Theology In Pieces
Join Slim Thompson, Malcolm Foley and many more to discuss and 'Apply the Gospel' into little bite sized pieces every week. email hello@theologyinpieces.com to ask questions or reach out.
Theology In Pieces
89 - Blue Waves, Big Surprises, and the God Who Is for Us
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Something is off when Christians talk like an election result means God is losing. We open with truly shocking moments, including a pastoral visit that that gets dangerous, then we zoom out to the bigger problem: how Christian influencers and pastors are melting down over last week's election news.
We hear from:
Forrest Frank: "we're gonna trans your kids so bad."
Allie Beth Stuckey - “Anyone who believes this is going to hell”
Jack Hibbs - the Repuplic is over
James Talarico's Acceptance Speach
Republican Women Caucus Fund - Anti Trans fliers.
Then we come back to what steadies us, the Nicene Creed. We focus on the line “for us and for our salvation,” and why it matters that Jesus became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, suffered, and was buried. We dig into a deep question with real pastoral weight: would Christ have become human even if Adam never sinned, and what does that say about God’s plan for humanity, love, and union with God? We keep it grounded in history, real flesh, and real hope.
If this helped you breathe again, subscribe, share the episode with a friend who sees things differently, and leave a rating and review so more people can find Theology And Pieces.
Nicene Creed :
We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.
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Malcolm Foley - on twitter @MalcolmBFoley
Slim Thompson on twitter @wacoslim
For more information on the church,
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Cold Open And Host Catch-Up
SPEAKER_13Hey, hey, hey.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. Uh-huh. You hear the crickets? Yeah, I do hear the crickets. I do.
SPEAKER_13What a way to begin it.
SPEAKER_10I do.
SPEAKER_12Hello, world. Hey. Uh, welcome to Theology Pieces, uh, where we hope to rebuild your theology that the somebody, the world or the church, has shattered to pieces. I messed that up. But uh either way, we are your host, Slim End.
SPEAKER_09Malcolm.
SPEAKER_12Malcolm, good to have you back.
SPEAKER_09It's good to be back.
SPEAKER_12It's been too long. It's actually not. It's been we're on our every other week thing.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, but like apparently you put out this like two-hour podcast that doesn't have any of me in it. So you've heard. Uh that's what people tell me. People who actually listen to our podcast. I don't know.
SPEAKER_12Word of the street is it's the it's the it's the most popular of all of our podcasts.
SPEAKER_09Uh that would make sense.
SPEAKER_12Someone came up to me and was like, sir, sir. This this this podcast is gold. And I I I don't know. I don't know how to respond to it.
SPEAKER_09You can take all the credit. You can take all the credit, Slim. All the credit is yours, my brother. All the credit is yours.
SPEAKER_12How are you doing?
SPEAKER_09I'm doing I'm doing all right, bro.
SPEAKER_12You feel you feeling good these days?
SPEAKER_09I'm just I'm just I'm just out here. Just out here. Just out here.
SPEAKER_12Just out here. Um yeah, let's put you on the spot. So I'm I'm assuming you also listened to that that episode, right?
SPEAKER_10No, I actually haven't. You know.
SPEAKER_05I was like, I there's no point.
SPEAKER_09Well, but I I actually, but I mean, actually though, I really do want to. I mean, like, actually, I'm going to it'll be fine. You know, like no, I really do because I I want to know. I want to listen to how you uh just to um how you how you navigate uh those particular spaces. So I really do. Actually, like from now on, my car rides my car rides are gonna be listening, listening to that podcast. It'll take I mean it's two hours, so it'll take it's long, it'll take some time.
SPEAKER_13So I was like, yeah, let's tag something on the front end and the back end to the conversation. Why not?
SPEAKER_12Because there's no limits here. Um well besides that, um Malcolm, what was would you say is some of the most shocking news that you've heard in the last couple weeks, or uh personally,
Election Shocks And Expectations
SPEAKER_12anything that's surprised you for good shocking news for bad.
SPEAKER_09Shocking news. See, I'm I I have a uh I'm having less and less of a relationship with the news in general.
SPEAKER_12Maybe not news, maybe just like something that's surprised you something something that surprised you something that that changed your expectations. You thought one thing, something different. You're you you're you your daughter said, here's something awesome, and you're like, oh, it's probably gonna suck.
SPEAKER_13But it was actually beautiful.
SPEAKER_08Everything my children do is wonderful, Slim.
SPEAKER_09Um it's it's it's interesting uh the uh significant increase of democratic political leadership in this country as a result of shocking. So shocking. So that's the thing. I mean, like, there's a sense in which it shouldn't necessarily be shocking because when you have um a particular party that's been in charge for a little while, the these these kinds of switch ups, these kinds of switch-ups happen. But yeah, um, but this was a pretty it was a pretty significant route for the uh for the for the Republicans this this this this go-round.
SPEAKER_12So that was that I mean I felt like all the uh the online stuff said that things were trending this way, but everyone's like, well, last time the the the polls have been wrong. And so no one I think everyone was on pins and needles and going like, but maybe there's hope. Um if you were rooting one way or the other.
SPEAKER_09Um the the Republicans got belt built to behind Say what you want to say.
SPEAKER_08I'm a pastor and this is a podcast.
SPEAKER_12But you know, it was it was uh I think Talla Rico wasn't so as shocking, although it it's you know historic. Yeah. Um but I think down the ticket uh for Texas was was very shocking with you know Gina Hinosa. That was like, what? Like Yeah, I didn't think that was gonna happen. The you know, the lieutenant governor, the attorney general down the line. It was that was that was definitely shocking. Um but uh let
Pastoral Visit Ends In A Bite
SPEAKER_12me tell you something that was shocking to me yesterday.
SPEAKER_09What was shocking to you, Slim. What was shocking to you, Slo.
SPEAKER_12So I won't say who I went to visit, but uh, you know, as pastors, we go on these pastoral visits and you know go to our people at our congregation. And uh went to uh uh one of our our our folks' house who told me ahead of time, and this is one of the reasons I went to visit them, was they said they've gotten they've got a new dog, and then they just they love their dog, and uh this person um you know they they're they're with a dog all day, and so like the dogs just brought them so much joy. But the dog is a six-year-old Great Dane. Oh my gosh. And I've seen you know, like Great Danes from afar, I've seen them on TV, and you're like, yeah, they're big.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_12Um my gosh. I don't know if I was prepared. I know I definitely was not prepared for for meeting this dog or for what happened when I met the dog, but um, but uh the this person said that hey, he's he's very territorial. Oh no. So just uh a heads up no do not go to the house and ring the doorbell, or he it will make it'll make him mad. And I was like, okay. Oh god.
SPEAKER_08I park. I'm not coming to your house. Just so if you have a great anybody, anybody, if you got if you have a large animal, I'm not I'm just probably not gonna come here. I mean, my girls are already afraid of dogs, so like that. This story will not help. Uh look, they they just won't hear it. That's fine.
