's the wrong way to go about it. But if scripture is saying saying one thing with the poetry involved, then you have to say, Oh, maybe I'm not interpreting it through this lens. So I just think it's helpful because then right now, I think if there is a dichotomy, people say, Do you believe scripture or do you believe science? And science says the world is four billion years old or six billion years old. And if that's the case, then that's different than six thousand years old, which is what six literal twenty-four-hour days would be. Again. Or at least that's what people think.
SPEAKER_02That's what people ballpark think. That's how that works.
Evolution Questions Without Panic
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, I mean, I'm saying just like people think that that's how that people think that that's how that works. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um Do you think this leaves open the room for a Christian evolution? I mean, some people would hold on.
SPEAKER_02I think it's like, is it is it C.S. Lewis? I'm trying to think who some people who take the kind of theistic evolution route or whatever. Um yeah, I I'm ambivalent about that.
SPEAKER_03Um generally.
SPEAKER_02I'm I'm generally ambivalent about about a number about a number of these things. Uh because I uh, you know, one of my favorite, I was a math science and computer science guy through like middle school and high school. Um and and like genetics was some of my favorite, just like some of my favorite coursework and stuff. Um and so I love, I love, I love all that stuff. And also like science is never something for the Christian, science is never something for the Christian to be afraid of. It's something that we ought to be um uh kind of enthusiastically in support of of learning about learning about the world around us um and the ways and the way that and the ways that things that things work. Um and so uh I always encourage that kind of exploration.
SPEAKER_00I'll say it that way. Amen. God is the ultimate creator of everything that exists, and all truth is God's truth. Creation is good, and let's let's learn about his creation. I think the the study of these the cells and going into the you know the details with atoms, um you're you're going, life is becoming more and more complex. You start realizing like how creative our creator is. And so, yes, we I would love more Christian scientists to help us understand God's beautiful creation here. Um Is there evolution? Amen. There's always there is evolution. It's the macro versus micro evolution that you have to say, like, well, what what what what is happening here? Um but I think with your I'm with you on the point of the ambivalent of going I don't know, but I don't stake my my faith claim on that because I don't think it's the scripture is trying to make one argument over the other.
SPEAKER_02I'll say one thing for sure. Uh I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of the maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
SPEAKER_00Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02I'll say that for sure.
SPEAKER_00And I know we need to we need to wrap it up.
Visible And Invisible Powers
SPEAKER_00Um, but uh I think the emphasis, we've we've emphasized the creation of all things visible. We've talked about creation. I do think we, as maybe my strain uh of tradition underemphasizes the invisible.
SPEAKER_02Oh, for sure. We I love talking about the demons.
SPEAKER_00Malcolm, big demon fan. There's there's certain demon hunters out there. Malcolm, big fan. Uh I I do think that's something that there are certain circles that maybe over-emphasize and spiritualize things to say, like, oh, that's spiritual warfare. You're like, no, it's called sin. Um, but there are there's other circles that never consider the the principalities and powers of this world that you go, this is what Jesus came to to overturn with his coming and his death and resurrection. I mean that that is that's Colossians. That's that's all there. That I do think we have to go, like, do I believe that? That there is a so when I'm fighting against these powers and principalities, sometimes I I just fight in my own effort. And I need to be reminded that this only this kind only is cast out through prayer and fasting. And to be reminded that like there's a there's a there's another universe out there.
SPEAKER_02So every day.
SPEAKER_00Do we do we believe that? We say it in our Nicene Creed. I believe it. Do we, do we, do we? So why does any of this matter today?
Wonder, Humility, Stewardship, Hope
SPEAKER_00Um let's bring it down to earth. Why why does this matter? What difference does the creed make on a Monday morning? Um let me just give you a couple things. I think one, it gives us wonder. Um, you know, the God's created this world and the world isn't boring. Um we are surrounded by things God has made. You know, a sunset, a child laughing. Go look at some galaxies. It's beautiful. Um, even a even a meal. You can see the beauty. This is what God has provided us. That's why we say grace and thanksgiving, right? Music. These are things that God and the creation should produce wonder. Um it also should give us humility. We are part of that creation. We are creatures. We don't know everything, we don't control everything, we aren't the center of the universe. I think another important thing is it should give us responsibility. Uh if the world belongs to God, then we don't we do not get to treat it however we want. Um we are stewards, we get to cultivate, we get to protect, we get to care and love our neighbors, uh, and that that's that's part of our role here in tending the garden as uh the creation account has us doing. Um it should also give us hope. Um, you know that the the brokenness the isn't the original design um and it is not the final word. Um but lastly, just it God is creator, it should give us a bigger imagination, um, of things visible and invisible, that there is more happening than what we can see, and God is at work in ways we can't always perceive. And so faithful Christianity means learning to live with confidence in a reality larger than our senses. And I think that's particularly important in the connecting to the world that we are living in right now, where we're surrounded by uh technology um that it seems to be uh out of control and potentially going to destroy the world. Um, and we are seeing all the things that are that are out of our um grips of you know contributing to and out of our control, and to be reminded that there is a creator of galaxies um and of one who holds the inside of a cell together, that um there is not just artificial intelligence, there is a intelligent designer who actually cares about this world. And it is a reminder for us to lean in and trust in the beautiful imagination of our God. Um so maker of heaven and earth of all things, everything visible and invisible.
Listener Questions And What’s Next
SPEAKER_00Uh we we today was a we're breaching the service on this. Uh there's probably a hundred things you might have questions about. So please type in those questions, write those questions in. We'd love to we'd love to follow up with those. Um we love having this the this discussion through the Nicene Creed. We're gonna take it nice and slow. Jesus is next. Jesus is next. You know that's gonna be fire.
SPEAKER_02Jesus, Jesus,
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SPEAKER_02Jesus.
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