SPEAKER_05This story will not help.
SPEAKER_12So I I I park and uh I text him, say, hey, I'm here, and he's not coming out. So I call, then finally he comes out. Um, but uh the angle at where I'm at, I'm I'm uh I'm I'm on the on on the front lawn, he opens the door and there's kind of a bush in front of the door, uh, you know, a little stair down to get to it. And so I just see him and he's like, Oh hey, Slim. And I was like, oh hey. And in that like two-second, you know, hey, hey response there, all I do, I I I hear from behind me, so I'm facing the house. Oh no!
SPEAKER_13I hear from behind me this deep, oh no, the dog, the great ding came out from the house and sprinted behind me and got behind me and started barking.
SPEAKER_12And I mean, I'm what five's nine? Oh my god. This thing is like up to my chin, and it's it's like a six foot or whatever.
SPEAKER_13It's it's a very, very large. It's so big. Oh my god. I was not ready for this. It sprinted behind you, so it's super agile, but it's so like this is where I'm like, this is like a lion. It's you people say they're like horses. I'm in my car at that point, bro.
SPEAKER_12It is it was a lion. It was a lion. No. Because the way it pranced around, and then you know, so it barks, and I and I step back and then it it attacks. And so then it jumps at my leg and like you know, teeth on my on my leg. Oh man.
SPEAKER_13Oh no, no, I'm pushing off, and then you know this guy he gets the dog off quickly, and so like and he's like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Are you okay? And I was like, I was like, Yeah, that's fine. I'm okay, dude.
SPEAKER_08Traumatized the rest of my life at the time.
SPEAKER_13And he's like, he's like, are you sure? And then I looked down and like I was wearing like khaki pants, and I was like, Yeah, that's okay, just a little toy tear. And then you start to see like the blood start to absorb into the khaki, and I was like, Oh, this is more serious than I thought. I was like, shoot, yeah, we should probably address that.
SPEAKER_12No, so we got bandages and oh my god, cleaned it up.
SPEAKER_13Um
SPEAKER_10Bro.
SPEAKER_12What like
SPEAKER_13I am never on a pastoral visit, had no fear for my nope, nope.
SPEAKER_08That's not true.
SPEAKER_13Um that's another story. Uh but but the dog felt so bad.
SPEAKER_12Uh-huh. The dog felt so bad afterwards because he had been told that you know I'm a friendly. And we go inside to clean it up, but also to to hang out because I'm committed.
SPEAKER_10Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_12And the dog just kept coming back to like basically say sorry. And so it was like leaning into me. I was like, like, oh, I'm like, you could tell it felt bad. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_13But it's so large.
SPEAKER_12And I'm sitting down and now it's like face to face with me. And I'm like, I do not trust you. But like I I could tell you're trying to feel bad, but also like if I make one sudden movement or if I pet you in the wrong way, because I've had that with dogs before, if you pet the wrong way. And I'm like, if this dog snaps at me, it's not a small bite. Like, this could bite my face off.
SPEAKER_09Look, I'm just this is why most of my at least up to close interaction with animals, I will wait until the new heavens and new earth.
SPEAKER_08When when I when when I after my after my body and soul have been fully redeemed and I have control over all of them, then we can interact. Until then, I it's it's risk at this point.
SPEAKER_13That was that was shocking.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. Uh-huh. That sounds all right. Goodness gracious, man.
SPEAKER_12Yeah, that was rough.
SPEAKER_08That was rough. That's wild.
SPEAKER_12Um, I I don't know if you guys came
Mailbag Plans And How To Reach Us
SPEAKER_12here to l to listen to these stories. Um of course they did.
SPEAKER_09They came to hang out with us.
SPEAKER_12That's why some of y'all have been writing uh mail in, and we've got it, we've got to hit the mailbag, but you know, I'm not prepped for that. So next time we will be looking at the mailbag. So if you do have mail, don't worry, we are reading it. Uh, we're just yet to respond to it. Um, but hello at theologyandpieces.com, or you can uh hit the message there. Um and as always, you know, liking, rating, reviewing, um, we're gonna check at those as well. Um, but if you didn't come for the the shocking stories, we know you also come for the
SPEAKER_08Terrible tweets.
Viral Christian Politics And Trolling
SPEAKER_08Dun dun dun.
SPEAKER_12Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Or the seek the part of our podcast where Slim finds things that he thinks are gonna make Malcolm upset.
SPEAKER_11Part of the podcast with Slim thinks he's gonna make Malcolm upset.
SPEAKER_12Uh and this doesn't have the say the same rig. Yeah, yeah. It's not it's not as punchy. Um, so let's see. Um Malcolm, yes, you like music, right?
SPEAKER_09I do. On occasion.
SPEAKER_12Do you like Christian music? Are you a big Christian music?
SPEAKER_09Uh I mean like gospel and like chance.
SPEAKER_07Gregorian chat, Byzantine child.
SPEAKER_12Actually, it was like chance the rapper? Yeah, me too. I was 100% in the opposite direction there. I was like, yeah, he's good. It's fine. It's fine. Um well that have you heard of the uh Christian artist Forrest Frank? Yes. Um, my boys love his, you know, we've introduced very, very happy um, you know, Christian music. Yes. Um, I think he's from from Waco. Um and uh he he's he's he's relatively large these days. He's he's got seven million Instagram followers. Um he put out a video after the election. Um and I just wanted to see what you think about it.
SPEAKER_06Okay. I'm probably gonna lose so many followers for this.
SPEAKER_09Okay, first of all.
SPEAKER_05Yep, I save, save. I paused it.
SPEAKER_13That was the beginning of his video after Charlie Kirk was shot. Two seconds.
SPEAKER_08First of all. Probably gonna lose before we get any further into this video.
SPEAKER_12I feel like when you say that, you are inviting people to follow you more.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_12It's like the false humility, like, no, no, I'm fine.
SPEAKER_06And I try to stay out of politics, but do you sometimes I feel like it's important to speak up. Got on social media, and my feed was Do you notice the the music coming in?
SPEAKER_11No.
SPEAKER_06And it was stuff like we're gonna invent new genders you haven't even imagined yet. 30,000 likes on that. We're gonna trans your kids so bad. 46,000 likes. Throw his Amex down at the abortion clinic. Keep the tab open. Guys, this is you don't want to mess around with this. Do not mess around with God, do not mess around with the family. The final verse in the Old Testament reads as this He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to the fathers. Otherwise, I will destroy the land. If we lose the family, we lose everything. I want to do two things.
SPEAKER_12One, okay, well, pause real quick. He is responding to these tweets sent to him that say we're gonna trans. your trans your kids so
SPEAKER_05I'm sorry. I know, I know, I know. I'm sorry, because it's just funny.
SPEAKER_12I don't understand how he doesn't see this was all complete trolling and that we're gonna throw the Amex card down at the abortion clay. Like, yeah, okay, like there are some things, yes, you should not be making these jokes.
SPEAKER_09Right, right.
SPEAKER_12And and as Christians, should we ever troll anyone? I don't think so. It seems also a a version of not loving your neighbor. Yeah, sure. So but when it happens in the world, and let's say those people aren't Christians who are doing this to him, yeah, like you you don't respond as if this is real.
SPEAKER_08We're gonna invent gender, we're gonna invent genders.
SPEAKER_09The fact that he thinks this is real, it's very clear, it's very clear that they're playing off of that they're playing off of the kind of rhetoric that was poised against the left.
SPEAKER_12It's I mean, for the last kind of several years, that they're just like it's just uh it's it was it was very much like you you were saying this bad thing would happen if the Democrats win. So the Democrats at have won the mid midterm elections, yeah, uh, by all accounts. Um, and then he gets people saying these things, then he's like, with the the the emotional manipulation manipulative music in the background. We can't lose the family. We can't lose the family. So then he quotes Malachi 4-6 uh about you know heart hearts of fathers turning towards their children, children to their fathers, this beautiful passage about reconciliation and restoration. Um, but it's also in this the context of God's judgment um and this prophetic call to turn back to God. Yeah, and he quotes this, and I'm not saying I don't know who he voted for, and I'm not saying, but the fact that the results of this election made him feel like that we are now uh now, now our families are being torn apart. When the let's just looking at the the Texas election of Talerico versus Ken Paxton, Ken Paxton was openly like cheating on his wife uh on on the second or third wife. Like we have we have the president in the United States who has you know found libel for or been found guilty of for sexual assault. Like like there's yeah.
SPEAKER_13When did when did Karen for the families come into the the picture for this this particular party?
SPEAKER_10Why don't we start prosecuting some folks in the Epstein files? How about that for the family? Let's do that.
SPEAKER_12Come on, come on.
SPEAKER_11Anyway, so but then here we go.
SPEAKER_06To encourage you to be activated. The music's changed from discern, read your word, hold your family tight, get activated. Let's be the soldiers that we signed up to be for the kingdom. And secondly, be encouraged because God is the victor.
SPEAKER_12And we don't disagree with every knee will bow, that God is the victor, he will win. It's just so interesting that when like your side wins, yeah, you say, Romans 13, bow the knee to him. Uh bow to the knee to the uh our our leader. And when it's not your side, you're like, hey, it's okay, God's time to fight.
SPEAKER_08Get ready to fight. Don't worry, the Lord still wins.
SPEAKER_11That voice, I don't know what voice that was, Malcolm.
SPEAKER_08Don't lose hope, man.
SPEAKER_05Lord is still on the throne. Is that Malcolm's force, Frank? Or just like generic white guy voice.
SPEAKER_08The Democrats may be headed to the White House, but the Lord is still on the throne.
SPEAKER_05I want us to always have a segment where you do this voice.
SPEAKER_04What is this? Amen.
SPEAKER_08It's almost like Texas may be purple, but the Lord's blood was still red. Now that's what we've heard.
SPEAKER_13That that's been going around.
SPEAKER_12Now, was the Lord's blood still red when Red was in charge? Uh so that that that's that's from Force Frank.
SPEAKER_09Um I laughed far too much at that.
SPEAKER_12Um here here's here's another uh Christian influencer's response to this. This is Allie Beth Stuckey. She wrote the fantastic book Toxic Empathy. Because you know what we we need less of in our world is empathy.
SPEAKER_01And uh we can put to the side for a second his horrifying politics and the fact that he supports the unfettered taxpayer funded right to abortion through all that months of pregnancy. We're talking about the poisoning and dismemberment of little babies inside the womb. We can put to the side for a second the fact that he has said on multiple occasions I love trans kids.
SPEAKER_12We'll stop with the we'll come to first of all we'll come to the trans part here. But the the part about ab abortion here that she's so upset over, um I just I would love to see that same type of outrage towards Trump who and the GOP, like the the the GOP senator who was going against uh uh Abdul El Sayyid right before the election said, like, hey no, it's it's up to the women to choose. You're like, where was the outrage there? Where's the outrage over we have these these pills
Heresy Claims And Gospel Talk
SPEAKER_12that are being sent federally and because we said no, it's we're gonna leave it to the states, but if you can order these pills federally uh for abortion, where's the outrage? Like more abortions have got up under Trump every single time. Like every single time Trump has been in office, the abortion rate has gone up. Where is that outrage? And then she starts saying, you know, that Hal Rico, because he says uh he loves trans kids, uh let's keep going. I hope she gets it.
SPEAKER_01We can just put all of that to the side for a second to focus on the most important fact that James Halrico is a heretic.
SPEAKER_12And we'll talk about the heretic. So she's saying that James Halrico famously said he loves trans kids.
SPEAKER_10And Which is I would hope he does. I don't think we're not gonna do it. They keep going against this. I hope we all do.
SPEAKER_12It keeps being said that it's like this was a negative about him. That I'm like, do you not love anyone? Like, I aren't we supposed to love everyone, including and I think that what was his point is kind of saying specifically I you know to I love trans kids. And now I I I'll disagree with James Taler on on a host of things, but saying you love trans kids is not the same as endorsing or forcing it upon people. The the way the rhetoric during all of these and uh during all of these the the uh lead up the propaganda that was coming out was your kids are gonna go to school and teachers are going to trans your kids. Like as if like teachers are getting their funding cut so much that like they can't buy their own pencils, they're not gonna go perform these surgeries.
SPEAKER_09And factually, for the for the Tao Rico, for the for the um the uh especially like the transitioning kids thing, like it's for for him, this was a like basically it was a Republican attack strategy because he uh because he kind of went back and forth as to whether whether or not to classify uh parents who uh like uh parents who advocated for this for their for their kids, whether whether or not that was classified as abuse. Like the fact that he kind of went back and forth as to whether or not to like call that legally abuse, his his his reticence to use that language was then used in these attack ads to say clearly this is like all the all this stuff. And I'm just like, why why do we keep playing these games? Oh my gosh. But he's a heretic. I want to hear why he's a heretic. Oh, good. Here we go.
SPEAKER_01And if you or anyone in your life believes the false gospel that James Tallerico both believes and preaches, then you're going to hell.
SPEAKER_13You are going to hell. All right. Does she say what the false gospel is?
SPEAKER_01James Tallerico is a universalist. He has said on multiple occasions that he believes that all religions of love share the same potential truth. He said that Jesus was a radical feminist campaign. is advertised with this idea of flipping tables. So Talarico has compared himself to Christ. Reducing Christ to this political progressive LGBTQ activist. Now Jesus is God, Jesus is savior. But James Halerico doesn't actually believe that. He doesn't actually believe the gospel that Jesus himself preaches that the Bible teaches.
SPEAKER_12And so what would you say the gospel is?
SPEAKER_01So if you are applauding the furthering, the popularization of the institutionalization of a false gospel that if believed will send someone to hell, what are you doing? What are you doing?
SPEAKER_07What are you doing? Yeah, what are you doing? What are you doing?
SPEAKER_09So I you know, I think Tish uh Tish Warren put out an article about this. Oh, yeah. Like uh about but like part of it is like I'm not uh uh uh okay. Uh I'm gonna be careful about how I articulate what I'm about to articulate.
SPEAKER_12Um just keep speaking and I'll just get this.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, great.
SPEAKER_11Malcolm said. Oh, wait, that might be me, you cussing. I don't know.
SPEAKER_05Uh well, what do you think? Okay, all right. You think about what you and what restraint you need to say.
SPEAKER_12The I just think they they have this view of him that like they disagree with some policies and they've made it into his into that he is a a heretic. And we talked about this on other episodes of um what makes someone a heretic? That's such like a uh this extreme claim for things that you might disagree with on on some uh things like this. Oh and the fact that he says that there like that um Christianity and Islam and Judaism share the same root. I'm like, well, there's like there's historical roots. Abrahamic religions, there yeah, there's so that I think there are things that that was my sure I think hope charitable understanding of of him on this. Um now that we could if I I I don't know where he stands fully. I think uh he did make some connections on maybe some universalistic lean lean leaning things that I'll disagree on. Also, am I gonna say that like like his message that we'll end with um and the way he goes about and holds himself is like so much worse than what we got from Trump? Did you see Trump's interview with Ross Dalphit on Twitter?
SPEAKER_03Oh, sure did. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_12And that like he's like, I cannot forgive my enemies. I'm like, this is what we've been living under for the last 16 years.
SPEAKER_09Like, is it is is is Alibeth telling us that like we shouldn't vote for heretics? Because Great Because I mean I I like I love that stance. Uh but like but that exposes many more people than I think she would than I think she would like. Um so I just I just want to oh before we get to And there's a sense in which I also there but then uh but then also you know I don't I don't like that criterion because um there are there are Muslims, Jews, atheists, and others who can govern well.
SPEAKER_12You didn't know you didn't hear about this though. What did the
Islamophobia Rhetoric And Old Fears
SPEAKER_12republic is over because Muslims are now in office? Dang it. This is from uh MAGA pastor Jack Hibbs. Dang it.
SPEAKER_07The republic ended on Tuesday. It will prove to be a historic election because we the people decided to embrace no longer a constitutional republic. We the people embraced something that is unthinkable. And to be honest with you, I would like in the spirit of the Bible, I would like to be like Nehemiah. I would like to find every Christian who didn't vote, grab them by the beard, throw them out into the street like Nehemiah did, and beat them up. That's that's what Nehemiah did. Like the cheering of the conversation. Why? Well, I'm gonna show you why. 255 Muslims were elected to office in the United States of America on Tuesday. Ladies and gentlemen, those of you who didn't vote, you voted. 255 Muslims who cannot swear allegiance to the Constitution. It is forbidden in Islam. What they must swear allegiance to Sharia law, which is a completely different government. On Tuesday, the United States of America said no.
SPEAKER_12Again, I just feel like no one's charitable in their descriptions of people you might disagree with. Oh dear. That they cannot swear allegiance to the Constitution. You know, as Christians, there are things that I don't swear allegiance to. I would say that we should have that as our ultimate allegiance, as Jesus. That's true. And there are things you can say, like, and I will serve this this country, um, however it may be, or you serve this this church or your job or whatever. And again, this is not me saying I'm the you know the big Muslim fan, big you know, big Islam guy. Like that's that's my number one thing. But the fact that they can't serve at office does not make any sense to me.
SPEAKER_10That's pretty wild.
SPEAKER_12You're saying I would rather Islamophobia I would rather Ken Paxton corruption over someone here. This is like uh uh what was the guy, the the senator uh Mormon guy?
SPEAKER_10Um uh Romney.
SPEAKER_12Romney. Again, we would disagree with him, but he was pretty upstanding um dude that you I think did I I I'm not gonna be a big Romney guy. I'm not saying I'm advocating for everything.
SPEAKER_09No, but I mean this is the kind of fact, this is the kind of anti-Catholic sentiment that JFK had to deal with um when when everybody made the argument, it's like, no, we can't let we can't let Catholics, we can't let Catholics in the government because their allegiance is primarily to the Pope. And it's like it's it's all this. Abdul quoted that. It's that kind of. Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure he did. Because this is a I mean when when the clan was re was reborn in the early 20th century in its most popular instantiation where there were millions of clan members across the country, um they one of the primary elements of their identity was that was that the United States should be a Protestant, native-born white nation. And that's what made it so popular. Like those I like those ideas that fundamental to even this nation's identity is a particular kind of Protestantism, a particular kind of cultural whiteness, and uh um, and whatever it means to be quote unquote native. When they say native born, they don't actually mean like indigenous people. Right. Um and so like, but that I mean, you there's a there's a great uh great book called Um, I think it's called the Gospel, The Gospel According to the Clan, um, that tells this, that tells this, um, that tells this story. Um the tells the story of this of this history. But you know, it's something for us to be sensitive to. All this all this rhetoric is not is not new.
SPEAKER_12Yeah.
SPEAKER_09It's not new.
SPEAKER_12And I just think just to contrast what we've heard, like the it's the end of the republic. Um, you this person's gonna, you know, we're we're tearing down the fabric of society and in America. Um we're going to we're heretics going to hell. Like, all of this. And then you hear this acceptance speech from James Tallerico.
SPEAKER_00Hate can't build a but what hate can't do love can't love cutting out love love can turn a student into a scholar. Love it. Love
SPEAKER_09Sorry, people, technical difficulties.
SPEAKER_12Anyway. You can go check out. We'll we'll put the link there. But you just you hear him saying, hate can't teach a child to read, hate can't build a future, but what hate can't do, love can. Love can turn a student into a scholar, love can turn a closet into a nursery, and we didn't win this race by alienating our neighbors. I I think what he is doing in uh along these banners everywhere uh is saying love thy neighbor. Um it's it gives me I want to be careful because um I don't want this to be like, uh, now we have a bright future.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_12But I just think like this is a a politic that I can say is is is uh one that I'm much uh happier getting behind than the consistent politics of hating each other and of devaluing when he was asked about you know his his opponent, Ken Paxton, he says he's a child of God. When he's asked about you know Trump, he's like, Oh, I think I could work with him. I think he's he's been a great new businessman. Like he's he consistently looks to to embody that that that love thy neighbor, which is one of the two greatest commandments. So if people keep throwing you know slurs towards him and he keeps doing that, I think it's going to win people over, hopefully, um slowly. Um but also hopefully it'll change our our way of
Love Thy Neighbor Versus Panic
SPEAKER_12of interacting here. So uh some shocking things going on around um these these last couple parts. But you know, we're not here to discuss just terrible tweets, Malcolm. I know, I know. You're finally ready for the most important part. What are you laughing at?
SPEAKER_09No, I'm I'm I'm just thinking back to the whole the like the really inflammatory comment of transing your kids. I'm just I'm just like I like.
SPEAKER_05I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We can keep going there. No, no, no. My kid went to school. I want to talk about Jesus.
SPEAKER_08Let's talk about Jesus, please.
SPEAKER_12Alright, so before we talk about Jesus.
SPEAKER_08Oh no. Oh, what else? What else, Slim? What else?
SPEAKER_05You made me think about it.
SPEAKER_08Okay, what, Slim?
SPEAKER_12Did you see how that thing backfired on uh the those flyers that went around uh the state of Texas?
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_12And it was it was proven that it was uh written by uh it was the these these Texas trans and LGTQ student resource guides, and it was proven it was written by Republican Women's Group. This fake flyer that went around. And I I I can attest, my my kids, they've never talked about trans before, but because there's so many ads on TVs and during college football, they're like, they seem to be thinking stuff's happening at school, and so then they're asking about trans stuff.
SPEAKER_13They're like, is this a problem?
SPEAKER_12The Republicans have brought it up to be a problem. Like, wow. Isn't that wild? My goodness. Uh all right. Well, let's talk
Returning To The Nicene Creed
SPEAKER_12about healthier things. Great, the Nicene Creed, yay! Yay, uh, so we we've gone uh decent way through now. Uh we believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible, in the one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of the same essence as the Father, through him all things were made. That's where that's where we've been. But for for today, we read For us and for our salvation, he came down from heaven, he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, was made human, he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, he suffered and was buried. We're gonna stop there.
SPEAKER_10Ooh, okay, that's a lot.
SPEAKER_12Uh and his death uh as our our focus here today. So, Malcolm, uh, we're finally at the passage where I think the beginning of this, we said, what's the one line in here that you look forward to? And uh that for us and our salvation. Remind me why this is uh one of your favorite lines.
SPEAKER_09Um so I love that line specifically because I mean, and there are a few ways to there are a few ways to interpret it. So uh so is this for us and for us and for our salvation. Um uh he came came down came down from the heavens and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. Uh you could see, I don't I'm just looking at the for us and for our salvation part. You could see the for our salvation part as just a specification of what it means that he did this for us. Um I see it actually as uh as distinct. So basically it's saying saying two things, like he does it for us and he does it for our salvation because um because I and this is and this is and this is the question that I was this so this is my one of my, I guess I'll say controversial theological opinions.
SPEAKER_12Uh oh.
SPEAKER_09Um is this the uh the stump question?
SPEAKER_12Yes.
SPEAKER_09So the the question did not mean to do that. This is a question. There there have been a few debates in Christian history along these along these lines, but the question is, if Adam had not fallen, would the sun have would the sun have taken on flesh? And it's one of these questions that like it's one of these questions that you can't that you can't answer, but it does but it does reveal what some of your base theological assumptions are. So um my so my thing is if you say that if Adam had not fallen, then the son would not have become incarnate, um you I I think you run the risk of framing the incarnation primarily as a response. So um so so so the Lord does this like basically we sin and then the Lord kind of figures this out as a um as a response to this thing that we did.
SPEAKER_12Let's go into the uh oh what's that now I'm thinking on the fly, which sucks. Um the what's the fancy theological words of uh Yeah, it's a this is this is infralapsarianism versus super super superlapsarianism.
SPEAKER_09Yeah. So this is which one's which? So uh super so okay, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_11You you keep talking, you keep talking all the time.
SPEAKER_09You'll look it up. I'll I'll remember it at some point. Um and like, and so like there are many good arguments for saying that the incarnation is a response. A lot of the ways that the scriptures uh refer to why Christ dies and why Christ takes on flesh is specifically to save us from uh is to save us from sin. Get that. Um but there are also a number of theologians in the history of the church who are dissatisfied with that because um, and and and one of and my favorite theologian is one of them, uh Maximus the Confessor, because when Maximus reads texts like Colossians 1 and reads things like the entirety of creation was made for Christ, um one the place that he takes that and a few others do too is that is that even if Adam hadn't fallen, Christ, the the Son of God still would have still still would have done this because it's not just Christ does not just take the the Son does not just take on flesh in order to save us. He does, he does do that. But the whole purpose was also to kind of complete what what what what was his plan for humanity from the very beginning. So when when God created us, he he created us in order to be able to participate with him in the in the divine life. Uh Irenaeus, one of the one of the one of the church fathers of the of the second century, um and and and others will say this too, is that like if Adam had like if Adam had done his job, uh humanity would have uh there there there there are I don't want to uh frame this without without uh quoting it directly. Um just that there there was a there was a job that Adam was called to do that had he had he done it, he would have been, you know, he would have he would have been shaped into Christ-likeness. Um but he didn't. And so and so and so even that uh the language that Paul uses of of first and second of first and second Adam, um like these are these are proper representatives of uh of humanity. But one of the things that I that I think that this this opens up a horizon is that Christ's intention is was not just to remedy a particular situation, it was to usher us into future glory. And and and and now and that was always God's that was always God's intention, not just to solve a problem that we created, yeah, but to but to actually fulfill what was his goal from the very from the very beginning. And so, um, and so so so so so he comes so he comes down, is in is incarnate of the of the Holy Spirit and the virgin and the virgin Mary, just an affirmation of the virgin uh of the virgin birth, and became man. So that's so that's that's that's interesting because those are there are two different words. So to be incarnate, that word is to be basically enfleshed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Um, and he gets that flesh from his mother. Um but that but but say that he became man is that he is uh in man, the the the uh one one could uh um one can refer to so like even that word incarnation, uh the word carnate means flesh. Or I mean in uh um uh in Spanish it's it's it's like meat. It's like you're you're the in meetment of God.
SPEAKER_11Exactly.
SPEAKER_09Um but it's the it's that same, it's that it's that same root that that that that Christ's flesh was real flesh. So this is so this is also why it's really important that it goes on to say um that he was that he that he was crucified for us, that he actually did suffer, and that he actually was that he actually was buried. These are these are anti-anti-docetist statements where docetism is this is this is this heresy that that the Son of God only appeared to be human, um, that he appeared
Would Christ Incarnate Without The Fall
SPEAKER_09to die, but didn't but didn't actually die. This is this is like um so the way that Islam frames the crucifixion of uh of Christ, Islam holds holds holds Christ as a as a prophet, but um, but a prophet of God would never die by crucifixion, because that's not like that's just like the shame of that kind of of that kind of execution and stuff, the Lord would never have one of his prophets kind of undergo undergo that undergo that kind of thing, according to that. Um but for us, that's that's like this it's the very center of our faith that no, like the Son of God did actually die a human death. Um and it and he actually did suffer, and he actually was and he actually was was buried. That's the all of that is very the it's these are these really material ways that the Lord acted out his love, his his love for us. Yeah, um, so it's really really important for us to for us to affirm.
SPEAKER_12Uh you wanna you wanna hear the the infra supra lapsarian?
SPEAKER_09Uh because there are actually two forms of infra and supra lapsarianism. They're two different anyway, but yeah.
SPEAKER_12So it's the the decree of election and reprobation or the decree to create the world and permit the fall. Super lapsenary supralapsarianism, supra meaning above or before, and lapsa meaning fall, um, is the position which holds that God's decree to save is logically prior to his decree to create the world and permit the fall. Infralapsarianism, on the other hand, insists that God's decree to save is logically after his decrees related to creation and the fall. Infra meaning below or after. Um so both positions are well attested, uh, though infra-lapsarian would be more calm.
SPEAKER_10Is the majority, yeah.
SPEAKER_12Um, and so would you but this also feels like this this uh isolates it to that like this doesn't seem to be answering your question of like it's a different, it's a different well so like the the uh and the question about the the question about the incarnation that debate also goes under that um uh because like it's it's about this is the whole thing, like it's about like the logical order of God's decrees, which is largely a reform.
SPEAKER_09Like that's a reformed conversation.
SPEAKER_12That's a reformed conversation. Very reformed.
SPEAKER_09Which is what I'm talking about is not a reformed conversation, but like the the reformers, yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_12I'm thankful for some reformations, sure, sure, sure.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, um, but uh, but yeah, but this is what I'm so there's a that's that's that, but there is a there's also infralapsarianism and super lapsarianism in in Christology, which is what I'm talking about here. So a a superlapsarian Christology has been um has been summarized by many as saying incarnation anyway. Basically, regardless of what we regardless of what we've done, the son of God would have would have become incarnate anyway. I and I am uh I am deeply sympathetic to that, to that, to that view. I don't think the incarn I don't think the incarn I don't think the incarnation is contingent upon sin. Yeah. Um I think it I think this is the the extent to which this is a cosmic expression of God's love for us, I think he would have done it anyway. Like there's not like there is no there's a paragraph from um From Maximus Confessor, that I was that I'm thinking about because it's it's is a significant part of this of this book that I'm writing right now that's kind of reflecting on this. But there are a number of Christian theologians that like when they really considered how crazy the incarnation is, and also uh in Colossians and talk when when Paul talked about how like everything is for Christ, they're like, oh, like this is actually like what happens in the incarnation and the life and death and resurrection and resurrection of Christ is actually like the axis on which the universe turns. Like like like like the world, once that happens, like the world is actually changed. Like, like the like it even like when because uh the the the the way that um the way that Maximus frames it, there's there's a uh there's a text uh uh in Ephesians when when Paul says that the that that the end of the ages has come. And the way that and the way that Maximus frames it is like Yeah, like the like eternity is is is can be can be can be summarized as like these two these two sets of ages. There are the there are the ages of preparation for the Son of God to take on to take on humanity, and then there are the ages for for for for humanity to be to be brought back to God. And what you see, especially in the old, like from the old testament up to the incarnation, you see like the preparation of the universe for the son of God to take on humanity. And now, now that he's done it, he has also he he has also reminded us of what our actual destiny is. And so now so now that we're in the age of the church where the Holy Spirit has been given to us and our and our future has been presented to us, now that's what time, that's what time is for. Um, like that that complete reframing of what reality is, like that's what happens in the incarnation at the cross. Um, it's not just this thing that happens because we caused a problem and like now because everything revolves around us and what we do, like that's that's why. No, it's like this when you zoom, like the fact there are some of these the some of these theologians who in taking all the scriptures together can do this like this this this zooming, this zooming out. When you zoom out and see and and and are able to see this entire picture, um it's it's wild. It's crazy. Anyway, sorry. Sorry.
SPEAKER_12This is uh it seems like it's really exciting to me.
SPEAKER_09It's just really exciting to me.
SPEAKER_12Well, for us and our salvation, I do like the the distinction and the separating of that. I think that that does convey uh you know a warmth and a heart that Jesus is came to earth for us um because he desp he deeply loves us, yeah, and for our salvation. Um and I think the the first part we've we've we've hit. Um the other part for our salvation, I think it conveys that you know something important that you know Christianity is not just this you know uh self-improvement program. Yeah. Um it you know Jesus didn't come to make us slightly better versions of ourselves. Um, he came to rescue us from something that we could not rescue ourselves from. And so he came for our salvation to to save us, not to make us saveable, but to save us. Um I think this whole thing is important. You see, you know, God is initiating, he's not standing at a distance, he's not waiting for us to get our act together, he he moves towards us. Um and I think that's that's an important part of this this this creed um that may sometimes get uh un you know not too much emphasis, you know, ink spilt on. But um the incarnation, there Jesus became human. Um the one through whom all things were made entered into the world he made. And I think I like how C. S. Lewis talks about this like you know, like a creator entering his own creation, or like an author like Shakespeare entering the play he wrote, um, except now it's infinitely more significant. Um God doesn't just know about human suffering from a distance, yeah, Jesus enters it and experiences it. And I think that is so incredibly important for us as we go through our incredibly important. And we're going, Where are you, Lord? And we can go, well, Jesus also cried out on the cross, where are you? You know, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Like we we can we can know that we are not in those pain in the in those those moments alone, that Jesus has experienced this as well. I think that that is it is critical. So I think going into why is the incarnation you know, we we asked the question last time, why did why did Jesus have to be fully God? Yeah and we said you said because he that's the only way he could save us from our sins. Yeah. Um for God to be fully God. Why does he have to be fully man? What would you say?
SPEAKER_09I would say uh because um I mean there there is a sense in which our salvation, at least the way that we're I mean, the way that we're told, because the I mean, we believe it works this way because God told us that it works this way. Um that this but because like cause the cu 'cause this is the other thing. I mean, there there is a long tradition of of theological argument about why why Christ had to be human. But what I think one of the things that I think happens in the in the incarnation is that it is revealed to us that as much as we think about the infinite distance between God and humanity, what we see in Christ is that that's not that's not the way that God wanted it to be. And also it also it also shows us that that that God and humanity are not in are not incompatible. Because
Real Flesh Real Suffering Real Burial
SPEAKER_09uh, and this was and this was something that the church had to the church had to hammer this out for centuries, um, because that specific assumption that like God and humanity are so are so different, so different, so different, so different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Um Christians recognized like, yes, that's true, but you take that too far and you deny the incarnation. Yeah. Because what we are saying in the incarnation is that divinity and humanity have come together in one in one person. Um, and also that actually what that what that also indicates to us is that God is actually calling us to a relationship with Himself that is also closer than anything that we could ever imagine. And the more we the more we emphasize, there are ways in which the more we emphasize that distance, the more we deny, uh, the more we deny what it is that the Lord has called us to. I'm gonna do this in the book, but there's a great uh in in the um in the show Vision Quest, uh, because I love Marvel. Um so it's sticky because Vision, yes, as in Marvel.
SPEAKER_11Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_09There is a uh there's a quote that uh that a past version of Vision says the current version of Vision. That's that's not too much of a spoiler. Uh but he has this line where he says, uh, you have placed me on a pedestal so impossibly high and not to honor me, but to spare yourself the effort of the climb. I said one more time. You you have placed me on a pedestal so impossibly high and not to honor me, but to spare yourself the effort of the climb. And I heard that, and I wasn't thinking in the context of the show. I mean, there's it's a powerful, first of all, this the show is brilliantly written. But but I thought about that in the in the context of my own Christology. Because some of us, when we see it, it's it's like the way we think about the um, it's like I think about that in the way that people think about the Sermon on the Mount. They put it on this pedestal that's so impossibly high. Yeah. But not as a point of honor, just as a point to avoid the kind of effort that would be necessary to think about what it actually looks like to live that way. And and and and one of the and one of the one of the re one of the reasons for the incarnation, and also why like he does that, it's it's also why he says in um in John 15, like, I I have to leave so that I can send the Holy Spirit. Like all like even his life and death and resurrection is also is also prep work for a for a for an intimacy that God is good that God would be able to have with his people following that. And so there is this, like I at least one of the things that I want to do is like I want to place that before the people of God so that they recognize how how far the Lord, like how far the Lord actually wants to take, like how far the Lord actually wants to take them. Um and it's in the incarnation that it's actually revealed to us, oh, wait a minute, like humanity can look like that? To which Jesus is like, yes, like this is the way humanity was supposed to look like in the first place. Um and so that so so that's the other thing. He had to, he had to become human to show us what humanity actually is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Um, and so, and so when we look at Jesus, we're not looking at an at an exception, we're looking at the archetype. Yeah, like we're looking at what it at what it was supposed to be. And we're looking at when actually like when we see Christ, we're looking at our future. We're also looking at what we're supposed to be. And so when we look at the apostles, like afterwards, after Jesus, when Jesus is leaving, he's like, Yeah, you know, the stuff you saw me doing, you're gonna be able to do greater stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Because he's like, I I well, I came so that you can be human in it, like in like actually so.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_12Um listen, the the two Adams uh argument of you know, Adam, the first Adam fell, and the second Adam is in Christ. Yeah. Yeah. That we are that second Adam of what we what it humanity was supposed to be.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, Christ is Christ is the second Adam. And we and and and and and in our and in our union with him, we get to like we get to be human, like truly, truly human. Yeah. Um and and obviously, you know, there are there are there are elements of this that we that we await when we as as we await the redemption of our bodies. Um, but like, but the goal is like basically humanity was always meant to be like we were all meant to be sons of sons of God by grace. Um to share in the in to share in the uh inherited blessings of God. And this is this is this is what we're told in uh uh in Romans 8, that that that that that the Spirit of God confesses with our with our spirit that we're that we're children of God and if we are children, then we are also heirs, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. If indeed we suffer with Christ, so that we might also be glorified together together with him. It's a beautiful, mind-blowing passage. I want people to be reminded of what it is that God created them for and who and who they actually are. We're
Virgin Birth And God As Mystery
SPEAKER_09heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. Woo! It's awesome.
SPEAKER_12It's awesome. Things would be very different if Jesus was not incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, but by Joseph and Mary. So what is that is that the emphasis here? Uh he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, because uh yeah, because he doesn't have a he doesn't have a human father. The the as a matter of fact, I mean he only has one father, the father. Um and and it's uh yeah, and this is just I mean, this is just flat out kind of just what the what the scriptures what the scriptures say, but it is also um but it also draws a draws attention to the fact that um uh you know there's a there are similarities between Adam's quote unquote birth and Christ and Christ and Christ's birth in the sense that both are both both both are both are miraculous acts of God um and and and in so doing like like like this is the other thing like what happens in Christ's birth is also to a certain extent a recreation of humanity like that's like that's what's that's what's going on. Um to go back to the first Adam Second Second Adam language when when we affirm the virgin birth, what we're also affirming is that like there is a new there, and this is a Maximus the Confessor quote too, that in Christianity what we see is a new way of being, a new way of being human, a way of being human that we haven't that we hadn't seen before. But but this new way was also the oldest, like the intended oldest way. The second Adam is is second is is both second in time, but also first. It's great. It's so good.
SPEAKER_12Oh, it's so good. And I think I think as Christians, we want to we want, and I think in in good motivations, share a rational view of our faith. Sure. That that it is that is it is good, it is right, we're not uh we're not irrational. Um but there are things that we need to uh r truly reconcile uh or or um affirm, and that is the virgin birth. That is something that it does not make sense. And the f if Jesus can come and and incarnate through a virgin Mary, and this is what all the the the scriptures say, so we believe it, then he can blow any box in any any category we might have. And so I feel like we always have to have this humble pose uh posture towards the text to say, uh I I had an idea of what this meant, and I have an idea of who God is, but you consistently blow up my box, and so I want to always, always uh bow before the text and you know let it teach me rather than me try to you know work the text to say what I want to say.
SPEAKER_09Also impaired impaired with that, and this is I think uh fruit of the enlightenment, but but not just the enlightenment, it's also a fruit of of of scholastic theology. Um this understanding of that that uh of kind of uh faith-seeking understanding as this kind of fundamental orientation of our faith. Like but God is but there is also a profound sense in which God is mystery.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_09And like and like there are things about God that you will not understand. There are things there like God is our relationship with God is not just one of growing kind of understanding. There is a there is a there is a there is a joy as well as kind of a trepidation of just be of just being in the just being in the presence of this God and being at least the call is to be kind of mystically united with this with this with this God. Like there are things that there are things that you're not gonna understand, and like you're just gonna like there's a sense in which you're just gonna have to be okay with that. Like we and and we and this and this is one of the things that creates, I think, many of our pastoral issues, even over the course of our lives, because like things happen and we just don't know why, and that makes us mad. And such as dogs, just like dogs attacking us. Um, and then we like demand of the Lord that he explain to us why. And we're like, what what? Like, there's a it's a little bit of hubris on our part that we assume that we need to know everything. And and and it's like it's like when or something happens to us and we come to the conclusion that God doesn't love us. And I'm like, I under I get it, I get it. Our like our feelings can be very strong and also very deceptive. One of the things that at least especially from this part of the creed, it's important for us to remember, is that if you ever question God's love for you, consider this. Consider the fact that the God of the universe took on flesh, made himself, not only made himself susceptible to suffering, but that he actually did suffer, that he humbled himself, became obedient to the point of death, and even death on a cross. I've done this before. But that, but that like the fact that he did all of those things, if the Son of God did nothing else for you for the rest of your life, he has done more than you could ever ask or think. And so, like, it's it's it's why my favorite uh Nicholas Kapasillas constantly tells us to fill our minds with the meditation of Christ. Because, because, because if you if you fill if you fill your mind with that understanding of the God who loves you, that that will then be the love and the mercy that you can extend to your neighbor because that because you have been so overwhelmed by by by what it is that God has done for you. That will also then give you the stamina to be able to go through whatever whatever spiritual attacks you will you will undergo over the course of your life. If you understand that the one who stands at your side is the one who lived, died, was raised, and now stands at the right hand of the Father for you, you will be able to go through whatever it is that the demons throw at you. Um, and that's the only way that you're gonna be able to go go go go go through whatever whatever is thrown at you.
SPEAKER_12Now it's it's not the perpetual Virgin Mary. Right.
SPEAKER_13There are them saying that, but Jesus did have a brother, James, and others.
SPEAKER_09Like I would she was looking at them with the not brothers when brothers and sisters would disagree. Uh you know.
SPEAKER_04I that's another we can have that we can have that conversation another time.
SPEAKER_11Oh goodness.
SPEAKER_08Maybe I would say they're not blood brothers. They may be Joseph's uh Joseph's for Joseph's children's.
SPEAKER_12But uh, you know, yeah, that's what I'm hoping to make fun of some Catholics on here.
SPEAKER_09Sorry.
SPEAKER_12I mean, not really, but I disagree with that point.
SPEAKER_09I mean that's fine. But Calvin Calvin believed in the in the perpetual virginity of Mary, as did as did Luther. Um so it's not just a man. It's a straw man. You know, I'm just uh you know, I'm just future. I mean, you can disagree.
SPEAKER_12Like there are a lot of Protestants, like Protestants, but whether Mary and Joseph ever got married. They didn't get married. No, that's part of it. That's part of it. Um moving on. Because I don't know where to get over it. It's okay.
Pontius Pilate And Public History
SPEAKER_12It's fine, it's fine. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate. Um, it's funny that you know Mary's a physical, you know, is a historical figure, but maybe not as well known. I mean, obviously now, well well known. But at that time, Pontius Pilate would have been extraordinarily well known. And so the fact that in the creed they put four uh or he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, I think that was in there to root this in one, like this is reality. This is not just you know uh this this magical thing happened. Um it's it's to root it in that you know you had this Roman governor, uh Jesus was uh publicly crucified under under a very particular empire in a particular moment in history. Um and so it reminds us that crucifixion uh is this you know this public method of execution, uh, where you have the the state and Roman terror um and hum humiliation uh that it are um putting it out there for everyone to see. This is what happens to people like you, and anyone who's a threat to Rome and to the the state's way of doing things, Jesus was executed by the state. And so this is important.
SPEAKER_09Okay, so and here's here's here's here's the thing about this. Like it's this thing that like if you're a Christian, like you know that you're saying this, but like the you the Pontius Pilot point of of like this actually happened, like in human, like in human history, like this is a thing that actually happened. Yeah like that, like you read all this stuff about whether it's Greek mythology or other forms of mythology where they're like this happened in like the distant past or whatever. But like people are like, I mean, it probably didn't actually happen, happen. But like this, like that that's the other thing, particularly about our faith, is that we're saying like this stuff happen, like you can even the way that Paul talked about the resurrection, he's like, you can like you can talk to people, like they saw go to this person, other people saw Jesus. Like that, like that, like that's the other thing. It's it's it's just like I don't know why, particularly in this moment, just even just the very base statement that like no, like this stuff happened. Like we don't it's it's it's also why I think it uh I guess it frustrates me that kind of when we think about the Christian faith as just this thing that we believe blindly and that's what the life is about. No, no, no, like it's rooted in action because these are things that Jesus actually did. Like these are these these are not like it the the the Christian life is not a life that's just kind of lived in your mind because Jesus didn't save us hypothetically or save us just with what he thought and what he taught. Like he saved us by doing very material things.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_09And when we and when we act out the life in Christ, we are we are doing material things because that's the way that our God operates. He doesn't just operate through story or just through inspiration or whatever. Like he did stuff. And the people who follow him do stuff. Like that. Like that just like at a at a very base at a very base level, the more that the more that we kind of turn the more that we have the temptation to kind of turn the faith into just this thing that we think. In so doing, we do a disservice to the fact that that that that that the Lord didn't just like wave a wand to save us. Like he took on human flesh. He took on flesh. He lived an actual full human life. He talked to people. He touched people like that the he the he he loved people. Like that like that's what love that's what love is. And so um and it's why the it's why the apostles press love as a love as a material commitment because that's the way that that's that's the way that God has loved us. And so that so that even just that historical framing in the creed is a is a reminder. It's it's anti docetist yes but it's also just like it's just it's the people of God saying look this stuff really happened and so it really affects the way that we live.
SPEAKER_12Yeah.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_12And then he suffered
Why This Matters And Final Encouragement
SPEAKER_12and he was buried. And so I think it's and for at least for I know this is all one big long creed but for our section here to to end with that um r reminding the end of his life um was was this you know scary moment and and you know horrific and ugly moment where the author enters the story and the characters in the story kill the author. Like he suffered, that he was whipped, that he was you know had the crown of thorns, he was spit upon, he was you know nailed to the cross where he had to bleed out and and and and um suffocate um and have people hurl insults at him and he's like the suffer part that's huge. But then also he was buried to be very clear of you know we believe he actually died and this is not a hoax of what's about to happen when we next time get to talk about his resurrection. But to I I I always end this um the conversation on the Nicene Creed and these parts of asking you know why does any of this matter today? Because sometimes when we look at you know theology and we go like oh that's interesting that you know we can have these cool infralapsarian super lapserism docetism you know conversations. But I think you've already hit it a hundred times um but I think it's what we began with was that this is for us and our salvation. The overwhelming love of Christ is very much present in this particular section here. The eternal Son of God came down for us and for our salvation. He became human was crucified suffered and was buried and I think this is what we need to to be reminded of and what as a compass for all the churches we don't need to win the culture war to have a savior. No we have one and he was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He's so great and and even to my even to my MAGA Republican friends who might be feeling discouraged like the world is crumbling down. You know there was time when people thought it was the end of the end of the story when Jesus was crucified and buried I I think to encourage us all that there there is still hope. We still have a a Lord who's sitting on his throne who's interceding for us even now.
SPEAKER_10Oh I thought that was going differently I thought you said uh Republicans can still win in two years movie so it's okay.
SPEAKER_12I mean they might still hope don't don't blow it what a way wow I went from like meaningful hopeful screw it just jam it out hey if you found any of the please uh rate review share the episode um I've been encouraging folks to have more conversations cross conversations with people they may or may not agree with online's very gracious and maybe you should uh share one of these with them to to start a conversation um we'd love for the the these opportunities to for people to hear things from a different angle uh and maybe this could be a way for that but uh we're glad you're you're tuning in with us every single week every other week however often whenever we do this podcast but uh thank y'all appreciate you guys we will see you guys in probably two weeks bye